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On October 01 2012 04:01 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 02:57 Snowbear wrote:
Just standard 1gate FE into 6:30 4gate bust would kill this, or put the terran very hard behind. But that's just my opinion. Nice build tough! 4-gates are possible to hold, but difficult; the real kicker is a heavy Immortal bust or Void-ray all-in. Denying the Protoss scout is absolutely key. The best way to do it is to show him the Concussive Shells without showing him the Tech Lab, because it really does look like 2-rax Concussive then. For example, deny the Probe with the early 2nd depot and Marine (shooing him away or killing him before starting the TL), then once the Protoss pokes, try to hit the Stalker and/or Zealot with the Concussive Marauder before they get to your ramp (assuming a very standard Zealot/Stalker map control play - if not, you're fine, because the Protoss doesn't get to scout you without a Stalker until they get Observers, and at that point, it's too late). At that point it is impossible for the Protoss to say for certain that it isn't a 2-rax with Concussive Shells (although he MIGHT try to guess it isn't based on the only 2-3 Marine count at that point). You can fake a slight bit of pressure by just moving out to the watchtower as if you want to push his FE. As someone has already said, the default 2-rax response of "get a bunch of Sentries and Gateway units to defend" pretty much auto-loses because the Protoss doesn't tech, and doesn't get a third base quickly, while you already have 3 bases and by the time the Protoss realizes it isn't 2-rax, you have enough defense and are already teching yourself. Again, this isn't a solid every game ladder build just because certain types of busts and all-ins will wreck it (Immortal bust and Void-ray all-in are the primary threats), but is very good in BofX scenarios because the mind games are elevated to a new level of importance there. Too, this isn't as popular as the more common 3CC builds, which allows it to be a doubly surprising weapon. Another note: if your scouting SCV gets there and does his little dance, finding no expansion by 5:00, it's going to get rough, and you should NOT drop the natural CC yet. Cluster the Marine/Marauder ball at the top of the ramp, and get a couple of Bunkers. Ride out the pressure, and you will be absolutely leagues ahead of the Protoss.
I was talking about a 2base 4gate, which arrives around 6:30. This is not a 1base play!
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On October 01 2012 04:33 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 04:01 Jazzman88 wrote:On October 01 2012 02:57 Snowbear wrote:
Just standard 1gate FE into 6:30 4gate bust would kill this, or put the terran very hard behind. But that's just my opinion. Nice build tough! 4-gates are possible to hold, but difficult; the real kicker is a heavy Immortal bust or Void-ray all-in. Denying the Protoss scout is absolutely key. The best way to do it is to show him the Concussive Shells without showing him the Tech Lab, because it really does look like 2-rax Concussive then. For example, deny the Probe with the early 2nd depot and Marine (shooing him away or killing him before starting the TL), then once the Protoss pokes, try to hit the Stalker and/or Zealot with the Concussive Marauder before they get to your ramp (assuming a very standard Zealot/Stalker map control play - if not, you're fine, because the Protoss doesn't get to scout you without a Stalker until they get Observers, and at that point, it's too late). At that point it is impossible for the Protoss to say for certain that it isn't a 2-rax with Concussive Shells (although he MIGHT try to guess it isn't based on the only 2-3 Marine count at that point). You can fake a slight bit of pressure by just moving out to the watchtower as if you want to push his FE. As someone has already said, the default 2-rax response of "get a bunch of Sentries and Gateway units to defend" pretty much auto-loses because the Protoss doesn't tech, and doesn't get a third base quickly, while you already have 3 bases and by the time the Protoss realizes it isn't 2-rax, you have enough defense and are already teching yourself. Again, this isn't a solid every game ladder build just because certain types of busts and all-ins will wreck it (Immortal bust and Void-ray all-in are the primary threats), but is very good in BofX scenarios because the mind games are elevated to a new level of importance there. Too, this isn't as popular as the more common 3CC builds, which allows it to be a doubly surprising weapon. Another note: if your scouting SCV gets there and does his little dance, finding no expansion by 5:00, it's going to get rough, and you should NOT drop the natural CC yet. Cluster the Marine/Marauder ball at the top of the ramp, and get a couple of Bunkers. Ride out the pressure, and you will be absolutely leagues ahead of the Protoss. I was talking about a 2base 4gate, which arrives around 6:30. This is not a 1base play!
