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On June 19 2012 11:38 zmansman17 wrote:
This is just wrong. Ran k1 master terran here and Ravens are awful against infestors because just 1 fungal has the potential to chain fungal the ravens and it's gg. Note that ravens cannot cast whilst being fungaled and fungal outranges HSM. Also, as Terran players we need to use like 6 hotkeys for army, so if you by accident (And only for a moment) clump your ravens and you get fungaled once it's gg. You cannot replace that gas. And even if your ravens go unmolested by the other player, it's not sufficient to say you will even glean an advantage, let alone win the game. If anything, it makes the end game OK, but once again, good luck holding 200 apm and not making any errors.
It takes 5 Fungals to kill a Raven, that's 375 energy. Alternatively if you have ground control you can use 2 Fungals and 2 Infested Terrans to kill one as well, which works out at 200 energy but more micro intensive and may not work.
It takes 1 Seeker Missile to kill an Infestor and the Infestor and any of his buddies will die if the thing is launched at them off creep, unless they burrow or are able to run away on a wide expanse of creep, this costs 125 energy.
Seeker missiles are not as bad as people say, but if dealing with Infestors I don't think Ravens are always the best choice, far better to use Ghosts.
The unfortunate fact is that the Raven requires a lot of investment in upgrades to get it to the stage where you can reliably use Seeker Missiles and the Raven is not crucial to any kind of Terran play style right now, so it feels even more of an issue to produce it. Why deviate from established and working builds to make something that takes time and is a risk? Most wouldn't.
For the Zerg the Infestor is the centrepiece of the army, it's the most important unit they have and in most matches they wont be able to win without using them. They literally have to build them in every game and so you see them far more often and it's become far less of an issue to fit them into any kind of army composition (because they have to).
I think I'd keep the cost of the Raven and upgrades the same, but would certainly change the length of time it takes to research them all. Making it more viable to invest time and money in as you're actually far more likely to see it arrive on the battlefield and contribute than in the current game.
Small changes like this are what Terran need to improve their late game variety overall, because a lot of their units are overlooked, sometimes for good reasons and sometimes for silly reasons.
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On June 19 2012 19:37 avc wrote:
It takes 5 Fungals to kill a Raven, that's 375 energy. Alternatively if you have ground control you can use 2 Fungals and 2 Infested Terrans to kill one as well, which works out at 200 energy but more micro intensive and may not work.
It takes 2 missiles to kill a broodlord, and thats 250 energy + the ravens will die (= 200/400).
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On June 19 2012 19:42 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 19:37 avc wrote:
It takes 5 Fungals to kill a Raven, that's 375 energy. Alternatively if you have ground control you can use 2 Fungals and 2 Infested Terrans to kill one as well, which works out at 200 energy but more micro intensive and may not work.
It takes 2 missiles to kill a broodlord, and thats 250 energy + the ravens will die (= 200/400).
Thats the problem imo. The raven always dies... and they are so expensive... A speed and or range buff would be really good .
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still waiting for somekind of statement from blizzard, its just has to come soon....
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On June 19 2012 20:11 Satiinifi wrote:
still waiting for somekind of statement from blizzard, its just has to come soon....
here I'll give you a hint
"From our data collected, we have determined that TvZ is fine."
Yup, I think that's about what it's gonna be like.
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On June 19 2012 20:11 Satiinifi wrote:
still waiting for somekind of statement from blizzard, its just has to come soon....
All their stats say that tvz is 50%! (see browder interview)
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France9034 Posts
I love one thing and only one in this kind of discussion :
"TvX favors Terran" => Terran OP, nerf Terran
"TvX favors X" => Lol Terrans, why don't you bring new strategies and adapt ?
Don't get me wrong, i'm just talking about the discussion, not about the problem itsefl. I tend to think that the match-up is now quite good in the early-midgame - maybe the queen range is a bit too much, why not 4 - just favors a bit Zerg in the late game now that the only option to deal with it (which was T2 btw...) has been nerfed, talking about Ghost, and again, I'm not discussing about whether this nerf was good or not.
