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On October 26 2012 13:50 Djodref wrote:
@Rad
I'm focused on Inig for his total lack of scumhunting and his weird attempt to gain town cred.
Could you sum up for me the main questions I have to answer to ? I'll try my best to answer them.
Djo, I already did that for you earlier today. Why aren't you going the extra mile to prove your innocence?
On October 26 2012 09:45 Djodref wrote:
@Rad
I know Alsn town's play and I find him not fitting his meta. I intend to get some strong response to my post. I'm provoking him on purpose.
Regarding your concerns about me not changing my mind, have they been addressed or not ?
On October 26 2012 09:53 Rad wrote:@DjodrefNo they haven't been addressed. Please see my concerns: Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:22 Rad wrote:
I can't think of any good reason a townie would have to be completely unopen to changing their opinion on something regardless of the arguments presented. Worst case scenario for a townie is you're just not convinced by the argument so you keep your original opinion, then someone's not happy that they couldn't convince you.
Seems like a scummy stance. The scummy reasoning would go something like "I need to be consistent, and if someone changes my opinion on something, I'll look inconsistent, so I'm going to just make it clear that I'm not going to change my mind on this so it's dropped."
That's what you sound like with that statement djo. And the restating of my concerns: Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:43 Rad wrote:
You said "I won't change my opinion." I pointed out that I can't think of any good reason a townie would be opposed to changing their opinion if an argument is good. It sounds like a scummy sort of move, for the reasons I laid out. That's why I have an interest in it, because if you're a townie it doesn't add up, thus you come across as scum. I'm completely open to some reasonable argument for why a townie would ever have that sort of mind set.
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On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote:
My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their opinions and such).
The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on you.
So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref.
I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then.
@Alsn
The slip I have made was because I was mentioning another game I have been playing with daoud where he was town. I understand it can be seen as a scumslip. It's a valid point but not a strong one in my opinion.
I have asked questions to many people, not only Inig and Roco. This is a misrepresentation of the reality. It's true that I'm focusing a lot on Inig but it's because I think he is scum. That's why I want people to give their thoughts about him.
Criticizing Rad for his support of lurker policy lynch doesn't mean I don't want to lynch a lurker. I don't want to protect the lurkers or anything like that. I just don't want us to use blindly the policy lynch or to rely on it too much. If a lurker is scummy enough (like Inig in my eyes), I would lynch him for being scummy, nor for the policy.
I think your FoS is forced by the way...
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@Rad
I'm not saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on anything. For example, I've already changed my opinion about you (from scummy to light townie). I'm saying that I'm not going to change my opinion on a particular point. I didn't want to discuss about it anymore because I don't think that this particular point is relevant at all.
This particular point is when to agree on applying lurker policy lynch. I was discussing it with dandel. If you have something else in mind, then I would like you to tell me exactly what it is.
dandel would have liked us to agree to follow a strong lurker policy for this game at the beginning of D1. He presented his reasons for it and I found them totally acceptable, I even admitted them they were good. He has backed up his arguments with experience.
But I disagree with such a strategy because I firmly believe that it is quite easy for the mafia to avoid a lynch for lurking, pushing some mislynch on lurky townies and use this strategy for their benefit. And I'm not going to change my mind about it.
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@debears
If you don't mind, I'm going to address your whole case later today. I don't want to spend all my time defending myself...
Plus I have some work to do ^^
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@Rad
So your main concern about me was I said that I wouldn't change my mind ?
Do you have other concerns ?
Did you understand I was only speaking about a particular point (agreeing that a strict lurker policy should be part of our strategy) ?
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On October 26 2012 14:21 Djodref wrote:
@Rad
So your main concern about me was I said that I wouldn't change my mind ?
Do you have other concerns ?
Did you understand I was only speaking about a particular point (agreeing that a strict lurker policy should be part of our strategy) ?
My original concerns came from the "confidence" ordeal from before. As I found with debears, that can turn out to be a huge ordeal and I'll address it again if I feel the need to.
My concerns about your unwillingness to change your stance on something regardless of the arguments provided are still there. To me, as I've stated, this feels like a scummy perspective. I can't see a good reason for a townie to not be open to changing their opinions on something based on further arguments. "No no no not going to budge on this!" feels scummy. "Let me hear your points, ok, I disagree and here's why" feels townie.
It was the way you handled the questions. It doesn't matter that it was about just a particular point, or even if that point mattered in the end, but that you were so specific about never changing your opinion on it regardless of the arguments provided. It didn't feel like a townie move, so I can only suspect scum, but furthermore, you've dodged my questions until now. Why? If you can so simply answer them now, why didn't you do it before? You clearly saw them, acknowledged them, but didn't answer them. Instead, you said you were done with me.
