Stupid arguing on the Internet.

I'm guessing you didn't even compare the two and have limited knowledge on the matter. So i'll just go over basic stats with you.

Strength: Strongest goku has been seen doing is punching through mountains. Superman can move things larger than the earth and moon system and shatter planets. Goku at first had trouble lifting the z-sword which cannot be heavier than the planet it was on. Edge: superman

Speed: Goku has instant transmission but the usage of it is not instantaneous (if you have read negima and know his thunder technique, you should get this). Besides that, goku can move at least mach 1000+. Superman can move many times the speed of light.

Endurance: Superman can withstand flying through a star and destruction on a solar system level (plus he can survive in space). Goku cannot survive in space and gets scared over some blasts that cannot even blow up the planet.

Thats just three basic stats, it is widely considered on battle forums that superman (along with many other comic book characters) can sodomize goku in a fight. If you don't believe me read the threads. I barely know much about superman myself, I thought Goku could bear Superman as well until I read the threads from people who actually put time into making calculations.

See thats your first mistake....you're going off of what other people are saying instead of doing researching for yourself.I on the other hand decided to do the digging myself and found that ssj1 Goku can quite easily hurt pre crisis superman.

but if you are going to just ignore my findings and try to just ramble on and on about how powerful PC superman is, then theres no point in me even sending it to you.

I was trying to be nice but since we are playing condescending, I will be too. You completely ignore everything about a logical argument. What do you want me to do for facts, go out there and find everything myself? I have looked at the Dragonball Z wiki, the DC Database, the Outskirts Battledome (a very respected charcter battledome), and skimmed many pages of forums to make my opinion. You on the other hand ignore findings and claim I know nothing while also ignoring the findings and calculations other people have put their time into. So everything I said about Superman is wrong because other people said so? What kind of bullshit is that, I guess everything you learn in school is BS as well then.

If you believe I am wrong, please prove to me how Iam wrong and how the people who take the time to calculate superman's strength and find his feats are wrong, because their findings seem very convincing. In addition, you keep talking about all of this proof about how SSJ Goku can hurt superman. Please tell me then, your incredible proof and please tell me if it is anime Goku or Manga Goku as there are some differences between

I wasn't really trying to be condescending, it's just that I've had debates with 2 other superman fans already and they both did the same exact thing.

Rambled on and on about how POWERFUL pc superman is, and talked about how "Broken" of a super heroe he was.One of them even said "PC superman could develop Anti-Goku vision".....think about that for a second......yeah he actually said that.

so you can imagine why i would be hesitant to jump into another debate with someone about superman.

The thing about my research is, the end result is impenetrable.So instead of excepting it, Superman fanboys (or anybody who is against Goku at the time) tend to try and ignore it or try to move on to a different facet of the debate.

Instead admitting the obvious.

Than pray tell me said research like I have been asking for the past three posts. I'm starting to think you are trolling. I addition, I am far from a superboy fanboy. I have never read a single superman comic and never even seen a superman movie. All I have seen is Justice League where he is vastly inferior to the superman of the comics. I do agree though that anti-goku vision is ridiculous and am sorry that you have had to talk to such idiots. But my research also indicates Goku and especially not Freiza Saga SSJ Goku could do anything to superman. I will post some links with actual pictures from the comics as an example.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/BatmanvsWolverine/news/?a=49617

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?291609-Superman-s-Most-Impressive-Post-Crisis-Feat/page4

Can Goku survive a star exploding, or being punched into a planet? Majin Buu saga would indicate no, as he was being hurt by punches that sent him into mountains. Can Goku move or even think to use his techniques at many times the speed of light? Can goku survive Superman destroying the planet he is on as Goku cannot survive in space? If you thin Goku's physical strength is enough to destroy a planet and his durability is enough to tank a planet shattering punch, please explain to me how.

,I don't usually get into this stuff,but i did grow up watching DBZ.So when i saw someone say "Pre Crisis Superman will fart and kill Goku!"
I decided to look into it.Taking an intelligent route,i spoke to some of the superman "Fans" and they all seemed to bring up the same point..."He Survived a fuckin supernova!"so here you go....

