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United States22883 Posts
On February 05 2013 00:16 xSTaRFiSHx wrote:
It is only natural for games to rival each other, though you are absolutely right about the fine line that shouldnt be crossed.
Would it be too hard to simply be an "E-Sports-Community" as much as we are SCII-Community?
:D
To the outside, we are the ESPORTS community. That's where the two should be aligned and supportive.
Internally, there's subcommunities and that's where there's bickering, because there's a perceived limited amount of resources and some jealousy. I don't think there's anything wrong with that internal bickering, until it impacts external perceptions (which it probably doesn't.)
If CoD8: MWBLOPS7x becomes the next huge thing, I have no doubt that LoL and SC2 fans will come together against that just as DotA2 and SC2 fans currently come together against LoL. And if an external force such as politicians start saying CoD8: MWBLOPS7x is too violent, then CoD8: MWBLOPS7x, DotA2, LoL and SC2 fans will come together against that.
That's why I think the forced hand holding is stupid. It all depends on the framing and at the individual game level, conflict and rivalry is natural, just as in a family. There's a line you shouldn't cross like upsetting casters/players (because you shouldn't be trying to upset anyone) but people bickering online can be a sign of health. In the case of LoL and SC2, they might be different enough that it's easy to accept both (although again, there's the limited resources thing,) but it seems clear that DotA2 and LoL are in direct competition and it's only natural to want your preferred game to win and the other to lose.
We can appreciate Wilhelm Kempff and BB King as different entities, but if they're touring the same cities at the same time and BB King played the biggest venues and gets the best record contracts, and Wilhelm Kempff was forced to play dueling pianos for tips at a bar, obviously Kempff (or his corpse) and his fans would not be favorable to that arrangement. It's easy for King, having the better arrangement, to say, "we should get along."
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b3BE52C.png)
You're an alright guy, DoA. :D
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 05 2013 01:23 Epamynondas wrote:You're an alright guy, DoA. :D
Ha. Thanks.
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I wonder how many people ( that don't work in the industry ) care about " esports", I figure most people just like their game that they play/watch and don't care about anything else that goes on. I don't think trying to throw all competitive video games together, expecting people to be tolerant and respectful of everything because " esports " is going to work. Myself I don't care much about anything other than starcraft, I tried watching LoL and I watched LG-IM win the recent IEM because I like them in sc2 but I didn't enjoy it enough to have it be something I will do again unless I'm really bored.
Doa I know you're in an awkward position because you used to be full time sc2, then moved to doing both, then moved to doing full time LoL ( until osl ) but I don't think this post accomplishes much, let people support what they want to support and vocally dislike what they dislike.
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I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that.
This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially.
If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes.
I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively  ) games.
II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
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United States23745 Posts
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS. And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Not suprisingly these blogs devolve into lol vs dota vs sc2 arguments very quickly.
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On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world.
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On February 05 2013 01:40 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS.
It's refined in the sense that it's easier for casual players. That's great. I never spoke about that however, so get your straw man arguments out of here.
And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players.
Of course it does. But it also does in bowling. My argument is that once you remove all the nearly-capped skills in LoL, it comes down to just a few things. Much less than in say, Quake. Lack of mechanical skill is a large, glaring part of that you couldn't ever deny, so I'm not sure how you can even argue this.
Edit:
On February 05 2013 01:50 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world.
Except the chess player thinks the knowledge through due to the incredibly high variation, so that's not pure knowledge. If you want to compare LoL's knowledge to chess, compare it to the first moves. And I fully agree, the first moves in chess aren't very skillful really.
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The worst of it (imo) is a lot of the bashing on LoL comes from people who haven't even played the game seriously. I tried to get a few of my friends into it (sc2's multiplayer is awful) but they got smashed so hard in their first couple games they refuse to even try again (insane learning curve). And that sucks because they have absolutely no idea what fun it is to set up the big plays and work as a team to destroy the other. And that's what I mean by playing league seriously; not just tuning into a stream this one time or getting six infinity edges in a bot game and going 20-0. There is so much more you gotta learn and understand for it to be fun.
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I agree, as someone who was heavily bashing lol before I gave it a fair chance, I really do see both sides of the argument. In fact just as I switched over to playing LoL and really cut down on SC2 I noticed DoA was casting LoL for OGN and this was nice, ( thx DoA). Back to the point, the fact is that yes SC2 is arguably a more mechanically demanding game, LoL is very demanding in other aspects and it is also a team game, which makes for some very interesting dynamics and arguably more difficult decisions to make. In SC2 you only have to worry about one brain on the other side, in LoL there are 5 so while there is less to do mechanically there is more to think about in terms of what your opponent is doing or is going to do. Also 5v5 team fights are incredibly mentally demanding, there is more going on than the average brain can compute at one time and thus you see true brilliance come out in these moments.
But the main point i want to make is that while you can argue which game is harder or more fun or whatever you like, LoL is doing things for eSports that SC2 only dreamed of and for that i think all fans of eSports, be is Broodwar or Pokemon or anything in between, should give LoL a little more respect and a little less judgement. And conversely Sc2 did things for eSports that were before unseen so LoL fans should give a little respect to the games that paved the way. They are both great games and I am thankful that I live in a time when I have access to such entertainment as a player and as a viewer.
