EPTI Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia - Page 62
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
ladies and gentlemen, your scum team! | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On July 19 2012 10:39 s0Lstice wrote: I'm starting to like this game more, because I have found scum. Listen up town, Mattchew is scum. Let's start here. Look at what he tells s&b. Your posts thus far could come from either town or scum i.e. are neutral. He then goes on listing problems with it. -longwinded -off topic -bad read -bad reasoning for vote ...and the conclusion from this is neutral. After listing reasons for finding something suspicious, your end result should be 'I am suspicious of you.' More, who accuses someone of not looking definitively town in their first few posts? Someone who already knows the alignment of the person they are addressing. It wasn't 's&b your first few posts are crap and scummy looking,' it was 's&b you haven't shown me you are town in your first few posts.' Those things you listed, are exactly what I said, neutral alignment. Its the intention behind these posts that I was trying to figure out. Do you disagree with what I said about S&B's posts? Do you draw alignment from people being long-winded, off-topic and playing poorly? Because if you do, you are going to vote a lot of mislynches. Look now at what he did on day 1. This was basically his scum-hunting: This would be a weak day 1 from anybody, but it is especially so from a vet. He leaves his vote on sciberbia and drops off the face of the earth. Compare that now to day 2, where he goes balls to the wall trying to get Talismania lynched. He is sure of himself, he convinces others to get on board. He basically doesn't leave it alone until he gets what he wants: a Talis lynch. Have a look: This is a mismatch, like he flipped a switch and all of a sudden he is a scum-finding machine. It also reeks again of Mattchew already knowing someone's alignment. Now let's move to after the lynch. What is he doing here? Why does he care so much about who is getting the credit for Talis' lynch? What's more, he's justifying it to the person who he is the next most suspicious of after Talis' lynch. Why even bother? Because who is getting the credit directly affects how well Mattchew's bus on Talismania worked. I thought Gonzaw was playing down my role in Talis getting lynched. I wanted to point out this inaccuracy and defend myself from his accusation. I posted later that I took too much from Scib, I just thought/think Gonzaw was intentionally down playing my role in the lynch. Now let's move on to night2/day2. He is supposedly trying to get Gonzaw lynched. Let's look at him pushing this case: The end. That is, until I called him out on it, then he is all about getting us on-board. This does not match with how he was pushing Talis. The early part of day 2 turned out to be a crucial time for Mattchew if he wanted his target lynched. At the time (earlier today) there was a lot of finger-pointing going on/discussion of things not gonzaw. I summarized it before, but I'll repeat it for shits and giggles. -Dropbear wants to kill Risen -s&b is suspicious of Risen -risen is suspicious of keir -we talk about the NK -we talk about the set-up -we talk about the mason claim We are definitely not focusing on gonzaw at that time. So Mattchew should be seeking to get us on track. But instead he is doing this: 'Gonzaw, my #1 scum read, could you please post your suspicions of me again so I can address them?' Doesn't fit. We were half way through day 2, starting to peel away from Mattchew's target, and he is asking his scum read to remake his case against him. Now for some extraneous stuff: -here's him swinging the WIFOM bat around: Well the first one is true, please go look at Marv's filter from Movie Star Mafia (Here's the link!) The second is pointing out someone else's WIFOM, not using it for my own, so thats stupid You call me a Vet, and you think that doing this would tell my alignment? NK shit: I don't care how you want to WIFOM around this, I have a very hard time thinking a scum team would leave Mattchew alone on N2 after he just wtfpwned Talis on day 2. He is a vet and a known good player. There was no N1 RB, so they could be reasonably sure that there was no JK. s&b does this fit with your early game thoughts on Marv? ;D Marv is generally regarded as a better player than me and Austin completely outplayed me LVI... they are both better with WAY less suspicions on them. But thanks for Batting back with NK WIFOM His dealings with Risen: Here is an older read on Risen: I question him on this. Risen has been making logic holes the size of Jupiter since his claim. A read, that lead off with the strength of Risen's logic and consistency, is not affected by Risen's recent logic and inconsistency? This really smells scummy. One last thing. Look at his opinion of the current state of the thread when we are talking about anything EXCEPT his top scum read: He thinks it's good that we are trying to find scum outside of gonzaw, even though he has already found it in gonzaw. This is stupid and untrue. I think that the day has been discussing the new information and therefore has been pretty productive. Also, my read on Risen is slightly less townie then before and during the night I plan to go back and read his filter assuming he is the cop, but that doesn't matter because regardless I WANT TO LYNCH SCUM TODAY. I said that people are talking about the lynch, which will help in making future reads. So, to sum up: 1. shitty day 1 scum hunting 2. extreme pursuit of Talis on day 2... 3. ...which doesn't match at all his pursuit of the gonzaw read 4. lack of pursuit on his 2nd main scumread 5. play which exhibits signs of Mattchew knowing people's alignment 6. very bad logic in his read on Risen 7. WIFOM batting us all 8. buddying 9. being alive after N2 I think Mattchew is scum and I want us to kill him today ##vote Mattchew TLDR 1. Wasn't around enough on the weekend to get a good start to the game. Played like shit day 1 is this alignment telling? 2. Yay I found scum! 3. We haven't actually completed the day and this day we have like 5 times more information than the last so its different 4. Is just number 3 again, but I haven't pushed anyone else and I still have time 5. I don't know where you point this out, but uh, how do I respond to something you just made up out of thin air? 6. My logic was not bad and I still believe that other than the Gonzaw read to stay alive gambit thingy, it is all still true, but that stiffles my focus on lynching Gonzaw 7. This is just untrue as I pointed out above 8. You either think I am stupid, or you realize this reasoning is stupid, you be the judge. 9. Night Kill WIFOM reasoning, right after number 7 too! | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
I hope to see lots of matt votes when I wake up | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