Ah, my mistake. 2-base 4-gate? There are so many much better responses to a build like this than 4-gate pressure off of an FE. As far as I see in the latest pro games, there is nothing 'standard' about busting with 4 gates after 1-gate FE. 3-gate Robo Immortal busts, 6-gate Sentry all-ins, and the 3 Colossi Squirtle timing are all much more common and deadlier than 4 gates. At 6:30 with this build you will be able to have at least 1 Bunker, 2 if you are nervous and scouting properly. 2 Bunkers plus the 3 OCs should hold anything that's coming off of 4 gates, I would think. Keep in mind you can also take quite a few SCV losses in order to throw back the Protoss because you're on 3OC and he's on 2 base, plus if he forgoes his Robo to go 4 gates, his tech is SO far behind that he'll never catch up unless he kills you now.
Do you have replays of a Protoss going 4 gates after FE so that I can see how much stuff the opponent is capable of getting? The very first game I ever played on ladder with this the Protoss went 3 or 4 gates immediately after his expansion and I crushed him.
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Is it possible to do this opening, but with just one CC. Or is the 1 rax FE superior to a such opening?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 01 2012 18:45 Ordien wrote:
Is it possible to do this opening, but with just one CC. Or is the 1 rax FE superior to a such opening?
Kas does this build with one CC, and gets more marauders: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303159
However, typically a 1 Rax FE comes out earlier and is less vulnerable to void ray attacks, which is why it is a much more common build at almost all levels of play. It can't attack in the same way, though.
The 1 rax concussive pressure build is basically what this build scouts as, which is why it's so fun. Against a normal 1 rrx concussive pressure, protoss basically has to camp out in his own base until he has more units, so by faking it and not making a lot of marauders, as terran you can get a quick 3rd CC and get ahead.
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Flash actually make a supply depot after the command centers. Just wanted to point out. Wasnt said in the build orders. Tnx for the awsome guide. pls make more of these <3
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Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle.
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On October 03 2012 17:42 MateShade wrote:
Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle.
If you remember to come off gas you should be able to afford it, without cutting army or workers
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On October 03 2012 17:42 MateShade wrote:
Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle.
It is VERY tight. Notice in the pic (I have the production tab open), that I have the 3rd CC just started, 1 SCV almost done, nothing coming out of the Barracks, and 45 minerals. In the next couple of seconds, I am going to start a Marine and an SCV as soon as the minerals permit. There may be a slight hiccup in production, but there is no intentional 'cutting' of anything. Build what the minerals allow, never queuing up more than 1 SCV or Barracks unit at a time, and it should just barely slip in there. The tough choice comes just after this with the Bunker/3rd Depot placement and choice. If you absolutely want to squeeze out both the Bunker and Barracks 2/3 as quickly as possible, you can permit a slight supply block at 27 for a few seconds, using CC#2 as a ersatz depot, which will take you to 38 supply once finished.
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Thanks for the write up. The voidray defense section made me lol - all terrans have been there. It feels so hopeless but when I outmicro a void all in I feel like $1,000,000!
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On October 03 2012 22:02 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 17:42 MateShade wrote:
Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle. It is VERY tight. Notice in the pic (I have the production tab open), that I have the 3rd CC just started, 1 SCV almost done, nothing coming out of the Barracks, and 45 minerals. In the next couple of seconds, I am going to start a Marine and an SCV as soon as the minerals permit. There may be a slight hiccup in production, but there is no intentional 'cutting' of anything. Build what the minerals allow, never queuing up more than 1 SCV or Barracks unit at a time, and it should just barely slip in there. The tough choice comes just after this with the Bunker/3rd Depot placement and choice. If you absolutely want to squeeze out both the Bunker and Barracks 2/3 as quickly as possible, you can permit a slight supply block at 27 for a few seconds, using CC#2 as a ersatz depot, which will take you to 38 supply once finished.
I just did a dry run of it, as instructed with no cuts at all, and I got very supply blocked, here is the replay, let me know if I'm missing something because currently my situation is not the same as yours, and I executed this pretty much 99% well
http://drop.sc/261046
cheers!
