EPTRockband Mini Mafia - Page 22
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
I can't see much difference in marv's posting behaviour before and after that post. He seemd to have some time issues so I would say that the posting frequency changed and with that he had more possibilities to actually contribute. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
So I don't agree entirely with the "Marv changed his tone" portion of the case, which to me is one of the biggest factors. There's some merit to it, though. He definitely displayed some badass attitude in his early posts in the game here. However, there was a big ramp-up after Palmar's initial attack with some (faked?) anger and general badass attempts. Also note a complete cessation on his metacommentary (examples here and here) after the attack. Barring the period between voting Palmar and unvoting Palmar and voting prplhz, though, he's been pretty similar (though he's reverted to his normal spammier style of play despite what he said earlier). The Palmar vote and subsequent un-marv-like aggression is not, to me, a scumtell. The remainder of the case concerns Marv's level of contribution and specific posts with him. His post about the divided town is bad and un-townmarv-like. His post telling Palmar to piss off is dumb but not scummy. It falls into the "possibly angry" time as well... but it is uncharacteristic. His post demanding a scum motivation for his OMGUS is dumb, and would be null except Marv isn't that dumb. Very scummy. The sheeping quote doesn't mean anything to me. Before this, I didn't know what to make of Marv. Now I think of him as scummy. Also, his interaction with prplhz when he gets mad feels very ungenuine. I did some serious thinking before I wrote this post. I don't like lynching active players D1. I really don't like lynching Marv D1 since he often doesn't make it to D2. But more than that, I don't like not lynching scum. I know you've been giving me town props all day today Marv, but I'm afraid I can't reciprocate the feelings. ##unvote ##vote: Marvellosity | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
##unvote ##vote prplhz I'm going to bed. I'll be up | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I just refuse to vote for a case I feel so shitty about. Not today. Not today Palmar. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On September 18 2012 08:17 austinmcc wrote: actually seems to apologize for being too aggressive, when I don't feel that was the case at all.This part of that post should come off...less hostile? I just think you're seeing something that wasn't there, as was another person or two. I didn't vote anyone. I didn't go BEST CASE EVER BH HIGH FIVE! I noted that I found some of it neat, and then brain farted out what's basically a typo with the "obvious" bit. For instance, you say that I'm more content to talk about pudding than my rationale for my read. But you also sayDo you not find it a little odd that you both think I am more interested in discussing the term "pudding-munchers" than my read AND am someone you think was the "most willing to be jumping on BH's case"? Those two thoughts don't feel like they harmonize. Each presents sort of a different version of my post - pushing a read and jumping on a case vs. being more content to chat and not scumhunt right at that moment. After giving it a second look (actually about sixth or seventh look, as my reading comprehension is absolute garbage), he does try to gain some info on Hapa. I find it strange that his scumhunting is dependent on third-party contributions, however, and that while he is waiting for a response from marv he doesn't respond to anything else that's going on in the thread (minus answering my question regarding random lynches, and reacting to BH's graph). All of his time is spent defending himself and somewhat passively pressuring hapa while waiting for marv to respond to him. As for his absence since his last post, about 17 hours ago, I have absolutely no room to comment given my track record this game. I'm pretty much giving anyone being less active the benefit of the doubt at the moment. Since my case against austinmcc basically boiled down to him appearing apologetic for being aggressive and being passive in his scumhunting, I'm sure there's a better lynch option out there. I'm keeping my vote on him for now because he's still currently most suspicious to me, but I think I need more to strongly consider him scum. Going to take a look at Palmar's case on marv as well as everyone's cases on prplhz. I'm sure there will be something in there that's more convincing to me than my own self-talk. | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