I still want responses to my case on Gonzaw, something s0lstice did not do. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On July 19 2012 11:20 s0Lstice wrote: EBWOP: sorry that wasn't fair. I'm being a dick now. I should really go to bed I hope to see lots of matt votes when I wake up Whoever ends up flipping you'll come around to my way of thinking. I hereby dub thee igrok the second. Thankfully, unlike with him your insistence on having the game figured out won't lose us the game. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 19 2012 00:29 sciberbia wrote: gonzaw My suspicions are kinda broken up over two previous posts and this one. To recap, here are reasons why I was suspicious of gonzaw after N1: -- has not actually contributed all that much to lynching scum I think what I posted on N1 and late-D2 sufficed. I also was actually trying to find scum somewhere else (in Risen, Mattchew, Keirathi, Milton, etc) and figure out their alignments. Read below (on "Defense to Mattchew's case") for more info. -- I feel like he's been buddying me I can't deny this. You are very apparent town and your posts make sense. "Buddying" has negative connotations though, so just take from it the above. -- he contradicted himself on one of keirathi's posts I don't remember this, but nevermind. -- marv died N1 Thank god I'm not Radfield if not that would have sufficed  -- he repeatedly said D1 was shitty It was, up until 5 hours from the lynch there was 0 consolidation on any target, and that Vivax wagon was pretty bad. -- he tried to get Mattchew lynched off what IMO is just not a scumtell (Mattchew's disappearence) Read my posts, there's more than that, although that certainly raises a red flag -- the 'milkton' possible scumslip lol that was funny -- talis gives some bad reasons for a townread on gonzaw D1 I can't speak for tali here. -- talis's reads seem like they were sheeped off gonzaw I'd argue that scumbuddies rarely show this kind of "support". I.e they rarely call each other town and sheep all their reads, they most likely bus or at least distance themselves. Here are further reasons I have to be suspicious of gonzaw for D2 and N2. I think austin as the NK is minor evidence against gonzaw I explained this in my last post Fair point, but it only works if you assume I'm scum. Also I think I would have shot you instead if I was scum, not austin (you were more apparent townie, made more sense, and actually planned on lynching me), since I would have figured out there wasn't a JK since nobody claimed RBed on N1. gonzaw seemed a bit slow to get on board with the talis lynch I think Mattchew talked about this in his case during N2. Read below on "Defense to Mattchew's case" Gonzaw made a small case against talis during N1. Within the first 12-18 hours of D2, Mattchew and I posted cases against talis, both of us confident that he was scum, and we both voted him. I think it was pretty clear that talis was the primary candidate for lynch at that point. But gonzaw didn't really address talis for quite a while, even though I explicitly asked him twice. Again read below. I think I should point out one thing: I never tried to push any other lynch, nor tried to stop the talis lynch at all. I'd make the argument that if I was scum I'd try to do one of those, or just straight up bus him since the beginning. *quotes from sciberbia and me* I thought I was pretty clear there, I didn't even finished reading the thread, so I didn't even read half the cases made against talis there or the responses from talis himself. If gonzaw is town, I'd have expected him to be a lot more enthusiastic about the talis lynch. He posted significant suspicions of talis during N1. Then Mattchew and I post very confident (I think persuasive) cases on talis at the beginning of D2. Whereas if gonzaw is scum, I can see him being rattled by so much suspicion on his godfather, and by the fact that I called out a possible talis + gonzaw scumteam. Which might explain why he didn't seem quite on point, as Mattchew pointed out. His D2 play definitely felt different than his D1 play. I guess it's possible he was just disturbed by fatigue and the fact that he seemed to be losing thread control, but his prancing around the talis issue doesn't bode too well for him. I was pretty fatigued, and there was a lot of work to do. I had to read like 10 pages or so and reread each persons filters and shit. You have to take into account that I ended N1 without "heavy" scum reads, just that I suddenly started to find talis suspicious because of his behaviour the other night, realized Mattchew was scummy as fuck, and was pretty troubled by S&B who I thought was scum by that point (but then figured out he could have been town all along). I was also not too sure on Keirathi by that point, someone I thought was scum on D1. I needed a lot to catch up to, and to reread the thread/filters a lot to make up my mind. As I started to see more and more people seemed pretty townie (austin, S&B, sciberbia, Keirathi and Milton to an extent) I grew more comfortable with the talis lynch as I was reading the thread, up to the point where I just voted him since I doubted I would change my mind even after rereading his filter (which I had not done by that point). Gonzaw's accusations of talis D2 felt misplaced Shortly before the deadline, gonzaw made two rather sizeable posts against talis. One with general accusations and then one reassuring people that talis's absence implicates him as scum. + Show Spoiler + On July 17 2012 06:05 gonzaw wrote: Can you comment on other issues? What about solstice, S&B, Mattchew, Risen, and all the stuff that was discussed about them? Of course who you want to lynch is a very important one (I'd like sciberbia to answer that though, doesn't hurt anybody) About talis: Before his "plan", I actually found him kind of town. He posted that graph of posts from all his last 5 games to "check his meta", and well that seems like a lot of effort (don't know if he did it in pre-game though). Plus the tone of some of the things he said and just a little gut feeling of the way he interacted with people made me think he was town at that point (and I get a little townie feels right now, although I don't know if I should take them into account or not). Hmm, the "plan" itself didn't seem scummy in my mind. It did spark some discussion, and to be honest I didn't really see the plan as "the most anti-town thing" in the way that I could see him posting it as town. His "gauging reactions" is null basically. The thing is that from that point onwards his play totally decays. He spends way too much time talking about the validity of his "plan", and spends way too much time just prodding Dropbear with the same stuff (Dropbear insta-voting Vivax). After that he doesn't seem to care in my mind. Responding to unrelated stuff he never follows (like telling marv about his "nice shit" on solstice, telling Risen to post his thoughts about what I said of him), having an "I don't care" attitude (when he posts thoughts about Milton and austin for instance, and the tone of his posts) and even having that attitude with his reads (like the ones in the post where he voted Dropbear) give me that feeling. The thing about his play decaying is that it didn't seem like he'd play like that at all once the game started. Once the game started and he started to have discussions about the setup, and the way he responded to people and stuff I had the feeling he'd keep up with that kind of play the whole game, which is why I didn't find him suspicious. But having his play decay so fast is worrying, since it makes it seem his "townie early D1" feel was just a façade. He seems to not care at all at the time of the lynch and after that (I've