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On June 19 2012 04:37 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 04:33 Horseballs wrote:On June 19 2012 04:23 Toadvine wrote:On June 19 2012 04:05 Blyadischa wrote:On June 19 2012 03:55 Veriol wrote:On June 19 2012 03:08 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 19 2012 02:58 Veriol wrote:
I love how after month of non-winning terrans "'quit'' the game :D not like Z/P was loosing for the whole existance of sc2.. Just get grip on urselves; wait and see how it evolve or even i dont know .. try to think of something (qxc bunker). Why should Terran evolve ? That's what they always did during the life of the game. On other hand, Protoss and Zerg whined over and over to mother Blizzard asking for buffs instead of trying new composition. Also I can't fully blame Blizzard. They had to choose between losing 2 thirds of their player pool ( Z and P ) or just 1 third. They made the obvious decision, since they are a business. Enjoy your ladder with only two races. GLHF. LOL... yeah because zvp is still 2base roach hydra; zvt is still 2base muta .. pvz is still 3gate expand; pvt is still colos timing Nothing new in these matchups! Zerg and protoss evolved to exploit buffs of their races and nerfs of terran, they did little when their races were disadvantaged. Zergs and protosses whine first, and adapt later. Terran has had to change their play style under the constant nerfs of blizzard. Terrans have had to adapt first, and only now is terran bitching about the shitty job of blizzard. Yeah bro, I mean, TvP has evolved massively, and is not at all completely identical to how people played in the Beta, People used to mech and use bio tank vs protoss. Then tanks were nerfed. Then they tried using thor strategies. Then thors were nerfed. Even then there were a few holdouts trying mech vs protoss, but then hellions were nerfed, cementing the fact that blizzard doesn't want anything other than mawines mawauders and medivacs in tvp. So ironically, if Blizzard hadn't nerfed terrans over, and over and over again, mech TvP might still be viable and there would be no need from Blizzard to invent the stupid warhound to fix TvP mech. They created the problem they are now trying to fix.
Exactly. Take Energy off Thors and Battlecruisers and all will be right with the mech world in TvP.
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4713 Posts
On June 19 2012 05:08 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 04:37 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 04:33 Horseballs wrote:On June 19 2012 04:23 Toadvine wrote:On June 19 2012 04:05 Blyadischa wrote:On June 19 2012 03:55 Veriol wrote:On June 19 2012 03:08 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 19 2012 02:58 Veriol wrote:
I love how after month of non-winning terrans "'quit'' the game :D not like Z/P was loosing for the whole existance of sc2.. Just get grip on urselves; wait and see how it evolve or even i dont know .. try to think of something (qxc bunker). Why should Terran evolve ? That's what they always did during the life of the game. On other hand, Protoss and Zerg whined over and over to mother Blizzard asking for buffs instead of trying new composition. Also I can't fully blame Blizzard. They had to choose between losing 2 thirds of their player pool ( Z and P ) or just 1 third. They made the obvious decision, since they are a business. Enjoy your ladder with only two races. GLHF. LOL... yeah because zvp is still 2base roach hydra; zvt is still 2base muta .. pvz is still 3gate expand; pvt is still colos timing Nothing new in these matchups! Zerg and protoss evolved to exploit buffs of their races and nerfs of terran, they did little when their races were disadvantaged. Zergs and protosses whine first, and adapt later. Terran has had to change their play style under the constant nerfs of blizzard. Terrans have had to adapt first, and only now is terran bitching about the shitty job of blizzard. Yeah bro, I mean, TvP has evolved massively, and is not at all completely identical to how people played in the Beta, People used to mech and use bio tank vs protoss. Then tanks were nerfed. Then they tried using thor strategies. Then thors were nerfed. Even then there were a few holdouts trying mech vs protoss, but then hellions were nerfed, cementing the fact that blizzard doesn't want anything other than mawines mawauders and medivacs in tvp. So ironically, if Blizzard hadn't nerfed terrans over, and over and over again, mech TvP might still be viable and there would be no need from Blizzard to invent the stupid warhound to fix TvP mech. They created the problem they are now trying to fix. Exactly. Take Energy off Thors and Battlecruisers and all will be right with the mech world in TvP.