Edit: Just added another one, sneaking in the CC before that scv and marine as you said, 'slightly' cutting them, you actually still get supply blocked for a good 10 seconds, it just doesn't seem very efficient at all either way
http://drop.sc/261048
In the first version with no cuts, you get supply blocked for 25 seconds
In the second version, you have to cut scvs for 7 seconds, and marines for 12 (or vice versa), you then get supply blocked for 12 seconds
This could either be a) me, b) something isnt quite right or c) the build is intended like that (in which case i think its significant enough to note this in your guide, after doing the build as instructed and getting a 25sec supply block i mighten't be the only one)
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On October 04 2012 00:30 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 22:02 Jazzman88 wrote:On October 03 2012 17:42 MateShade wrote:
Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle. It is VERY tight. Notice in the pic (I have the production tab open), that I have the 3rd CC just started, 1 SCV almost done, nothing coming out of the Barracks, and 45 minerals. In the next couple of seconds, I am going to start a Marine and an SCV as soon as the minerals permit. There may be a slight hiccup in production, but there is no intentional 'cutting' of anything. Build what the minerals allow, never queuing up more than 1 SCV or Barracks unit at a time, and it should just barely slip in there. The tough choice comes just after this with the Bunker/3rd Depot placement and choice. If you absolutely want to squeeze out both the Bunker and Barracks 2/3 as quickly as possible, you can permit a slight supply block at 27 for a few seconds, using CC#2 as a ersatz depot, which will take you to 38 supply once finished. I just did a dry run of it, as instructed with no cuts at all, and I got very supply blocked, here is the replay, let me know if I'm missing something because currently my situation is not the same as yours, and I executed this pretty much 99% well http://drop.sc/261046cheers! Edit: Just added another one, sneaking in the CC before that scv and marine as you said, 'slightly' cutting them, you actually still get supply blocked for a good 10 seconds, it just doesn't seem very efficient at all either way http://drop.sc/261048In the first version with no cuts, you get supply blocked for 25 seconds In the second version, you have to cut scvs for 7 seconds, and marines for 12 (or vice versa), you then get supply blocked for 12 seconds This could either be a) me, b) something isnt quite right or c) the build is intended like that (in which case i think its significant enough to note this in your guide, after doing the build as instructed and getting a 25sec supply block i mighten't be the only one)
You're actually quite right, the margin is larger than I remembered it being.
I also just watched the relevant sections of the Korean-language YouTube VoD that another poster tracked down (thanks, btw!). Here's how Flash does it:
1. CC @~4:00-4:05
*** constant Marine/SCV production after Marauder
2. CC @~4:45-4:50
3. Supply Depot when minerals permit (no queued units/workers)
*** Flash gets supply blocked for about 16 in-game seconds (this is totally unavoidable without cutting something)
4. Barracks x2, then Bunker
***further note: if you DO go for the emergency Bunker without depot, the supply block WILL be about 25-26 in-game seconds
Based on this excellent research (much kudos to you fine gentlepeople!), I will be updating the OP to reflect the supply block bumps and the necessity of scouting for 4-gates as a result.
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On October 04 2012 06:56 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 00:30 MateShade wrote:On October 03 2012 22:02 Jazzman88 wrote:On October 03 2012 17:42 MateShade wrote:
Hey Jazzman, I'm having trouble with the actual opener. In your pic you have 23 food, both CC's started and consusive not quite done. When i play the build out, i can't afford the 3rd CC before the depot. Do you cut marines or scvs anywhere? Even with not building the 3rd depot my 3rd CC doesnt start until concussive is already done. I'm not really sure if i've missed something subtle. It is VERY tight. Notice in the pic (I have the production tab open), that I have the 3rd CC just started, 1 SCV almost done, nothing coming out of the Barracks, and 45 minerals. In the next couple of seconds, I am going to start a Marine and an SCV as soon as the minerals permit. There may be a slight hiccup in production, but there is no intentional 'cutting' of anything. Build what the minerals allow, never queuing up more than 1 SCV or Barracks unit at a time, and it should just barely slip in there. The tough choice comes just after this with the Bunker/3rd Depot placement and choice. If you absolutely want to squeeze out both the Bunker and Barracks 2/3 as quickly as possible, you can permit a slight supply block at 27 for a few seconds, using CC#2 as a ersatz depot, which will take you to 38 supply once finished. I just did a dry run of it, as instructed with