already posted about this on N1). He doesn't care about lynching Dropbear it seems, he's just there, asking some questions, blending in, doing shit and posting one-liners. That lack of effort and care about the lynch is damning. I'm trying to think if I'm wrong and he could have done that as town but I don't see many possibilities, specially because of this: That's the excuse he makes for his behaviour last day. That's no excuse to not care about the lynch. If he was actually at work refreshing the thread, it only means he doesn't have time to reread stuff (thread+filters), and think too much about things. That would actually indicate that his play should be more "reactive". As in, if he's constantly refreshing the thread, then his posts should be more of a reaction to what's posted each time he refreshes. As in, if someone votes Vivax or Dropbear he'd try to react to that, specially if the D1 lynch is at stake and he's just playing like I said he'd be playing. Even if he started to doubt Dropbear being scum (which he didn't show at all), at least he would have been more "anxious" and "nervous" considering the lynch wasn't decided until 3 minutes before the deadline. Any townie would be nervous by that point, specially if they were only paying attention to the thread by refreshing it constantly and not reading filters/etc. I can't see him doing that as town. Not only that, but his contributions from D2 are him either: -Just defending himself -Shitting on Mattchew The lack of effort is damning as hell. He doesn't even try. Hell he hasn't even posted at all for 24 hours or so I think. I find it more and more likely that he's scum knowing he was found and just not caring anymore. I get paranoid that he'd even act like this as town though, but hopefully is not the case. tl;dr: Talis is scum unless I'm paranoid about him playing like shit as town. About solstice I'm not really sure right now since him going against Risen seems legitimate for me, if I have time before leaving I'll reread him. There seems that a lot of people are treading to a modkill and that's not good. I'm leaving right at the deadline (I have to be in uni 30 minutes later), and I don't know if the flip will be "instantaneous" or not so I may not be around when tails flips, and I don't know when I'll come back (at most 3-4 hours from then, but I don't really know). + Show Spoiler + On July 17 2012 06:15 gonzaw wrote: That's what made me a little bit paranoid, but the thing is that there is almost no indication that he was frustrated. Take for instance a town VE going to be misslynched where he ragequits in frustration (basically every time he's town ).He always makes an initial effort to change the lynch off him, he always tries to at least reason a little bit with the people accusing him; and if he finds his efforts futile, then he quits in frustration. To quit in frustration it means you actually have to try to be frustrated in the first place, at least by justifying it in-game (if he's frustrated because his cat died and he sees everybody accusing him it would be another thing, but he hasn't said anything about it so I'll disregard it). I can't see someone quitting in frustration if there is no reason to be so frustrated in the first place, and if the first thing you do is quit before even trying to change the tide of the game (i.e not getting lynched, or hoping to catch some scum even if you are) then you are not likely town at all since no townie would do that. Also: These don't look like posts from someone "ragequitting". He's asking people and supposedly expecting their answers, you don't "ragequit" before you even hear them or acknowledge them. I don't see him quitting as "frustrated" at all.....but I'm paranoid that he's busy or some shit and doesn't care or something. Hopefully (like I said) that's not the case, and there are other tiny bits that make me think talis is scum. These were posted like an hour before the deadline. IMO, it was already abundantly clear that talis was going to be lynched. So these large posts accusing talis feel kinda unnecessary. I could see them from a town gonzaw but they do feel like a bus. Ehmm...Keirathi was subtly implying he wanted a NL at that point, surely convincing him not to NL would work in my favour...? I did notice solstive, Milton and Keirathi starting to get uncomfortable with the talis lynch and greatly implying they wanted a NL. I didn't want a NL, and I wanted a talis lynch, so I assured them of that. Of course then tali posted the "I broke my wrist which was why I couldn't post" which panicked me a little bit and made me reconsider NL (I think I remember you doing the same sciberbia >_> ), but nah there was no chance I'd choose NL at that point. wishy/washiness after D1 (or at least changes his mind a hell of a lot) Honestly by D3 I'd expect a player like gonzaw to have said "Player X is very likely scum. I demand that we lynch him." But he has seemed uncharacteristically wishy/washy since N1. His filter is quite long, but here are some examples: wishy/washiness on Mattchew:+ Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 12:39 gonzaw wrote: This is just too much. I had him as townie in early game but I can't believe a town Mattchew would do something like this, unless he was somehow hospitalized right after he made that post or something. Damn, I really thought he was town wtf is going on? :/ On July 15 2012 09:50 gonzaw wrote: I expect some serious explanation from Mattchew. Like, I thought he was town but what you did made no fucking sense I'm contemplating lynching you just because of it (specially since you went AFK all night just to make a stupid drunk post as well). On July 16 2012 06:28 gonzaw wrote: I see Mattchew just came right off the bat with a case and a vote...and I don't know if I like that (I didn't see him explaining wtf he did last day). On July 16 2012 06:53 gonzaw wrote: I'm torn because his earlier posts did seem townie, but that behaviour of his strikes some doubt (specially if it wasn't for some outside reason, like getting his internet connection cut or something). I'll try to drop the subject before reading this thread and his case on talis; but this is basically exclusive since it's about his earlier behaviour. On July 16 2012 07:04 gonzaw wrote: I'm talking about the action itself and how it isn't a "town tell" coming from Mattchew. I said I'm reading the thread later (I'm not actually seriously accusing him right now, at least not before reading his other posts), I just want a (justified) explanation for that previous behaviour of his (you can't tell me it wasn't odd as fuck, everybody noticed it). I already talked about his posting before his "derp", although I skimmed his posts afterwards (from this D2) and they aren't that "townie" as his first ones. On July 16 2012 11:45 gonzaw wrote: About Mattchew: I may agree with his case on talis (need to filter talis first), but after that he doesn't really do a good job of explaining himself (about his behaviour or why he thinks I'm scum). I don't like how he's casting suspicion on me right now either, yet refuses to say anything about me or why he changed his town read on me. However, I could see town Mattchew just not caring about his D1 fluke and thinking I'm shitting up the thread about it (thus making him a little bit more suspicious of me), but