Going to have to look over all this in more depth tomorrow as I'm getting tired and need to wind down.
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@Rad
Ok, I understand your concern now. But you are extrapolating a little what I have been saying.
I don't remember saying I wouldn't change my mind regardless of the argument.
I personally think that you are according to much importance to this point. In my eyes, this argument was irrelevant. Please tell me what could be my motivation as scum to not agree with dandel on this particular point. You are concentrating on the form of my speech while you should concentrate on the content of my speech.
Concerning the "confidence" ordeal, it was to help the newbies and to counter your "lurker policy" ordeal.
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I'll be back in here tomorrow to read this stuff in depth. I can't concentrate worth shit right now. Beddy bye time!
@Inig
Get in here and discuss Djo's case on you
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@everyone who still wants to lynch a lurker
Let's make the hypothesis that Oastmaster, imcasey and Roco are going to get modkilled today for not voting.
Who would you like to lynch today and why ?
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On October 26 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote:
Why we should lynch Inig
First of all, I would like you to read Inig's filter before you read this case. It's not going to take you long time and you should also make your own opinion by yourself. I would like to lynch Inig for the following reasons
- Total lack of scumhunting
- Emotionally detached from this game
- Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument
Total lack of scumhunting+ Show Spoiler +Even if he is claiming that he has done some scumhunting, Inig has not given us any scumread and has asked a total of two questions to other players. He is not putting pressure or anyone or trying to understand the motives of anyone. On October 25 2012 15:39 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Ah yes i see, the 'why' is more important than the 'what'. Excellent, Sylver answer Djo when u wake up. On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me?
-Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. As you can see, he is not really committing, even when he asks some questions. When I'm reading Inig's filter, I have the feeling that he is spectating this game and not a part of it. This is a characteristic of mafia players. He tries to look active by telling us what is going on in the thread in his view but he is not giving us extra information. This post is a perfect example of such an empty posing style. On October 25 2012 15:27 Inigmaticalism wrote:I have a thought regarding the Rad-Debears argument, over the whole 'confidence' thing. Its possible Im wrong, but it seems that Rad views the world in a more 'logical' way, meaning that in this case (playing mafia) having sound logic and scum reads will naturally result in confidence from said logic. Debears may happen to be more 'emotional', in this case where having a strong will/confidence allows for people like him (and me) to be very logical when there is a strong emotional base beneath them. You've both brought up the pros and cons about each type of viewpoint, so it should be beneficial if you guys watch out for each other. It seems you've both explained what you meant fairly well, and Im especially glad to see this post from you Rad cause I was getting slightly worried. Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 14:11 Rad wrote:
EBWOP - I also agree that there's no point in lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. That's not what I said originally but is what he's trying to make it seem like I said. Ha just saw you summed up my analysis for me: Show nested quote +You're pushing for "have confidence, the scum will show" while I'm pushing for "find the scum, if you're confident push it, otherwise we should lynch lurker". That stance seems completely reasonable to me. Does it not to you? @ sylver You seem fairly energetic. Also, don't really think "What's your favorite role to play in mafia?" keeps us all that focused on scum hunting, but as it may be some clever scheme of yours Ill bite. ......Well actually I won't because I realized I was typing how I play the game. How clever. Loaded question indeed. This is the most incriminating point in my opinion. Please have a careful look at the following part from Ini in bold font. On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote:
/snip
As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-finding, but thats how its gone. Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I would never have posted such an awkward response if I was mafia, I would have simply ignored the question all together, but it seems no one took it that way. How can you show that you are town by not answering question ? Why does he bring something like this up ? Mafia players usually try to get as much town cred as they can, for whatever weird reason. I think he knows his reason to claim town are bad and that's why he is backing it up by a WIFOM argument.
Alright here we go.
1. I deny nothing about not scum hunting. I have only had time to read the thread, and have found town looking players: debears, rad, djo(tho im not sure anymore, more on that later). As I said, I will have time in a few days to do proper scum hunting. If you feel that is not a risk worth taking, so be it. Ill give my scum hunting/reading in my next post.
-And, if your going to pull out reasons to lynch me based not on what I have done, but what I havent done, then perhaps you should also look at Oats and Imcasey who havent scumhunted OR contributed (or at least tried) Or posted at all.
