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On November 04 2012 14:44 Djodref wrote:@ debearsI have doubts regarding sylverfire being scum because it would have been very ballsy for a mafia player to open with a post like this. He was sure to stand out by using his vote as a stronger FoS on you. Also slips are not that indicative  Clarity, on the other hand, makes sure to not stand out. He didn't follow up Cheese even though this one didn't answer his question, I didn't feel pressure from him in Alsn direction or in my direction. He has not done anything original apart from nit-picking some sentences here and there. I have to check Rad's filter but I can understand where he stands right now because of last game.
The ballsy part is WIFOM. Also, who is a better person to attack than the most active player? Realistically, there's almost no chance of lynching the most active player d1. If you target the most active player, people think "oh, original scumhunting" and then, when you vote someone else, people say "oh, his top scumread isn't getting lynched so it's ok he switched his vote".
Know what I'm saying?
Anyways, him attacking me is a null tell. His reasoning, imo, was suspect, which is what really matters
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Just putting my vote and my fingers of suspicion where my mouth is
##Unvote
##Vote Clarity_nl
FoS sylverfyre
FoS Mr. Cheesecake
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Djo, you kinda ignored a question I had for you:
By jumping on me immediately, you jumped to debears defense. And with a weak case on me, for that matter. Are you aware that your actions were defending another player? Did you mean to do this? Why?
Additionally, I'm not really sure about your "we should use plurality lynching better" strategy. If 3-4 votes is all it takes to get lynched, it's much easier for scum to sit back and have nothing to do with it, or to swing a vote the way they want. I said this last game, too. We should all cast our suspicions, but I'd be much more comfortable if we can actually settle on a majority vote as we get closer to lynch time, because it's more likely that scum have to get their hands dirty.
Questionable/unclear game advice? Don't like it, smells a bit scummy.
You defend cheese's FOS by accusing him of nitpicking... and what exactly was your case against me? Oh yeah, you were nitpicking.
You even did a discussion on roles with debears. I thought we decided last game that discussing roles can make those with roles more easily targetted by scum?
I'm gonna have to say I'm getting some scum reads off you, Djo.
I still am reading some scum into debears too, but I'm less sure of it now, and wondering if I am reading too much into the fact that he OMGUS'd me and getting confirmation bias off of it.
I don't like how debears is handling Rad's criticisms of him at all. Wasting time is starting to smell like part of an agenda more and more, and perhaps he switched tactics when I called him out?
Other reads (much less conclusive)
daoud:
I find it interesting that da0ud is tunneling Clarity for voting him when he was asleep, but not debears.
debears/da0ud interaction:
I find it interesting that debears felt the need to vote da0ud when da0ud is already being called out. (And he dropped his vote on me in order to do it)
I find it interesting that clarity has been quiet today compared to at gamestart. (Addendum: F5 midpost) Hard to miss, now that Djo has made it into a huge headline.
I find it interesting that since debears FOS'd Alsn early game, Alsn has had almost no suspicion on him. Also interesting that he defended me. Significantly. And that's been like, his only scumread all day.
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@ sylvefire
Are you writing your posts while skimming through the thread ?
Was it the case for your first post ?
Regarding my vote on you, I honestly thought you had made a scumslip because I understood "casting suspicion upon" like "trying to discredit". It was on no way a defense of debears.
Speaking of the devil, I don't want to focus on him right now because he is the most active player among us. I hope to have more time to really analyze his filter and his motivations.
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@ sylverfyre
By the way, here is my defense against Cheese FoS: + Show Spoiler +On November 04 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 03 2012 14:10 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:*Sigh* Of course I'm focused on defending myself. I started to post some stuff you on Debears in regards to Alsn posting about you, but then Djo proceeds to tunnel me. Here's the obligitory OMGUS case on Djo. I learned a lot of stuff from Nack last game, despite him being an arrogant SOB. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:51 Djodref wrote:
@ Cheese
Regarding your pokemon joke explanation, I didn't like how you focused on the content instead of precising what were your motivations for this joke at that time. It would be acceptable if you just told me that it was genuine or an attempt to frame me (it occurred during last game after all).
Nevertheless, I would agree that we should drop this discussion. But you are still on my radar. I made this exact mistake last game as scum, "Djo is not off the hook" thing. He wants to ensure that his suspicions for me are known. As town, he would not have to make this statement because he would have faith that we already know that. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 12:06 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 12:00 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On November 03 2012 10:50 Djodref wrote:
@ debaers
I don't think this one deserves a FoS. When Alsn says that it is technically a lie, that's just Alsn arguing about math and logic. On November 03 2012 11:52 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 11:12 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On November 03 2012 11:11 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 03 2012 11:10 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On November 03 2012 11:09 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 11:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Debears you seem really paranoid. On November 03 2012 10:42 debears wrote:
Yeah i am. He calls me a liarin red and then peaces out without wanting to hear my thoughts. Aint that scummy? Considering how active he was around lynch time last game, which was only an hour before this He didn't call you, Debears the person, a liar. You're taking Alsn's nit-pick of a post awfully personally. The quick, useless FoS is also the same exact tactic you used last game. Old hat, Debears, old hat.
