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da0ud
Hong Kong252 Posts
He has not dug any huge holes in anybody's argumentation but he feels concerned and sincere. Same has with djo I don't really like that he keeps empasizing on the fact that he is rereading the thread or will be at any period in time. So small FoS on you Obsy here. As a conclusion, I will but you somewhere null to town at the moment. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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da0ud
Hong Kong252 Posts
He is still in my top3 list of who I would consder lynching. Just the argument at the time for voting him because he voted me while I was asleep and not able to defend myself (even though contradictory with his earlier against sylver) is not strong enough. Unvote | ||
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da0ud
Hong Kong252 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
edit: ninjad. And hahahaha I can edit :D | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
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da0ud
Hong Kong252 Posts
Otherwise I will wake up tomorrow morning at 6am and read the thread and hopefully can vote in accordance to where this discussion goes. But I am not sure this will be doable and I might end up ninja-ing. If one of my top 3 scum-ish reads is set for being lynched that might be easier choice but still... | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16787463 First, look at Djo's case about Clarity's - non committal attitude - blending in - lack of scumhunting I would like to add two things to that. 1) Scumhunting Method Clarity's scumhunting method for day 1 appears to be looking for people who don't answer questions. Why is this a scum favored strategy? It's an easy way to scumhunt. You don't have to read for changes in behavior/motivations. Also, if everyone answers the questions, then you can say "oh, idk who is scum cuz all my questions were answered" Example of what I mean On November 04 2012 17:08 Clarity_nl wrote: All the answers I got were sufficient. Hell, your answer had an entire case on sylver attached to it. Maybe I should be pushing people harder. I feel like there are plenty of people already doing that though. My top scrumreads at the time were you and Alsn, Alsn wasn't around at all and you were already being pushed by others. I was just reading, and as I said I will end up posting at least a solid case today, you can tell me if my information gathering has been weak at that point. 2) Contradiction to his scumhunting views On November 04 2012 17:20 Clarity_nl wrote: Top 3 choices in my eyes are Debears, Sylver and you. As for people who haven't answered my questions: Alsn, Cheese, Sylver. In this post, clarity names 3 top scumreads. He has no reasoning. Not only that he acknowledges that 3 people haven't answered his questions. Now let's look at what he said about people who don't answer his questions. On November 04 2012 16:54 Clarity_nl wrote: Because I felt it would go along nicely with any cases I would make. If you "miss" a question asked to you that's super scummy because town reads and re-reads a lot. Scum just sorta play.. Because they don't need extra information[. and this On November 03 2012 18:43 Clarity_nl wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2012 16:06 Obzy wrote: @Cheese >:l The no newb cards comment seems specifically aimed at me. Not really a fan. I'm not wholly sure why he dropped his argument against debears so quickly - pointing out previous meta, etc, and then it just absolutely falls off the face of the planet. Why? (I disagree with this statement, by the way: I don't think it's directed at you specifically, but it's interesting that you think it is. The reason Cheese said to not drop the newbie card is because it's not town behavior. When you are town you want people to believe you, if you come out of the gate saying you're awful and no one should listen to you then that's anti-town. It also prevents scum from using "omg sorry I'm just new!", the less excuses scum have available the better for town. My reads at this point in time: Obzy: Leaning slightly town. He hasn't quite come out of his shell yet but he seems genuinly interested in discussion and progressing. @ Obzy Do you think you can get over this "I'm new" thing and give us the best reads you've got? Instead of posting something that's obvious to everyone perhaps post something that stands out to you. _ Rad: Null. He's being more careful than last game, lurking a bit more. He mentioned he would be more careful, but not in pregame, he did this after the role PMs were sent. He also seems really invested in helping Obzy out as he's the newest, the only one here who wasn't in XXIX. @ Rad Why the interest in Obzy? Are you going to use MLG as an excuse at any point this weekend? _ Alsn: Leaning slightly scum, very little info about him though. He opened super aggressive this game, which is the opposite of how he played in the majority of XXIX. Perhaps the only reason he snapped at debears so hard is because debears said On November 03 2012 10:04 debears wrote: If I'm not here for lynch, its irl conflicts 99% of the time. Don't pull an Alsn @ Alsn Why the change in behavior from last game? What do you think of debears at this point? _ Mr Cheesecake: Null. He went SUPER defensive when he was called out about making a ton of jokes, but that discussion got blown way out of proportion. The fact that he's acting more like the way he was in mafia QT XXIX than in the actual XXIX thread is indicative of town. @ Cheese You did have some jokes in the XXIX thread. Can you tell us if these were jokes for the sake of jokes or if you used them to push a scum agenda? An argument can be made for both. _ Djodref: Leaning slightly scum, He was obsessed with policy. Everyone was ready to move on but he kept mentioning it over and over. He's also the person that blew up the whole *Cheese's scum joke* thing, which bogged us down for a couple of pages. @ Djodref If you had to lynch someone right now, would