I'd like to take some time to see how Terrans react, since they didn't yet.
Terrans have some smart mastermind (MMA/MVP/MKP) that i trust to find (if there is) a solution so that the match-up does not seem broken.
Again, i'd like to see people saying "Zerg/Protoss need to adapt to these change" instead of "OMG PLZ NERF". There are a few, but compared to the huge load of hatred toward terrans, it doesn't seem significant.
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On June 19 2012 20:27 Ragnarork wrote:
I love one thing and only one in this kind of discussion :
"TvX favors Terran" => Terran OP, nerf Terran
"TvX favors X" => Lol Terrans, why don't you bring new strategies and adapt ?
Don't get me wrong, i'm just talking about the discussion, not about the problem itsefl. I tend to think that the match-up is now quite good in the early-midgame - maybe the queen range is a bit too much, why not 4 - just favors a bit Zerg in the late game now that the only option to deal with it (which was T2 btw...) has been nerfed, talking about Ghost, and again, I'm not discussing about whether this nerf was good or not.
I'd like to take some time to see how Terrans react, since they didn't yet.
Terrans have some smart mastermind (MMA/MVP/MKP) that i trust to find (if there is) a solution so that the match-up does not seem broken.
Again, i'd like to see people saying "Zerg/Protoss need to adapt to these change" instead of "OMG PLZ NERF". There are a few, but compared to the huge load of hatred toward terrans, it doesn't seem significant.
I think most people remember the 2010 state of the game and are still bitter about it.
ie:
On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed.
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On June 07 2012 18:04 MrCash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 18:02 Satiinifi wrote:On June 07 2012 18:00 SolidMoose wrote:On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQdiscuss! i like tvz in korea, the queen buff was necessary in my opinion The way GSTL is going it's gonna be even worse for June. I hope this is a wake up call to blizzard for implementing unnecessary buffs. Dont worry, they will nerf terran in next patch too anyway. It's funny because it's true.
Actually its a bit unfunny too because I seriously wouldn't be surprised if this happened.
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Guys, it's just like in Animal Farm. All matchups are balanced, some matchups are just more balanced than others 
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On June 19 2012 05:59 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 05:28 TeeTS wrote:On June 19 2012 05:24 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 05:08 Figgy wrote:On June 19 2012 04:37 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 04:33 Horseballs wrote:On June 19 2012 04:23 Toadvine wrote:On June 19 2012 04:05 Blyadischa wrote:On June 19 2012 03:55 Veriol wrote:On June 19 2012 03:08 BlitzerSC wrote:
[quote]
Why should Terran evolve ? That's what they always did during the life of the game. On other hand, Protoss and Zerg whined over and over to mother Blizzard asking for buffs instead of trying new composition.
Also I can't fully blame Blizzard. They had to choose between losing 2 thirds of their player pool ( Z and P ) or just 1 third. They made the obvious decision, since they are a business.
Enjoy your ladder with only two races.