____Yeah, a supernova is the most powerful thing he ever survived.Which is a pretty amazing feat for superman,and he was actually only dazed from that supernova.But before you call him invincible you have to calculate how powerful a supernova is.
_____Most scientist believe that supernovas can not completely destroy a planet.Meaning there would still be a physical body that remains,but it would be just a scorched,roasted planet sized ball of rock.This is widely accepted in the astronomical community.
_____Now lets look at the destructive capability of DBZ fighters. It takes a powerlevel of about 15,000 to destroy a planet.That's completely destroy a planet,Disintegrate.That means that a fighter with a powerlevel of 15,000 would be able produce a blast more intense than a supernova.Not as big,but more intense, able to cause more severe damage.
Now thats just 15,000.In the frieza saga Goku ssj1 had a PL of 150,000,000.But before i get into that,I think it's important to explain how power levels work.
_____I think it's important to define what a power level is. An ordinary human has a power level of 5. It takes 27 PSI to crack open a human skull. In the first episode of Dragonball, Goku has a power level of 10. In that episode he is hit by a car and shot in the head by Bulma. Even a shot from a 9mm gun is over 30,000 PSI. Goku did not even bleed from that shot. The difference from 5 to 10 is a WHOLE LOT more than double.
_____So when ssj1 Goku has a PL of 150,000,000 even though 3 million is only a 10,000 times larger number than 15,000, it is very likely that he is hundreds of thousands maybe even millions of times more powerful than a person with a PL of 15,000.Remember a PL of 15,000 is powerful enough to disintegrate a planet, when a supernova is not,and a supernova is powerful enough to daze superman.
_____Ssj1 Goku (Freiza Saga) is many hundreds of Thousands of times more powerful than a PL of 15,000.Which means he could disintegrate a planet with ease.Which means he could easily produce a blast many 100,000's of times more intense than a supernova.A supernova dazed superman....so what would a blast hundreds of thousands of times more intense than that supernova do to superman???

This is irrefutable proof that Goku could defeat PC superman Rather easily with an average blast.And Thats just Goku ssj1 frieza saga.

I am incredibly happy you actually posted calculations although your logic about power levels is off. Energy does not equal physical strength and power level refers to fighting capacity so the entire package. Goku had initial difficulty lifting the z-sword which cannot weight more than a planet as it didn't shatter the planet it was on just be being on it. However he can easily destroy a planet. Vegeta before buu came was sweating a 450 times normal gravity while he could destroy a planet at the beginning of Dragonball Z (same can be said of Goku training in space). Superman casually outran a black hole and can move planets. I think it is safe to assume superman has Goku outclassed in physical strength and that power levels do not equal strength or energy but both. Here is an arguement I read on comicvine on Goku;s physical strength.

First we will use what was stated in the Manga. At 100x Gravity they stated Goku would weigh 6 tons. Giving a rough estimate on how much over that he could lift Goku was roughly able to lift 12 tons at his base level by the time he reached Namek. Using the Kai-Ken, Goku is able to increase his level in multiples. While fighting Freeza Goku pushed his Kaio-Ken to its limit by going 20x his base power which would mean Goku would have been somewhere around 240 tons while using this move. Later when Goku went SSJ the use of the Kaio-Ken was no longer needed cause the Kaio-Ken did the same but on a much greater level. Estimated about 50x Goku's normal level(Kio-Ken could get Goku to 20x's) Goku would have been lifting 600 tons while at the SSJ level fighting Freeza.


Your energy calculation is very convincing so for now, I will believe it. While I cannot back this up however, Toriyama later stated power levels was an inaccurate or broken way of measuring true power. Since I cannot back this up, I will listen to you. But please note that Superman was unharmed by the supernova, only briefly knocked out. In addition, he has survived a planet exploding, which is by your calculations, more devastating than a supernova. However, if Goku uses an attack that can destroy a planet or even a star on Superman, he will no doubt destroy the planet they are fighting on and perish as well, so it seems pointless. And don't give me that instant transmission business as the technique itself is not instantaneous. If it was that fast, he could use it to dodge every single attack Buu dishes out.