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United States23745 Posts
On February 05 2013 01:53 son1dow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 01:40 onlywonderboy wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS. It's refined in the sense that it's easier for casual players. That's great. I never spoke about that however, so get your straw man arguments out of here. Show nested quote + And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players. Of course it does. But it also does in bowling. My argument is that once you remove all the nearly-capped skills in LoL, it comes down to just a few things. Much less than in say, Quake. Lack of mechanical skill is a large, glaring part of that you couldn't ever deny, so I'm not sure how you can even argue this. Edit: Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 01:50 spinesheath wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world. Except the chess player thinks the knowledge through due to the incredibly high variation, so that's not pure knowledge. If you want to compare LoL's knowledge to chess, compare it to the first moves. And I fully agree, the first moves in chess aren't very skillful really.
Guess we just have different opinions on the importance of mechanics vs game sense and teamwork, agree to disagree I suppose.
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Thanks for the blog, Doa. I think you just said out loud what a lot of us have been thinking for quite some time now. LoL is a more popular game than sc2 and I believe this is the reason why this community acts so childish. It's out of jealousy. And there is something I can understand in this: sc2 is, imo, a much better competitive game, therefore it feels unfair that LoL is more popular.
BUT hating on LoL is really a bad answer. When watching Iron Squid 2 Finals, I saw a guy with a big "sc2 > lol" sign in the crowd, and I was like "Why the hell would you do that?" Why be so negative? Is it really the most important thing to write on a sign? Instead of cheering for your favourite player, or even simply shout your love for the game without shitting on another one.
It makes the sc2 community look bad when you guys hate on LoL, we may have the better game, but it doesn't mean we should be hating on other ones.
PS: remember that lol is F2P, and that explains the massive playerbase, maybe tryin to get Blizzard to switch fo a F2P business model would be a better course of action than hating on LoL.
Just my two cents, sorry for the rant
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Baa?21242 Posts
The post/logic/analogy kinda broke down when you brought Wilhelm Kempff into it... =[
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Doa's wcg dota2 cast was epic
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On February 05 2013 01:40 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS. And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players.
What do you mean by "refine"? LoL did nothing but copy WC3 DotA and remove all the "anti-fun" when it comes down to mechanisms, plus to be honest that mechanisms is what makes DotA so unique. But hey, that's what LoL developers teach their community right? Let's not forget how unbalanced and burden of knowledge Invoker is! I wonder when will LoL have a proper replay system for teams to analyze their own matches...
On February 04 2013 21:13 DoA wrote:
You won’t see any LoL players switching to SC2 because they don’t feel “hardcore” enough just like you won’t see Football players switching to Hockey because Hockey players perform on ice with skates and manipulate their game object with a bent stick instead of just their body. Sounds silly, doesn’t it?
So why do you see people from DotA switching to SC2 and viceversa (BabyKnight, dSeleCT, iceiceice) and not LoL to SC2?
Finally but not least, supporting LoL doesn't mean you are supporting eSports or helping other games in eSports.
Either way, hopefully you will cast DotA again this year... right DoA?
+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 04 2013 21:23 DoA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 21:21 kafkaesque wrote:
DoA, please come back to SC2.
Sincerely,
Everyone I never left. Just didn't have a tournament to cast! OSL will be back with HotS after March. I'll be casting practice games from [DOa] Clan twice a week starting tomorrow too! 
That's awesome, I thought you deserted us.
I really like your casting; if you'd still do Proleague, like you did once or twice, I don't think I'd ever miss a match.
€: Pardon the off-topic, the debate is so tedious that I elected to ignore it.
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On February 05 2013 02:27 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 01:53 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 01:40 onlywonderboy wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS. It's refined in the sense that it's easier for casual players. That's great. I never spoke about that however, so get your straw man arguments out of here. And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players. Of course it does. But it also does in bowling. My argument is that once you remove all the nearly-capped skills in LoL, it comes down to just a few things. Much less than in say, Quake. Lack of mechanical skill is a large, glaring part of that you couldn't ever deny, so I'm not sure how you can even argue this. Edit: On February 05 2013 01:50 spinesheath wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world. Except the chess player thinks the knowledge through due to the incredibly high variation, so that's not pure knowledge. If you want to compare LoL's knowledge to chess, compare it to the first moves. And I fully agree, the first moves in chess aren't very skillful really. Guess we just have different opinions on the importance of mechanics vs game sense, agree to disagree I suppose.
Your post doesn't make sense to me. I don't think you understood what I wrote.
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On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
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United States23745 Posts
On February 05 2013 02:35 son1dow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:27 onlywonderboy wrote:On February 05 2013 01:53 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 01:40 onlywonderboy wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS. It's refined in the sense that it's easier for casual players. That's great. I never spoke about that however, so get your straw man arguments out of here. And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players. Of course it does. But it also does in bowling. My argument is that once you remove all the nearly-capped skills in LoL, it comes down to just a few things. Much less than in say, Quake. Lack of mechanical skill is a large, glaring part of that you couldn't ever deny, so I'm not sure how you can even argue this. Edit: On February 05 2013 01:50 spinesheath wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world. Except the chess player thinks the knowledge through due to the incredibly high variation, so that's not pure knowledge. If you want to compare LoL's knowledge to chess, compare it to the first moves. And I fully agree, the first moves in chess aren't very skillful really. Guess we just have different opinions on the importance of mechanics vs game sense, agree to disagree I suppose. Your post doesn't make sense to me. I don't think you understood what I wrote.
End of the day we have different opinions, we aren't going to change each other's mind, not worth arguing. Sorry if I was confused or didn't make my point clear.
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