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On February 05 2013 03:08 duoform wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:55 hoodcash wrote:On February 05 2013 02:48 SolidMustard wrote:On February 05 2013 02:43 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 02:36 Nashtak wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively  ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat. I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example? Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a businessOr he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them. tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSports confirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying. http://gamespot.com/news/riot-vp-of-esports-haters-gonna-hate-6397683
What exactly do they admit, according to you, in this interview?
This?
Weeks ago, GameSpot was given information from a number of sources that said at PAX, professional team organizations were told about exclusivity agreements with other Action RTS/MOBA games, such as DOTA 2. Organizations with League of Legends teams would not be allowed to pick up DOTA 2 teams, and organizations with DOTA 2 squads could not utilize League of Legends teams. A few days after PAX, after some community uproar, Riot stated this was not the case and organizations are able to do as they like regarding other games. Was this going to be the original policy heading into Season 3? When was the decision made to change this policy, and why the change?
This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands.
Or maybe this?
Are there exclusivity agreements set in place with different organizations regarding not running concurrent DOTA/MOBA titles at the same time? Do you see this as basic business?
Anybody could strike a deal with a league that includes a period of exclusivity. This is great for the leagues because it means they’re in high demand. And why wouldn’t they be? MLG, ESL, and IPL put on great events. Of course we want League of Legends to be in the spotlight at these events. Part of the rationale for these kinds of contracts is that it gives us the ability to have a greater influence on the spectator experience to better meet fan expectations.
Obviously killing esports #sarcasm
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On February 05 2013 03:08 duoform wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:55 hoodcash wrote:On February 05 2013 02:48 SolidMustard wrote:On February 05 2013 02:43 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 02:36 Nashtak wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat. I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example? Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a businessOr he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them. tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSports confirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying. http://gamespot.com/news/riot-vp-of-esports-haters-gonna-hate-6397683
Quoting from your link:
This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands.
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I hate Dota and I hate LOL. But what I hate most is seeing Dota players shit on LOL all the time. even in this thread I can see it happening over and over. Seriously kids, Dota is no better than LOL. Get over yourselves.
And I totally agree with the below post
On February 05 2013 02:38 murphs wrote:
It's totally ok to like SC2 and not care about other esports.
It feels like some people are trying to force feed LoL to people who just want to watch some fucking starcraft.
Fuck esports, I love starcraft and only starcraft.
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Well.... to be honest i don't see any problem with this. Imagine an ideal world where everyone was objective and open to everything. Boring . Just as in real sports people are going to like their sport more than another sport and speak their mind about it.
interesting comment section though
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On February 05 2013 03:21 LastDance wrote:I hate Dota and I hate LOL. But what I hate most is seeing Dota players shit on LOL all the time. even in this thread I can see it happening over and over. Seriously kids, Dota is no better than LOL. Get over yourselves. And I totally agree with the below post Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:38 murphs wrote:
It's totally ok to like SC2 and not care about other esports.
It feels like some people are trying to force feed LoL to people who just want to watch some fucking starcraft.
Fuck esports, I love starcraft and only starcraft.
Just for future reference there is a legtimate reason(s) for dota players like myself to dislike LoL.
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On February 05 2013 02:48 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:43 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 02:36 Nashtak wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat. I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example? Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
The reason I think I can is because I'm assuming a basic level of knowledge. Go look into what Riot tried to do with teams only having LoL players. Now, think what they're going to do if they get the power to do so. You can also look into what CGS did to esports with the growing lol.
And please, don't make sarcastic comments if you're not knowledgeable about the subject.
MrF:
Wow, your "arguments" are just thinly veiled insults, pure opinion or blatant lies, Im not going to even give your post a point by point bashing because it would be a waste of my time as you obviously aren't going to change your opinion. In fact i don't even know why I am responding as you clearly have no real idea of the truth and no real desire to find it.
A note; you are welcome to your opinion but don't tell me I am stupid unskilled hypocrite for disagreeing with you, which you did in your post if you are wondering.
Edit I am sorry I even visited this thread most of these posts are just one person bashing a game they don't like and I almost got sucked in because of this joker son1dow. GLHF LONG LIVE ESPORTS!
 ) Either re-read what I said or stop trolling, I only see insults based on straw-man presumptions. Except for the hypocrite part, you are a hypocrite if you know Riot's history and still continue preaching their incredible benefit to esports.
Hoodcash:
What is riot's strategy? Making it such that progamers have an actual salary? So the non-MC/MVP/Nestea/Stephanos/Non-eg can live conformable without having to pull rabbits out of their asses on their streams 24/7?
Read what I wrote to SolidMustard.