Now how you got the fact that Goku instantly wins this battle doesn't make sense to me. Sure he may have the edge in energy theoretically, but is it so? When Buu launched an attack with enough power to destroy the planet ten times over, neither Goku nor Vegeta could stop it. Going by PL 15,000 times 10 is 150,000 which suggests Goku cannot stop attacks of that power level. Although I am not sure how strong Superman's beams are, they are said to be as hot as a Sun, although whether or not Goku could survive the power of a sun is unknown, the only character to be thrown to the sun is non-canon cooler. So basically Goku seems to be a glass canon when it comes to energy attacks. Kid buu can harm him as well just by smashing him into mountains so his durability is much less than Superman's.

In terms of speed, without instant transmission, Goku is definitely not as fast as superman, who can move many times the speed of light. Goku stated Instant transmission was as fast as the speed of light (althought doubtful) yet had to use it get from one side of the planet to another. Fastest calculated speed by Goku by someone I believe was at least Mach 1000 and probably much faster.

So based on this, what is keeping Superman from dodging every single one of Goku's attacks, pummeling him into submission, or destroying the planet he is on? Superman can survive in space.

And precrisis superman can kill Goku quite easily, he has sneezed and destroyed a solar system.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26610/2218457-supersneezeae9.jpg

As expected you were unable to disprove anything i said, but you did go into other facets of the debate AS I PREDICTED in one of my earlier messages.

You also tried to twist my words to help your argument.

"he has survived a planet exploding, which is by your calculations, more devastating than a supernova."

Never did i say a planet exploding was more devastating than a supernova.Nor does my calculations imply that.(You need to Re-read it.)

Now seeing as though the only real argument you had was Superman dodging every attack....because I guess you think DBZ blast are slow....??The only thing i need to prove is speed.

Like many other superman fans you massively under estimate DBZ speed, whether it's on purpose or due to ignorance.Nobody in DBZ flies at light speed,But in combat they move many many times light speed.

Goku at age 12 or 13 was taught to move at lightning speed. which is about half the speed of light.

___On foot Superman cannot reach lightspeed. The Flash was shown to be faster than Superman in a footrace. If the Flash ever reaches lightspeed he joins with the speedforce, which he clearly didn't in that race. So he didn't need to even reach lightspeed to beat Superman. Superman appears to be able to fly faster than lightspeed though, as traversing our solar system in a few minutes would require a little more than lightspeed, since the distance from the Earth to the Sun is 8 light minutes.

____How fast is Goku though? Well, here are two good events that you can use to measure speed in DBZ. One is the kamehameha wave from Cooler's Revenge. In under 1 minute, Goku's kamehameha wave reached from the Earth to the Sun, making it about 8 times faster than the speed of light. Therefore, anyone that can dodge SS1 Goku's kamehameha wave, or even see it, has to be at least 8 times faster than the speed of light. Why is seeing it important? In DBZ, there are many times that the characters move faster than other characters can see. So basically, any villain post SS1 that can keep up with Goku can move at least 8 times faster than lightspeed.

____The other case is a little more extreme though. When Vegeta uses The Final Flash against Cell. It's clearly shown that his blast leaves our solar system and explodes on a far away planet/star. The closest planet to our solar system is 4.2 lightyears away. That's 132451200 light seconds. It got there in only 20 seconds, therefore The Final Flash moves at least 6622560 times faster than lightspeed. And that was just ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta. Keep in mind perfect Cell saw this attack coming, yet is unable to see SSJ2 Gohan's movements. And SS3 Goku is obviously far stronger and faster than ssj2 Gohan.

