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On January 18 2013 01:49 zarepath wrote:I should think that me being Mocsta's #1 scum target during N1, when he thinks he has control of town, in addition to his constant following-up on his case of me with multiple other people during D2, should clear me. Note that Spag was one of the only people to really back Mocsta's case on me, and while he did so, he defended Mocsta from Sn0: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391615¤tpage=35#698You're entitled to thinking my N2 contributions are scummy, but it's still a lot more helpful of a contribution than over half of town has contributed over N2. My reads are more of myself thinking out loud trying to reason things through -- it's true they're hypothetical, but they outline each possibility and illustrate why I think each person is worth scrutiny.
And what the fuck is this? Let’s disregard the horrible start logic, the bit in the middle where he says I defended Mocsta from Sn0:
I can’t even remember backing a case on you by Mocsta, though I imagine I had reason. The bit I’m really interested in is the link, and your description of it: “he defended Mocsta from Sn0”
In what way was the post you linked implicating me in anything? I was FUCKING RIGHT. Look how dead this thread is. You are being a moron. I am allowed to acknowledge the good someone does in order to further my already transparent agenda. The fact that he later flipped red (accompanied by the thread shuddering to a grinding halt) is irrelevant and your conclusion that I am scum because I was insightful is non-sequitur.
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If people think my voteswitch was scummy. Can anyone give me a better course of action that I could have taken with the information available and my playstyle, from a presumed town perspective?
+ Show Spoiler +
I assume you're going to say that I should have justified my vote then and there, and that not doing so is scummy?
Why is it scummy? What possible scum intention could I have? I am so sick of my intentions being misinterpreted just because they are not entirely standard. THIS GAME IS NOT SPOT THE DIFFERENCE. For something to be scummy, it must have a scummy intention. Going back to bed was not good for my agenda regardless of whether I am town or scum. I was tired and half asleep. A Town me would see that he could make one of his preferred lynches happen and be content. A Scum me would need to stay awake in order to guide the lynch. While conventional logic dictates that a scum doesn't care who gets lynched, this is wrong. A scum needs to make sure that scum is not lynched. A Town has the fallback of the possibility he was wrong when he does not get the lynch he wants [as demonstrated by this very game]. STOP HITTING ME BECAUSE I'M DIFFERENT OR LAZY, HIT ME BECAUSE MY ACTIONS SPEAK OF SCUMMY INTENT.
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Looks like spag exploded onto the thread. But first Zeb
On January 19 2013 21:40 zebezt wrote:
The whole concept of too scummy to be scum makes no sense. Even if you don't get voted out immediately, you will eventually.
Your point 3 defense is basically that you don't know. How is that a defense?
Your point 4 defense was that it was clear shz was going to switch because of some comments he made. That's hardly a guarantee. Many people say accusing things about others, but these don't mean they will switch.
Town should vote. You sound like you are very experienced. You should be able to read the cases and decide wether or not they should be good. Refusing to vote = scummy
Eventually maybe, but if there are more scummy people on the table no. He is a smurf remember, he may have been playing a normal mafia this was a throw away game for him do you think for two seconds he cared about this game?
How about because I'm not a freaking mind reader? I was implying wifom in more than many words.
Refusing to vote does = scummy in normal situations. But going into a thread, discovering lynch is on one hour and not having the time to work out who is town or not isn't. You are twisting the situation, If I had voted troske you would have gone totally scum he walks into the thread and votes trotske. If I had Voted Mocca you could have screamed bus.
On a side note it could take ages to though spags stuff....
Well I have gone though it but it will take a while to process. One major thing I am not buying though that you seemed to phase over is that you "confirmed shz town" then wanted a lynch troske to "confirm him town" This doesn't make sense at all. If there was someone who you weren't sure off at best you could have lynched someone "related to him" to maybe gain the most information possible but even then it would be a wifom move. You seemed to want to lynch for information not for actually lynching scum.
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ebwop: He is a smurf remember, he may have been playing a normal mafia at the same time.
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and for that above point kush was certainly switching accounts....
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[quote] [QUOTE]On January 18 2013 12:07 JacobStrangelove wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 15 2013 02:19 Spaghetticus wrote:
(3) - OmniEulogy is confirmed town. He has changed his meta from scummy to actual pro-town. This is a read from a more complex dialogue outside of the game, but put simply:
- he has played deliberately scummy in previous games in order to give himself room to work with when he actually rolls scum
- I warned him that while I have been avoiding him in game I had decided to tunnel him as I could no longer take the bullshit, along as communicating several reasons for why a better player would play to the best of their ability every game
- He improved his style when he did not need to. I was not in the game to tunnel him, and if he rolled scum he would have had three games worth of established scummy play to work with, all but guaranteeing him a scum victory if he rolled scum.