Easy is a term thrown around a lot with LoL. Yes it's easy at first. You buy items and take the enemy base. So is starcraft at first, you gather minerals and make marines/lings/lots and attack the enemy. It's the higher up game-play that matters.
Regarding the "so few skills part", have you ever thought about the difference of LoL vs DotA2 skills? Mana is less of an issue in LoL so you can spam more. At the same time, some DotA2 skills are STUPIDLY GAME-ENDING/BROKEN. 1-6 Enig got ult on 4 ppl? GG. 1-10 MagSven combo? GG. Enemy has a BF/Manta AM? GG splitpush.
Same 15-20 champion pool is picked at the highest level. Sometimes you get to see a Dendi Pudge, but it gets boring see a Lina/Rubick/AM/Mag/Luna/TS/SK/etc every single game.
Tl;dr, DotA2 champion skills win the game, LoL map objectives and gold win the game.
I don't like Dota for competitive play too so this doesn't matter much, but I disagree with you because the knowledge/experience/game sense required to handle that gamebreaking stuff in Dota is such a large part of the game... It remains even more flat as game if you remove that.
Yes Banelines > Marines too, o wait. What you learn going up the elo is that you learn to play b so well that your b beats their a and stomps their c. It's not rock paper scissors here. Or else the game would be decided at champion select and everyone would go select another set of champions in the next game instead of wasting 40-60 minutes.
I'm just saying the game creates such encounters and situations. I don't think they're good for competitive gameplay. Didn't say they were everything in LoL.
Delegitimizes? Seems like the amount of people lol's drawn in is beating the NHL, but idk. If we are talking about difficulty here, then ESPN would have 24/7 coverage on .... boxing. But that's not the case is it. It's about popularity, simple as that.
Think about football. Randy Moss runs really fast and catches the ball. Ray Rice puts his head down and runs downfield. In your words, that would be League. Simple, popular, and money is thrown at it. So yes, people want to see football over boxing.
I'm not going to compare boxing to American football lol. My comparison with bowling and football (soccer, I don't know american football) was about skill. Not popularity. In fact, I specifically excluded it.
League isn't as easy as you think, when you hit Diamond Elo come say that. People want to watch football over boxing. etc.
There are people in the Quake community who beat professionals solomid in League with 6 months of play or so. It is easy compared to some other games.
Edit: For the people arguing about the team exclusivity controversy... Find the Live on Three episodes on that, for example. And the GD Show episodes. Can't bothered to find them, but no, it wasn't a misshap. Riot wanted to do this, then lied once they were told this was a stupid idea. Who is to say they can't do it once they're powerful enough.
Edit no2:
In terms of who you can trust, I seem to believe Wheat, SirScoots and Slasher on this. Not because I always agree with them, but I've never had reason to doubt their facts. I think the dignitas guy from The GD Studio confimed it too.
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On February 05 2013 03:24 Shibbywan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 03:21 LastDance wrote:I hate Dota and I hate LOL. But what I hate most is seeing Dota players shit on LOL all the time. even in this thread I can see it happening over and over. Seriously kids, Dota is no better than LOL. Get over yourselves. And I totally agree with the below post On February 05 2013 02:38 murphs wrote:
It's totally ok to like SC2 and not care about other esports.
It feels like some people are trying to force feed LoL to people who just want to watch some fucking starcraft.
Fuck esports, I love starcraft and only starcraft. Just for future reference there is a legtimate reason(s) for dota players like myself to dislike LoL, also ur probably gonna get a ban.
why the hell would he get a ban? For saying dota is no better than lol? lmfao, no he won't (and if he does, well, this would mean TL is seriously going the wrong direction)
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On February 05 2013 03:26 son1dow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:48 SolidMustard wrote:On February 05 2013 02:43 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 02:36 Nashtak wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat. I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example? Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it The reason I think I can is because I'm assuming a basic level of knowledge. Go look into what Riot tried to do with teams only having LoL players. Now, think what they're going to do if they get the power to do so. You can also look into what CGS did to esports with the growing lol. And please, don't make sarcastic comments if you're not knowledgeable about the subject.
well, read the article linked by that guy who thought he was going to prove your point. The poor guy didn't actually read it and the artice proves you wrong. Riot is doing great for eSports, you have no point.
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On February 05 2013 02:20 Disposition1989 wrote:
The worst of it (imo) is a lot of the bashing on LoL comes from people who haven't even played the game seriously. I tried to get a few of my friends into it (sc2's multiplayer is awful) but they got smashed so hard in their first couple games they refuse to even try again (insane learning curve). And that sucks because they have absolutely no idea what fun it is to set up the big plays and work as a team to destroy the other. And that's what I mean by playing league seriously; not just tuning into a stream this one time or getting six infinity edges in a bot game and going 20-0. There is so much more you gotta learn and understand for it to be fun.