Not exactly, mech still won't have enough space control with the tank nerf that reduced their damage to 35 vs light. And hellions still don't provide enough of a buffer, maybe they could with the old BFH and the tank damage.
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On June 19 2012 05:24 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 05:08 Figgy wrote:On June 19 2012 04:37 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 04:33 Horseballs wrote:On June 19 2012 04:23 Toadvine wrote:On June 19 2012 04:05 Blyadischa wrote:On June 19 2012 03:55 Veriol wrote:On June 19 2012 03:08 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 19 2012 02:58 Veriol wrote:
I love how after month of non-winning terrans "'quit'' the game :D not like Z/P was loosing for the whole existance of sc2.. Just get grip on urselves; wait and see how it evolve or even i dont know .. try to think of something (qxc bunker). Why should Terran evolve ? That's what they always did during the life of the game. On other hand, Protoss and Zerg whined over and over to mother Blizzard asking for buffs instead of trying new composition. Also I can't fully blame Blizzard. They had to choose between losing 2 thirds of their player pool ( Z and P ) or just 1 third. They made the obvious decision, since they are a business. Enjoy your ladder with only two races. GLHF. LOL... yeah because zvp is still 2base roach hydra; zvt is still 2base muta .. pvz is still 3gate expand; pvt is still colos timing Nothing new in these matchups! Zerg and protoss evolved to exploit buffs of their races and nerfs of terran, they did little when their races were disadvantaged. Zergs and protosses whine first, and adapt later. Terran has had to change their play style under the constant nerfs of blizzard. Terrans have had to adapt first, and only now is terran bitching about the shitty job of blizzard. Yeah bro, I mean, TvP has evolved massively, and is not at all completely identical to how people played in the Beta, People used to mech and use bio tank vs protoss. Then tanks were nerfed. Then they tried using thor strategies. Then thors were nerfed. Even then there were a few holdouts trying mech vs protoss, but then hellions were nerfed, cementing the fact that blizzard doesn't want anything other than mawines mawauders and medivacs in tvp. So ironically, if Blizzard hadn't nerfed terrans over, and over and over again, mech TvP might still be viable and there would be no need from Blizzard to invent the stupid warhound to fix TvP mech. They created the problem they are now trying to fix. Exactly. Take Energy off Thors and Battlecruisers and all will be right with the mech world in TvP. Not exactly, mech still won't have enough space control with the tank nerf that reduced their damage to 35 vs light. And hellions still don't provide enough of a buffer, maybe they could with the old BFH and the tank damage.
Seriously, let the tank dmg out of the discussion! The Tank dmg is fine as it is! 50 dmg vs everything would make the tank to an counter-all-ground-unit that nobody wants or should want!
Mech is a little bit viable in TvP, but nothing more than a cheese that can catch protoss by surprise. People should focus on easy to solve problems until HotS is out. And bringing back the queen range to its normal state would solve a lot in TvZ and is an easy to make change!
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I can give you TvZ from the GSL up and downs, the GSL qualifiers, and the GSTL if that helps?
There have been 112 games total played, Zerg have won 83 of them while Terran have won 29, giving Zergs about a 74% win rate.
lol, fuck this game. No reason to wait it out, just check out the data overall and analyze the win/loss from TIMINGS. This will help solve future hot-fix balance patches that have fucking no thought put into them at all.
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On June 19 2012 04:33 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 04:23 Toadvine wrote:On June 19 2012 04:05 Blyadischa wrote:On June 19 2012 03:55 Veriol wrote:On June 19 2012 03:08 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 19 2012 02:58 Veriol wrote:
I love how after month of non-winning terrans "'quit'' the game :D not like Z/P was loosing for the whole existance of sc2.. Just get grip on urselves; wait and see how it evolve or even i dont know .. try to think of something (qxc bunker). Why should Terran evolve ? That's what they always did during the life of the game. On other hand, Protoss and Zerg whined over and over to mother Blizzard asking for buffs instead of trying new composition. Also I can't fully blame Blizzard. They had to choose between losing 2 thirds of their player pool ( Z and P ) or just 1 third. They made the obvious decision, since they are a business. Enjoy your ladder with only two races. GLHF. LOL... yeah because zvp is still 2base roach hydra; zvt is still 2base muta .. pvz is still 3gate expand; pvt is still colos timing Nothing new in these matchups! Zerg and protoss evolved to exploit buffs of their races and nerfs of terran, they did little when their races were disadvantaged. Zergs and protosses whine first, and adapt later. Terran has had to change their play style under the constant nerfs of blizzard. Terrans have had to adapt first, and only now is terran bitching about the shitty job of blizzard. Yeah bro, I mean, TvP has evolved massively, and is not at all completely identical to how people played in the Beta, People used to mech and use bio tank vs protoss. Then tanks were nerfed. Then they tried using thor strategies. Then thors were nerfed. Even then there were a few holdouts trying mech vs protoss, but then hellions were nerfed, cementing the fact that blizzard doesn't want anything other than mawines mawauders and medivacs in tvp.