1) i don't wear a hat2) i rescind my argument. The red text threw me off Scumtell. Howso? Mafia usually wear hats. He's so adamant that he most certainly does NOT wear a hat. Therefore, scumtell. @ CheesecakePlease refrain from joking when talking about scumtells. It's confusing. FoS Cheese The logic is strong with this one. @ CheeseI was re-reading the thread and I really didn't like this "it's a scumtell" joke. I'm not against jokes but scumtells are quite serious business. I've got my eyes on you. Again, another exact mistake I made last game. Feeling the need to tell people that you have been reading the thread. For the second part, he's assuring that we realize that he knows this game is important to him. As town, he wouldn't feel the need to tell us that the game is important. Then there is the entire "joke" case he makes, which is, no matter how you slice it, a terrible argument. He summons it up from nowhere and makes a huge deal about it. I want to drop the conversation because it's irrelevant and cluttering the thread. He insists that there is something there, but I reiterate, there is not. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:53 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 13:48 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 13:43 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 13:28 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 13:26 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 13:22 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 13:11 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 13:04 Clarity_nl wrote:
Okay re-reading your post you're saying we shouldn't focus on one/two people, instead considering everyone and not consolidate on a lynch? @ ClarityExactly, I think you everyone should just vote for his top scumread while giving enough reason to do so and then we start again from there and see who is likely to be lynched, be it 2 or 3 players. I think it's the best way to use plurality lynch. Considering only 2 possibilities narrows the discussion and allows mafia players to have some excuse to lynch town (cf Cheese last game lynching daoud in the daoud/ini match-up). The downfall is that the end of the day could be a bit messy. seriously.....why are we having to explain this? 1) Scumhunt 2) Vote for your top scumread 3) When the voting comes down to 2 candidates and lynch is near, pick one of two said candidates and give reasoning why you're voting them Is that clear enough for all of you to understand? Please stop talking about policy @ debearsMy point is that it would benefit us to consider more than 2 candidates for the lynch. Anyway it's too late to discuss about it now, I was just answering Clarity's question about it. By the way it's not policy, it's lynch mechanics  More semantics, anyways it's useless. What do you think of Obsy's, Dau0d's, and Sylver's epic uselessness so far? @ debearsThe game has just started. Regarding daoud and sylver, the longer it takes for them to join the discussion, the bigger my expectations are for their future input. Obsy has to step up a little bit. @Obsy if you are town, you should definitively ask Hapa for help So you're saying Obsy is town????? Obvious scumtell omg guyszzzz instalynch him Lol NMM XXVIII Never forget @ debearsYou really made me chuckle with this one ^^ Need I even mention how utterly hypocritical this post is? ##FOS: Djodref Here is my response regarding your FoS on me. I've inserted your post in the spoiler. First of all, let me say that using OMGUS to vote people is more a mafia trait than a town trait. Dandel has been really OMGUsing me last game when I have made my case against me. Anyway, you have your reasons, so let me address them. Regarding the "you are still on my radar" part, I've been tunneling you for a while and I have not been fully satisfied with your explanations. Nevertheless, we agreed that we should better drop our argument because I was going too far and started to post some posts irrelevant to this game. I was just expressing my opinion on you after our argument which could have been different if you had provided me better explanations. About me re-reading the thread, I was trying to explain you and everyone the context for my sudden FoS on you. You attacked me on the logic but I think the logic was fine because debears had FoS Alsn and I had FoS you for different reasons. In fact, I've realized that I had just dropped a bomb in the thread. That was my initial intent to spark discussion but I got bad feedback about it so I wanted to give better context. To finish about jokes, I'm totally for using jokes in this game But I've been using jokes on purpose when I was mafia to buddy some other players or to lightly cast suspicion on them. So I'm wary of the "scum tell" jokes. In France, we say that there is also a part of truth in jokes and lies And I've been an hypocrite, I admit it. But I really laughed to debears joke ^^
Please show me where I'm accusing him of nit-picking in my defense. I'm accusing Cheesecake of nit-picking (along with Clarity, what a coincidence !) later in the thread.
And even if I gave you the impression that I voted you by using nit-picking, my main problem was the way you cast your vote. You didn't provide the right explanations right away after all.
Then, the slip that debears has found achieved to convince me.
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EBWOP: I hope to have more time to really analyze his filter and his motivations later in the game.