no cuts at all, and I got very supply blocked, here is the replay, let me know if I'm missing something because currently my situation is not the same as yours, and I executed this pretty much 99% well http://drop.sc/261046cheers! Edit: Just added another one, sneaking in the CC before that scv and marine as you said, 'slightly' cutting them, you actually still get supply blocked for a good 10 seconds, it just doesn't seem very efficient at all either way http://drop.sc/261048In the first version with no cuts, you get supply blocked for 25 seconds In the second version, you have to cut scvs for 7 seconds, and marines for 12 (or vice versa), you then get supply blocked for 12 seconds This could either be a) me, b) something isnt quite right or c) the build is intended like that (in which case i think its significant enough to note this in your guide, after doing the build as instructed and getting a 25sec supply block i mighten't be the only one) You're actually quite right, the margin is larger than I remembered it being. I also just watched the relevant sections of the Korean-language YouTube VoD that another poster tracked down (thanks, btw!). Here's how Flash does it: 1. CC @~4:00-4:05 *** constant Marine/SCV production after Marauder 2. CC @~4:45-4:50 3. Supply Depot when minerals permit (no queued units/workers) *** Flash gets supply blocked for about 16 in-game seconds (this is totally unavoidable without cutting something) 4. Barracks x2, then Bunker ***further note: if you DO go for the emergency Bunker without depot, the supply block WILL be about 25-26 in-game seconds Based on this excellent research (much kudos to you fine gentlepeople!), I will be updating the OP to reflect the supply block bumps and the necessity of scouting for 4-gates as a result.
No worries, didn't want tto sound like I was nitpicking haha. Flash obviously thinks the supply block is worth getting the 3rd cc up 10 seconds faster, so I wont argue with him but it still feels a little weird
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holy shit. the pressure sometimes straight up kills the any toss not paying attention even when I'm building two command centers behind it LOLOLOL.
thanks for the idea.
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On October 04 2012 12:18 Discarder wrote:
holy shit. the pressure sometimes straight up kills the any toss not paying attention even when I'm building two command centers behind it LOLOLOL.
thanks for the idea.
It's similar to a standard +1 mmm pressure at 11 minutes, only you will have a few less units/medivacs and no +1. The pressure achieves the same thing as standard play with good control which is great ^^ (and the idea behind the build)
Unless you mean the 1 marauder pressure at the start... which is just sad haha
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On October 04 2012 12:21 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 12:18 Discarder wrote:
holy shit. the pressure sometimes straight up kills the any toss not paying attention even when I'm building two command centers behind it LOLOLOL.
thanks for the idea. It's similar to a standard +1 mmm pressure at 11 minutes, only you will have a few less units/medivacs and no +1. The pressure achieves the same thing as standard play with good control which is great ^^ (and the idea behind the build) Unless you mean the 1 marauder pressure at the start... which is just sad haha
Yeah, the metagame is so firmly in favour of 1-gate FE or Nexus-first that unless they send a 9 scout, they don't get inside your base, and so they don't see the gas. Sometimes the Protoss will just assume no pressure and an FE, but then they skip the Zealot or make a Sentry instead of a Stalker, and Concussive Shell KILLS Gateway units if you can manage to not lose the Marauder.
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I'm using this build for a while now, but I still wonder what flash does about late dt's (1gate FE into 8:30 dt drop, or just 8:30 dt's). He makes his ebays around 9:5..
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On October 04 2012 22:00 Snowbear wrote:
I'm using this build for a while now, but I still wonder what flash does about late dt's (1gate FE into 8:30 dt drop, or just 8:30 dt's). He makes his ebays around 9:5..
Good eyes and a scan works, but it's not a reliable way unless you're really good.
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On October 04 2012 22:00 Snowbear wrote:
I'm using this build for a while now, but I still wonder what flash does about late dt's (1gate FE into 8:30 dt drop, or just 8:30 dt's). He makes his ebays around 9:5..
Basically with 3 OC the Protoss has to go super all-in with the DTs and hope that you have just dropped 3 MULEs in order to win... 3 OCs gives you plenty of Scans, and aside from that, just scout and be aware. DTs aren't that great against Terran just because of the frequency of early E-bays, but you'll occasionally get hit. I wouldn't worry about the 8:30 drop so much. Unless he gets lucky, he'll end up way behind that greedy of 3CC build.
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EPT
