EPT
[D][G] Flash's Concussive 3CC - Page 2
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
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SgtCoDFish
United Kingdom1520 Posts
 Definitely worth trying some more; I love early conc shell builds but stopped doing them when they fell out of fashion. Thanks for the guide | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 01 2012 23:45 AnomalySC2 wrote: 3 gate void ray would insta kill this. That doesn't make this a bad build by any means, void ray all ins are fairly scarce these days. Again, I feel like what tasteless used to say is really the truth. If you see a tech lab opener on the barracks just go void rays, I think it really is that simple. Hmm, that's an interesting point. I think you're right that Voidrays smash this build in general, but of course if you happen to scout a proxied Stargate your map control will allow you to just go kill that building. Like I said in the guide, the Voidray all-in is very strong against this, but it is so close to a dead build (I haven't seen it two months or more on ladder) that it may be less of a threat nowadays. I don't have any real solution for that simply because there are things which every build is a little weak against. Voidrays happens to be a weak point for this one. Regarding another question about Immortal all-ins: assuming you scout properly it should be holdable. The three Barracks will be up in time and you'll have a little bit to see it coming and put up additional Bunkers. Basically treat it like a standard Rax -> 3OC versus Immortal all-ins. It will be tough and require good reflexes, decision-making, and scouting reads. Concussive Shell should help out a lot, especially if you squeeze out another Marauder or two to fit in the Bunkers. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 02 2012 00:09 dynwar7 wrote: To those saying 3 gate void ray will kill this, are you serious? Of course there is no perfect build, there must be few/some counters to any build.... FWIW this build CAN hold 3 gate VR all-in if you scout it. You just don't make the third CC, make bunkers and more barracks, and treat it like a normal 1 rax conc shell expo. It won't be easy-- VR guy will have an advantage-- but it'll still be totally possible to hold. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 01 2012 22:12 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's like reactor double expand with the downside of faking nothing scary (while reactor may indicate a proper 2 rax or 1/1/1) and being worse against a void ray all-in. I don't recommend it. oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build. So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote: oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. Thing is, Protoss no longer go 3 gate expands upon scouting fast Marauders, 1 gate exe can handle any fast Concussive pressure just fine at high level. | ||
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kiklion
99 Posts
On September 02 2012 00:09 dynwar7 wrote: To those saying 3 gate void ray will kill this, are you serious? Of course there is no perfect build, there must be few/some counters to any build.... The issue lies in can the counter be done re-actively? If Protoss needs to blindly go 3 gate void ray to counter this, and if that is a generally bad strat that loses against other builds, then it is not a big issue. If protoss can scout the tech lab barracks and re-actively go voidrays (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) then it is a big deal. Being that I don't play protoss or terran, I can't comment on if it can be done re-actively. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 02 2012 05:52 TheDwf wrote: Thing is, Protoss no longer go 3 gate expands upon scouting fast Marauders, 1 gate exe can handle any fast Concussive pressure just fine at high level. I agree in general; occasionally, however, you still get overreactions just because 2-rax isn't played as much nowadays, and that and proxy Marauder are the only forms of fast Concussive play that Protoss players have really been dealing with in the past. In addition, if he's expecting pressure, he is spending his gas on lots of Sentries and Stalkers, NOT on crucial tech. Simple Zealots won't beat 2-rax: the Protoss would NEED Sentries or sufficient Stalkers if he has more than one Gateway, and delaying the tech is just fine for this build. Faster upgrades than the Protoss AND delayed Colossi/High Templar? Yes please. :D | ||
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snively
United States1159 Posts