I agree with the first two sentences of this. However, I highly recommend you get your friends to give it another try and use mobafire guides or similar. The learning curve for LoL is incredibly easy. That's not a bad thing. At all. In fact, it's what Blizzard was trying to do: Easy to learn, difficult to master. SC2 has a much MUCH harder learning curve (though HoTS is trying to improve that). Just don't worry about jungling (or be the jungler yourself. Though it might be better to lane with your buddies) and the matchmaking system will do the rest. I came into LoL a complete noob and am now one of the better players among my friends.
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On February 05 2013 03:27 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 03:24 Shibbywan wrote:On February 05 2013 03:21 LastDance wrote:I hate Dota and I hate LOL. But what I hate most is seeing Dota players shit on LOL all the time. even in this thread I can see it happening over and over. Seriously kids, Dota is no better than LOL. Get over yourselves. And I totally agree with the below post On February 05 2013 02:38 murphs wrote:
It's totally ok to like SC2 and not care about other esports.
It feels like some people are trying to force feed LoL to people who just want to watch some fucking starcraft.
Fuck esports, I love starcraft and only starcraft. Just for future reference there is a legtimate reason(s) for dota players like myself to dislike LoL, also ur probably gonna get a ban. why the hell would he get a ban? For saying dota is no better than lol? lmfao, no he won't (and if he does, well, this would mean TL is seriously going the wrong direction)
edited
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On February 05 2013 03:29 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:20 Disposition1989 wrote:
The worst of it (imo) is a lot of the bashing on LoL comes from people who haven't even played the game seriously. I tried to get a few of my friends into it (sc2's multiplayer is awful) but they got smashed so hard in their first couple games they refuse to even try again (insane learning curve). And that sucks because they have absolutely no idea what fun it is to set up the big plays and work as a team to destroy the other. And that's what I mean by playing league seriously; not just tuning into a stream this one time or getting six infinity edges in a bot game and going 20-0. There is so much more you gotta learn and understand for it to be fun.
I agree with the first two sentences of this. However, I highly recommend you get your friends to give it another try and use mobafire guides or similar. The learning curve for LoL is incredibly easy. That's not a bad thing. At all. In fact, it's what Blizzard was trying to do: Easy to learn, difficult to master. SC2 has a much MUCH harder learning curve (though HoTS is trying to improve that). Just don't worry about jungling (or be the jungler yourself. Though it might be better to lane with your buddies) and the matchmaking system will do the rest. I came into LoL a complete noob and am now one of the better players among my friends.
Do NOT use mobafire. Most of the builds there are outdated and/or simply terrible.
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On February 05 2013 03:21 Antyee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 03:08 duoform wrote:On February 05 2013 02:55 hoodcash wrote:On February 05 2013 02:48 SolidMustard wrote:On February 05 2013 02:43 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 02:36 Nashtak wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat. I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example? Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a businessOr he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them. tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSports confirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying. http://gamespot.com/news/riot-vp-of-esports-haters-gonna-hate-6397683 Quoting from your link: This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands.
Exactly my point. According to Scoots, Rileno and others, Riot intended to do it but when the shitstorm ends "it was never policy".
At the end of the day you believe in what you believe. And knowing Riot and what they have done in the past AND ALSO adding the old VP of CGS to Riot I have absolutely no doubts they tried it...
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On February 05 2013 03:33 duoform wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 03:21 Antyee wrote:On February 05 2013 03:08 duoform wrote:On February 05 2013 02:55 hoodcash wrote:On February 05 2013 02:48 SolidMustard wrote:On February 05 2013 02:43 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 02:36 Nashtak wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat. I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example? Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a businessOr he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them. tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSports confirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying. http://gamespot.com/news/riot-vp-of-esports-haters-gonna-hate-6397683 Quoting from your link: This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands. Exactly my point. According to Scoots, Rileno and others, Riot intended to do it but when the shitstorm ends "it was never policy". At the end of the day you believe in what you believe. And knowing Riot and what they have done in the past AND ALSO adding the old VP of CGS to Riot I have absolutely no doubts they tried it...
Even if that was the case, I fail to see what would be the problem, though, all sports are ran like businesses (because guess what? they are) so I don't see why it should be any different in esports.