it be da0ud or someone else? _ Debears: Null. Regardless of if he's scum or town, he is getting the ball rolling which is good for us. Problem is... that was what he was doing in XXIX as well and he was scum in that. Older games suggest this is simply his meta so there is no read to be made about his opening. What I'm curious about is if he's going to pull a vanishing act in D2 / D3 again. @ Debears What's your ready on Obzy? _ Sylverfire: Null. Only have 3 real posts to read him on. He opened really aggressive onto debears, even though he's keeping the ball rolling, an odd choice. He showed up way late but Rad pointed out that he is sticking to the same schedule he's had in previous games. @ Sylverfire You've only shared your read on debears, is there anything else that stands out to you? _ So with all that said, I only have two slight scumreads on Alsn and Djo, so I hope they defend themselves as soon as possible. Even if we end up lynching da0ud for lurking, currently with 0 posts, we can at least gather as much information as possible Hopefully this gets some discussion going, please comment on as much as possible in my post and point out any flaws. Do no avoid answering the questions I addressed to you, it would be a very scummy thing to do. It's a contradiction, and a contradiction in a mafia oriented way. His scumhunting method is a way to avoid actually having to scumhunt, then he doesn't even use it when he gives his top scumreads 3) Avoiding Making Cases Throughout d1, Clarity has repeatedly avoided making cases, stating they'll come sometime in the last 24 hours. On November 03 2012 21:39 Clarity_nl wrote: My two weak scumreads are still you and Alsn, but that's what they are... weak. My post is simply to gather as much info as possible. I will end up making a case before the day is over, but I figured giving this thread a good kick would help. Why is clarity having such a hard time making cases? As town, you would be naturally suspicious of everyone. Yet, Clarity is having trouble. Who tend to have trouble making cases? Scum, since they know that their targets for lynch are town. 4) Taking the Backseat Also, notice how he wants to take a backseat this game. Refer to the example quote before. "Other people are already pushing enough as it is". That is not a townie mindset at all. The meta - Clarity's scumhunting attitude is way different than his last game as town. Here's an example post On October 26 2012 06:43 Clarity_nl wrote: I think "advocating chaos" is actually a good argument on its own, however.... + Show Spoiler [Gathered quotes] + On October 25 2012 10:26 debears wrote: What are you saying here exactly? Policy lynches are by no means a necessity. If we are confident and push reads, like dp did last game, then the scum will show. Why do you lack the confidence of catching scum d1? FOS dandel Btw guys officially postjng from phone for rest of night. Tell me if something gets messes up and u can't read On October 25 2012 11:39 debears wrote: I might be. But, consider this. How did that slip from kush come about? Darthpunks heavy pressure.....duh. policy lynches, on the other hand, are usually caused by passivity or something like a claim. Besides, its fairly easy to discuss policy lynches. Its not easy to be confident. I learned my mistake last game. I didn't stick to a read til the SDM case. I basically said screw it and went with it. Where did that confidence get me? On October 25 2012 13:15 debears wrote: Ok this phone posting iw hard. Forgive th disorganization. Confidence has everything to do with d1. If everyone is confident and pushes cases, then scum will be forced to do the same. That is the key. We need to force scumcto contribute early My confidence led to me making a game winning case on arguably the most townie looking player (who was the last scum) On October 25 2012 13:18 debears wrote: Very well djo. I found the wording of seriously strong for your post. Can you clarify why you have a sudden 180 on confidence on day 1 from your last game as town? On October 25 2012 13:24 debears wrote: Rad, I understand what you're saying. However, you are misinterpretjng my words. I'm not saying go on a tunneling spree. I'm saying have the confidence to make a case on anyone and pursue that case until you find that person town or someone else more scummy On October 25 2012 13:33 debears wrote: Why are you so focused on lynching a lurker over a scumread right now imo lurker lynches are last resorts to scumreads. If a lurker has a scumread, that's a bonus. Why do you keep pressing this "artificial confidence" thing when newbie games are notorious for lurking (usually caused by fear/lack of confidence) and lack of confidence? On October 25 2012 13:45 debears wrote: That is the statement I'm talking about. Am i missing something here? Can someone help me out? You don't understand having confidence to pusb d1 scum reads over lurkers? What do scum want? Easy lynchs. Who are easy lynches? Lurkers. FOS Rad On October 25 2012 13:48 debears wrote: Actually, that's a scumslip ##Vote Rad "If we are confident and push reads, like dp did last game, then the scum will show. Why do you lack the confidence of catching scum d1?" First mention of the term confident "Its not easy to be confident. I learned my mistake last game. I didn't stick to a read til the SDM case. I basically said screw it and went with it. Where did that confidence get me?" Second, trying to enforce that being confident is a good thing "My confidence led to me making a game winning case on arguably the most townie looking player (who was the last scum)" Same story "Can you clarify why you have a sudden 180 on confidence on day 1 from your last game as town?" Someone "lacks confidence", better ask insinuating questions "have the confidence to make a case on anyone and pursue that case until you find that person town or someone else more scummy" Yeah, confidence! "newbie games are notorious for lurking (usually caused by fear/lack of confidence) and lack of confidence?" Guys, you just don't get it, be confident! "You