I still want to lynch prplhz. Despite his recent contributions (giving us his town reads and making a case on marv), I am convinced that he is scum. Yes, he has 2 pages of filter within 1 day cycle which is unlike his scum play in GSL Open. But let's have a closer look at the posts he has made in these 2 pages: On September 18 2012 06:07 prplhz wrote: hey guys please no unnecessary bullshit it's perfectly possible to play the game without that and it only serves to make the game harder to read there are a couple of people around i have no idea who is, can anybody explain to me who mkfuba07 is? Starting post fluff. On September 18 2012 06:15 prplhz wrote: A useless fact accompanied by an unrelated quote. I hope you're going to try to be more easy to understand from now on so chumps like me can follow your thought process too. On September 18 2012 06:28 prplhz wrote: their* So I am lying or what? I mean, I am not lying unless you think I am perfectly aware who mkfuba07 is yet claims not to be, is that the case? Maybe you can actually explain to me who he is instead of coming up with a silly list that's readily available to me as well if I just go into his profile. I can do that on my own thank you very much. Complains about people who try to give him information about mkfuba07. Sometimes we get to catch a glimpse of his "scum-hunting" or "prodding": On September 18 2012 06:33 prplhz wrote: I think that's a pretty shabby idea. Why do you want to lynch randomly and how did you decide randomly upon marvellosity? On September 18 2012 06:47 prplhz wrote: And how exactly do you know whether it was random or not? After being called out by several players for his lack of contribution he defends himself: On September 18 2012 08:54 prplhz wrote: Yea I had just queue a game of DotA2 when you posted it and then I decided that I would rather see how it other people reacted before shooting it down. I don't really get the first argument. You are saying that my first posts are similar in my scum games, this doesn't make me scum. Then you argue that the first posts themselves have a distinct scummy agenda which is very disputable but more importantly, do you really think that any scum feel the need to push any agenda in their first post? I think that my first post is townie, I think that for all of those scum games you posted. At least the content is townie. Not everything scum posts is scummy. As for the "He's not quick to vote", no that's right, I didn't vote yet during the first 30 minutes of the game. I think it's a very thin argument that I should be scum because of that. I think I like to play both styles styles of "aggressive" and "careful and prodding" as town, I guess it all depends on what mood I am in. Anyway, I think your case on me looks townie and with everything else you've posted I'm pretty confident that you're town. austinmcc, I thought this guy looked really scummy up until this post. It's especially his explanation of that single word "OBVIOUS" that seems very townie to me. It looks like he really thought carefully about my alignment and didn't consider covering his own ass or anything like that. I like that. Townie for now. Mementoss is a little harder. I think he just voted me because I posted a dumb picture and corrected his grammar. That can be really antagonizing I hate when people do that to me when I make a dumb little mistake. Overall I've got a townie feeling about him. marvellosity is pretty shabby for now. Show me some of that "thinky" that you promised before the game. We also need everybody else to join the game and post some more. The defense in itself is perfectly fine but what lacks is again an effort in scum-hunting. This is the first time that prplhz comments on other players and gives us a read. While town reads are definitely useful in the process of elimination, a clear scum read is far more preferable and accurate. And yes, being the center of attention does not naturally leave you with tons of scum reads but there must be players which have acted suspiciously. Being up for a lynch yourself will always be an easier situation to judge the people making the cases on you as you know your alignment. Judging players accusing other players has 2 unknown quantities and therefore getting a good scum read out of it should be more difficult. On September 18 2012 20:33 prplhz wrote: Disclaimer: I don't read any analysis that refer to the "Zephirdd Rule" also known as the "Kenpachi Rule Extended" because I think it's bullshit. Anyway, HapaHauli is playing active and townie and I have no interest in lynching him today. Ange777 is looking terrible though. @Ange777 Have you been scum at any point and can you direct me to one of those games? List of people who suck: Bluelightz, marvellosity. Nice excuse for not reading the thread. Why wouldn't someone read the thread closely? Bullshit is not always just bullshit, it can have town motivation or scum motivation. Is it because you are scum and already know the alignments? There are a lot of useless posts in his filter like: Now let's get to the part where he actually decides to contribute by making cases: On September 19 2012 06:54 prplhz wrote: I think that Mementoss is town. I skimmed a few of his previous games (they're all conveniently in his profile and that's pretty nifty I gotta say) and I think his play looks a lot more like his town play than his scum play. Would not lynch. I thought austinmcc looked scummy but I think that his explanation for the "TOO OBVIOUS" thing looked pretty townie and I liked it a lot so I'm null/town on him. I'm not a big spammer. Asking what people generally think of someone is just something to talk about. It was