those reasons above don't make me confident in thinking he's town at all, specially since I know Mattchew is capable of doing that "fluke" as scum just to skate by D1, whether other people find it scummy or not (he wouldn't really care as scum). This is why I'm torn on him, and why I wanted that explanation from him. I would also like an explanation on what he thinks of sciberbia ever since early-D1 and why he changed his mind on me (him not responding these strike me as suspicious as well, since again I can easily see scum Mattchew just not caring about it at this point). He had a good start that made me think he was town but some of his actions and behaviour made me doubt that (since scum Matthew could have just tried to appear pro-town on early-D1 like that) On July 17 2012 06:55 gonzaw wrote: Mattchew wtf those posts you make are so scummy at times. You park your vote on talis, go AFK for the rest of the day and now you show up all "confident" and still lacking words about anything else. On July 17 2012 07:01 gonzaw wrote: Damn I dunno Ehm...I think the time is over already, but I wouldn't like a NL but rather lynch Mattchew right now. On July 17 2012 07:04 gonzaw wrote: Mattchew D3 lynch I say (seemed like bus and you are scummy as fuck) on strongandbig: + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 13:32 gonzaw wrote: About S&B: I want to lynch this guy tomorrow. ... Scummy as fuck. .. Like, he seems too scummy and nothing like his play in MTG (he was more active in discussion there, his posts made more sense, he wasn't this "trollish" and he didn't just post out of nowhere with random stuff?and didn't care about the current discussion, at least not when he was active). I could see him posting some stuff as town (like asking me about why I'm "not caring" about the setup, flip-flopping on his solstice read in that post seems like he was a townie changing his mind quickly, him backing off keiarth), but his attitude and content convince me otherwise. On July 15 2012 06:10 gonzaw wrote: Agh fuck this I can't shake that feeling from the other game and maybe you are genuinely frustrated at me with that vendetta of yours. If you are town please calm down and put more effort. On July 16 2012 06:28 gonzaw wrote: Skimming the thread, I got a weird feeling of solstice going against S&B, but that's maybe because I got a change of mind about S&B and wanted to give him a little break. on Risen+ Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 07:13 gonzaw wrote: Hmm, I'm getting the feeling you are town Risen, you are too invested in the game and really care about the lynch, and you are very active at it and act too "cool" around it. Don't know what Vivax was saying about you being scum, might need to reread. On July 14 2012 13:02 gonzaw wrote: It does seem like you are over-enthusiastic townie instead of scum (because scum rarely do what you did and try to take complete control of D1 and be active as shit), but hey!, after your LIII game I won't take any chances with you, and it's possible you'll do this as scum. On July 17 2012 07:04 gonzaw wrote: Mattchew D3 lynch I say (seemed like bus and you are scummy as fuck) Risen could be, he hasn't done shit. Maybe not so much on Risen. But it's at least fair to say he hasn't taken a hard stance one way or the other. He doesn't strongly accuse anyone at all until his "YOU ARE SCUM" post on talis an hour before the deadline. He seems neutralish on keirathi/miltonkram. He leans town on dropbear. He says he thinks s0Lstice is scum, but I don't see a whole lot of reasoning on s0Lstice. I didn't really have the time to reread solstice filter >_> (I still don't, I don't think I've read it by now). I was not wishy washy about S&B, I explicitly said I thought he was town later. Yes some of my other reads may seem "wishy-washy", but I didn't think that would be a problem if I expressed my whole thought process (for instance on Risen or Mattchew) Reaction at beginning of D3 His reaction to the cop claim is kinda fishy. He asks, "Did you check me or not?", which sounds like a mafia talking. He also keeps his options open by disappearing for a little while (or maybe he is just busy). I didn't know what to think of Risen by that point (specially since I thought he claimed mason >_>), I didn't know if he checked me or not so I didn't know if I had to consider him "confirmed mafia" from my POV or not. I was actually thinking something like "Wait...then Risen is scum? Like confirmed scum?...really? Well lol what a surprise" or something like that when it was implied (or said I don't remember) that he checked me last night. IN CONCLUSION I think gonzaw is our best lynch today. It's reassuring that Mattchew and strongandbig seem to think so as well. Still, I'm not as sure about him as I was about talismania. I wouldn't be that surprised if he is town. So I'm going to withhold my vote for now. My next strongest scumread after gonzaw would probably be s0Lstice right now (maybe keirathi), but s0Lstice was cleared by Risen so I don't think I'd feel good about lynching him today. I think I'll end up voting gonzaw, but I want to see him make some posts first. @gonzaw Please make a case against your top scumread. During D2 you said you thought s0Lstice was scum but I don't see a case against him. Do you still think s0Lstice is scum? What about Mattchew? I didn't have time to reread solstice filters, but Risens claim can only make solstice scum if Risen is scum. (I'll restate, I haven't reread his filter yet) also some of his responses today seemed kind of genuine. If he was scum then Risen had to be scum....yet his reaction to Risen's claim doesn't seem planned (if both were scum they would HAVE to be planned). Like, Risen calls me scum and "claims" cop (I don't know where the hell he claimed to be honest), then solstice votes me without saying a word calling me "scum" and shit, then he starts doubting Risen's claim about how he checked S&B N1 and stuff and unvotes me, and then Risen claims he didn't have a scum check on me. I seriously doubt they'd make such a weird play as scum....since wtf did it produce? Like it would need HEAVY amounts of planning for no reward at all (unless again, they planned on someone noticing this and thinking they are town because it didn't make sense). Plus it would mean Mattchew is town, which I doubt at this point. Defense to Mattchew's case: On July 18 2012 04:11 Mattchew wrote: I think Gonzaw is scum. I think a lot of people are taken back by how much he posts and use that effort to determine his alignment and I think they are wrong I agree that effort shouldn't really be taken into consideration alone considering me.But you have to take into account what I spend that effort on Do I spend lots of effort in just posting fluff and tunneling one guy throughout the whole game or something? Or do I spend lots of effort trying to figure out the alignment of people, and try to have some order and get people's opinions and such? You can't just say "ignore his effort". This is his first attempt at scum hunting. It is lazy and general, making "cases" on multiple people and trying to shift conversation onto those who haven't posted much instead of actually reading into the people that have posted actively at that point in the game. He is basically saying lets lynch the lurkers, something in the