Yeah, the guy who commented before you was simplifying the idea. Of course the game has changed a lot since beta
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On June 19 2012 04:30 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 04:12 mazqo wrote:
One thing i have noticed when watching dreamhack TvZ's is that in first 200/200 clash zerg always has 5000/2000 banked while terran has no money. 200 vs 200 goes pretty much even in units lost, but then zerg will just kill terran with reinforcements/remax. This is indeed the problem atm. Zerg armies are too strong, especially 2 compositions: - infestor ultra ling baneling - infestor broodlord corruptor
I love when watching replays of pros just how cost efficiently Zerg trades v. Terran with similar armies (if 200/200 or less). Zerg, surprisngly, trades BETTER than Terran. How does the Swarm with its many units trade more cost efficiently than the "defensive" Terran race? That right there is the problem. Zerg then not only makes trades better, but then also reinforces with its 5000/2000 bank and dominates the Terran.
Essentially Zerg gets the best of both worlds in that respect
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4713 Posts
On June 19 2012 05:28 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 05:24 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 05:08 Figgy wrote:On June 19 2012 04:37 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 04:33 Horseballs wrote:On June 19 2012 04:23 Toadvine wrote:On June 19 2012 04:05 Blyadischa wrote:On June 19 2012 03:55 Veriol wrote:On June 19 2012 03:08 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 19 2012 02:58 Veriol wrote:
I love how after month of non-winning terrans "'quit'' the game :D not like Z/P was loosing for the whole existance of sc2.. Just get grip on urselves; wait and see how it evolve or even i dont know .. try to think of something (qxc bunker). Why should Terran evolve ? That's what they always did during the life of the game. On other hand, Protoss and Zerg whined over and over to mother Blizzard asking for buffs instead of trying new composition. Also I can't fully blame Blizzard. They had to choose between losing 2 thirds of their player pool ( Z and P ) or just 1 third. They made the obvious decision, since they are a business. Enjoy your ladder with only two races. GLHF. LOL... yeah because zvp is still 2base roach hydra; zvt is still 2base muta .. pvz is still 3gate expand; pvt is still colos timing Nothing new in these matchups! Zerg and protoss evolved to exploit buffs of their races and nerfs of terran, they did little when their races were disadvantaged. Zergs and protosses whine first, and adapt later. Terran has had to change their play style under the constant nerfs of blizzard. Terrans have had to adapt first, and only now is terran bitching about the shitty job of blizzard. Yeah bro, I mean, TvP has evolved massively, and is not at all completely identical to how people played in the Beta, People used to mech and use bio tank vs protoss. Then tanks were nerfed. Then they tried using thor strategies. Then thors were nerfed. Even then there were a few holdouts trying mech vs protoss, but then hellions were nerfed, cementing the fact that blizzard doesn't want anything other than mawines mawauders and medivacs in tvp. So ironically, if Blizzard hadn't nerfed terrans over, and over and over again, mech TvP might still be viable and there would be no need from Blizzard to invent the stupid warhound to fix TvP mech. They created the problem they are now trying to fix. Exactly. Take Energy off Thors and Battlecruisers and all will be right with the mech world in TvP. Not exactly, mech still won't have enough space control with the tank nerf that reduced their damage to 35 vs light. And hellions still don't provide enough of a buffer, maybe they could with the old BFH and the tank damage. Seriously, let the tank dmg out of the discussion! The Tank dmg is fine as it is! 50 dmg vs everything would make the tank to an counter-all-ground-unit that nobody wants or should want! Mech is a little bit viable in TvP, but nothing more than a cheese that can catch protoss by surprise. People should focus on easy to solve problems until HotS is out. And bringing back the queen range to its normal state would solve a lot in TvZ and is an easy to make change!