If he rolled scum he would be under zero pressure to change his style and we would be looking at a clusterfuck of WIFOM and OMGUS instead of the rational play he is demonstrating.
[/QUOTE]
While this turned out to be true I think this might have been a scum slip, even with all the evidence town are normally far more careful with reads. For example with this evidence I would say most likely town and would think of the possibility of having improved his play to appear more town not remaining scummy to appear more town. (although I haven't seen him play before I don't think?)
Also in general Spags meta is way off... he is the only other australian and while he has given reasons for being less active you would have thought he would have at least chimed it (it's almost 1pm Australian time)
So in other words his meta is off, he isn't posting much (which is a separate issue from meta while being connected) and he isn't following though on his non LAL policy. A LAL policy is really easy for scum to talk about because it requires no evidence beside from lack of content.
Also he posted this
[quote]
I want you there on day three because you are active, and if you are scum you will slip as a result. If you downgrade your activity I will shit on you for motivated lurking. It is clear that I want you to stop wasting time being a victim, and I am not the only person with these thoughts. You are not responsible for other people lurking, but you are responsible for hiding their posts with tirades of self-pitying crap.[/quote]
Is seems he has taken up the mantle of motivated lurking.... after being so bold and aggressive against them has he realised he can't keep up?
FOS# Spaghetticus[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]
A scum-slip? Fuckoff. With this evidence you would have been wrong. I have also had the pleasure of playing two games Omni, and I have a feel for his play and mind-set. I looked at his intentions behind this massive change and saw only town motive, with zero possibility of scum short of some sort of complex (and spontaneously appearing) code of conduct. I gave you the brief version, as that was all that was functionally needed. Again, I WAS FUCKING RIGHT. I know scum have information that town do not, but again I respond with an argument based on a now familiar paradigm:
If I say something it is ignored until I am proven correct, and then I must be scum for knowing.
I do have information that you do not. I talked to OmniEulogy and you didn't (though I believe the conversation is available in the obs QT for XXXIV). What possible SCUM MOTIVE could I have for protecting a townie? He would likely still be in the game if he hadn't DCed, and I would be getting zero credit. I could make a long term play and have Omni killed day four or so, which would gain me town cred, but by reducing the number of threats townies were thinking about I would be doing town a ginormous favour in finding a scummy spag and his scummy friends. This would not be a good play, particularly since any fire that would be going onto Omni would be going directly onto me for protecting him. Your analysis of his actions was okay, as you thought him probable town, but ultimately inferior due to the depth of your probing. Your proposition that he could start acting as town while being scum is simply an inferior play when he's spent three games setting up a scummy meta. You know it, I know it, and Omni would know it.
As for me being inactive... I'm sorry for that but it was unavoidable as previously stated. I have sleep issues that have affected previous games, I am busy with obligations to my family, and I am in the middle of sorting out the next semester of university. I can't make you believe me on these things, but I am still managing to get a fair bit done, and more than some other players. The action that takes place without me is... negligible.
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EBWOP: fucked the BBcode REALLY hard. Ignore the above post.
On January 18 2013 12:07 JacobStrangelove wrote: Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 02:19 Spaghetticus wrote:
(3) - OmniEulogy is confirmed town. He has changed his meta from scummy to actual pro-town. This is a read from a more complex dialogue outside of the game, but put simply:
- he has played deliberately scummy in previous games in order to give himself room to work with when he actually rolls scum
- I warned him that while I have been avoiding him in game I had decided to tunnel him as I could no longer take the bullshit, along as communicating several reasons for why a better player would play to the best of their ability every game
- He improved his style when he did not need to. I was not in the game to tunnel him, and if he rolled scum he would have had three games worth of established scummy play to work with, all but guaranteeing him a scum victory if he rolled scum.
If he rolled scum he would be under zero pressure to change his style and we would be looking at a clusterfuck of WIFOM and OMGUS instead of the rational play he is demonstrating.
While this turned out to be true I think this might have been a scum slip, even with all the evidence town are normally far more careful with reads. For example with this evidence I would say most likely town and would think of the possibility of having improved his play to appear more town not remaining scummy to appear more town. (although I haven't seen him play before I don't think?) Also in general Spags meta is way off... he is the only other australian and while he has given reasons for being less active you would have thought he would have at least chimed it (it's almost 1pm Australian time) So in other words his meta is off, he isn't posting much (which is a separate issue from meta while being connected) and he isn't following though on his non LAL policy. A LAL policy is really easy for scum to talk about because it requires no evidence beside from lack of content. Also he posted this Show nested quote +
I want you there on day three because you are active, and if you are scum you will slip as a result. If you downgrade your activity I will shit on you for motivated lurking. It is clear that I want you to stop wasting time being a victim, and I am not the only person with these thoughts. You are not responsible for other people lurking, but you are responsible for hiding their posts with tirades of self-pitying crap.