Policy lynching thread he said would lead to town losses + Show Spoiler + On June 07 2012 15:42 gonzaw wrote: The thing is that when policy lynches haven't been enforced yet in previous games, starting to enforce them in a specific game creates a shitstorm and would most likely murder that game. Imagine that a certain game starts, and everybody decides to policy lynch lurkers. So you lynch your 1st lurker on D1. He would be most likely town, but no worries, you think everybody else will stop lurking by now and we solve the problem right? Wrong, players that lurked until then will keep lurking (or being inactive for stuff from real life), and you'll keep policy lynching them throughout the game, most likely earning scum a win and making the game boring as hell. Yes, if many games enforced a "lurkers" policy lynch, then the more time goes on the larger the probability of there being fewer and fewer lurkers in games. However that comes with the cost of maybe making each game it's implemented a total chaos, and those (specially town) that play those games want to win them, and they know that by just policy lynching lurkers that isn't achieved so there's less incentive to enforce them. That was the "Lynch lurkers" policy, if you do the "Lynch blue claims" policy you'll do the same thing since blue claims will still start showing up (hi VE!) and you'll still end up lynching them and them flipping blue, again making the games more boring and shittier for town (or for scum if they wanted to make an epic play or something). It's like being fat and starting to diet and exercise. You know it's good in the long run, but as soon as you start it you hate it because it ruins everything to you in the present and makes things uncomfortable. So, is TL Mafia willing to drop weight or not? Maybe someone can spare a liposuction so we avoid this altogether >_>. That was not my purpose, my purpose was to.. On July 12 2012 10:44 Mattchew wrote: He wasn't pushing lurkers he was pushing people that posted that sounded excited to participate and post and then didn't. Oh looks like someone took the words out of my mouth.....oh wait it was you who said that. Okay, being serious here, you can't accuse me of doing something that both me and you acknowledged differently before. It wasn't "lynch lurkers", it was "lynch guys that were active, seemed eager to post but then went completely inactive ignoring everything in the thread". The only thing being talked about by that point was the talis plan and how it sucked, so I decided to bring some more discussion going on to speed things up. Even you said you "liked my effort" about it, and even you said it made you think I was town Anyone see a name that sticks out in this post? Again with lazy scum hunting equivicating effort in the thread to alignment something he SAYS So heres a nice lumping of a scum player into a group of names while contradicting himself I don't get this...? What's actually scummy about what I just said there? I had some town reads, and scum guys (you 3) who were not those town reads, and I also found suspicious because of that "post but never come back" behaviour. I also found austin suspicious because of that post of his....what contradiction are you talking about? Actually don't answer that, there's no contradiction, and if there is one it still doesn't mean I'm scum These two posts are where he drops suspicions on Austin, his strongest read from before. After posting a ton about him being scummy, his reasoning for him not thinking austin is scum is a small one liner. This looks more like scum admitting defeat on their attempt at a mislynch then town changing their mind, especially a town gonzaw (mind you we don't know austin's alignment) Yes, I posted tons about austin, thought he was scummy. sciberbia or someone else made a gigantic post with quotes from his play in another game he was town, and that convinced me not to push his lynch furteher. Not only that, I was suspicious of austin because I thought he was thinking Risen was town since the beginning yet wasted effort in searching his filter, but marv and scib told me I was misunderstanding him. The fact that I was wrong about that, and the fact that austin's "verbose posts" are part of his town meta discouraged me of pushing him further. An no, the bolded part is still confirmation bias. This is gonzaw's vote on Vivax day 1. This is not as telling of his alignment as many of the other things but it still is questionable. He has what he believes are 3 solid scum reads, Keithrathi, S&B, and Dropbear, yet votes someone else just for the sake of having a lynch. I can't tell if this was irresponsible or scummy Here: On July 14 2012 06:49 gonzaw wrote: .What the hell is wrong with you marv? Get off my back and stop nitpicking everything I say. I already voted Keirathi. Shit I don't have time to read the thread, I just skimmed and saw some posts from Vivax and at least he seemed active (didn't read its content), but Dropbear isn't even here. Fuck it I hate majority lynches, but here it goes: ##Unvote: Keirathi ##Vote: Dropbear Hopefully I reread the thread quickly before the lynch but I doubt it. I did vote Dropbear, and I wanted him lynched instead of Vivax. You can see the time there: 06:54 That was 6 minutes before the deadline, when Vivax had only 6 votes and Dropbear 5. If I hadn't switched there was going to be a no-lynch, since nobody changed their vote to Dropbear at all. I did that to avoid the NL, and the stress of that and the cases from other people had started to cloud my judgment where I started doubting my town read on Vivax saying to myself "Maybe he is scum". I also didn't have time to read the thread at all, so I didn't even know what Vivax posted or what Dropbear posted, so I couldn't do shit but either "lynch this guy" or "force NL". This isn't a lie per-say but he has been pushing for his lynch for a while. He even said right after Vivax flipped that he REALLY wanted to lynch S&B, which is either a lie or a vote (just not techinically) This is the first post Gonzaw makes after me and scib make our cases and talis makes his awful responses to them. He then follows that post up with all of this discussion of where I was during the day 1 lynch, instead of talking about Talis (who he even supposidly found suspicious the night before. Why isn't he focused on the scum hunting going on in the thread instead of a mattchew whereabouts witchhunt + Show Spoiler + On July 16 2012 06:42 gonzaw wrote: Yes you were, don't lie: On July 16 2012 06:49 gonzaw wrote: Not without explaining why you kept your vote on sciberbia (if you knew you weren't going to be back before the deadline) ro explaining anything at all or if you still thought sciberbia was scum. Or anything at all basically. People not giving you an exact vote count isn't an excuse to waste your vote, leave the thread and come back 24 hours later without giving a shit about the lynch. On July 16 2012 06:53 gonzaw wrote: Mattchew did very similar stuff in MTG. He went AFK for the WHOLE D1 and he didn't give a fuck about being called out. Him being afk itself isn't worrying, it's worrying when it's obvious he doesn't give a shit about anything and isn't even trying to explain himself about his inactivity and lack of effort. I'm torn because his earlier posts did seem townie, but that behaviour of his