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@ sylverfire
Regarding the plurality lynch, it's too late now to discuss about the lynch mechanics. But I would like to tell you that we have now a 7-2 town/mafia ratio. If we have 3 lynch candidates instead of 2, our chances are way better to have a mafia player in the candidates and it's going to be quite difficult for his only partner to sway the vote. Regardless of your alignment, you can ask Hapa what he thinks about it.
Regarding the setup and role discussion, I suspected debears of role-fishing and this is something I'm going to keep in mind.
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Are you writing your posts while skimming through the thread ?
Of course I am.
Was it the case for your first post ?
Duh? I even say as much at the time by complaining that TL was down and it stalled me writing for a while.
Also, you seem to misunderstand what is useful about "Most Active". The whole point about being active is that there is material to scrutinize. Why don't you want to focus on him? High activity is not, by itself, a defense.
Also geez, triple post to reply to. (at least they aren't all oneliners?)
I suppose we simply disagree on exactly how to best use a plurality lynch. I'm fine with coming up near lynch time with multiple options. However, I think that if votes are split too many ways, it's easier for scum to hammer one target with one or two votes. Risky, but if town is scrambling around between more targets, it gives more possible hiding spots in the vote history. Regardless, I'll excuse you for having a different view on the best way to approach lynch time, you're right. We can't waste a ton of time discussing that. Leaving that as null tell.
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If I'm not wrong, if we pick 3 random players among us instead of 2 as lynch candidates, the chances to have a least one mafia player in the group of 3 are roughly of 58,3% when the chances for the group of 2 are only of 41,3%. I'm expecting Alsn to correct me if I'm wrong
The mafia team is going to be in a very uncomfortable position if one of its member (even more if the two of them) is at the risk of being lynched during D1. They are going to be very easy to spot if they try to sway the vote. That's why I think it's better for us to consider 3 lynch candidates.
Anyway, the best thing to do for everybody is to vote their top scumread and we should start to think about who to lynch after this. So I think we should start to vote soon ^^
I'm not sold on Clarity yet by the way, I want him to bring more original content in the thread. As I have said, the daoud stuff was quite the most easy one.
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@ sylverfyre
Debears being very active, I'm sure I can enough things in his posts to find him scummy. It's just that I don't want to spend my time doing that right now. Active players and controversial players are not a good target for D1 and I'm planning to look at him after the lynch or even during D2 (if we are both alive of course).
I think that we have spent a good amount of time during D1 discussing about me being scummy. It was the main topic for a while. So I really would like to focus on players that fly under the radar. Clarity is the best example in my opinion.
What do you think of my "case" against him ?
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WTF your math. Random voting, We still have a 2/9 chance to lynch a scum, regardless of how you set up the lynchwagons. And games are generally balanced that if you go with pure random voting all game, mafia has a slight edge (otherwise the game gets degenerate if pure random lynching is an optimal strategy for town).
OK Whoa. Wait a sec. You say it's too late to discuss lynch mechanics. Then, as I agree to disagree, you make another paragraph on lynch mechanics. WHY? Are you trying to lock me into a pointless discussion?
Also, you susupected debears was rolefishing? When I read through that quote tree, I got the impression it was you that might be rolefishing, not him.
I did mention that clarity was on my radar for being awfully quiet. And his more recent stuff isn't particularly pulling up any big reads. I found it noteworthy (and said as much earlier) but he's not a lynch target to me... yet.
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##Vote Djodref
I do need to reexamine djo v debears early game though.
The green text asking about framer was particularly weird to me (I don't even see what that would accomplish? Frame a scum... wouldn't that do nothing?) - to the point of being a silly question that is almost definitely irrelevant to everyone.
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On November 04 2012 13:19 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 11:21 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 03 2012 11:18 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On November 03 2012 11:13 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 03 2012 11:12 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On November 03 2012 11:11 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 03 2012 11:10 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On November 03 2012 11:09 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 11:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Debears you seem really paranoid. On November 03 2012 10:42 debears wrote:
Yeah i am. He calls me a liarin red and then peaces out without wanting to hear my thoughts. Aint that scummy? Considering how active he was around lynch time last game, which was only an hour before this He didn't call you, Debears the person, a liar. You're taking Alsn's nit-pick of a post awfully personally. The quick, useless FoS is also the same exact tactic you used last game. Old hat, Debears, old hat.
1) i don't wear a hat2) i rescind my argument. The red text threw me off Scumtell. Howso? Mafia usually wear hats. He's so adamant that he most certainly does NOT wear a hat. Therefore, scumtell. I thought you were gonna come out with some kind of awesome flavor theory. Dissapointed. On others I'd point your joking attitude out as scum but I mean, you're Mr Cheesecake. Anyone stand out to you so far? I didn't joke at all last game, apart from a few trollish posts at the end hehe. I just think Debears is playing his scumgame from the last game right to the T. Aggressive opener, meaningless FoS. He also explicitly mentions that he's town and is being called a liar (someone saying you lied =/= being a liar). It's cause I read your Mafia QT I guess, you're right, in the thread itself you were super serious. So why the change of tone? XXIX is my first mafia game on TL, so it's my first encounter with debears. Maybe debears opens like this in every mafia game regardless? I'll go dig around. Feel free to comment debears. @ CalrityFirst encounter with debears ? What did you mean to say exactly ?