very literally 3 posts into the game and the two posts before that were not exactly something I could get any content out of. I don't think I'm sheeping Palmar on marvellosity (and I don't think that really matters anyway but some people seem to make a big deal out of it). The reason I am voting marvellosity is that while he said he'd post less and be more thinky this doesn't excuse him from contributing and probably in a comparable way to how he usually plays. He wants to refine his play and maybe cut out some of the "fk u" posts that's great but people don't change their play to be more scummy because that's just dumb. I don't think his decreased activity has been offset by the increased thinkitivity and that unsettles me. The thing that pushed me over the edge with marvellosity was what I mentioned here (and you'll notice that this was before Palmar commented on it). I don't think that town marvellosity would find HiroPro's argument convincing at all. This befuddled me a bit because I'm a slow thinker and admittedly, seeing that a towny looking Palmar saw the same thing as me made me feel more strongly about it. Actually so strongly about it that I voted marvellosity. I don't think that marvellosity has started looking better since then, actually he is looking pretty bad. The straight up OMGUS is something I imagine a scum marvellosity to be capable of so I have to consider, is it a townie move or not? No it's not, the straight up OMGUS was a stupid move. I have no idea why marvellosity is so upset but I think it's because he has been figured out. I dont' see any townie motivation for it at all and how he's tried to explain it so far (Palmar should know better) doesn't convince me. Actually, if marvellosity really thinks that Palmar should know better then why doesn't he think that Palmar is scum and vote him? Instead he's going for an arguably easier day1 target in me. I have some small reservations with the marvellosity lynch that I can tell you about later but for now he's my top candidate. So here we have his explanation on why he wants to lynch marv. Basically I see 3 points: 1) Marv promised more thinky posts while posting less in general. But while he definitely has been a more lurky marv than usual he has not fulfilled his promise for thinky posts. While I have to agree that we have not seen much of the new thinky-style marv, it's not like he wasn't to be seen at all. On September 18 2012 22:19 marvellosity wrote: BH has pretty much echoed my thoughts on Zephirdd's case on Hapahauli. It's not good at all and as pointed out by Hapa himself contains multiple misrepresentations (over the top/scummy kept coming up and that's just basic reading comprehension). Further, the part of the case that I've just quoted makes almost no sense to me whatsoever. In the quote Zeph provides, where does Hapa say that prplhz is playing badly? He's saying he didn't like BH's case. A town player can very well know when another player is playing badly. For example, Zephirdd, you are playing badly whether you are town or scum. The entire case is built on stretches and misrepresentations. I would also like to talk about the retarded 'Zephirdd rule'. Let's break it down in essence - the first time someone says something stupid/bad/scummy, the first person to jump on it is scum. What does this actually mean? Town is supposed to let the first dumbass comment slide and only comment on the SECOND person being a dumbass/scummy? The whole rule basically proposes that the first person to be bad should be left untouched. I also think that he's using this rule as an excuse to make a case without actually having to think about what's gone on in the thread properly. He's spotted something that adheres to his 'rule' and has then fabricated the rest of the case out of nothing. Shame goodkarma is replacing out. His first post was scummy as hell. Not the general wishywashyness/not voting, but the fact that he was willing to talk about policy/trolling. I'm going to be keeping a close eye on his replacement. Look at this: The thread has already generated a scumread for GK, but for some reason he's derailing into policy discussion. Look at what he says - policy discussion is far more productive than the direction this game has gone. But look at how this game has gone. This might be the most productive Day 1 I've ever seen. Why is he complaining about it? As per usual I don't get BL's case on Mementoss. It looks like he's posting a load of unalignment indicative things and going "look! scum!". I'm pretty nullish on Mementoss right now. With the high activity of some portions of the town, I think there's gonna be at least 1 scum sitting back and enjoying the show. At the moment this leaves me with mfkuba, Ange777, and HiroPro. I know fuba from outside of TL Mafia and at the moment I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see if he posts more. Ange just seems to be getting involved in the discussion, so fine. At the moment I'm looking at HiroPro. Distinctly from the other two, he's actually been around posting, except what he's been posting is minimal and effortless. He voted for goodkarma but with barely an elaboration (I elaborated more above