strikes some doubt (specially if it wasn't for some outside reason, like getting his internet connection cut or something). I'll try to drop the subject before reading this thread and his case on talis; but this is basically exclusive since it's about his earlier behaviour. That was marv On July 16 2012 07:01 gonzaw wrote: Vivax wasn't the 100% sure lynch at that point. Dropbear already had votes, and to be honest you could have voted for someone else like austin, Keriathi, etc since they had votes as well. What made you keep your vote on sciberbia and not even consider changing it? What made you not even discuss about it? Or were you in too much of a hurry to explain stuff? If so you could have mentioned you were in a hurry before so we'd avoid this whole mess On July 16 2012 07:04 gonzaw wrote: I'm talking about the action itself and how it isn't a "town tell" coming from Mattchew. I said I'm reading the thread later (I'm not actually seriously accusing him right now, at least not before reading his other posts), I just want a (justified) explanation for that previous behaviour of his (you can't tell me it wasn't odd as fuck, everybody noticed it). I already talked about his posting before his "derp", although I skimmed his posts afterwards (from this D2) and they aren't that "townie" as his first ones. On July 16 2012 07:12 gonzaw wrote: If he was scum and did it on purpose yes (if he's town then he obviously didn't think about it). I guess you don't know scum Mattchew and what he's capable of. Some scum don't give a shit about slight "WIFOMy" suspicion on themselves if they can get it away easily later or shift attention elsewhere and keep doing what they do. Risen, Mattchew, Palmar, Ace, etc are some players that tend to act like that as scum every once and then I don't know if its a busytell if I don't get a reasonable explanation for it. He WAS active when he made those posts, and there were lots of discussion going on about Vivax, Dropbear, Keirathi, solstice, etc. At that point in time (if he didn't just come, post and immediately leave) there were tons of things he could have done to help town, keeping his vote on sciberbia and not explaining anything isn't part of that. Unless he was in such a hurry he only had time to post and not read the thread at all (and he still believed sciberbia was scum); then it's not a "busytell" and it's odd as fuck. Him not explaining himself at all until I JUST asked him to is odd as fuck as well. (damn, I see this is taking quite a detour in town discussion. Matt please explain EVERYTHING that went through your mind at that time and what you did (i.e what activity you had, if you were actually reading the thread or just posted and left, etc) so we can get this over with) Look at this post here. Its a lengthy diatribe about myself and Keithrathi, followed by FINALLY a mentioning of his suspicions on Talis. It seems like this was literally forced out of him, and its not like he even mentions any reasons for thinking the way he does. He seems to be trying to go with the flow, but not pushing it at all. He literally does not add anything to the Talis lynch other than his vote. + Show Spoiler + On July 16 2012 11:45 gonzaw wrote: Okay, I've been rereading some stuff and I drop my suspicion of austin, I just can't see him as scum at the moment. Some of that stuff you guys (sciberbia && austin) said makes sense. Plus what I said last night (that S&B's actions did make sense with him being overly frustrated at me, plus his suspicion of solstice and shit) it's likely he's town. Okay, 2 conundrums resolved, now onto talismania/Dropbear/solstice/Mattchew/Risen/Keirathi Just by gut feeling without reading those cases (again, sorry really don't have the time, I'm putting lots of effort in that other mafia game....hey if you guys want you can check it out if I link it to you, you can learn one thing or two ) I get the feeling the scum are there and nowhere else.I haven't checked Milton too much, but I get a feeling he's town, specially because of his stance on talis which he changed after people pointed out how "bad" it was (in the sense that he was only talking about meta). His case on Dropbear seems legit, since I can't really see him heavily accusing someone that considers him almost confirmed town as scum. So by process of elimination (sciberbia, S&B, austin, Milton), it leaves those 6, with 3-4 anti town factions (scum+SK), so I think this day will be a good one. About Keirathi: I get the feeling Keirathi is town but I'm not that sure, I wouldn't mind leaving him for later. Basically, some of what I said earlier applies, in the sense that he didn't really try to scumhunt until being called out (by marv), and those reads seemed pretty bad (specially the one on S&B). After that he spent most of his time defending himself and not really trying to scumhunt. Plus since N1 and D2 I didn't see him do anything constructive at all (hell did he even post in D2?). His defense of Vivax could have given him town points...but I'm not sure (scum opposing a town misslynch on D1 isn't uncommon at all). There are little things that make me think he's town (I've explained them already I think), and tiny bits of reaction he made that I don't really see him making as scum. However those reactions were basically the only thing in his filter at some points, and there was very little scumhunting in between. Now that I look at the tone of his posts it seems townie too me though (gut feeling) so maybe he's likely town I just noticed this: So I guess that's the reason he wasn't active. Hmm, I'm slightly leaning town but I'm not that sure. Just like Risen I need him to actually do something today to solidify my read on him I already discussed Risen (I'm waiting for him to come back), and I'll discuss Mattchew a little bit: About Mattchew: I like these since they are concise and give good info. Talis plan was bad and he immediately pointed out without dragging it on. He pointed out the "root" of my accusation and basically agreed with it, even though he was one of the guys I accused (and I mentioned before I wouldn't really expect this from scum Matt, I thought he'd either ignore it or shit on it). His next posts are good as well, I like how he's not shitting on me and reads me okay by that point (that might be a little biased though ).He does make contributions that are indeed "concise" and improve town's atmosphere. He even goes to great length to defend Vivax from marv even before the Vivax wagon started. As well as his read on S&B. So far (assuming S&B is town) that would be a VERY passive game for Mattchew to make as scum, in the sense that he doesn't start shitting and accusing townies left and right, but actually making sense and getting those townies to be recognized as such. His later posts don't really seem the same way (trying to improve town), yet seem more like slightly irrelevant one-liners. Him defending Dropbear and me does seem townie though. However, after that he makes his blunder, where he posts asking for the vote count, but doesn't do shit and keeps his vote on sciberbia. I found this extremely scummy because he WAS active then and as a townie would have cared more about the lynch (and his vote), yet he didn't seem to care. I find it odd as well how now Mattchew seems to avoid that issue and not give me an explanation at