____Yeah, a supernova is the most powerful thing he ever survived.Which is a pretty amazing feat for superman,and he was actually only dazed from that supernova.But before you call him invincible you have to calculate how powerful a supernova is.
_____Most scientist believe that supernovas can not completely destroy a planet.Meaning there would still be a physical body that remains,but it would be just a scorched,roasted planet sized ball of rock.This is widely accepted in the astronomical community.
_____Now lets look at the destructive capability of DBZ fighters. It takes a powerlevel of about 15,000 to destroy a planet.That's completely destroy a planet,Disintegrate.That means that a fighter with a powerlevel of 15,000 would be able produce a blast more intense than a supernova.Not as big,but more intense, able to cause more severe damage.

This is what you said. Your argument here is a supernova cannot destroy a planet. You claim that you need 15,000 energy to disintegrate a planet so that level of attack must be more powerful than a supernova. If this logic is incorrect please tell me. In addition, the Supernova Superman apparently faced destroyed the planet and arguably the solar system as well, and he was near point blank. I fail to see how I twisted your words, I only responded to your logic.

I feel as though the lack of Goku's durability and physical strength is a very legitimate concern, and his lack of ability to survive in space. Please address this as well.

Speed level in Dragonball are notoriously difficult to calculate in the manga. And I agree that this is the critical factor. There are varied calculations on this but yours are a bit off.

"No one in Dragonball flies at light speed but they can fight at light speed" Proof please. And do you know how ridiculous this statement is? You are implying that the warriors when focusing solely on flight cannot fly at light speed when during fighting when they are focusing their power on other things can. In addition, Cooler's revenge is non-canon so nothing in that, or any of the movies, or GT is taken seriously at all. Your second even is very presumptuous, as you claim it destroys a planet star outside of your galaxy when even venus and mars look like stars from the surface of the planet. AND ARE YOU SERIOUSLY USING ANIME TIME TO ARGUE SPEED FEATS? That makes everything in the anime completely illogical and rather slow if you consider the time frame it takes for one attack to reach the a person. By that standard, final flash is hardly that speed as it took a good few seconds to even hit flash from where Cell was standing. Gohans Kamehama took a couple seconds to escape orbit. Nothing makes sense when you look at it anime wise.

If you do want a speed feat, Goku ran the 100 m in 8.1 seconds as a young child. A massively inconsistent feat later in the childhood saga, he outran Tien's, solar flare. Goku flew snake way around mach 30. Then there is the paradoxical feat of Gotenks flying around the planet multiple times. If you wish for me to explain why it is paradoxical, please tell me.

Superman is very fast. This is how fast the second fastest flash is.

It appears that the Flash may run at any speed that he thinks is possible. Wally West is by far one of the fastest beings on the planet, and is arguably one of the fastest being to exist (The title of "Fastest Man" has been given back to Barry Allen in his return in "Final Crisis"). Theoretically, speeds greater than Mach 10, are dangerous to both the people and to the environment. This speed would still be the equivalent to approximately 2 miles per second, allowing him to cross the United States in about 23 minutes, or circle the world in about 3 hours, but the Speed Force has shown that if needed, Wally West can use it to prevent such effects from occurring, hence why he is able to run at speeds much faster than light on the planet Earth without it having devastating effects on the planet. He can also run across bodies of water and up the sides of buildings. Wally has shown that he can achieve practically any speed he wishes and that there are no limits to his speed. He has been able to casually move beyond the speed of thought, easily move so fast that even an attack moving at the speed of light seems to be standing still and at the same time scans the face of over five hundred thousand people for a specific expression in less than a picosecond. He is able to easily save and carry over half a million people 35 miles away from a Nuclear Warhead that had already detonated including the ones at ground zero in only 100 picoseconds, and even move so fast that he exists everywhere at once. He is able to casually reach speeds such as 500 times the speed of light. He has moved and ran so fast, that he was capable of outrunning and defeating death itself (the Black Flash) by outracing it to the end of time/space, past entropy, the next Big Bang and into the next Universe. His speed is so immeasurable that he has moved and reacted by the attosecond (an attosecond is one quintillionth of a second. To put this in perspective, one attosecond is to one second, what one second is to the age of the universe.), and has even reacted and calculated by the zeptosecond (Which is one trillionth of one billionth of one second.) and has other feats of speed that are immeasurable.

