http://drop.sc/273996
[G] PvZ revamped, by Asmodeus - Page 6
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SCAReaSoN
United States7 Posts
http://drop.sc/273996 | ||
ProfessionalNoob
United States75 Posts
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SCAReaSoN
United States7 Posts
Wouldnt that hard counter this build? Not sure. Im trying to find it's weakness :p | ||
Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 11 2012 16:33 SCAReaSoN wrote: Hmm, what about a infestor timing before templar? Wouldnt that hard counter this build? Not sure. Im trying to find it's weakness :p Already answered this one on the last page: When you scout infestors moving out on the map and no roaches build full walloff, and once it dies FF the gaps. The way you hold it, is by killing patiently infested terrans, saying out of fungal range with sentries and keeping all the lings out of the battle with wall/FF's untill you deal with Infested terrans. Guardian shield once the first IT's pop out of eggs. Also, make sure that you have added enaugh gateways. The way i play this style - regardless of going air or storm first - is making sure that i add more gateways then i need, and in case of attack i always have the money to warp a round of 6-8 zealots before the fight, and another round during it. Even tho, you aren't making many gateway units, keep adding gateways. If it's an all in you should also scout it in time to complete adding more cannons, as with any other all in This style is so defensive, that the only "counter" should be expanding all over the place, but unless zerg can mine more than ~60% of the resources on the map before you secure your 4th - you don't care how much money he has anyway. | ||
KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 11 2012 18:46 KingAlphard wrote: What about some kind of 3 base push before my wall and cannons on the third are completed(9:00 ca)? Roach/lings or even only speedlings. They force me to delete the nexus and I end up too far behind in economy to do anything. You don't end up too far behind. He's dalaying his tech and economy to delay your economy, but not tech, so use your advantage. Park your voidrays above his units untill he goes away and lets you expand. It's completly fine if you expand later if the zerg commits to some units. I've lost my 3rd enaugh times to know that . It may be counter intuitive, but in situations like this, play the game out, and you'll see that it doesn't really change anything if you lose your 3rd or not. That's just how it works out. | ||
HellRush
Canada68 Posts
Late game it's actually the easiest and most fun thing once you get used to controlling completly diffirent army. There is plenty of replays where i beat just that. People who make nothing but Corruptors and infestors that nuke with infested terrans. It's all about micro. Recall from fungal when you are about to lose shields - you should not move out with entire army if you don't have a mothership parked above cannons with recall ready. You have higher burst demage and better regen on shields, that's why you will come out on top in every exchange like that. So that'S your solutions to mass fungal ?? Recall out of it ? That sounds like a pretty bad idea no offense, but the amount of energy you need with your mama ship to pull that off vs the amount energy required to throw down 2-3 fungal because voidray always clump up is very 'cost inificient' . In my oppinion this strat works only because zerg just dont scout the opponent army composition lategame because they are sooo confident with their broodlord/infestor army, and they overproduce broodlords, Because if they just keep corruptors instead of Blords against your composition all they need to do is fungal away and throw a few infested terran everywhere and that gg. Mainly becauseVoid clump up and because templar even if you have lots of them won't be able to kill every Infestors, now yes you can and SHOULD always storm those infested terran twice to kill them off immidiatly before they do any dmg. But the big probleme is that you void in a big engagement wont be charged, and if they are not charged up then corruptor in equal number will win, combine to that fungals and there you have it.... | ||
tarrantius
Germany25 Posts
Also with missing aoe dmg u wont be able to deal with a simple infestor/ling counter. Zergs arent losing anything to voidrays anymore (except the overlords which are on the map like 1-2). Your complete build is made around the Zerg is playing passiv. If the zerg just playing standard timings (50 drones make some units start pressure 3rd) while pressuring infestor/4th then hit next timing before toss gets aoe then hit next timing before Blords rdy to weak the protoss timing push (Stephano killed Crank with this kind of timing) your Build dies. | ||
TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