No, I want to talk about the siege tank because its necessary. The siege tank is a fucking space control unit, that means that you set it up and you announce to the other player "this zone is off limits, do something else rather then bash your head into it like a retard". That is the interesting aspect of siege tanks, there are trade offs with them. They aren't mobile because of their setup time, but they control space really well and it forces the enemy to be clever and engage in different ways.
Zergs deal with tank lines by doing mass flanks, sniping them with mutas that dart in and out of fights, using infested terran eggs to force friendly fire, or by slow pushing with brood lords, very rarely do zergs just go for a head on engagement, even when they have Ultralisks and infestors, and that is what makes siege tanks interesting.
In TvT terrans force each other apart trough carefully planed maneuvers, posturing, flanking, pressuring other areas to force the tanks to relocate, using nukes to tactically force the tanks to unsiege, using banshees to snipe them when possible, and terrans carefully and skilfully look to control the chokes and high grounds and protect them, with ravens if possible.
That kind of strategic play is missing in TvP. Seriously protosses are spoiled brats when they qq about the old tank damage, they have some of the best units to counter siege tanks, charge zealots, immortals and as of yet even more unexplored options in air protoss with the void ray, phoenix and carrier. But of course air protoss never really got of the ground (no pun intended), because mech TvP never really got rolling.
And if Blizzard keeps insisting on adding units to counter siege tanks, like the viper with abduct, the Tempest with that retarded range, then it seems only fair that tanks be reverted back to their original damage. Besides, siege tanks weren't nerfed specifically because of their damage, they where nerfed because terrans could hit some timings where they could kill of most races due to the really stupid maps from back then (hello Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine and Lost Temple). Those timings are now impossible to hit due to the shear size of maps, their architecture and also due to how the other races have learned to adapt.
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1) queens too strong, provide excellent combat defense vs air and ground (virtually every terran unit besides marauder and thats about it for early game). Creep + larvae injects. For 150 minerals you are getting an excellent combat/macromechanic/map control unit. 150 minerals.
2) infestors too strong, it is the counter every thing unit. Large units, small units, flying units, crawling units, it does not matter. The infestor is the brainless solution for the zerg arsenal used in every situation and it is ruining the game. Only counter measure terran had were ghosts and ravens. Ghosts got nerfed in an extreme way (blizz doesnt really know what they are doing), rather than decreasing dmg they just crushed snipe. Ravens don't have enough range or speed to compete with fungal with hsm. If zerg plays properly it is theoretically impossible for ravens to beat infestors. So that means the only solution in late game fights for terran is having the absolute best positioning. Meaning attacking into a zerg will autolose, have to have the best concave and spread to compete. Ofcourse this is almost impossible to expect from lower level players, and even in high level zerg will be banking 5k/5k when t turtles. So problems both ways.
I understand that balance is very fragile and making any changes can shift in the other direction, but these are the fundamental zerg problems imo.