Superman is said to be able to rival the flash to an extent, so superman is at least hundreds if not thousands the speed of light. So my argument still stands. My argument is that even if Goku can produce an energy attack that can kill superman, he lacks the speed to hit him, and his lack of durability and ability to survive in space does him in. I fail to see how I twisted your words or avoided your argument. I openly admitted your calculations, at least to me, looked good even though I remembered reading power levels are not linear and that they are not a good way to powerscale. But I could not back this up so I agreed with you. Perhaps you should stop twisting my words.

Congratulations!....yeah my last message about the speed and stuff was a kind of an amateur way of proving speed in DBZ.

even Though it was proof, it was not much proof...just wanted to see if you would let it slide.

Congratulations ,you passed lol

but now it's time for the real stuff.
____________________________________________________
Master Roshi

After being fired upon by a soldier with a machine gun, Master Roshi was then able to turn around...then grab dozens bullets out of mid air.

Master Roshi- is then in a martial arts tournament match against krillin, in which they have an entire fight scene in 1 second.They punched and kicked each other, spit at one another, spent time thinking,and also had a short coversation and played a game.All of this in a single second.

Note that Roshi is also holding back.

Now in the next martial arts tournament Goku as a child had gotten so fast that when he moved in his fight against Tien master Roshi was unable to see him.

Think about that.....A man who can casually grab machine gun fire out of mid air, can't even see goku ,who is Thousands of times bigger than a bullet.

So as a child Goku is massively faster than a supersonic character like Roshi.

Now after goku drinks the mystic water he becomes even faster and when he fights tien who was on par with him before he can't even keep up with him...And goku speed blitzes him!

But goku still can't even touch Mr. Popo who is faster than lightning.

Now we're getting somewhere!

Lightning is about half the speed of light.

So Popo then takes young Goku under his wing.Popo also states that Kami is much faster and more powerful than he is.

So after training with POPO at Kami's place for 3 years.

Goku fights King piccolo at the martial arts tournament....during their fight KAMI!...could not see them! the guardian of the earth who is MUCH faster than POPO who faster than lightning.

This where i believe they hit light speed.

THIS VERY POINT
Goku vs Piccolo

but of course there will be an excuse coming from YOU my challenger.

So here is a study done by a fellow self thinker, that goes very in depth with scans and calculations that are very clear and easy to understand his findings are Irrefutable.

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/18-46445/combat-speed-of-dragon-ball-characters/92-649740/

I have double checked his study.
I have Re-researched his research....if that makes sense lol

He comes to a conclusion of DBZ hitting light speed a little later than i do.

Have a look.

I will write one last message to counter your arguement, and then I think we will stop as it seems as though we are both immovable forces clashing.

First off, there are no concrete numbers in that guys post at all. I believe my guy's post is far more accurate, and the Saiyans hit light speed around cell saga and probably more during Buu saga (although it is unsure how much except super saiyan 3 is 400x base form while super saiyan 2 is 200x or something). The guy even admits that Mr. Popo saying he is moving at light speed may be a hyperbole. The moon busting feats have no measurable time frame as well, we cannot say for sure how fast it took to destroy the moon. Did you read the other guys post below? He picks out many inconsistencies and assumptions that guy makes.

Also, if Goku is light speed, why did it take him 177 days to cross snake way which is 1,000,000 kilometers on the way and 2 days or so to get back? That feet puts him at average mach 30, which should have been child's play for him if he has enough energy to move at many times FTL while fighting and while injured. You may say "its combat speed, not movement speed," but it makes no logical sense to say that combat speed is faster than travel speed and the poster did not prove that fact. During combat, they focus energy into punching, kicking, analyzing, energy, and movement. During travel, they can focus it all on travel, and since two saiyans were coming to blow up the planet, I fail to see why Goku wouldn't book it.

You didn't even respond to the thing I found on speed calculations, so it seems as though we have reached a impasse or paradox. Even by the calculations I found, before fighting vegeta, he can move at 6480 m/s by power levels which would allow him to run snake way in about 42 hours or 1.78 days, give or take. It clearly took Goku two days and he was a couple hours late. The author of Dragonball later openly apologized for all of the inconsistencies of his series. Despite this, I will take stated numbers, power levels over assuming how long a still frame from a manga took.