GLHF. LOL... yeah because zvp is still 2base roach hydra; zvt is still 2base muta .. pvz is still 3gate expand; pvt is still colos timing Nothing new in these matchups! Zerg and protoss evolved to exploit buffs of their races and nerfs of terran, they did little when their races were disadvantaged. Zergs and protosses whine first, and adapt later. Terran has had to change their play style under the constant nerfs of blizzard. Terrans have had to adapt first, and only now is terran bitching about the shitty job of blizzard. Yeah bro, I mean, TvP has evolved massively, and is not at all completely identical to how people played in the Beta, People used to mech and use bio tank vs protoss. Then tanks were nerfed. Then they tried using thor strategies. Then thors were nerfed. Even then there were a few holdouts trying mech vs protoss, but then hellions were nerfed, cementing the fact that blizzard doesn't want anything other than mawines mawauders and medivacs in tvp. So ironically, if Blizzard hadn't nerfed terrans over, and over and over again, mech TvP might still be viable and there would be no need from Blizzard to invent the stupid warhound to fix TvP mech. They created the problem they are now trying to fix. Exactly. Take Energy off Thors and Battlecruisers and all will be right with the mech world in TvP. Not exactly, mech still won't have enough space control with the tank nerf that reduced their damage to 35 vs light. And hellions still don't provide enough of a buffer, maybe they could with the old BFH and the tank damage. Seriously, let the tank dmg out of the discussion! The Tank dmg is fine as it is! 50 dmg vs everything would make the tank to an counter-all-ground-unit that nobody wants or should want! Mech is a little bit viable in TvP, but nothing more than a cheese that can catch protoss by surprise. People should focus on easy to solve problems until HotS is out. And bringing back the queen range to its normal state would solve a lot in TvZ and is an easy to make change! No, I want to talk about the siege tank because its necessary. The siege tank is a fucking space control unit, that means that you set it up and you announce to the other player "this zone is off limits, do something else rather then bash your head into it like a retard". That is the interesting aspect of siege tanks, there are trade offs with them. They aren't mobile because of their setup time, but they control space really well and it forces the enemy to be clever and engage in different ways. Zergs deal with tank lines by doing mass flanks, sniping them with mutas that dart in and out of fights, using infested terran eggs to force friendly fire, or by slow pushing with brood lords, very rarely do zergs just go for a head on engagement, even when they have Ultralisks and infestors, and that is what makes siege tanks interesting. In TvT terrans force each other apart trough carefully planed maneuvers, posturing, flanking, pressuring other areas to force the tanks to relocate, using nukes to tactically force the tanks to unsiege, using banshees to snipe them when possible, and terrans carefully and skilfully look to control the chokes and high grounds and protect them, with ravens if possible. That kind of strategic play is missing in TvP. Seriously protosses are spoiled brats when they qq about the old tank damage, they have some of the best units to counter siege tanks, charge zealots, immortals and as of yet even more unexplored options in air protoss with the void ray, phoenix and carrier. But of course air protoss never really got of the ground (no pun intended), because mech TvP never really got rolling. And if Blizzard keeps insisting on adding units to counter siege tanks, like the viper with abduct, the Tempest with that retarded range, then it seems only fair that tanks be reverted back to their original damage. Besides, siege tanks weren't nerfed specifically because of their damage, they where nerfed because terrans could hit some timings where they could kill of most races due to the really stupid maps from back then (hello Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine and Lost Temple). Those timings are now impossible to hit due to the shear size of maps, their architecture and also due to how the other races have learned to adapt.
underrated post
I think it really sucks how Terran's upgrades to stay alive in the early/mid game doesn't really correspond to the best late game army while Protoss has Collossi that has Ground Attack upgrades, and Archons that benefit too, and Zerg have Ultras that benefit from Melee upgrades.
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On June 19 2012 23:47 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 05:59 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 05:28 TeeTS wrote:On June 19 2012 05:24 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 05:08 Figgy wrote:On June 19 2012 04:37 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 04:33 Horseballs wrote:On June 19 2012 04:23 Toadvine wrote:On June 19 2012 04:05 Blyadischa wrote:On June 19 2012 03:55 Veriol wrote:
[quote]
LOL... yeah because zvp is still 2base roach hydra; zvt is still 2base muta .. pvz is still 3gate expand; pvt is still colos timing
Nothing new in these matchups! Zerg and protoss evolved to exploit buffs of their races and nerfs of terran, they did little when their races were disadvantaged. Zergs and protosses whine first, and adapt later. Terran has had to change their play style under the constant nerfs of blizzard. Terrans have had to adapt first, and only now is terran bitching about the shitty job of blizzard. Yeah bro, I mean, TvP has evolved massively, and is not at all completely identical to how people played in the Beta, People used to mech and use bio tank vs protoss. Then tanks were nerfed. Then they tried using thor strategies. Then thors were nerfed. Even then there were a few holdouts trying mech vs protoss, but then hellions were nerfed, cementing the fact that blizzard doesn't want anything other than mawines mawauders and medivacs in tvp. So ironically, if Blizzard hadn't nerfed terrans over, and over and over again, mech TvP might still be viable and there would be no need from Blizzard to invent the stupid warhound to fix TvP mech. They created the problem they are now trying to fix. Exactly. Take Energy off Thors and Battlecruisers and all will be right with the mech world in TvP. Not exactly, mech still won't have enough space control with the tank nerf that reduced their damage to 35 vs light. And hellions still don't provide enough of a buffer, maybe they could with the old BFH and the tank damage. Seriously, let the tank dmg out of the discussion! The Tank dmg is fine as it is! 50 dmg vs everything would make the tank to an counter-all-ground-unit that nobody wants or should want! Mech is a little bit viable in TvP, but nothing more than a cheese that can catch protoss by surprise. People should focus on easy to solve problems until HotS is out. And bringing back the queen range to its normal state would solve a lot in TvZ and is an easy to make change! No, I want to talk about the siege tank because its necessary. The siege tank is a fucking space control unit, that means that you set it up and you announce to the other player "this zone is off limits, do something else rather then bash your head into it like a retard". That is the interesting aspect of siege tanks, there are trade offs with them. They aren't mobile because of their setup time, but they control space really well and it forces the enemy to be clever and engage in different ways. Zergs deal with tank lines by doing mass flanks, sniping them with mutas that dart in and out of fights, using infested terran eggs to force friendly fire, or by slow pushing with brood lords, very rarely do zergs just go for a head on engagement, even when they have Ultralisks and infestors, and that is what makes siege tanks interesting. In TvT terrans force each other apart trough carefully planed maneuvers, posturing, flanking, pressuring other areas to force the tanks to relocate, using nukes to tactically force the tanks to unsiege, using banshees to snipe them when possible, and terrans carefully and skilfully look to control the chokes and high grounds and protect them, with ravens if possible. That kind of strategic play is missing in TvP. Seriously protosses are spoiled brats when they qq about the old tank damage, they have some of the best units to counter siege tanks, charge zealots, immortals and as of yet even more unexplored options in air protoss with the void ray, phoenix and carrier. But of course air protoss never really got of the ground (no pun intended), because mech TvP never really got rolling. And if Blizzard keeps insisting on adding units to counter siege tanks, like the viper with abduct, the Tempest with that retarded range, then it seems only fair that tanks be reverted back to their original damage. Besides, siege tanks weren't nerfed specifically because of their damage, they where nerfed because terrans could hit some timings where they could kill of most races due to the really stupid maps from back then (hello Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine and Lost Temple). Those timings are now impossible to hit due to the shear size of maps, their architecture and also due to how the other races have learned to adapt. underrated post I think it really sucks how Terran's upgrades to stay alive in the early/mid game doesn't really correspond to the best late game army while Protoss has Collossi that has Ground Attack upgrades, and Archons that benefit too, and Zerg have Ultras that benefit from Melee upgrades.
AS I stated before, the problem with terran is that they have 6 upgrades. If you want to play BIO you upgrade BIO, If you want to play MECH you upgrade MECH. It would be interesting if they would put these together, we would see some very interesting stuff...