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On February 05 2013 03:37 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 03:33 duoform wrote:On February 05 2013 03:21 Antyee wrote:On February 05 2013 03:08 duoform wrote:On February 05 2013 02:55 hoodcash wrote:On February 05 2013 02:48 SolidMustard wrote:On February 05 2013 02:43 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 02:36 Nashtak wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat. I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example? Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a businessOr he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them. tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSports confirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying. http://gamespot.com/news/riot-vp-of-esports-haters-gonna-hate-6397683 Quoting from your link: This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands. Exactly my point. According to Scoots, Rileno and others, Riot intended to do it but when the shitstorm ends "it was never policy". At the end of the day you believe in what you believe. And knowing Riot and what they have done in the past AND ALSO adding the old VP of CGS to Riot I have absolutely no doubts they tried it... Even if that was the case, I fail to see what would be the problem, though, all sports are ran like businesses (because guess what? they are) so I don't see why it should be any different in esports.
So you are basically supporting what CGS did back in the day? And honestly... that went wonderful right?
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On February 05 2013 03:33 duoform wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 03:21 Antyee wrote:On February 05 2013 03:08 duoform wrote:On February 05 2013 02:55 hoodcash wrote:On February 05 2013 02:48 SolidMustard wrote:On February 05 2013 02:43 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 02:36 Nashtak wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat. I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example? Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a businessOr he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them. tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSports confirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying. http://gamespot.com/news/riot-vp-of-esports-haters-gonna-hate-6397683 Quoting from your link: This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands. Exactly my point. According to Scoots, Rileno and others, Riot intended to do it but when the shitstorm ends "it was never policy". At the end of the day you believe in what you believe. And knowing Riot and what they have done in the past AND ALSO adding the old VP of CGS to Riot I have absolutely no doubts they tried it...
So, you were first saying that the VP confirmed it, who didn't, as you can read in the interview; and you also acknowledged just now. So, your point is invalid and has no base.
You know nothing about Riot, as you just proved, so please, stop with these "what they have done in the past" bullshit.
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I have no problem about LoL and MOBAs, nor do I know anything about those games. However I personally found it annoying that more and more sc2 personalities/organisations are trying to shove those games down my throat.
I agree that there's no need to hate on other games that you have no interest in, but on the other hand the scene also needs to realize that not everyone can enjoy both games at once.
I think I'm not alone when I say that I like to be selective about the information/news I receive on a daily basis. When the twitter account I made specifically to follow sc2 feeds are getting increasingly full of LoL/DOTA news then I think as a consumer and as a fan I have the right to be annoyed.
I also think that shows need to label/position themselves more clearly on where they stand. When I tune in to SOTG, ITG then I expect mainly sc2 contents, whereas when I tune in to LO3 then I expect mixed contents. In this regard, The Pulse seems to be a bit confused on where they stand.
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two things:
one, you can't compare sc2 and LoL they just are not the same type of game, the x is better than y argument is invalid because of this.
two, I don't play LoL or even understand what is going on if I watch it, but it hard to knock it when people are quitting Sc2 for LoL, I have yet to hear anyone going the other way around. The numbers/viewers they get is amazing. I think after HoTs comes out Sc2 will get a bounce in viewers but LoL keeps getting bigger and bigger, clearly they are doing something right.
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Seeing this hostility towards League made it easy for me to switch from me playing both games to exclusively lol. Everybody complains that the LOL community is terrible and it isn't. Sure game to game is more difficult, because your in a stressful situation with 9 other people, of which 4 depend on you for their success. This leads to some games getting a little out of hand, but it also has this whole other dimension of communication being probably the top skill in the game, something that you do not even need to be a starcraft player. The games require very different skillsets, yet SC2 players are still dicks towards LOL. I enjoyed playing and watching SC2 for the first year after it came out and still watch a bit of GSl here and then, but the dicks drove me to a game thats is much more enjoyable with friends (you can acutally play and compete with them), is more enjoyable to watch (co-ordinated plays and strategies with multiple people invovled are more exciting for me) and for me is the better game. I still respect SC2 a lot, but if your a dick and hate of league and its players, you have deserve no respect. Thanks for this post DOA.
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On February 05 2013 02:55 hoodcash wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:48 SolidMustard wrote:On February 05 2013 02:43 son1dow wrote:On February 05 2013 02:36 Nashtak wrote:On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote:I'll try to keep this brief and concise. 1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games. 2) LoL is easy. a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad? b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that. c) It very mechanically easy. d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow. e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult. f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage. The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply]. 3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all? 4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid. You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat. I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example? Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
For fucks sake, that wasn't a rumor, that was confirmed by several teams. The teams went public because it was in their eyes unacceptable. This actually happened. They even tried to cover it up and then several teams stated "no, this wasn't an accident, it's what you told us". I don't care about the rest of the discussion, but at least get your facts straight.
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I think this statement is made time and time again - but I don't see why you can't state it once more. Some parts were a bit too much of a stupidity check and almost felt immature, but as I said - you as an eSports profile made a positive statement about the possibility of united growth of eSports without actually having to like every part of it.
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EPT