2. Ha I am anything BUT emotionally detached from this game. In fact, Ive been getting so emotional I dont think I can or should play mafia games and just go back to watching/reading them. All the logical things I want to say and rules I want to follow fly out the window, and its dumb. Here is Mr cheesecake calling me out on it:
On October 26 2012 13:02 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
And to respond to Djodref, since he is always asking about people's reads on Inig.
On Inig: The only two things I find suspicious about him are
A.) Him throwing a tantrum over the WIFOM incident. "This argument is stupid" etc.
I actually almost rage-quit and threw out on-purpose made-up scumslips and such, so I just got to working on homework and stepped away. Im not sure why you said im emotionally detached. Very odd. But you are right about spectating. In the particular post you quoted of mine, I was attempting to get Rad and Debears to drop their argument because it had shown me they were town and should therefore work together. Course they ignored me and kept on arguing policies and confidences and whatnot. So your accusation is false, unless you leave off the word 'emotional'.
3. Gaining town credit. I am going to split this definition so I can understand what you mean. I put that there originally to be a flag that I was town, for ppl to pick up on. Then cause no one got it or was simply silent about it, I used it as a defense, and then it became a WIFOM, or so im told. I understand a little better how WIFOM works cause I didnt know before (ironically it was you Djo who told me so) but Im probably still going to mess that up again in the future. So ya I used a WIFOM argument. I originally wanted (before the wifom) to gain town 'status' by showing I was town.
Now town credit would certainly come by that. I see town credit as town standing, as in how much people listen to you. I actually think since you are the first one to bring this up you are a lot more interested in it. You can believe I was trying to get town credit all you want, but what would I use it for? What cases do I have to push? None. Even if I did get town credit, it would have been of no use to me, and it still isnt of any use to me now.
And to put it out there in case I wasnt clear, I am a Vanilla Townie. "Ya, sure, everyones a town, etc". I know I wouldnt believe the claim I just made up front either. Im just letting you know Im not gonna come out with some crazy blue claim or cry for medic support later on. No tricks here.
Last, I found a some fun information on Djo:
On October 26 2012 13:12 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 12:18 debears wrote:@DjoDo you believe that Inig fits the category of lurker? His filter is less than a page. On October 26 2012 10:15 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 10:08 Clarity_nl wrote:So.... you're trying to get a strong response by asking what Alsn thinks Inig, which he has done to two other people before him. So what's the reason you brushed off his FoS? On October 26 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote:
@debears
You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard"
Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard.
You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day.
You are advocating chaos.
If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything.
##FoS debears @ClarityI don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy for mafia to avoid a policy lynch. By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ? What do you think of Inig ? On October 26 2012 02:04 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 01:45 Dandel Ion wrote:On October 26 2012 01:42 Djodref wrote:@RadMy comments in red in your quoted post. On October 26 2012 01:28 Rad wrote:On October 26 2012 01:21 debears wrote:
Ok. But what individually makes us stand out as scum?
I'm going to reread the thread a couple of times tonight and figure this all out.
##Unvote This is some of what I've got from you and/or djo 1. Pushed the confidence theme hard, as if to make it seem like we NEED to have a scum lynch d1 rather than a policy lurker lynch. FUUUUUuuu. You are doing it again. Policy lynching is just an option and it is a bad option in my opinion because mafia can avoid it easily, especially when town decides to apply this strategy from the beginning. Lynching a suspicious player get us more chances to lynch mafia. We should start to scumhunt in order to do so, not throwing FoS at each other for disagreeing over policy.2. Acted overconfident as if it was easy to make a scum read on d1 (is it? doesn't seem like it, and that's not due to lack of confidence, it's due to lack of information). I'm not saying it is easy, I'm saying it is totally possible and you should have this mentality rather than the policy lynch solution mentality. Would you like to comment about Inig by the way ?3. Twisted people's statements, either responding with something that had nothing to do with the original statement, or focusing heavily on a particular statement as if to give it more importance than it really should have. Please be more specificAll of these things feel scummy to me. You don't get it. You establish a lurker-lynch policy early. Potential lurkers see it and go all "oh shit if I lurk I'm gonna die" So they don't lurk. If you say "nah I'm completely against lynching lurkers" or "We should lynch the most active people" What do lurkers do when they see that? They'll tell themselves "cool, I'm set" And then they lurk. I'm not against a policy lynch but I think it would be better to bring it up when the right time comes (like 6 hours before the lynch ? anyway at a time we can finally identify some serious lurker). Taking an early decision against or for policy lynches is just going to help mafia to use this decision on their favor. Anyway, a lot of people seem to favor a policy lynch for today. I'm not going to go against it but I would appreciate these people to get into super scumhunting mode right now. I'm not going to forgive laziness at all, especially if you are supporting a policy lynch. By the way, what do you think about Inig ? On October 26 2012 08:25 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 02:40 Alsn wrote:
My reasons for thinking Djodref is slightly scummy so far is that he is asking a lot of questions. That in itself isn't particularly scummy(in fact, done right it's pro-town as it pressures people into sharing their opinions and such).