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On June 19 2012 23:47 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 05:59 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 05:28 TeeTS wrote:On June 19 2012 05:24 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 05:08 Figgy wrote:On June 19 2012 04:37 Destructicon wrote:On June 19 2012 04:33 Horseballs wrote:On June 19 2012 04:23 Toadvine wrote:On June 19 2012 04:05 Blyadischa wrote:On June 19 2012 03:55 Veriol wrote:
[quote]
LOL... yeah because zvp is still 2base roach hydra; zvt is still 2base muta .. pvz is still 3gate expand; pvt is still colos timing
Nothing new in these matchups! Zerg and protoss evolved to exploit buffs of their races and nerfs of terran, they did little when their races were disadvantaged. Zergs and protosses whine first, and adapt later. Terran has had to change their play style under the constant nerfs of blizzard. Terrans have had to adapt first, and only now is terran bitching about the shitty job of blizzard. Yeah bro, I mean, TvP has evolved massively, and is not at all completely identical to how people played in the Beta, People used to mech and use bio tank vs protoss. Then tanks were nerfed. Then they tried using thor strategies. Then thors were nerfed. Even then there were a few holdouts trying mech vs protoss, but then hellions were nerfed, cementing the fact that blizzard doesn't want anything other than mawines mawauders and medivacs in tvp. So ironically, if Blizzard hadn't nerfed terrans over, and over and over again, mech TvP might still be viable and there would be no need from Blizzard to invent the stupid warhound to fix TvP mech. They created the problem they are now trying to fix. Exactly. Take Energy off Thors and Battlecruisers and all will be right with the mech world in TvP. Not exactly, mech still won't have enough space control with the tank nerf that reduced their damage to 35 vs light. And hellions still don't provide enough of a buffer, maybe they could with the old BFH and the tank damage. Seriously, let the tank dmg out of the discussion! The Tank dmg is fine as it is! 50 dmg vs everything would make the tank to an counter-all-ground-unit that nobody wants or should want! Mech is a little bit viable in TvP, but nothing more than a cheese that can catch protoss by surprise. People should focus on easy to solve problems until HotS is out. And bringing back the queen range to its normal state would solve a lot in TvZ and is an easy to make change! No, I want to talk about the siege tank because its necessary. The siege tank is a fucking space control unit, that means that you set it up and you announce to the other player "this zone is off limits, do something else rather then bash your head into it like a retard". That is the interesting aspect of siege tanks, there are trade offs with them. They aren't mobile because of their setup time, but they control space really well and it forces the enemy to be clever and engage in different ways. Zergs deal with tank lines by doing mass flanks, sniping them with mutas that dart in and out of fights, using infested terran eggs to force friendly fire, or by slow pushing with brood lords, very rarely do zergs just go for a head on engagement, even when they have Ultralisks and infestors, and that is what makes siege tanks interesting. In TvT terrans force each other apart trough carefully planed maneuvers, posturing, flanking, pressuring other areas to force the tanks to relocate, using nukes to tactically force the tanks to unsiege, using banshees to snipe them when possible, and terrans carefully and skilfully look to control the chokes and high grounds and protect them, with ravens if possible. That kind of strategic play is missing in TvP. Seriously protosses are spoiled brats when they qq about the old tank damage, they have some of the best units to counter siege tanks, charge zealots, immortals and as of yet even more unexplored options in air protoss with the void ray, phoenix and carrier. But of course air protoss never really got of the ground (no pun intended), because mech TvP never really got rolling. And if Blizzard keeps insisting on adding units to counter siege tanks, like the viper with abduct, the Tempest with that retarded range, then it seems only fair that tanks be reverted back to their original damage. Besides, siege tanks weren't nerfed specifically because of their damage, they where nerfed because terrans could hit some timings where they could kill of most races due to the really stupid maps from back then (hello Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine and Lost Temple). Those timings are now impossible to hit due to the shear size of maps, their architecture and also due to how the other races have learned to adapt. underrated post I think it really sucks how Terran's upgrades to stay alive in the early/mid game doesn't really correspond to the best late game army while Protoss has Collossi that has Ground Attack upgrades, and Archons that benefit too, and Zerg have Ultras that benefit from Melee upgrades.
Not sure if trolling or just stupid.
User was warned for this post
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On June 19 2012 16:52 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 12:24 zmansman17 wrote:On June 19 2012 11:46 iTzSnypah wrote:
I want Blizzard to buff Ravens. Maybe changing the cost to 150/150? More like 100/150 or 150/100. cost is not the problem fungal >> ravens because of range. hsm travels too slow also.
Cost is a start.
Granted, fungal outranges HSM and Ravens can't cast whilst being fungaled.
However, if only fungal didn't preclude movement entirely, or didn't disallow casting abilities, or lower range, we wouldn't have all these problems with Zerg.
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On June 19 2012 20:33 JyB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 20:27 Ragnarork wrote:
I love one thing and only one in this kind of discussion :
"TvX favors Terran" => Terran OP, nerf Terran
"TvX favors X" => Lol Terrans, why don't you bring new strategies and adapt ?