don't understand having confidence to pusb d1 scum reads over lurkers? What do scum want? Easy lynchs. Who are easy lynches? Lurkers. Actually, that's a scumslip ##Vote Rad" Using backwards logic, followed by casting his vote, which he later withdrew without explaining It's easy to retort: What do townies want? Active town. What doesn't contribute to an active town? Lurkers. We never see him use the word confident again after he casts his vote No explanation, nothing, just withdraws his vote that he so casually cast. The whole confidence thing is weird to me. He has a thematic history of posting in this thread, as if it's planned out. If he planned it out as scum, his actions make sense. Trying to appeal to your emotions, trying to turn the word confidence into his own little buzzword. If he planned it out as town, actually trying to help the town think critically and relentless towards possible scum, why would he vote for Rad, who has made decent points and questioned people? Let me ask everyone this: Who is more likely to plan out how they will behave day 1, town or scum? Look at how he's willing to actually analyze actions over the whole day 1 last game, yet this game he has done NOTHING of the sort. He hasn't tunneled anyone either, like he tunneled me last game. That, combine with his "answer questions or you're scummy" approach is very different play from his town self. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
##Vote Clarity | ||
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Mr. Cheesecake
United States3756 Posts
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da0ud
Hong Kong252 Posts
Point 3 is not that strong an argument as I have not made cases either and even though I am town as opposed to what you say it is pretty hard for me to make a very decent case right now, that even myself wouldnt be able to contradict. But as opposed to me he said he will make cases, which he has avoided making. Point 4 is a bit light to me, meta is meta and it can evolve. Just look how Djo has played so differently in all his games so far. There is a lot a red to emphasize you case though. Pretty convincing. | ||
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da0ud
Hong Kong252 Posts
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da0ud
Hong Kong252 Posts
Clarity are you here to defend yourself ? Mr CC, can you add anything on this case ? or do you have any other to support ? | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
First of all I'd like to address the topic which was at hand when I left, Rad v debears. I think debears' case did have some merit, particularly that it was pretty weird how Rad changed his mind. However, after reading Rad's responses he seems honest to me about his reasons. I don't particularly agree that he must have gotten "outside" help for changing his mind like that, his explanation that he revisited debears' comments feel just as likely, so pretty much the whole case seems like a null tell to me. However, I'd like to address sylver by saying that I most certainly did not stop suspecting debears after the initial lie argument as the game started. In fact, I made a FoS based on his scum meta from last game, as well as what I considered to be scummy behaviour from debears. Then I kept grilling him because I thought he wasn't making much sense from a town point of view. The only reason I'm not prepared to lynch him straight up is because while he has said some scummy things, he has also demonstrated(at least to me) a lot of possible town mentality in his activity and willingness to not shy away from the controversial issues. Like I said before, either very strongly town, or he's trying his utmost to stay consistent, something which should be easily catchable later in the game once we get some information on people's alignments. What worries me however, is the fact that the "things I wanted to let develop" which I mentioned before going to sleep was that I wanted to see how sylver's and Clarity's continued play would look like. I had suspicions of my own against clarity for basically not taking any position whatsoever except to vote someone based on lurker policy. Yes, I can see the motivations for it being a pressure vote, but in context with the rest of his behaviour(weakly committing to pretty much everything, or committing to pretty much nothing) I find that scummy indeed. My conundrum at this time is that both of the people I had pegged as the most scummy prior to this(debears, Djod) are suspecting him. That being said, at the very least I have a good idea of what I need to be looking at today. Clarity, Djod, debears. I'm also going to look into sylver because I had some suspicions against him before I went to sleep but I must have missed whether or not he contradicted or reinforced those suspicions of mine when I just read through the thread. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
In the clarity case, the most important part is point 1 and 2. Points 3 and 4 go along with it. Also, on point 4, meta is meta and can change. But does personality change? You gotta remember. Clarity was the one modkilled for sending out a pm eager to discuss reads, yet he hasn't really been discussing reads all game | ||
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Rad
United States935 Posts
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da0ud
Hong Kong252 Posts
As you mentioned in your conclusion I will directly be looking for Clarity's response to Djo, Debears accusations and yours now. If he does not properly do it, if i find other scummy tells in his defense I will definitely vote him. One reason I dont case my vote now is that as you mentioned as well, the other two or my trio of scummish reads are suspecting him, Hence there must be something fishy. I am pretty convinced at least one of them is scum though. As a conclusion, i will be looking closely at Debears and Djodref as well in order to make my choice tomorrow morning. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
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