The problem I have with it so far is that you keep asking people to answer you, yet your own statements so far amount to picking on the people who are being lurky(Ini, Roco) while at the same time criticising Rad for supporting lurker policy lynch?! This makes no sense to me. This in combination with the slip leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself look good by being active. I can definitely see the possibility of there being town motivations for your actions so far, but I'd just like to point out that I have my eye on you.
So, with that in mind, FoS Djodref.
I'll see if I can't take a look at some of the other things said so far before I go to bed but if not, I'll do it first thing tomorrow as I will have a lot more time then. @AlsnI would expect more from you than an half-assed FoS on me  What do you think about Inig ? Honestly, I don't really care if Alsn has a FoS on me if it is for the reasons he has stated in his post. I know he is totally able to come at me with something more consistent if he really thinks I'm scum. Right now, I think his reasons are poor and I'm more interested in his opinion about Ini. Djo, why would Alsn be able to come up with something consistent if he thought you were scum? This sounds like scum with a guilty conscience. Scum know they are guilty. Their posts are made with the intention to mislead town, meaning that they know that traces of their deception are in their own posts. If you were townie, you would feel that your filter is not filled with scummy things, since you would be honest and sincere. This post definitely does not give that read of honesty. @debearsI think Inig fits the category of a semi-lurker trying to blend in. I don't like them much. Regarding Alsn, him lurking like this is not fitting his town meta at all. I'm quite suspicious of him at the moment. Moreover, I'm expecting a town Alsn to give more reasons for FoS me. I'm just trying to push him to check if his FoS was faked or not.
Which means that Djo is voting because he thinks I am a semi-lurker, not because I am scum. He does however clarify better here:
On October 26 2012 14:02 Djodref wrote:
I have asked questions to many people, not only Inig and Roco. This is a misrepresentation of the reality. It's true that I'm focusing a lot on Inig but it's because I think he is scum. That's why I want people to give their thoughts about him.
Criticizing Rad for his support of lurker policy lynch doesn't mean I don't want to lynch a lurker. I don't want to protect the lurkers or anything like that. I just don't want us to use blindly the policy lynch or to rely on it too much. If a lurker is scummy enough (like Inig in my eyes), I would lynch him for being scummy, nor for the policy.
I think your FoS is forced by the way...
So then he does say he thinks I am scum. So all I really want you to clarify Djo is whether you think I am actually scum, or am just the scummiest looking semi-lurker. If its the latter, based on what youve said at the beginning of the game that doesnt fit you. I would want to have more solid proof of scum. Although it is day 1 so....
I would label Djo as like 70% town. Hes been consistent and contributing. I think hes gone after me too long to be mafia. He has talked an awful lot though. Its probably more likely, with all his questions and style of scumhunting, thats hes a vigi or SK or something like that, seeing who he can get lynched (who he thinks is scum if hes vigi, etc), and then who he cant hes found his night targets. Just a thought.
Fun facts:
-Djo labeled me and Dandel as scumteam in pre-game
*Personally with all his questions I think Djo is trying to get all his friends to tell him about me cause he secretly wants to date me 
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Ok, here is what I have to say regarding your case against me. Please find my comments in bold font in the spoilers.
On October 26 2012 12:03 debears wrote:Ok guys I'm back. Got a few things to post. So, I'll start with a scumread. After rereading the thread. One person came out pretty suspicious, Djo. Defending Me/Town read on me+ Show Spoiler +As you have started to put early pressure on some players with FoS and wrote a case against Rad, I felt that you were very involved in this game and committing to scumhunt. That were some nice early town tells for me, even if I did not mention it. I also made some post to precise what you were saying because I felt there was some misunderstanding about what you were saying. I wouldn't call this defending you, I did it to promote a better atmosphere. Here Djo restates an answer that I had already posted to a question addressed to me On October 25 2012 13:18 Djodref wrote:
@Rad
Debears solved us the game last time (NMM XVIII) with his case on SDM, the last mafia player we had to find. He was going to be mislynched but he didn't gave up and was still looking for the last mafia while he had everyone against him.