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Kisezik
Australia70 Posts
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Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 12 2012 22:49 HellRush wrote: So that'S your solutions to mass fungal ?? Recall out of it ? That sounds like a pretty bad idea no offense, but the amount of energy you need with your mama ship to pull that off vs the amount energy required to throw down 2-3 fungal because voidray always clump up is very 'cost inificient' . It works. I'm doing it in most of my PvZ's. And feel free to watch replays if you wanna see me beating exactly what you're talking about in the second part of your post. On November 13 2012 01:18 tarrantius wrote: You wont be able to deal with any kind of pressure like most Zergs do. I defend all kinds of pushes and attacks with it. Watch the replays. On November 13 2012 01:45 TheFrankOne wrote: Do you have any thoughts on how this would play out from a 2 gate sentry expand? Yes, you do a regular stargate fallow up (you would have to find some games of Naniwa/MC/Grubby doing it if you want exact build order) and you can preassure the 3rd if you so desire, or you get a hallucination and go for storm first. 2 gate sentry expand is more tricky, because you have to punish zerg if he's too greedy, by moving out and forcing him to make units, but that's standard sentry expand stuff you should know if you use it. You can take 3rd almost as fast, because you have your warpgate fast and you can secure your expansion easly. On November 13 2012 02:54 Kisezik wrote: A good way to beat this would just go roach hydra nydus max around 12-13 minutes around the third and he'll be able to do nothing with this build. He wont even have colossus or psi storm out to deal with the hydras, and he wont have much gateway units either because of how heavily he is teching... Try that next time you meet me on the ladder. Good luck tho, cuz i will have storm in time | ||
d[s]c
United States79 Posts
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Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 13 2012 06:12 d[s]c wrote: + Show Spoiler + (Hi) don't take this offensively, because it's just an observation, but, to start; my account is currently in silver, was in gold a few times(mentioning this because some people call out, and don't take players in lesser leagues, seriously, but in this case, hearing it from such an observer, it can give more emphasis, on the obvious holes in the build/strat. Though, to be fair, the zerg user probably did a good job of responding and massing those roaches. I saw the replay 265846. It was either daybreak or cloud kingdom(they look the same)I don't know if anyone else watched and commented what I'm about to point out, which is kind of obvious, though, I think, if we know the game enough, but, in that game, when he had a huge army of roaches on your third, he ran from a pair of voidrays. which he didn't have to, and he could've just destroyed your entire third base,(including the other surrounded structures), after forcing storms, and dodging. Actually, what lost him the game, was that he ran, and let you build up voidrays, and in general, which he wouldn't have been able to deal with, his large roach army becoming useless, and occupying supply that would be corrupters or something, and game was kind of over for you at that point, when he shouldn't have ran. I'm just assuming, from reading the intro, and all, that you use this build/strategy confidently, but it won't work much. Just adding this, to further affirm/confirm that this isn't viable/strong/safe, adding along with whoever else noticed and commented. This way you don't have to continue thinking that this is actually going to work. I have, in the past, said things without knowledge, and ended up looking like a fool, in advice, and input, but I'm confident that people would agree. But I don't disagree with teching to storms mid-game, just not that fashion. Maybe you could say that the specific strat/build executed on that specific game was just a general outline of how to open, but probably not assuring to see that replay as support for this build/opening/progression. More ramifications: Then again, I you did have a decent amount of sentries to force-trap roaches to take optimal storm damage, but I saw none of that, so, yea, in scenario with you trapping his roaches all the time and storming, that's great. Him roach dropping quickly in response to seeing sentry/ht/cannon is easily accessible, so, still not really dangerous. I,d,k. I guess the early voidrays is what make's it not as great as the opening can be. If it were me, I would choose stalkers. If he wants to battle your stalkers, he has to make a decision of whether to get stormed and attack your stalkers or run, and get anti-kite attack your stalkers. Gas is simply too much for that one unit at a time, and your reproduction time for voidrays/stargate. I think robo is necessary and teching to storms is the best idea against zerg, along with mothership, but the voidray thing, I think that's a later stage appearance, if you even need it. ( kind of feels silly talking about these things, when hots would come out soon ) Nice troll, are you some sort of zerg ambassador, trying to end the revolution before it even starts? | ||