all (was he really busy and in a hurry or was he lurking the thread at that point?) that could completely remove my suspicion on him (well not "completely" but I would disregard it). I don't like this drunk post at all: Since I don't know wtf he's saying and why he thinks I'm scum. Here he posts sober but fails to explain his behaviour last day, even though he should have read that me+marv+others found it suspicious as fuck. From then he seemed less interested in improving town's atmosphere than early-D1. He didn't explain himself at all, and throughout all N1 didn't do shit. I may agree with his case on talis (need to filter talis first), but after that he doesn't really do a good job of explaining himself (about his behaviour or why he thinks I'm scum). I don't like how he's casting suspicion on me right now either, yet refuses to say anything about me or why he changed his town read on me. However, I could see town Mattchew just not caring about his D1 fluke and thinking I'm shitting up the thread about it (thus making him a little bit more suspicious of me), but those reasons above don't make me confident in thinking he's town at all, specially since I know Mattchew is capable of doing that "fluke" as scum just to skate by D1, whether other people find it scummy or not (he wouldn't really care as scum). This is why I'm torn on him, and why I wanted that explanation from him. I would also like an explanation on what he thinks of sciberbia ever since early-D1 and why he changed his mind on me (him not responding these strike me as suspicious as well, since again I can easily see scum Mattchew just not caring about it at this point). He had a good start that made me think he was town but some of his actions and behaviour made me doubt that (since scum Matthew could have just tried to appear pro-town on early-D1 like that) Holy shit that was long. Anyways, I do feel solstice+talismania are scum, and well didn't really read on Dropbear yet (or these new cases) so I'll do it shortly. I don't really know how to decipher the talis/Dropbear situation (if one is scum, or both are scum, etc), but I'll give it a try. For now I wouldn't oppose a talismania lynch at all by what I've skimmed (plus talismania has basically been useless all late-D1, and all D2 as well). I don't know if maybe I'd support a solstice lynch better, or if I change my mind and find Dropbear more scummy, but we'll see once I read the thread once and for all! Stay tuned. On July 16 2012 11:47 gonzaw wrote: Fuck it I doubt I'll change my mind about talismania. ##Vote: talismania Just wanted to get the vote out there for a more "official" standing of what I said before. I added to the "talis lynch" with my night post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=35#683 And I already said what I had to say about his play. There was plenty of time in the day, so I decided to make up my mind about other issues (S&B, you, etc). I already had my mind set on talis being suspicious, and he was going to be a good lynch (either him or solstice at that point). One of the things I did was start reading the D2 thread, and every time an interesting post appeared (for instance an accusation against S&B, or Dropbear) I'd read the filter of this guy and make up my mind about him, and add it to my post. Once I finished reading the thread, I already had all those thoughts and had already posted about a bunch of stuff, so then I decided to go back and read talis' filter, which is when I posted about him. There's no way you can accuse me of "not caring" or "not trying" because you can see me posting every hour or so. I was actively reading the thread and filters each time. I won't change the way I do it just to satisfy your "contribute to the talis lynch" fascination I post to help town win the game; I didn't have any trouble with a talis lynch by that time and agreed with it, and other people did too, so I decided to contribute to town in other ways. I wasn't trying to "appear pro-town and shit" by rushing to make a case against tali as soon as possible. So now, not when we are mislynching, does the weight of a No Lynch is really weigh on Gonzaw? Its like he is trying to use Keirathi's, (someone he should still believe to be scum at this point, I think?) anxiety to allow him to back out of the Talis lynch. Gonzaw is scum and should be lynched tomorrow. talis came back and said he had a broken wrist. That made my heart jump out since his lack of contributions and disappearance was part of why I found him suspicious. I panicked but I didn't want a NL. As you can see solstice and Keirathi didn't want a talis lynched, hell solstice even asked me to NL: On July 17 2012 06:58 s0Lstice wrote: we have two minutes. gonzaw, is a no lynch at all in your head? I think you are scum because of this reason as well. You accuse me of something that you can more easily accuse someone else of, yet you ignore that guy and focus on me instead. I didn't want a NL, so I didn't NL. Why do you accuse me of this and not solstice for instance? Or Keirathi who didn't want a talis lynch either and voted sciberbia? Not only this, but you ignore everything I did. I've posted pages and pages of my thoughts on people, yet you completely ignore them. For you it's "post case on talis"=="town"; "don't post case on talis"=="scum" and that's it, everything else doesn't matter at all. You posted a "case" against talis (which was 90% based on his case on Dropbear. You care against him wasn't even that detailed or required much effort, as say the cases from sciberbia or austin, or hell even the one I posted in N1 and late D2), posted one-liners like "lynch talis", and that's it. How does that make you town? How am I supposed to know you are not town but instead bussed talis as a scum ploy? You did nothing other than park your vote and post one-liners, all the work to lynch talis was done by other people. As you remember S&B wanted to kill Dropbear, solstice wanted to kill S&B, Keriathi was AFK and then went talking about sciberbia, Risen and Dropbear were AFK, and Milton was just there wanting to lynch Dropbear and disliking the talis lynch. sciberbia and austin where the only ones trying to convince these people to change their vote to talis, you just parked your vote and did nothing else, yet time and time again you consider yourself like "confirmed town" because you "contributed to the talis case" and you tried to take all the credit from other people because of it. Actually, speaking of Milton he seemed wishy-washy about the talis lynch, and then disappeared for like 30 hours or something. Hmm I'll have to check him again. Holy mother of god! That was huge. I'm starting to get 2nd feelings about Milton, I'll recheck him. If I have time I'll reread Dropbear's, solstice's (just in case) and Keirathi's filters, but I don't know if I'll have the time. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Damn didn't think it would be so long | ||
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sciberbia
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How likely do you think s0Lstice is to be scum? I'm getting more and more suspicious of him. Look at all the interactions between s0Lstice and talis in their respective filters. | ||
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sciberbia
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gonzaw