and that was just in passing). Other than that, he's posted a few times, but actually done nothing at all. ##Vote: HiroPro This is a well written and unlike the usual one-liner marv post with a lot of thinking. Yes, there haven't been other posts like this one following it up but soon afterwards was the Palmar/Marv war, it's only reasonable to assume that during a heated discussion you won't write text-wall posts. I am still hoping for the thinky-marv to pop up again now that he seems to have calmed down again but for now, I can't take this argument as a scum indicator. If this continues to go on after day 1 I will reconsider this point again but not now. prplhz' other arguments for scum marv: 2) Town marv would never be convinced by HiroPro's argument. + Show Spoiler + On September 19 2012 01:11 HiroPro wrote: Look at goodkarma's posts and what I've already said about him. Look at the voting in the thread. We have like 6 or 7 candidates each with one vote. That's a recipe for town disaster. And then look at what Palmar comes in and does - he throws three completely new candidates into the mix and doesn't give any real reason for them being scum. He's not trying to actually lead town onto a successful lynch, he's just trying to cause chaos. Why not? I don't like Palmar's style of just giving away all his reads without any single explanation other than to take his word for it. (But apparentely no one else is annoyed by this fact besides me.) I am perfectly fine with discussing new lynch targets but I need to know why someone proposes them to be lynched. 3) The OMGUS vote was due to scum marv being caught. I really dislike OMGUS votes. Because they can be basically everything from town motivated to scum motivated or just plain stupid. And the other problem is you usually can't prove it, the OMGUS voter can simply hide behind the OMGUS motivation. Yes, the OMGUS vote makes marv scummy but it is not enough to convince me into lynching him. This following part makes me really wonder why people are not suspicious of prplhz: On September 19 2012 06:54 prplhz wrote: I have some small reservations with the marvellosity lynch that I can tell you about later but for now he's my top candidate. So when is it "later"? How do you want to convince us into lynching your allegedly top scum read when you yourself have reservations you are not willing to share with us? prplhz' two pages filter contains a lot of fluff and useless stuff. He has not made much effort in scum-hunting, just some occasionally prodding. He gives himself excuses for not reading the thread closely. His case on marv is really weak. And he is already back-paddling from said case. Scum. I will probably check Palmar's filter once more later, furthermore I want to know where the lurkers like austin, Bluelightz, mkfuba07 and HiroPro have gone. Stop lurking and get in the game. | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
I'll be away for a few hours but I hope to see some more activity when I come back. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
"marv is better than this, therefore he is scum". I have the case open in a separate tab to see if I need to respond to specific points, but I can find very little worth responding to. Yes, my tone changed, I got a bit heated. What of it? If you want to go down that road, it's something I'm far more likely to do as town. WIFOMy? Sure, but Palmar's entire case is WIFOMy. Anyone go find me a single example of me 'losing the plot' as scum - you won't be able to find an instance, I wager. Or NMM3 where I was actually scum and Palmar called me out and I just flat out ignored him. On the other hand, as town I have been known to self-vote (Movie Mafia) or go into a 24-48 hour funk (Bureaucracy, when Foolish called me scum for no reason, and it knocked me sideways until I recovered and realised Foolish was scum). "Did you think I wouldn't tell people what I thought about other people in the game? Should I just not call out my reads because they "mess with an already divided town"?" Yeah except you gave very little reasoning for anything. You said austin is scum and provided one quote going "lol here's evidence" with no explanation of why the quote made him scum. You called Hiro scum with no reasoning, and ditto you laid a vote on me later with a one sentence explanation. That's pisspoor play, Palmar. I will be filtering this afternoon to see who I particularly want to lynch. I don't care if you/people thought I was weird for liking Hiro's Palmar point; to me it was a perspective that I hadn't thought of at all and so it was interesting. Additionally Hiro's points on Hapa's contradictions were strong. Listening to contributions from a day 1 scumread who was mainly a scumread for not contributing is not scummy behaviour. I'm not sure if it's enough from austin to make me not want to lynch him, but at the moment I'm leaning towards austin. He's been very absent through critical discussions when I know he could have been active, and that's scummy play. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On September 19 2012 20:28 Ange777 wrote: prplhz Nice excuse for not reading the thread. Why wouldn't someone read the thread closely? Bullshit is not always just bullshit, it can have town motivation or scum motivation. Is it because you are scum and already know the alignments? So when is it "later"? How do you want to convince us into lynching your allegedly top scum read when you yourself have reservations you are not willing to share with us? I just read your case properly Ange, and I've left in the quote above the two points I think are particularly good. I'd like an answer from prplhz sooner rather than later. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On September 19 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote: Palmar's entire shitty case is this: "marv is better than this, therefore he is scum". I have the case open in a separate tab to see if I need to respond to specific points, but I can find very little worth responding to. Yes, my tone changed, I got a bit heated. What of it? If you want to go down that road, it's something I'm far more likely to do as town. WIFOMy? Sure, but Palmar's entire case is WIFOMy. Anyone go find me a single example of me 'losing the plot' as scum - you won't be able to find an instance, I wager. Or NMM3 where I was actually scum and Palmar called me out and I just flat out ignored him. Again, you don't get to decide what makes you scummy or townie. I know that generally when I play scum I resort to calling cases/players bad because well, it's an easy way to brush aside the case itself and start a shitstorm instead. On September 19 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote: On the other hand, as town I have been known to self-vote (Movie Mafia) or go into a 24-48 hour funk (Bureaucracy, when Foolish called me scum for no reason, and it knocked me sideways until I recovered and realised Foolish was scum). "Did you think I wouldn't tell people what I thought about other people in the game? Should I just not call out my reads because they "mess with an already divided town"?" Yeah except you gave very little reasoning for anything. You said austin is scum and provided one quote going "lol here's evidence" with no explanation of why the quote made him scum. You called Hiro scum with no reasoning, and ditto you laid a vote on me later with a one sentence explanation. That's pisspoor play, Palmar. No it's not pisspoor play, it's what I do when I'm not actively building cases. I never actually need much reasoning behind finding scum or town, generally I just read one little thing and that gives it away. Also stop using your own meta to defend yourself. I'm not using meta to build this case against you, it has nothing to do with what you've done in other games. It's what you're doing THIS game that I'm worried about. On September 19 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote: I will be filtering this afternoon to see who I particularly want to lynch. I don't care if you/people thought I was weird for liking Hiro's Palmar point; to me it was a perspective that I hadn't thought of at all and so it was interesting. Additionally Hiro's points on Hapa's contradictions were strong. Listening to contributions from a day 1 scumread who was mainly a scumread for not contributing is not scummy behaviour. I'm not sure if it's enough from austin to make me not want to lynch him, but at the moment I'm leaning towards austin. He's been very absent through critical discussions when I know he could have been active, and that's scummy play. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
Yes, it is pisspoor play when you're bringing reads without explanation. You saying it isn't doesn't make it not. Sorry Palmar. And I'll defend myself how I see fit. Your case remains terrible. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
Pisspoor, Palmar. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
So if I do those things I'm confirmed town. what the hell. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
Herp derp I know these patterns so I could alter those if I want, yes yes. But how I have previously behaved as BOTH scum and town is relevant. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
This is why most people shouldn't use meta. The problem here is that you're simply looking at one action, and assuming it's valid to point that out. I never point to my own meta as town or scum because I know I'm perfectly capable of altering it. You seem to think that you getting angry should make me believe you're town, but since you're aware of it I consider it a null tell. In fact, you know I'm reasonable and good at this game, if you instead had opted for just laying out good cases and explanations of other people, instead of attempting to angry at me, I would've thought you're town. I'm not applying meta, I'm applying what's logical to do. There's only two options that make sense from a townie point of view when presented with an accusation like mine. One is to think I'm scum and present a case towards that end, or the other is to think I'm town and wrong, and in that case raging at me doesn't make much sense, should rather just go do something useful. I think you fucked up, and I think you've proven you're scum. | ||
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