Is seems he has taken up the mantle of motivated lurking.... after being so bold and aggressive against them has he realised he can't keep up? FOS# Spaghetticus
A scum-slip? Fuckoff. With this evidence you would have been wrong. I have also had the pleasure of playing two games Omni, and I have a feel for his play and mind-set. I looked at his intentions behind this massive change and saw only town motive, with zero possibility of scum short of some sort of complex (and spontaneously appearing) code of conduct. I gave you the brief version, as that was all that was functionally needed. Again, I WAS FUCKING RIGHT. I know scum have information that town do not, but again I respond with an argument based on a now familiar paradigm:
If I say something it is ignored until I am proven correct, and then I must be scum for knowing.
I do have information that you do not. I talked to OmniEulogy and you didn't (though I believe the conversation is available in the obs QT for XXXIV). What possible SCUM MOTIVE could I have for protecting a townie? He would likely still be in the game if he hadn't DCed, and I would be getting zero credit. I could make a long term play and have Omni killed day four or so, which would gain me town cred, but by reducing the number of threats townies were thinking about I would be doing town a ginormous favour in finding a scummy spag and his scummy friends. This would not be a good play, particularly since any fire that would be going onto Omni would be going directly onto me for protecting him. Your analysis of his actions was okay, as you thought him probable town, but ultimately inferior due to the depth of your probing. Your proposition that he could start acting as town while being scum is simply an inferior play when he's spent three games setting up a scummy meta. You know it, I know it, and Omni would know it.
As for me being inactive... I'm sorry for that but it was unavoidable as previously stated. I have sleep issues that have affected previous games, I am busy with obligations to my family, and I am in the middle of sorting out the next semester of university. I can't make you believe me on these things, but I am still managing to get a fair bit done, and more than some other players. The action that takes place without me is... negligible.
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Hurm..... there is a lot of wifom especially around mafia behavior. While I admit you had meta experience you did seem pretty sure. Also there is plenty of scum motive for protecting a townie. It's called budding. Where you suck up to a town and use their arguments and ideas for your own agenda.
Now here is the interesting part you were completely right BUT why would he change a scummy meta all of a sudden. I assume you mean he was being scummy to win holistically but from the point of view of someone that doesn't know his alignment how did you explain him suddenly stopping all of a sudden? If he is playing scummy as town then he would play scummy as town this game. Now he obviously did make a meta change to try and win a town game (not sure of results of other games) but I would assume a change in his town meta from being scummy would have him as scum as he was trying too hard to compensate while having the back up plan of his meta.
That said that is kinda a past thing the main point I want answered is the one I asked in my last post. Also I am kinda glad you are here, was getting lonely.
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On January 19 2013 01:20 shz wrote:
Spag is indeed very interesting. He plays just strange. In the beginning it was okay because he just replaced the troll and had to settle in. His LAL thing was okay, but in the end worthless as we lynched the GF on d2 with him being the most active player.
But thats over now. And I still don't get the vote-switch.
@Spaghetticus:
You said you will wake up in time for the lynch and participate. You did. Or, you were awake at least. You came in, changed your vote and went off. Why did you not post your explanation before the flip? You are a self-proclaimed god in Mafia, so why the fuck do you do something so obviously bad?
Also, confirming my last 10% of being town is not a good enough reason to lynch someone. Not that I disagree that Trot should be looked upon.
I already posted a response to this, but I think your wording and the way you came across was really shitty. You are in the happy place of being confirmed town by one action, you are a valuable if not the most valuable member we have in that your questions come not as possible scum machinations, but genuine town concern. Everyone can answer you plainly knowing they are not being lead by malicious intent.
And yet... You are applying little critical thought to the game.
(1) - Voting without explanation hurts all agendas.
(2) - I can't remember calling myself a God, but I assume you misinterpreted some banter as I entered the thread? I do remember easing myself into the game by talking myself up a little, but this should be plain for all to see. Any expectation of actually godly play in a newbie is an uncritical one on your part.