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On June 19 2012 05:28 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 05:24 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 05:08 Figgy wrote:On June 19 2012 04:37 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 04:33 Horseballs wrote:On June 19 2012 04:23 Toadvine wrote:On June 19 2012 04:05 Blyadischa wrote:On June 19 2012 03:55 Veriol wrote:On June 19 2012 03:08 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 19 2012 02:58 Veriol wrote:
I love how after month of non-winning terrans "'quit'' the game :D not like Z/P was loosing for the whole existance of sc2.. Just get grip on urselves; wait and see how it evolve or even i dont know .. try to think of something (qxc bunker). Why should Terran evolve ? That's what they always did during the life of the game. On other hand, Protoss and Zerg whined over and over to mother Blizzard asking for buffs instead of trying new composition. Also I can't fully blame Blizzard. They had to choose between losing 2 thirds of their player pool ( Z and P ) or just 1 third. They made the obvious decision, since they are a business. Enjoy your ladder with only two races. GLHF. LOL... yeah because zvp is still 2base roach hydra; zvt is still 2base muta .. pvz is still 3gate expand; pvt is still colos timing Nothing new in these matchups! Zerg and protoss evolved to exploit buffs of their races and nerfs of terran, they did little when their races were disadvantaged. Zergs and protosses whine first, and adapt later. Terran has had to change their play style under the constant nerfs of blizzard. Terrans have had to adapt first, and only now is terran bitching about the shitty job of blizzard. Yeah bro, I mean, TvP has evolved massively, and is not at all completely identical to how people played in the Beta, People used to mech and use bio tank vs protoss. Then tanks were nerfed. Then they tried using thor strategies. Then thors were nerfed. Even then there were a few holdouts trying mech vs protoss, but then hellions were nerfed, cementing the fact that blizzard doesn't want anything other than mawines mawauders and medivacs in tvp. So ironically, if Blizzard hadn't nerfed terrans over, and over and over again, mech TvP might still be viable and there would be no need from Blizzard to invent the stupid warhound to fix TvP mech. They created the problem they are now trying to fix. Exactly. Take Energy off Thors and Battlecruisers and all will be right with the mech world in TvP. Not exactly, mech still won't have enough space control with the tank nerf that reduced their damage to 35 vs light. And hellions still don't provide enough of a buffer, maybe they could with the old BFH and the tank damage. Seriously, let the tank dmg out of the discussion! The Tank dmg is fine as it is! 50 dmg vs everything would make the tank to an counter-all-ground-unit that nobody wants or should want! Mech is a little bit viable in TvP, but nothing more than a cheese that can catch protoss by surprise. People should focus on easy to solve problems until HotS is out. And bringing back the queen range to its normal state would solve a lot in TvZ and is an easy to make change!
Oh, sort of like the Colossi, except not nearly as mobile. I hear you buddy!
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On June 19 2012 04:02 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 03:31 Plansix wrote:On June 19 2012 02:48 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 02:39 zmansman17 wrote:On June 19 2012 01:26 Jaegeru wrote:On June 19 2012 01:09 CaptainCrush wrote:On June 19 2012 01:01 monkybone wrote:
Yeah, the patch was severe. But stop playing? Are you crazy? I stopped playing too, terran is really just not a fun race anymore... Their idea of balance is getting a little absurd. Agreed, it's impossible to play vs a good zerg unless you can play like MKP. Off-raced as Zerg most of yesterday and that was honestly the most fun I've had playing starcraft in bloody ages. Yeah over the last 2 seasons I have done some experimenting since I have heard that Protoss and Zerg are harder to play than Terran and Terran players are "whining" and should "just learn to adapt". As a little background information, I've been a top 8 master Terran for 5 seasons, peaking at Rank 1 master Terran last season. Anyway, so 2 seasons ago, I took up Protoss and spent some time in 1v1 obs game learning to play it. Got another account and quickly hit the same rank and point value as my Terran and then actually eclipsed that point value. This really upset me because I Didn't even think I was good at Protoss yet I was able to attain more points than I had whilst dedicating myself to Terran. I also tried Zerg and read up on injecting methods, timing, etc. and also was easily able to hit top 8 master. I think I could actually go further with Zerg than either Terran or Protoss, but I don't like the idea of jumping on the bandwagon or taking the easy way out. Hence why I have stayed with Terran through everything. In any case, I concluded that TvZ is insanely more difficult for the Terran player and even TvP, I find it much easier to play Protoss. Both of the latter races permit you to sit back, defend, tech up and create an informed and extremely strong unit comp. Terran relies on hit-and-run tactics, which, if they do little to no damage, you are actually behind. And at this point in the game, why should those drops ever do damage if you are a good player? You should know when what times they should come, what units to have in position, where to have Overlords or Observers positioned, where to drop cannons, or a group of ling/bane present. I am really looking forward to HotS so that Terran gets less micro intensive units so we can dedicate more time to sitting back like