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On July 19 2012 12:12 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw How likely do you think s0Lstice is to be scum? I'm getting more and more suspicious of him. Look at all the interactions between s0Lstice and talis in their respective filters. Yes, but now he made that case on Mattchew (just read the headline, not it's content yet), and if he's scum Risen HAS to be scum....I don't know why Risen would make a scum play that outed his scum team in such a way. I'll say one thing though, I don't think Keirathi is scum at all (at least one thing I'm kind of sure today). He's interacting too much with people this day and the way he posts his reasoning seems townie. Plus he seems genuinely frustrated at Risen going against him. I actually kind of thought Keirathi's plan was good when he posted it, since I'm paranoid of Risen doing this as scum so we could be safe of that scenario. I can't say much without reading filters again, but right now I'm kind of leaning towards a Matt+Milton scum team It seems to me Milton is trying to blend in this day. I have only seen him post some questions, and some irrelevant stuff but he doesn't participate in any discussion or anything, and apparently he wants to lynch me now as well. Also this post raised a red flag to me, specially with him opposing the talis lynch, and posting some stuff that didn't really matter and that he never came back to about Vivax and sciberbia/solstice: On July 17 2012 03:27 Miltonkram wrote: Regarding the case on talismania, I'm really uncomfortable about it. There's a lot in his filter that I find strange such as his obsession with his D1 plan and his subpar case-making. The thing that gives me pause is the fact that he continued commenting on his plan despite getting a ton of shit for it. I realize this is completely different from what I was saying earlier, but the fact that he followed his plan through to completion, whether or not it was a good plan in other people's eyes, gives me the impression that he thought it was a good plan. His D1 plan counts as a townie point in my book. Talismania's case-making against DropBear and in general has been subpar. I find that the scummiest point against him. Sciberbia, s0Lstice and I all played in Newbie Mini XV with Vivax. He's been a scummy-as-fuck town player for quite a while. I meant to point this out before the D1 lynch, but I was in a rush and it slipped my mind. The fact that none of us pointed this out should count as an extremely scummy point against all three of us. I have to run, I'm visiting family. I should be back in the thread in a while. In the meantime I would appreciate it if people would read through each of our filters extremely thoroughly. I know I'm town, but I include my name in this to be fair to both sciberbia and s0Lstice. ...then again he made this post in D1: On July 13 2012 06:35 Miltonkram wrote: I think I've bumped into a pretty decent scumtell while catching up on the thread. Talismania has spent quite a few posts explaining his proposal and why we all should be forward with our impressions of players. With that in mind, don't you think he would start posting something that amounts to pressure? He really hasn't besides his most recent post against dropbear and even that is pretty weak. Looking through his filter he seems awfully defensive about the plan he came up with. Let me state this so as not to cause confusion, I don't find the fact that he came up with the plan scummy, I find the amount of time he's spent defending himself from the fallout of his plan scummy. I think he's spent 3 or 4 posts just defending himself. I'm looking at his "Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan" post. It seems like a forced way of making some sort of analysis come from his proposal. He seems to think that so many people agreeing that it's a bad plan is bandwagoning of opinion, and thus scummy. I disagree, I think anyone can see that it's a bad plan and it would be a bad idea to agree with it, scum or town. He's shat up a bunch of the thread talking about his proposal or trying to derail the discussion towards it. I'll post more reads on players as they come to me. He's casting doubt on his GF too early, and I don't know if he'd bus him like that early. *sigh* I fucking hate this, I don't have time to play any game properly :/ | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Milton claimed RBed....I doubt scum have 1 Godfather, 1 RBer and 1 Framer (or replace Framer with another Godfather). It's likely scum have at least 1 Goon, not just because of the C9++ setup this one is based on but because like every single normal mafia game in mafia history has at least 1 Goon in it. Also I want to hear more from Dropbear, does he have any scum read at all? I saw he wanted to lynch Risen following Keirathi's plan........so? Why won't he want to lynch scum? Does he think someone is scum? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 19 2012 12:28 gonzaw wrote: Framers only frame townies to get a red check (never heard of framers being able to frame their own buddies to get them to check "town"...that's what Godfathers do). That was my assumption of what framers do as well. That being said, the only experience I've ever had with Framer's was in sc2 mafia, which has its own list of weird rules, but in that you can only frame townies to appear red, not friendlies to appear green. | ||
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Keirathi
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gonzaw
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Milton claimed RBed after Risen claimed cop, am I right? If scum don't have a RBer, then both Milton and Risen have to be scum, since there's no way scum Milton would fake-claim RBer when there's a cop with a "suspicious" claim they would need to RB later. I.e scum killing Risen instead of RBing him would indicate they don't have a RBer in the first place, outing Milton. If scum do have an RBer, then why didn't they RB on N1? Meh there are so many possibilities in this game. Also sciberbia where you RBed or not? I think not since nobody claimed RBed on N1 (i.e there's no JK). I appreciate trying to confuse scum about it, but you are confusing town even more since we can't make sense of Milton's RB claim either (since maybe a JK jailed Milton if you claim RB as well). sciberbia, Keirathi, what do you think of Milton? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
If Risen and Milton are scum, then there would only be 1/2 Masons (really, if no mason claims soon I'll assume there was only 1 mason and austin lied for some reason when he died), meaning scum would need to have 2 Goons (since town have little blues) based on the "similar" C9+ setup (even if it's not exactly like C9+, it's similar, if town has more blues scum have more powers, if town has less blues scum have less power), meaning they don't have a RBer. We have 3 lynches to catch 1 scum right? Mattchew->Milton->Risen (if Milton flips scum) would be a good "lynch sequence" I think. Oh forgot about Dropbear. Aw damn now I need to reread his filter  | ||
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Risen
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Risen
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