(3) - My reasons for suspecting/voting Trotske are not only that he confirms you as 100% town, though I am someone who factors in such things into his initial estimate of a person. I believe JSL stated it should only be a tie-breaker, this is very conservative and IMHO dead wrong. Trotske has very little contribution, and what he does say is generally fairly weak. He is one of my two biggest reads (the other being JSL, though I'm starting to suspect Zare), and while my post did not explain everything, it was a summary post, not a case. I feel that a lot of the misinterpretations of my content are happening because a failure of people to look at the context (as well as delve into my possible intentions).
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Spaghetticus
1. Roleclaim.
2. More scumhunting, less defensiveness
As of right now, you are the best candidate for a lynch whether you are scum or not, simply because none of what you are doing is actually helping us find scum.
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My reasons for suspecting/voting Trotske are not only that he confirms you as 100% town, though I am someone who factors in such things into his initial estimate of a person. I believe JSL stated it should only be a tie-breaker, this is very conservative and IMHO dead wrong.
Wait what do I believe? This isn't clear
On a side note the guy got back to me so I will be going out tomorrow but I should be at lynch up till 8-9 my time lynch is at 10. Not sure what time I will be getting back though.
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I'm VT.
What I am doing is helping you not lynch town, which is more urgent to me. My reads are not comparable to the 100% chance of mislynching if I am lynched. People are completely warping context and motive for an easy lynch and I believe that this is the most pertinent information I can help correct.
That said, I will now develop some of my suspicions, as I have already attended to filing the more dangerous contours of the case against me.
I will now be looking at Trotske and possibly JSL. My read on Jacob is less solid and may or may not develop strongly when I trawl his filter.
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And honestly I don't really understand the reasoning behind wanting a rolecall, but w/e.
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On January 19 2013 23:31 Spaghetticus wrote:
(3) - My reasons for suspecting/voting Trotske are not only that he confirms you as 100% town, though I am someone who factors in such things into his initial estimate of a person. I believe JSL stated it should only be a tie-breaker, this is very conservative and IMHO dead wrong. Trotske has very little contribution, and what he does say is generally fairly weak. He is one of my two biggest reads (the other being JSL, though I'm starting to suspect Zare), and while my post did not explain everything, it was a summary post, not a case. I feel that a lot of the misinterpretations of my content are happening because a failure of people to look at the context (as well as delve into my possible intentions).
Trotske's posting can be explained by him being a newbie town player. There are a couple of things that don't match up with him being scum:
- Why would Mocsta bus him day 2? After the case I made against Trotske, would the scum team have given up on life so easily and not tried to attack me? There were also other targets that they could have switched us to. Zebezt and Laguerta/JSL were under scrutiny. Mocsta would also not have gained any town cred for lynching Trotske IF Trotske flipped scum, because Sn0_Man originally called for the lynch and I made the case.
- And now we can ask the exact same question in reverse. Why would Trotske bus Mocsta? My case against Mocsta had no traction and there were juicier town targets.
Even WIFOM doesn't make sense here, because while it could be, in some situations, a good strategy to double-bus, it's stupid in the situation we were in yesterday. They could have easily led town into a mislynch (and I do declare that's exactly what they almost did), in which case we would have entered day 3 at 4-3. Yeah. We didn't know the situation, but there was a chance OE was getting modkilled with no replacement and scum team KNEW that OE was town.
I don't think I need to explain how a 4-3 ratio is stupidly more advantageous to scum than *maybe* getting a bit of town cred.
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- Mocsta would bus anyone day two. He was WIFOMing like a mad-man. He did it too much and you guys caught him because of it. His actions were calculated to cause confusion, why would he act in such a way that allows us to confirm town? He was and is a bold player, and there is not a croutons chance in hell that he didn't name/mention/act against one of his scum-buddies to create further intrigue.
- Trotske probably did not believe the lynch on Mocsta would happen (I certainly didn't). By the time it became a real possibility it was too late for him to back out without being called scummy, and he may as well rack up town cred for the lynch.
- it's not as if these were hard buses. A scum's role is not to act predictably, but to win the game. If they thought that neither target would go down (I know Mocsta left enough options open), then why shouldn't they remove themselves from the lynch is it was a reversible maneuver?
Honestly my head is getting fuzzy, and your argument is not making as much sense to me as it should. What is your fourth paragraph about? I don't see the double bus play at all, and I'm not even sure of the mislynch you refer to.
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My case on Trotske is not as impressive as I had hopes it would be. It can be summarised into three parts:
(1) - Trotske is not a noob: He isn't, he's played more games than me, and while I'm not sure why he would tell us that as town or scum (A requirement for being allowed in the game maybe?), and argument that relies on him being a noob is fallacious. A year away is a while, but it's no reason to not have posted any content by now.