the other races. And indeed, David Kim mentioned this very point in a recent interview that Terran should be able to do this. I agree with a lot of what you said except the last part. It shouldn't be terrans that get less micro-intensive units, its zerg and protoss that need to be re-worked so their units scale better with micro, and their new units should require much more micro. If not then this game becomes a boring attack-move feast, micro and micro scaling units are the best thing in SC2, all compositions and all match-ups that require micro are the best. TvP, when it actually gets to the level of MKP vs PartinG, those beautiful back and forth fights, the stutter step, the splits the storm dodging, the flanks. TvZ in its heyday of ling, bing & muta, stutter step, marine splits, bane splits, focus fire, magic box. No player should have to play substantially better to beat another player, but making more attack-move friendly units to balance this out is NOT the right way to do it. Better is a subjective and abused term on TL. Because APM is the only stat we can track, we become hyper focused on it. Decision making isn't even factored in. No one credits the number of games a protoss or zerg had to play to learn all the in's and outs of strong macro openings. And there is no blaming anyone when this happens, you just get to go back to your replay and see what you missed. The number of months that I put up with losing over and over learning how to 1 gate expand against all forms of agressive terran openings are not counted. The ability to work with mininal scouting information, know when to and not to pull probes against an early push, to know when drops are comming and where from and all the other things that are needed to get to the late game. There are a lot of players on TL who want to deminish to make themselves feel better about not advancing at the pace they want. HotS should open the game up a bit and allow for more play styles. I am looking forward to cutting my teeth on it and seeing how they work into the match ups. I'm not arguing against that, at the moment I'm trying to improve too, so I can feel the pain of exploring your build, learning it inside and out, and how to modify it to work against anything, how to scout and counter certain strategies from small tells and minimal scouting. But to a certain extent every race does that, however not all races have to do what terrans do. Terrans are the only race with only ranged units, they deal lots of damage but are very squishy, thus the majority of them benefit from micro and superb multi-tasking. While all races benefit form multi-tasking, they don't to the level terrans have to. A multi-pronged harass, a double drop and direct attack on a certain location, are very hard to pull of for a terran because all the attacks need to be microed to be successful, all the while they need to also macro back at home. Again, I am not saying the other races are a-move and don't benefit from micro at all, or that they aren't required to micro to win, because they do, but compared to the terrans, its vastly less. And again this comes down to the basic design of terran units, ranged, low hp, high damage, high risk and high reward. HoTS may open the game up a bit, but the way it does that really doesn't appeal to me, I really would prefer if every race was made more micro and multi-tasking intensive rather then terrans just given the easy way out.
Although I agree with you in some fashions, I don't believe that protoss or zerg require less multi-tasking that protoss. PvZ require and PvP requires that a protoss learns blink micro, which is as AMP and attenion intensive as it gets. Zerg has to inject all the time. All the time. It is never ending and keeping up your injections while being pressured can decide if you win or loss and engagement. Doing is quickly and on time is the sign of a good zerg and it is easy to forget during combat.
All of these things are basics parts of SC2, but doing them under pressure is a skill. However, all of this is discounted by many of the people who claim that terran is the most difficult race. For some reason, it is assumed that this stuff happens automatically or simply just assume that all macro and scouting take the same amount of effort for each race. The argument mostly focuses around how much AMP is needed and that every engagment is just an A move and the game is over. There is little information to back this up, or specific replays of the terran player losing. Just the argument of "I lost like 7 games in a row and I am quitting terran because the game is BS."
The only place you do not see this argument made is the SC2 Strategy section. There is a simple reason for this. It is because that section of the forum requires that replays be posted and there is a risk that the someone may find out exactly why they lost.
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On June 19 2012 06:23 biology]major wrote:
Ravens don't have enough range or speed to compete with fungal with hsm. If zerg plays properly it is theoretically impossible for ravens to beat infestors.
I agree with the other stuff you said, but this isn't true. Mass Ravens have a specific anti-infestor behavior that is very effective. You scan ahead of your raven/banshee flock, and when infestors are about 20 range away, you select all your ravens, hold T, and place auto-turrets in a scattershot pattern towards the infestors. then if necessary you drop 2-3 missiles on infestors and clumps of infested terrans.
When he can't fungal you all at once, fungals are useless and he won't be able to stop your ravens from getting down a lot of autoturrets (which cannot be fungaled and beat IT's for energy due to the hatch time+greater range)
Your ravens also micro themselves away from attacking units.