My point is THERE IS NO PROOF COMBAT SPEED IS SUPERIOR TO MOVEMENT SPEED AND THE POSTER PUT NO NUMBERS IN AND MAKES A LOT OF ASSUMPTIONS. Until you can concretely prove these facts without assumptions, you have proven nothing about Goku's concrete speed. But I take it that your lack of responding to physical strength and durability points to the fact you agree Goku has low physical strength and durability.

Thank you for this argument, although the entire time you treated me like an inferior whiny fanboy who makes excuses. As I have stated before, I have never read superman, never watched superman, and don't own anything related to superman. The only things I know about him are from databases, fan calculations, and comic book scans. While in Dragonball, I have read most of the manga, grew up watching it, and have a poster of Dragonball Z in my room. So you can stop thinking of me as some sort on intellectually lower being because I have a different opinion than you. I see you are from Gary Indiana, why don't you come down to South Bend where I attend college and we can talk face to face if you feel so strongly about this?

I don't even understand how you can watch the series without realizing that they move way faster in combat than they do when flying.

They move fast enough to disappear while fighting....but they don't disappear while flying.

that in and of itself proves they are faster in short distances....I don't see how you can't understand that.

Gohan was able to snatch a bag of senzu beans from cell...without cell seeing him EVEN MOVE.cell was standing about seven or eight feet in front of him.

But gohan could never FLY fast enough to where Cell can't see him.



This in and of itself proves they move faster in short distances.(Combat Speed)

I find it hard to believe that you even watched the series, I find it hard to believe that you're a DBZ fan.

Because I have never met a dbz fan who DIDN'T KNOW THEY MOVE FASTER IN COMBAT THAN THEY DO WHEN FLYING....NEVER

Energy 100 - distance 50 then Speed is 2

Energy 100 - Distance 2 then their speed is 50

It's as simple as that....

and i do believe you are a Superman fan....you have the same behavior as them.

Ignoring all signs that point to the obvious.

Good day sir

Ok I lied, that wasn't my last post. You have made a few errors in your post, sorry for sounding so pissed off before.

1. You use anime as canon and take the feats shown as literal. That is a mistake that makes you lose all credibility in many battle forums. If anime was literal, Goku takes a couple seconds to charge Kamehameha. World busting attacks take seconds to minutes to hit the earth. Hardly anyone is FTL in that series. But I will humor you. You greatly overestimate faster then eye movement. People have estimated jets flying overhead at 1% of light speed will be too fast to see. Propellers moving 784 feet per second, below the speed of sound, are see through. Your argument is invalid.

2. Manga is considered true canon, and it is inconsistent as heck. When I first read Goku moving fast enough to counter Tien's solar flare, I thought he was faster than light speed. Then Dodoria and Cell use the same technique and are successful on beings that are far more powerful and faster than Goku at that time. That makes no sense. Going by Cell's solar flare, none of the Z fighters were faster than the speed of light (or were fast enough to react to him shouting the words by anime logic).

3. That energy/distance/speed thing makes no sense. When you start moving at lets say light speed, its not like after you use all your energy up, you just stop moving. Its called momentum. Cars moving 60 miles an hour don't just stop when they run out of gas. Even when you hit the breaks, they go a few feet. So if Goku is light speed even for a moment, if he continues that momentum, he would be able to cross snake way in far less than 177 days and I feel as though he was in a hurry due to two saiyans coming to blow up the earth.

So by using anime logic (which is non-canon and paradoxical) Z fighters are incredibly slow and inconsistent in their speed. By manga logic, the speed is even more inconsistent, somehow Piccolor Jr. Saga, they are lightspeed but in Frieza saga and Cella saga, they are not. What do you believe? And please, I feel insulted that you call me an anti-dbz fan when it was my childhood on toonami every single day. Also, if you want to sound credible, please refute my statements.