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On September 02 2012 08:12 Westy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 07:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote:On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote:
It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build. So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D Tech Lab first doesn't indicate 2 rax, because a proper 2 rax is reactor first like I said. Showing a marauder just leads the protoss to kill you with a 3 gate pressure, immortal all-in (off gate robo gate), void ray all-in, etc. I have tried builds like this and I recognize the potential power, it's just that there are similar builds that are safer and just as powerful. A player can easily go 1 gate expand against this build anyway and hit a strong 2 base timing, so I don't understand why anyone thinks a marauder gives you any advantage. But the protoss doesn't SEE the techlab. You kill the probe before it scouts your techlab. All the protoss see's is 3 marines and a marauder pushing out, which looks exactly like a 2 rax.
How does a marauder come out before a 9 scout sees your gas and tech lab?
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On September 02 2012 08:12 Westy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 07:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote:On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote:
It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build. So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D Tech Lab first doesn't indicate 2 rax, because a proper 2 rax is reactor first like I said. Showing a marauder just leads the protoss to kill you with a 3 gate pressure, immortal all-in (off gate robo gate), void ray all-in, etc. I have tried builds like this and I recognize the potential power, it's just that there are similar builds that are safer and just as powerful. A player can easily go 1 gate expand against this build anyway and hit a strong 2 base timing, so I don't understand why anyone thinks a marauder gives you any advantage. But the protoss doesn't SEE the techlab. You kill the probe before it scouts your techlab. All the protoss see's is 3 marines and a marauder pushing out, which looks exactly like a 2 rax.
Not always. It depends on the timing of the scout. If the Protoss 9-scouts, it's possible that he sees everything up until he gets killed by the Marine, so he might see the Tech Lab. The good thing in that case would be that he sees the gas, which could also be 1-1-1. I see what he's trying to say, which is that Tech Lab is not the standard 2-rax, Reactor THEN Tech Lab is; and in his opinion the Protoss can kill you by pressuring against this. In my experience up to this point, it's no weaker than anything else versus 2-base timings (the early Concussive Shells helps against Gateway units, and you have the time necessary to defend against 2-base Colossus all-ins - hopefully with a second Starport on the way). There's nothing wrong with searching for holes like that in these builds - that only improves the overall quality of weapons in the Terran arsenal. I haven't seen proof yet that it's 'countered' by any of the standard Protoss builds yet, but I'm open to that idea.
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On September 02 2012 08:16 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 08:12 Westy wrote:On September 02 2012 07:40 oOOoOphidian wrote:On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote:On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote:
It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build. So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D Tech Lab first doesn't indicate 2 rax, because a proper 2 rax is reactor first like I said. Showing a marauder just leads the protoss to kill you with a 3 gate pressure, immortal all-in (off gate robo gate), void ray all-in, etc. I have tried builds like this and I recognize the potential power, it's just that there are similar builds that are safer and just as powerful. A player can easily go 1 gate expand against this build anyway and hit a strong 2 base timing, so I don't understand why anyone thinks a marauder gives you any advantage. But the protoss doesn't SEE the techlab. You kill the probe before it scouts your techlab. All the protoss see's is 3 marines and a marauder pushing out, which looks exactly like a 2 rax. How does a marauder come out before a 9 scout sees your gas and tech lab?
Its marine before techlab... Marine kills the probe before he builds the techlab
And to the other guy, you simply don't make the techlab until you kill the marine. Just fake the production of another marine (Or hell, even build one if you have too), and the protoss is going to be convince that you will be two raxing (After seeing the marauder + 3 marines)
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Wait, didn't people stop doing marauder expos since 3 gate voidrays appeared?
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I don't think you can prevent a probe from getting to see the techlab without using the marauder, which gives away the information protoss needs anyway. It needs to be tested, but I cannot see this build withstanding the 2base 3 immortal timing that protoss can do off of a gate-robo-gate. You can reactively thrown down the robo in time upon scouting techlab or marauder.
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Thanks for the write up, pretty interesting play.
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Jinro used to do builds exactly like this TvP, check out his twitch archives.
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I got smahed by immortal all in he didn't even scout.. this fails to immortal all in
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On September 02 2012 09:29 nucLeaRTV wrote:
Wait, didn't people stop doing marauder expos since 3 gate voidrays appeared?
On September 02 2012 11:36 ConstantSc wrote:
I got smahed by immortal all in he didn't even scout.. this fails to immortal all in
Every build has it's strengths and weaknesses.
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On September 02 2012 18:03 hersenen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 09:29 nucLeaRTV wrote:
Wait, didn't people stop doing marauder expos since 3 gate voidrays appeared? Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 11:36 ConstantSc wrote:
I got smahed by immortal all in he didn't even scout.. this fails to immortal all in Every build has it's strengths and weaknesses.
Yep it´s a build you can include in your box series in tournements or aggainst your friends, but i wouldn´t recommned doing it on ladder.
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i dont know why people here assume the Toss sees the Techlab... you build 1 marine, which
a) kills the probe you trapped into your base
b) drives the probe away from the ramp
then you build the techlab. Toss either saw gas and no addon and would assume factory most likely or saw just a normal wall without addon and does not know anything.
Also if you scout some kind of 4gate or 1base play you can easily jsut build 1 CC and throw donw the Rax earlier, thats what im doing and i hat no problem against proxy voidray with gates (to be fair he executed it pretty bad, but it was not an auto loss).
this is mid masters~1200pt
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On September 02 2012 11:36 ConstantSc wrote:
I got smahed by immortal all in he didn't even scout.. this fails to immortal all in
The question is. Did you scout it? Did you get bunkers up in time and SCVs to repair them?
It's pretty crucial if you state that it doesn't work against something because of poor control or scouting.
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The thing is, a gas opening almost always means Zealot/Stalker/Stalker which absolutely rolls over a single Marauder. This is more playing towards lack of 2 Rax, as mentioned previously.
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If you show your 2nd depot they know it can't be a 2rax
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Been using this build a few times, figured someone might find this helpful:
http://drop.sc/246987
Equally I'd find it helpful if someone could look over mistakes/improvements.
tl;dr its a game where the P goes all in just after I've taken my third.
There's not enough fpvods and replays of this build around to fully map it out so would be good if people could upload their attempts or note any vods of pro's they see.
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Just an update:
Someone on the Bnet forums asked about a build similar to this, and I'll put out the call here, too. If there are any Protoss who are interested in more exhaustively testing this build with Voidray all-ins and Immortal busts (because those are fairly uncommon on ladder nowadays), I would love to experiment a little more and update the guide. PM me or add Jazzman.214 in-game to test. :D Thanks!
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Great guide! Gotta love a build by the one and only Flash!
User was temp banned for this post.
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flash doing what he does best 
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EPT