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On June 19 2012 09:38 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 06:23 biology]major wrote:
Ravens don't have enough range or speed to compete with fungal with hsm. If zerg plays properly it is theoretically impossible for ravens to beat infestors. I agree with the other stuff you said, but this isn't true. Mass Ravens have a specific anti-infestor behavior that is very effective. You scan ahead of your raven/banshee flock, and when infestors are about 20 range away, you select all your ravens, hold T, and place auto-turrets in a scattershot pattern towards the infestors. then if necessary you drop 2-3 missiles on infestors and clumps of infested terrans. When he can't fungal you all at once, fungals are useless and he won't be able to stop your ravens from getting down a lot of autoturrets (which cannot be fungaled and beat IT's for energy due to the hatch time+greater range) Your ravens also micro themselves away from attacking units.
Except mass infestor is 1 trillion times easier to mass than it is to mass ravens. 1 trillion
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On June 19 2012 09:38 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 06:23 biology]major wrote:
Ravens don't have enough range or speed to compete with fungal with hsm. If zerg plays properly it is theoretically impossible for ravens to beat infestors. I agree with the other stuff you said, but this isn't true. Mass Ravens have a specific anti-infestor behavior that is very effective. You scan ahead of your raven/banshee flock, and when infestors are about 20 range away, you select all your ravens, hold T, and place auto-turrets in a scattershot pattern towards the infestors. then if necessary you drop 2-3 missiles on infestors and clumps of infested terrans. When he can't fungal you all at once, fungals are useless and he won't be able to stop your ravens from getting down a lot of autoturrets (which cannot be fungaled and beat IT's for energy due to the hatch time+greater range) Your ravens also micro themselves away from attacking units.
LOL not sure if serious
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On June 19 2012 09:38 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 06:23 biology]major wrote:
Ravens don't have enough range or speed to compete with fungal with hsm. If zerg plays properly it is theoretically impossible for ravens to beat infestors. I agree with the other stuff you said, but this isn't true. Mass Ravens have a specific anti-infestor behavior that is very effective. You scan ahead of your raven/banshee flock, and when infestors are about 20 range away, you select all your ravens, hold T, and place auto-turrets in a scattershot pattern towards the infestors. then if necessary you drop 2-3 missiles on infestors and clumps of infested terrans. When he can't fungal you all at once, fungals are useless and he won't be able to stop your ravens from getting down a lot of autoturrets (which cannot be fungaled and beat IT's for energy due to the hatch time+greater range) Your ravens also micro themselves away from attacking units.
A++ satire, would read again. Thank you for contributing this.
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On June 19 2012 09:38 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 06:23 biology]major wrote:
Ravens don't have enough range or speed to compete with fungal with hsm. If zerg plays properly it is theoretically impossible for ravens to beat infestors. I agree with the other stuff you said, but this isn't true. Mass Ravens have a specific anti-infestor behavior that is very effective. You scan ahead of your raven/banshee flock, and when infestors are about 20 range away, you select all your ravens, hold T, and place auto-turrets in a scattershot pattern towards the infestors. then if necessary you drop 2-3 missiles on infestors and clumps of infested terrans. When he can't fungal you all at once, fungals are useless and he won't be able to stop your ravens from getting down a lot of autoturrets (which cannot be fungaled and beat IT's for energy due to the hatch time+greater range) Your ravens also micro themselves away from attacking units.
After that you close the unit test map feel happy about the Raven and post funny stuff like this on forums. In actual game situations Raven will get fungaled unless the Zerg messes up and Autoturrets suck like hell .
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May I ask? Why Siegemode has to be upgraded? I mean, siegetank without is useless. It would be same that hardened shield needed to be upgraded for immortal or creeptumor for queen.
But the main problem with terran is, they have to choose do they go for mech or bio, because of the upgrades. They cant do both, because its just too expensive to make many factories, armories, engineering bays and ugprades.
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On June 19 2012 10:20 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 10:14 Fuzer wrote:
May I ask? Why Siegemode has to be upgraded? I mean, siegetank without is useless. Because siege tank rushes in TvT would be way too good...
And a single siege tank (or two) would be way too strong defensively. It would be extremely hard to rush Terran if siege mode came standard. That little extra investment means they need to commit to that research instead of other upgrades or uses for their gas during that time.
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On June 19 2012 10:20 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 10:14 Fuzer wrote:
May I ask? Why Siegemode has to be upgraded? I mean, siegetank without is useless. Because siege tank rushes in TvT would be way too good...
As a highend grandmaster T player, i would say that tank rushes wouldbe easier to defend if it wouldnt need to be upgraded? =D
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EPT