Tictock
United States6051 Posts
On November 13 2012 06:12 d[s]c wrote: + Show Spoiler + (Hi) don't take this offensively, because it's just an observation, but, to start; my account is currently in silver, was in gold a few times(mentioning this because some people call out, and don't take players in lesser leagues, seriously, but in this case, hearing it from such an observer, it can give more emphasis, on the obvious holes in the build/strat. Though, to be fair, the zerg user probably did a good job of responding and massing those roaches. I saw the replay 265846. It was either daybreak or cloud kingdom(they look the same)I don't know if anyone else watched and commented what I'm about to point out, which is kind of obvious, though, I think, if we know the game enough, but, in that game, when he had a huge army of roaches on your third, he ran from a pair of voidrays. which he didn't have to, and he could've just destroyed your entire third base,(including the other surrounded structures), after forcing storms, and dodging. Actually, what lost him the game, was that he ran, and let you build up voidrays, and in general, which he wouldn't have been able to deal with, his large roach army becoming useless, and occupying supply that would be corrupters or something, and game was kind of over for you at that point, when he shouldn't have ran. I'm just assuming, from reading the intro, and all, that you use this build/strategy confidently, but it won't work much. Just adding this, to further affirm/confirm that this isn't viable/strong/safe, adding along with whoever else noticed and commented. This way you don't have to continue thinking that this is actually going to work. I have, in the past, said things without knowledge, and ended up looking like a fool, in advice, and input, but I'm confident that people would agree. But I don't disagree with teching to storms mid-game, just not that fashion. Maybe you could say that the specific strat/build executed on that specific game was just a general outline of how to open, but probably not assuring to see that replay as support for this build/opening/progression. More ramifications: Then again, I you did have a decent amount of sentries to force-trap roaches to take optimal storm damage, but I saw none of that, so, yea, in scenario with you trapping his roaches all the time and storming, that's great. Him roach dropping quickly in response to seeing sentry/ht/cannon is easily accessible, so, still not really dangerous. I,d,k. I guess the early voidrays is what make's it not as great as the opening can be. If it were me, I would choose stalkers. If he wants to battle your stalkers, he has to make a decision of whether to get stormed and attack your stalkers or run, and get anti-kite attack your stalkers. Gas is simply too much for that one unit at a time, and your reproduction time for voidrays/stargate. I think robo is necessary and teching to storms is the best idea against zerg, along with mothership, but the voidray thing, I think that's a later stage appearance, if you even need it. ( kind of feels silly talking about these things, when hots would come out soon ) I hope you are trolling, otherwise your excessive use of commas and mass of text format are just painful on the eyes. In addition none of your points really hold up with the exception of the notion of a roach drop. I actually think Zerg doing multiple drops at different places while pressuring the 3rd and ramp to natural would be the correct response to this style. The multiple small armies from Z would make storm far less useful and since the Stargates were pretty late this game (not at all early like you mention) there would be no real way to deny the drops. To OP: this looks like a pretty cool/interesting style I'll have to look into at some point. In addition to the situation I described above I wonder how well this style would do vs roaches with burrow? The regen while burrowed seems like it would nullify the damage from storms, least till the voids come out to chase the roaches off. Otherwise I like the notion of this mass storm and void style. Will def have to check out more of your replays. | ||
d[s]c
United States79 Posts