It's important to believe in your ability to find the mafia. If not, you are just going to look desperate if people start a bandwagon against you. Also it is going to reduce your tendency to sheep and I think that sheeping happens a lot in the newbie games although it is really bad for town.
Why is Djo defending me at this point? There is no way he can have a town read on me at that point, unless he is scum and he knows I'm town. Think about it 1) Town do not know who is scum. Since they don't know who is, they won't know if they are defending a scum early game 2) He feels the urge to jump to my defense way early in the game when I am answering the questions myself 2) He is restating what I had already said. I had already mentioned the SDM case from last game. Yet, he feels the need to bring it up again to defend me. I'm not defending you at that point, I'm rephrasing what you were saying because I felt that Rad had misunderstood you.Later, Clarity makes a post accusing me On October 26 2012 01:21 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote:
@debears
You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard"
Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard.
You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day.
You are advocating chaos.
If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything.
##FoS debears @ClarityI don't think that debears is advocating chaos. In my point of view, he is certainly promoting discussion. We could as well being still discussing policy lynches if he wasn't here. And please remind that it's quite easy for mafia to avoid a policy lynch. By the way, do you believe that we can lynch a scum on D1 ? What do you think of Inig ? Djo once agains heads to my defense. Note that Djo has not stated anywhere yet that he has a town read on me. At this point, I defend you because I was starting to have a town read on you. Clarity's post reminded me the posts from the newbies last game who were saying you were trying to disrupt the town when you were only scumhunting.Finally, he defends me in his 2 next posts with a somewhat townie read On October 26 2012 01:27 Djodref wrote:
Guys, please remind that people who are taking strong stances (or weird stances like Roco) stand out. Mafia players usually don't want to stand out. Right now, I'm not very worried about a scum debears or a scum Rad.
I would be more worried about a scum Inig for expample. The kind of players who are in the thread without really participating, if you know what I mean... Not worried about me being scum = at least a null read on me. The next post. I had a town read on you at that point. Not totally sure but I think it is less likely to find mafia players among the most active posters.On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:24 debears wrote:On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote:
@debears
You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard"
Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard.
You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day.
You are advocating chaos.
If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything.
##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game  I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time.debears <3 Now, he finally states he has "townie vibes", yet he has been defending me since well early on. And then he backs his defense of me as retribution for last game. Defending himself for no reason with bad reasoning? That's scummy. Yeah, that's bad reasoning, but it is truly how I feel. You look like your town self and people are attacking you for the same stupid reasons than last time.Now, see what happens to the town read he has at this point been 1) exemplifying thru his defense of me and 2) by the last two posts I quoted. On October 26 2012 01:57 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:36 Rad wrote:On October 26 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 01:24 debears wrote:On October 26 2012 01:10 Clarity_nl wrote:
@debears
You've used the word confidence an excessive amount of times. When someone mentioned day 1 policy lynches you immediately dismissed the idea. In fact, whenever anyone suggested something you turned it down, pushing your idea of "if you have a read, push it hard"
a
Policy lynching on day 1 exists for a reason. Lurkers hurt the town, whether they are mafia or town. If no one takes action mafia will win. Town needs to be organized and decisive, yet you are suggesting to basically follow your gut and push hard.
You follow that up by voting for Rad WAAAAAAY too early in the day.
You are advocating chaos.
If something is fishy, or a comment seems off, make a read or ask a question about it, but big bold statements like "be confident guys!!!" don't actually mean anything.