(2) - Which leads into my next point: he seems to have almost made efforts to not contribute. I have offered more content despite starting two days later, sleeping 12 hours a day, and being pulled into family affairs I want no part of. He is neither leader of opinion nor a creative thinker, simply a follower of other's ideas. Somehow he has managed to fail to contribute, and this is not acceptable at this point in the game for someone that has any experience whatsoever.
(3) - This third point is more the negation of arguments used to defend him. Whatever Mocsta's plan was, it was damn erratic. People seem to be banking a lot on knowing Mocsta's intentions when they just don't seem that clear to me.
I am bone tired. I need sleep and I am no use continuing to write myself into the ground. I think I will be lynched tomorrow, and frustrating as it may be I have not the strength of character to stop it.
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Will:
(1) - Don't lynch Shz. He will likely die to NK, but if he does not you should lynch Trotske first and see where that leaves you.
(2) - Acid is also coming up as strong town. I may not currently have the mental agility at this point in time to understand WTF he is saying, but if you can understand it, it sounds like he's put in a lot of genuine effort into analysing the lynch. Such effort is not something that a scum would be required to do. It also wouldn't make sense for scum to do such an analysis and then post so sparingly. Such effort could better be used as a scum in acting as town and not furthering their cause. If Acid is lynched you better have a really damn convincing reason.
(3) - JSL. He hasn't done much. He's another "read" of mine, equal to Trotske in input, but without the deminoob excuse. He shows signs of insight, but seems to be wasting time defending himself when I am hogging all the votes, or pestering Zarepath.
(4) - Zarepath. He's active(ish) and scummy as hell. His lists are semi helpful, but they are probably his biggest contribution other than getting me mislynched with really fucking bad rhetoric. I don't blame JSL for attacking Zarepath, but I feel as though his attacks have been half-hearted and not at all real. I was actually leaving Zare alone believing that JSL was going to post a solid case, but this never eventualised, so in some way it has worked as a protection...
(5) - Zebezt. I can see the noob in this one... If you look not at all that closely you can even see when they started consulting guides/coaches and changed their game around to conform to town meta of aggressive tunneling. They don't seem to have developed the savvy required to hide their scummy behaviour, so I would go with a town read, or a "not a threat" read at worst.
(6) - Trotske. I've already made my thoughts clear on Trotske, I can't even collect enough data for a real case which should speak louder than any case I could make. I suggest looking to Acid when thinking of lynching this one. He seems to have some lynch logic that proves Trotske town that I don't really understand.
(7) - There is no seven. I'm going to bed. I'll look over you from the Obs QT,
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On January 20 2013 01:05 Spaghetticus wrote:
My case on Trotske is not as impressive as I had hopes it would be. It can be summarised into three parts:
(1) - Trotske is not a noob: He isn't, he's played more games than me, and while I'm not sure why he would tell us that as town or scum (A requirement for being allowed in the game maybe?), and argument that relies on him being a noob is fallacious. A year away is a while, but it's no reason to not have posted any content by now.
Because I don't have any skills in mafia from over a Year ago. Read my old threads if you want to see some bad play and laugh about it. Just playing games doesn't make you good at them.
(2) - Which leads into my next point: he seems to have almost made efforts to not contribute. I have offered more content despite starting two days later, sleeping 12 hours a day, and being pulled into family affairs I want no part of. He is neither leader of opinion nor a creative thinker, simply a follower of other's ideas. Somehow he has managed to fail to contribute, and this is not acceptable at this point in the game for someone that has any experience whatsoever.
This describes yourself better than it describes me, you think you are the only person who has RL problems that stop them from contributing? Just have to do the best you can with the time you have. From what I can see with the time you have you made quite a few WIFOM post's instead of trying to create a better case. This leads me to think you are very scummy indeed. Wouldn't a town want to contribute best before they were myslynched? not making bad claims that would only cause to distract from the next lynch.
(3) - This third point is more the negation of arguments used to defend him. Whatever Mocsta's plan was, it was damn erratic. People seem to be banking a lot on knowing Mocsta's intentions when they just don't seem that clear to me.
Can you explain this I'm not clear on what this means.
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Germany2686 Posts
Spaghetti, you are pulling a serious Mocsta here. But leaving your will is actually a good thing to do. No matter what you flip.
Despite playing the angry victim pretty hard, I don't like this lynch.
My favorite to lynch today is zarepath. He did nothing all day except from tunneling Spaghetti. He is also AWOL the last 24hs and why shouldn't he be? Spag is going down and he doesn't need anymore attention on him.
If nothing happens for the rest of the day, my vote will stay with him.
##Vote: zarepath
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Germany2686 Posts
I just realizied I was AWOL too for the last 24h.... I'm sorry for that.
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EPT