First time playing with him. I was pointing out that it's hard to get a meta read on him because he opened the exact same this game as last game, which would be weird to do as scum. I think I confirm later (than the post you quoted) that this is true.
It's currently 8 am, so the last 10 hours I have been sleeping. My sleepschedule's been rather odd.
As for your concerns about me, I have already said that I will be making a case (or multiple) today. First day is information gathering.
As for you can't find any original thoughts... remember that "list" that I posted? The only objection you had to it was that it was a list. It has a lot of good points and observations in it. Don't disregard it just because your newbie mafia guide says that scum like to post meaningless lists, like vote tallies.
I post a lot of good information and what do I get? You say "well it's a list, so it doesn't help" and debears says "too many questions, doesn't help anyone"... except it DOES. It helps town. All the answers to the questions I asked can be used later, and I urge everyone to look at who answered their question and who hasn't.
But to summarize... Djo says it's a plurality lynch so we should split our attention. I show my thoughts on everyone because I get asked, and Djo says I should focus more on certain people. I focus on da0ud and he dissapears, so I wait rather than letting it go.
The reason I got defensive was because I spent a while making that post, and you shit on it with a one liner.
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EBWOP
But to summarize... Djo says it's a plurality lynch so we should split our attention. I show my thoughts on everyone because I get asked, and Djo says I should focus more on certain people. I focus on da0ud and he dissapears, so I wait rather than letting it go.
And then he accuses me of not contributing?
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@Obzy - I made a pressure vote. Debears responded to it. We went back and forth at each other for a while. When we started to get into a loop of OMGUS, I was starting to feel like it was a waste of time and space that wasn't bringing a lot to the town, I let the vote drop. Scum love nothing more than when two townies are at each others throats constantly without looking at other people.
I'm not going to random vote first half of day 1 and follow it through all the way to lynchtime unless my target makes some SERIOUS scumtells under pressure. While debears doesn't exactly look pristine, I need to look at (and scumhunt sniff) more than 1 person on day 1.
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First of all, I didn't shit on your list with a one liner. I have taken your question seriously and I have answered to it.
I was giving you an advice and you reacted in a strange way.
Please show me my post where I discredited your list.
My main problem is that you didnt follow up Uyour list. Nor your
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EBWOP: you did not follow up your questions in your list. You did neither put pressure on me nor Alsn
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Djo, you already had people jumping at you, what does adding an extra voice do other than clutter up the thread?
As for Alsn, he wasn't around. And when he came back he immediately talked about what happened at the start of the day and why. He explained his reasoning better and he contributed in other areas. This is why I changed him to null, for me.
I guess I was ticked off because you kinda handwaved it, looking back, it was debears who shit on it.
People are giving me advice in this thread, I follow it and I get screwed over by doing so. I'm just gonna listen to Hapa and ignore any "advice" from you guys, it's messing with my play.
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On November 04 2012 16:09 sylverfyre wrote:
WTF your math. Random voting, We still have a 2/9 chance to lynch a scum, regardless of how you set up the lynchwagons. And games are generally balanced that if you go with pure random voting all game, mafia has a slight edge (otherwise the game gets degenerate if pure random lynching is an optimal strategy for town).
OK Whoa. Wait a sec. You say it's too late to discuss lynch mechanics. Then, as I agree to disagree, you make another paragraph on lynch mechanics. WHY? Are you trying to lock me into a pointless discussion?
Also, you susupected debears was rolefishing? When I read through that quote tree, I got the impression it was you that might be rolefishing, not him.
I did mention that clarity was on my radar for being awfully quiet. And his more recent stuff isn't particularly pulling up any big reads. I found it noteworthy (and said as much earlier) but he's not a lynch target to me... yet.
@ sylverfyre
I'm just saying that we have way more chances to have a scum in a group of 3 possible lynch candidates than in a group of 2 possible lynch candidates. It's obvious but I've done the math for it to have better estimate on our chances and you should consider picking groups of random players if you want to calculate probabilities.
By the way, I didn't see your post before posting mine. It's an interesting information for everyone and I want to share my view I'm going to approach this lynch.
Debears mentioned the setup being imbalanced and introduced the medic in a weird way before everyone else. My question to the host about a possible framer was to show that the setup is not imbalanced rolewise.
And you better give good reasons for voting against me like this because it is going to fire back at you.
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@ Clarity
A few people never answered your questions from the list. Why do you not push them as well ?
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EPT