##FoS debears Do you see the contradiction in that statment clarity/ You want town to be decisive, yet when I am (by pursuing a scumread) you FOS me for it? Are you reading the damn thread? The confidence thing isn't my only contribution. Figure it out Ugh Djo Y u answering questions addressed to me??? I'm still feeling bad for tunneling until death last game I even didn't have the balls to state that I had changed my mind about you at the end. As I feel some townie vibes from you in this game, I thought I could at least defend you this one time. debears <3 Also debears it's stuff like this (which he's done before in this thread, if I remember correctly) that just make me raise an eyebrow and give thoughts that you're both scum. He's so confident you're town already?! Because you're being super active and aggressive? Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'm finding it really hard to believe anyone is town so far. @Djo, you're coming across, to me at least, as very "happy go lucky". Like, you've figured it all out as town last newbie game, and you're back now as town again but 100% more confident and ready to take down scum! Let's do this my friend debears, who is clearly also town! That's the vibe I'm getting from you and it feels really fake. @RadLast game newbie game I was totally wrong with all my reads. But I'm not going to let it affect my faith in my ability to find scum. Moreover, even if I'm wrong, I'm giving mafia less room to hide if I take strong a clear stances about some players. I don't have strong scumread at the moment but I would prefer to confront people in a very direct way if I start to be suspicious of them. Because that's how I think I can generate the most useful information. It seems natural for you but it wasn't at all in my previous newbie game, so I want to encourage people to have this state of mind. This is all I'm thinking about when I'm talking about confidence (so it's not exactly confidence in your reads). On a side note, if you have understood that I've called debears town, I think you have misinterpreted my post . Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town. It's a feeling I have from I read in his post (similar to the last game we have played together where he was townie) and his general behavior in his game.Believe or not, being aggressive like this early game benefits town. Because it allows us to have constructed discussion... "Feeling townie vibes from someone doesn't mean I consider him as town". What does this mean??????? So I'm townie to you but not at the same time? This is a weak statement that is a contradiction in a mafia-oriented way to his play. By saying that I have townie vibes but am not town is keeping a door open for suddenly accusing me later. Who wants to keep an open door for sudden accusation on any person in the game? Mafia. I don't have much things to say at this point. I fucked up. I was not sure at first about Rad and your case convinced me. But after this I've realized that it was not really likely for a scum player to start such a fight and post so much. Rad is also looking involded in this game and he is doing his part of scumhunting, even if I find that he is doing it the wrong way.Before my Rad case, here's what Djo had to say On October 25 2012 15:48 Djodref wrote:
@debears
I've re-read the thread and I think that dandel and Rad are strong supporters of policy lynches for lurking. It's not a scumtell for me. I understand that you could be strongly against policy lynches given our experience ^^
The problem I see with this is people getting lazy and rely on a policy lynch for today. That's why I personally think it would be better to bring up the possibility for a policy lynch when we can tell for sure that lurking is plaguing us. This is his very next post On October 25 2012 17:20 Djodref wrote:
Nice case, I need to discuss a little more with rad before voting him. So now, he suddenly thinks that Rad's stance on policy is a scum tell? He doesn't cite any parts of my case. Yet, he is thinking about voting Rad. Note - "I need to discuss a little more with rad before voting him" implies that he found scumminess in Rad enough to think of voting Rad. And guess what? He doesn't really talk to Rad. He goes off on Ini and Roco while talking to Dauoud. Instead, he posts this later On October 26 2012 01:01 Djodref wrote:
@sylver
I've explained why I've answered this question ("are you mafia") already. Could you please re-read my filter and tell me if you are satisfied or not with my explanations ?
I don't care if I look clean or not, my principal concern is to find the mafia. And, for your information, I'm not tunneling you, just putting you under some pressure. The only player I have a FoS on is Inig as for now.
I'm accepting your explanations and I would like you to tell us what you think about Inig. I'm insisting on him because mafia players have this tendency to semi-lurk while looking like they contribute.
Regarding Rad, I'm trusting debears to take care of him right now ^^ I'm following their exchanges with great interest. He's "trusting me to take care of Rad". Wow. Why the disinterest in pursuing him? Why is he willing to lay back and let me take the reins on accusing him? Why would a townie want another townie to "take care of" pursuing someone? Scum, on the other hand, want townies to do the dirty work for them. Another thing - the word trust implies that Djo thinks or knows I'm town. It's a slip, not a scumslip. I was referring to a game where I knew daoud was town. So I wrote my sentence having this in mind. Hence the slip. On October 25 2012 18:25 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 18:09 da0ud wrote:On October 25 2012 17:52 Djodref wrote:
I'm insisting on this because it was not my mentality at all at the beginning of NMMXVIII, you case see this in my quotes in debear previous posts. I want the "scared" newbies (like daoud) to boost their confidence and go scumhunt. I am not scared anymore... And I will hunt you down this time if I have to daoudGood ! I'm not planning on defending you this game so I expect you to do your job as town What's your take on the Rad-debears argument by the way? Note how different his approach to Dauod is to me? He willingly defends me, yet doesn't want to defend dauod. Why? Here he implies that Dauod is town early in the game. He plays it off as bad word choice, yet there are other things in his filter that imply extra information. Notably, the stuff I mentioned before on his actions which indicate that he thinks/knows I'm town despite him claiming that he doesn't think I'm town. FOS DjoDjo, what do you have to say. Most importantly on the subject of your actions which indicate that you think/know i'm town yet you saying that you don't think I am
Right now, I think you are town. Not 100% convinced but I would say 70%. You are doing a good job at scumhunting and you really look like your town self. The slip was unfortunate and I think I'm providing good explanation for it: you have to look at the context of the sentence.