On September 01 2012 16:28 Pholon wrote: Excellent guide :o Wanna put it on Liquipedia? (you'll get coins!) do it ! for the coinzz ! | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 02 2012 06:05 kiklion wrote: The issue lies in can the counter be done re-actively? If Protoss needs to blindly go 3 gate void ray to counter this, and if that is a generally bad strat that loses against other builds, then it is not a big issue. If protoss can scout the tech lab barracks and re-actively go voidrays (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) then it is a big deal. Being that I don't play protoss or terran, I can't comment on if it can be done re-actively. I believe it IS possible to do a Voidray build reactively against this, but not ideal for the Protoss (the proxy pylon needs to go down by about 24 supply, and the Stargate by 27). However, because even 24 is an early proxy, you would need to scout this very quickly in order to make that choice (it's the third Pylon for the Protoss). The ideal Voidray all-in does a 12 Gateway (I believe) which is not the standard it used to be in PvT (13 Gateway is more normal). In addition, if you were planning on a 1-gate FE up until the point when you saw Marauders, you're likely spending Chronoboost on Probes and not on the Cyber Core or Stalkers just yet. As a further point, since Voidray all-ins usually use proxied Stargates, the Terran player has the potential to find and kill that Stargate because of the map control that Concussive Marauders that early will afford. With the SCV scout after the second Depot is done, the Terran will spot that something is up. If I were to see no Nexus, no additional Gateways just yet, and Chrono on the Warp Gate, I would start aggressively hunting for proxies and dropping safety Bunkers. At worst, you could probably cancel the 3rd CC to get additional Barracks and Bunkers up. I believe (if my memory and searching has not failed me) that Voidray all-ins hit by 7:00 or so. If you smell it coming even a little, it's possible to keep building Bunkers, forgo the Reactors on your Barracks entirely, and just crank out the Marines as much as possible. So, can it be done reactively to try and kill this? Possible (but I haven't yet had someone face this with Voidray all-ins, so I don't know for sure). Is it going to be an ideal choice? Debatable, because the metagame of 1-gate FE makes Voidray all-ins less appetizing as follow ups. Bottom line - your Protoss opponent needs an early scout and good proxy placement to make a Voidray all-in reactively against this. As soon as someone has replays of being pummeled by Voidrays using this build, I'll be able to take a better look. | ||
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hersenen
Belize176 Posts
http://www.gosubuilds.com/terran-build-orders-2/terran-vs-protoss/tvp-byuns-marinetankmedivac-allin/ And you've got a good mind game going on. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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TheRealFluid
United States501 Posts
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kiklion
99 Posts
On September 02 2012 06:53 Jazzman88 wrote: I believe it IS possible to do a Voidray build reactively against this, but not ideal for the Protoss (the proxy pylon needs to go down by about 24 supply, and the Stargate by 27). However, because even 24 is an early proxy, you would need to scout this very quickly in order to make that choice (it's the third Pylon for the Protoss). The ideal Voidray all-in does a 12 Gateway (I believe) which is not the standard it used to be in PvT (13 Gateway is more normal). In addition, if you were planning on a 1-gate FE up until the point when you saw Marauders, you're likely spending Chronoboost on Probes and not on the Cyber Core or Stalkers just yet. As a further point, since Voidray all-ins usually use proxied Stargates, the Terran player has the potential to find and kill that Stargate because of the map control that Concussive Marauders that early will afford. With the SCV scout after the second Depot is done, the Terran will spot that something is up. If I were to see no Nexus, no additional Gateways just yet, and Chrono on the Warp Gate, I would start aggressively hunting for proxies and dropping safety Bunkers. At worst, you could probably cancel the 3rd CC to get additional Barracks and Bunkers up. I believe (if my memory and searching has not failed me) that Voidray all-ins hit by 7:00 or so. If you smell it coming even a little, it's possible to keep building Bunkers, forgo the Reactors on your Barracks entirely, and just crank out the Marines as much as possible. So, can it be done reactively to try and kill this? Possible (but I haven't yet had someone face this with Voidray all-ins, so I don't know for sure). Is it going to be an ideal choice? Debatable, because the metagame of 1-gate FE makes Voidray all-ins less appetizing as follow ups. Bottom line - your Protoss opponent needs an early scout and good proxy placement to make a Voidray all-in reactively against this. As soon as someone has replays of being pummeled by Voidrays using this build, I'll be able to take a better look. Thanks for answering that in detail. Why does the stargate need to be proxied? Can a stalker not deny scouting it? Or does it need to be down before the stalker comes out? | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On September 02 2012 07:10 TheRealFluid wrote: I feel like a gate robo gate into 2 immortal aggression can completely counter this build. This was pretty much what I thought too. A build like what Flying did against MVP in OSL viz sentry/immortal pressure. I struggle to see how this build could defend against it. Still, it worked for Flash so it's obviously worth throwing in every so often. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 02 2012 07:10 TheRealFluid wrote: I feel like a gate robo gate into 2 immortal aggression can completely counter this build. If you feel that, run this against some Immortal pressure/all-ins, show us the replays, and then we'll be able to say for sure. No one has gone Gate-Robo-Gate against me yet when doing this build (I've been testing on ladder for the most part). In addition, 2-Immortal aggression is far from standard. A heavy bust with 3 Immortals is more regular, and normal Terran expand builds will still feel the heat of those. The default stance of a Protoss going quick Immortals scouting Marauder/tech lab builds is to hold back, defend the push, and counter-swing. Since you are not actually pushing him, you have extra time to get the appropriate number of Bunkers. Also, 3OCs means lost SCVs when defending Bunkers are both replenished faster and somewhat compensated for by 3 MULEs at a time. Just like when scouting many Protoss all-ins, you should be concentrating on just getting out many many Marines and Bunkers. Scouting is always key to holding something with a greedy build like this. See it coming and make the intuitive response (i.e. don't get Reactors, just keep pumping units, build more Bunkers, hotkey SCVs for quick repair, etc.). A note to anyone contributing to the discussion: as I've done lots of testing against AIs, laddering, and watching the Flash/San game many many times, please be as specific as possible when suggesting something to add. There's lots of little wrinkles that you can react to in anyone's play, so knowing the EXACT situation you are talking about will make it easier for me to determine whether or not there is a hole in the build (which I want to plug if at all possible). Many details and replays would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for all the feedback so far. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On September 02 2012 05:44 Jazzman88 wrote: oOOoOphidian, I would recommend trying this a few times before dismissing it so casually. The threat needs only delay the Protoss expansion a little bit. If the Protoss sees a Marauder and goes 3 gates before expanding in response, they will be so incredibly far behind (see the last game in the Replays section which was played today and demonstrates this beautifully) that it will be near impossible for them to win without a super strong 2-base all-in. It's true that this is weak to Voidray all-ins. However, Voidray all-in is so much worse (in modern PvT) against many of the other standard builds that Terrans have at their disposal that I have a hard time believing that many Protoss will make the instant reaction to go for it. In addition, this is NOT supposed to be a replacement standard ladder build (although it works fine in Diamond League where the reactions are less precise and timely all around). It's very good as something to mix in a BoX, where you can throw many different looks at your opponent. Imagine doing a 2-rax all-in and winning in the first game, THEN pulling this out. What does your opponent do? He HAS to respect the possibility of 2-rax, so he'll play safe, but then ends up way behind the 3CC. That's the money place for this build. So, try it and if you find some huge holes in it with ladder play, please let me know so I can tweak the build or add some cautions to it. :D Tech Lab first doesn't indicate 2 rax, because a proper 2 rax is reactor first like I said. Showing a marauder just leads the protoss to kill you with a 3 gate pressure, immortal all-in (off gate robo gate), void ray all-in, etc. I have tried builds like this and I recognize the potential power, it's just that there are similar builds that are safer and just as powerful. A player can easily go 1 gate expand against this build anyway and hit a strong 2 base timing, so I don't understand why anyone thinks a marauder gives you any advantage. | ||
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Westy
England808 Posts
On September 02 2012 07:40 oOOoOphidian wrote: Tech Lab first doesn't indicate 2 rax, because a proper 2 rax is reactor first like I said. Showing a marauder just leads the protoss to kill you with a 3 gate pressure, immortal all-in (off gate robo gate), void ray all-in, etc. I have tried builds like this and I recognize the potential power, it's just that there are similar builds that are safer and just as powerful. A player can easily go 1 gate expand against this build anyway and hit a strong 2 base timing, so I don't understand why anyone thinks a marauder gives you any advantage. But the protoss doesn't SEE the techlab. You kill the probe before it scouts your techlab. All the protoss see's is 3 marines and a marauder pushing out, which looks exactly like a 2 rax. Edit: You will notice Flash goes straight into marine production from that first techlab after the first marauder. Not only is this so he can get the two CC's faster, but also because by the time the 2 marines come after the marauder, its perfect timing for when you would have 3 marines + one marauder from a two rax. It all works so perfectly. | ||
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