On November 13 2012 06:12 d[s]c wrote: + Show Spoiler + Nice troll, are you some sort of zerg ambassador, trying to end the revolution before it even starts? My comment wasn't at all a "troll". just watch that specific replay from 12:00 ~15:00. I played random. Not zerg bias. But I know that zerg is op right now, which is why I would play zerg. Protoss is weak. This thread is evidence to that. I just switch to the OP race. It's obvious, but I think everyone has had moments of not getting the obvious, like in games. I've had long streaks. Showing what there is to get. He was able to max roaches, had 8 hatches, he just happened to be lazy about gassing up, so he only messed up macro-wise, had he simply put his gases up, he would've been able to remax roach constantly, or get a lot of infestors quickly. When he was "attempting" to snipe your third's gates and whatnot, he was irrationally scared of getting attacked, so instead of using all his roaches to actually hit buildings, he just used the front 6 or 8 roaches and ran back, when he could've just came forward and one shotted each building, instead he kept running back and forth, doing nothing, for about 2 minutes with all those roaches, and they all had majority of their hp, also, he could've just ran to the other entrance, your hts are slow, bust open the weaker opening, and ran into your base, you only had 7 hts the whole time, already used like 6 storms, had enough for maybe 4 more at most, at one point. Your composition was like 7 zealots, 3 sentries, 7 hts for like 4 minutes. His roaches were simply idle. I mention that he was able to remax roach constantly, regardless of this zerg player not having actual gas and geysers, because he should've had more gases up, but just didn't do it out of forgetfulness/mechanics. In this specific game, this specific player forgot, that's all, aside from this, all other zerg players would have the gas. [spoiler]https://www.box.com/s/pm2q0aetsfov8j6wyein[/spoiler] 9screen shots, just to add visual. starting 0-A-H-Z | ||
d[s]c
United States79 Posts
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Jintoss
Hong Kong117 Posts
On November 13 2012 01:18 tarrantius wrote: You wont be able to deal with any kind of pressure like most Zergs do. Example Map is Daybreak. If i follow ur Build correctly i want to take a 3rd with 5 Sentrys. Zergs at my level start Building a good amount of units if they detect stargate play and follow it up with huge droning and infestor tech. So 5 Sentrys arent enough to take a safe 3rd. He just needs 5-7 Roaches and 20-30 Lings while he sits on his eco lead. If u did watch Lonestarclash u saw like stephano easy denied Cranks fast 3rd. Stargate openings which including Voidrays always open huge timings with corruptor/infestor. Also with missing aoe dmg u wont be able to deal with a simple infestor/ling counter. Zergs arent losing anything to voidrays anymore (except the overlords which are on the map like 1-2). Your complete build is made around the Zerg is playing passiv. If the zerg just playing standard timings (50 drones make some units start pressure 3rd) while pressuring infestor/4th then hit next timing before toss gets aoe then hit next timing before Blords rdy to weak the protoss timing push (Stephano killed Crank with this kind of timing) your Build dies. IF If if if if if if. Lets see some replays off this style dying to Zerg 3 base pressure. Crank wasn't using this style anyway, he went colossus, and got surrounded badly while taking the open 4th in the centre of daybreak. VR+Storm+zealot/sentry is the comp we would have while taking a 4th. Crank was playing with Stalker/Colossus. And we aren't talking a few voids, were talking 8 of them by 15:00 with +2 air weaps on the way and +2 shields. Its like you're not even reading all the testimonies of this composition destroying anything even with corrupters and infestors, and trying for yourself and posting replays. Smells like more rhetoric from the pessimistic state of PvZ macro play in the pro scene. | ||
Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On November 13 2012 05:52 Asmodeusx wrote: I defend all kinds of pushes and attacks with it. Watch the replays. I think this point would be better made if, in your 12-minute roach max replay, Asmodeus, you built a stargate before 11 minutes, as your build suggests? -Cross (I'm not a disbeliever, but would enjoy an example of somebody following your build and holding that off.) | ||
Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 13 2012 12:28 Crosswind wrote: I think this point would be better made if, in your 12-minute roach max replay, Asmodeus, you built a stargate before 11 minutes, as your build suggests? -Cross (I'm not a disbeliever, but would enjoy an example of somebody following your build and holding that off.) 1. This is not a build order guide. 2. If you don't realize that any build can hold 12 min roach max, you just need units and FF's, then it's not for you. | ||
TheLunatic
309 Posts
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