Regarding Rad, I've spoken too fast and I've changed my mind about him.
One last thing I would like to say is that I'm also involving myself in this game. I've spent a lot of time defending myself and I've explained why I think that Inig would be a good lynch target for today.
If you need more details or if you are not satisfied with my explanations, please come back to me.
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Also, I now have some suspicion on Cheesecake. I like pretty much every post hes given actually, except this one:
On October 26 2012 08:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 07:42 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Oh ok. Guess Ill not try to make myself look like a townie in the thread. Might get mistaken as WIFOM.
So then what would be a wifom defense vs a non wifom defense? You can argue anything that way a long as you dont like it. I find just about every argument/case presented so far to be stupid and pointless.
I'm not sure how to comprehend this answer. Inig is obviously very distressed, as he's discrediting everything by calling it blatantly "stupid and pointless". Either he doesn't know how to form a coherent response to an accusation or is cracking under pressure. I don't like the response at all. With him going afk after this, I'm beginning to get suspicious of him.
Oh ya and look cheese also calls me out about being emotional and freaking out in thread. His arguments good too, although I wish he put in a 'outside mafia influences' reason as well, but thats fine. I actually have found cheese to be more likely town than I said djo was, so this is why I called this out.
-This point is not doing anything other than saying he read it. Like my earlier posts, it doesnt really contribute at all, doesnt really push me either except in the most indirect of ways.
-The 'Im beginning to get suspicious of" me. Ive re-read my own filter. Cheese you should already be suspicious of me, not beginning to be. Ive barely been pro-town at all.
-While those points are fun and are probably included in numerous posts in this game, I call it out because it seems like Cheese is simply trying to look good by joining a case that had potential to go somewhere (and so far has). I think what Im trying to say is that I read it and then after re-reading it I realized it had 0 content, but it looked like it did. No treally a scum-tell, but I guess I saw it because it seemed different than his other posts.
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@Inig
Thanks for your post. I have to look more into it but I need to tell you that what I call town credit, you understand it as town status. So I was accusing you at wanting to gain town status.
WIFOM is a shorcut to say that you are speculating too much on what a mafia player would do or not. Mafia players love to produce fake arguments using WIFOM
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Oh ok ya, so then your 3rd argument is correct. My thoughts were : "If I was not able to find or given strong scum reads, next best thing is try to build up the confirmed town." I thought that was good, is it bad? Or just how I went about trying?
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Also, I need to go to sleep and have an exam tomorrow, which means I am looking at being able to arrive and be active in thread about an hour to an hour-and-a-half b4 lynch tomorrow, hopefully having had time to at least read the current state of the thread a few hours before I become active, (before my exam). In short: I will be here for lynch tomorrow, at the very least informed on the status and cases of players made in the thread so I can vote appropriately. Downside is beyond that I will have no time for any of my own scumhunts for day 1 (hence why I said I would be able to become more active for our Day2). I will be around for a little while longer if someone needs to ask me anything, then after that see you around lynching time.
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@Ini
Could you tell me who you would like to lynch if you were unable to lynch any of the lurkers ?
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If I couldnt lynch any lurkers I really wouldnt want to lynch, but we have to.
-Asln has posts (if im right) 3 posts so far. Almost just says 'Im here', but at least he contributes something (FOS at you mostly). I would want to vote for him later simply because he actually said something.
-Sylvers interesting because he has tried to be helpful in his own way (role-hunting, player list repost), but once we made him clarify what he was doing hes been silent. Discouraged townie or having a hard time finding fact stuff to post? Really not sure.
-Roco has 2 posts and says nothing. Yeah, policy stuff, but really policy stuff can be said at one time and then the player can vote however they really want to vote later. Once again, maybe townie shut down once he voiced his opinion? Cept hes scummier to me since he doesnt say anything. Roco and Asln, post a few more posts! They can be real simple, just give 1 or a few scum-reads and a few reasons/facts to back them up. Its ok if they rip you apart, they did me, its about getting some more info/different insight out there for town.
-Dandel may be my biggest strong scum read. Its funny, most people go after those who post lots and those who post little, not those who post a decent amount(cheesecake, dandel) or not at all(oats, imcasey). Hes been fairly active, pushing different discussions here and there, nothing too major, thats what Ive been doing. Then he takes up a case against Roco, and not only is Roco probably the easiest target to target, but he doesnt even get real serious about it. He FOS to make it LOOk strong, but explains why hes being soft about it here:
On October 25 2012 19:23 Dandel Ion wrote:
@Roco:
Are you planning to lurk? (by your posts, it doesn't look like you plan on being active)
Care to explain to me how (probably) lurking yourself and lynching the most active players will help you find scum?
Also, answer Djo's questions pls. (especially the second one)
Until he manages to clarify that:
##FoS Roco
I know it's possible he's just... well, a noob, that's why I didn't straight up vote for him. In my first game, I suggested a No-lynch day1 (though I'd like to think that I was more logical about it)
But remember that we talked about playing the "newbie-card" in the beginning?
Same goes for other people. I get a scummy feel off Roco, and I'm not going to ignore it because it's his first game.
He also says how hes not going to let Roco slide, and thats exactly what hes done. Not one mention of Roco in the few posts hes made after that. And he seems to talk to all the semi-lurkers and Djo. Not sure if thats anything important, but Ill keep it in mind.
THEN he tries to start EVEN MORE policy discussion, again, in my own words, "stupid (because I was frustrated) and pointless." Contributing to killing time rather than scum-hunting. No attempt to explain why not either, just getting everyones policy straight is "important":
On October 25 2012 21:29 Dandel Ion wrote:
Now what do you think about:
Lurker policy
Other policy
Your thoughts on the developments in this thread so far
Not only you, but other people should address those 3 things too.
Talking about policy is not exciting, I know, but we don't have much else to talk about right now, and I'd really prefer everyone to take a definite stance on things earlier instead of later.
Like I said, because you can simply change your stance and have wonderful excuses like "of course Id lynch scum over my policy, duh" or whatever, its wasted time. Not only does it look like its a pro-town move, but I would think mafia would benefit more from town knowing how people were going to vote. Swing lynches easier. (And that BETTER NOT be wifom. Cause I think its a darn good idea).
- I am most willing to Vote for Dandel, and if I have any time for more scumhunting, it will be on you dan. Please feel free to reply to this so I can think about what to do before lynch-time.
-Mr. CC I like his style a lot, and have thought he was very townie. However, I need to actually read what hes said just like I just did to dandel to see if its content or fluff, but I REALLY need to sleep, so I cant. One of you lurkers (or someone), take up this job while Im lurking between now and lynch-time. Otherwise Ill get to it Day2 if Im still alive. The only thing against him is the post I made a few posts up about him giving me a seriously stern 'look', where its almost like he defends and attacks me at the same time. So....interesting.
-Da0ud is somewhere among my roco dandel alsn (discounting no posters) list, but I honestly have no idea what hes said, and without knowing this knowledge I would be uncomfortable voting for him right now.
-And that leaves the rest of you Ive made the risky leap of faith to label as townies for now: Djo, rad, debears, and Mr CC depending on what he says and when I read all his stuff.
I am very hesitant to do this, but I think I will have plenty of time to change my vote.
I would vote for you right now Dandel, and will do so at the end of the day if you fail to answer any of my questions, but while we wait for your responses I want to poke for more information.
##Vote: imcasey
Tell me why I should not vote for you.
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Well whadayaknow Djo, you got me to scum hunt even though I really dont have the time too, although I am glad with what I found. Im going to sleep.
A last note because I will show up 'late to the party': If someone is getting lynched and there is no one else close to getting lynched, AND there is little to NO resistance for the lynch of that particular player, something is wrong. Scum can just sit back and watch it happen, supah ez, cause its most likely a townie. If it was a scum getting lynched, the scum team is going to try to sway the vote however they can, directly or indirectly. Unless of course, the one being lynched made an obvious scumslip and was caught, then disregard this whole thought.
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I forgot to mention I really want/need to actually read what all you 'prbly townies' Ive labeled have actually said over the second half of the thread, because right now I dont have a clue about what your arguing about (lol sorry). BUT, I dont know why but I have a feeling that 1 of the people I think are town are actually mafia. Truely no one specific, but one of you. Its probably my logic saying its too good to be true that all top posters with the biggest filters are towns. I think only deaths can really solve this theory, as some will inevitably die and some will inevitably live.
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I'm here, I'm here.
There are (or were, at least) some suspicions of Alsn based on his meta, and I just want to weigh in with this:
He said he has college entrace exams tomorrow.
Assuming that's true (and I see no reason why it shouldn't be), that explains his absence. You gotta learn for things like that.
Just to say, I'm not going to be up for an Alan lynch today, in case somebody actually planned to do that. His posts were not scummy so far, and the only argument against him could be meta. Which, in light of this, is not a good argument even. We can revisit this if he still plays like that after Saturday.
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EPT