Don't get me wrong, i'm just talking about the discussion, not about the problem itsefl. I tend to think that the match-up is now quite good in the early-midgame - maybe the queen range is a bit too much, why not 4 - just favors a bit Zerg in the late game now that the only option to deal with it (which was T2 btw...) has been nerfed, talking about Ghost, and again, I'm not discussing about whether this nerf was good or not.
I'd like to take some time to see how Terrans react, since they didn't yet.
Terrans have some smart mastermind (MMA/MVP/MKP) that i trust to find (if there is) a solution so that the match-up does not seem broken.
Again, i'd like to see people saying "Zerg/Protoss need to adapt to these change" instead of "OMG PLZ NERF". There are a few, but compared to the huge load of hatred toward terrans, it doesn't seem significant.
I think most people remember the 2010 state of the game and are still bitter about it. ie: Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed.
The past should not be a factor in the balance discussions of the present. I'm guessing this does play a role because Blizzard is a business and they didn't want to lose consumers of their product. To acquiesce to these consumers who cried of the imbalance, Zerg and Protoss were buffed instead of having to learn to adapt. Now what we have is two races that have not only been buffed to Terran's nerfs, but also they have finally adapted and gained a more full understanding of their races.
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For the past two years+ (and beyond into beta) Terran players have constantly been telling zergs to learn and adapt.
5rax reaper? learn to adapt --> it got nerfed because it was broken
2 rax 11-11? learn to adapt --> it got nerfed along with bunkers because it wasn't fair.
steppes of war, delta quadrant maps -- too terran favored? learn to adapt --> they were removed due to imbalance.
So finally after 2+ years, the game is now beginning to favor zerg in the matchup. HUGE terran whine and uproar only weeks after the patch (1 month?).
Yes TvZ is difficult. No one is saying its not. Guess what? ZvT is also very difficult and has been for a long time. The game in general isn't meant to be easy. I'm at 'high' masters near GM threshold with 250apm and the game is still ridiculously complex and difficult for me. I can only imagine how diamond/plat/silver/gold players are dealing with it.
Hopefully when Terran players learn to use ravens (nydus), the game will balance out! (oh the irony)
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On June 20 2012 02:33 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 16:52 biology]major wrote:On June 19 2012 12:24 zmansman17 wrote:On June 19 2012 11:46 iTzSnypah wrote:
I want Blizzard to buff Ravens. Maybe changing the cost to 150/150? More like 100/150 or 150/100. cost is not the problem fungal >> ravens because of range. hsm travels too slow also. Cost is a start. Granted, fungal outranges HSM and Ravens can't cast whilst being fungaled. However, if only fungal didn't preclude movement entirely, or didn't disallow casting abilities, or lower range, we wouldn't have all these problems with Zerg.
HSM blows too, if only zergs learned to micro and split their units. But they don't have to, macroing is stupidly easy now and 1aing to victory before terran can get mass ravens (takes 4-5 bases, which is like 35 mins into the game at least).
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On June 20 2012 03:47 Kvz wrote:
For the past two years+ (and beyond into beta) Terran players have constantly been telling zergs to learn and adapt.
5rax reaper? learn to adapt --> it got nerfed because it was broken
2 rax 11-11? learn to adapt --> it got nerfed along with bunkers because it wasn't fair.
steppes of war, delta quadrant maps -- too terran favored? learn to adapt --> they were removed due to imbalance.
So finally after 2+ years, the game is now beginning to favor zerg in the matchup. HUGE terran whine and uproar only weeks after the patch (1 month?).
Yes TvZ is difficult. No one is saying its not. Guess what? ZvT is also very difficult and has been for a long time. The game in general isn't meant to be easy. I'm at 'high' masters near GM threshold with 250apm and the game is still ridiculously complex and difficult for me. I can only imagine how diamond/plat/silver/gold players are dealing with it.
Hopefully when Terran players learn to use ravens (nydus), the game will balance out! (oh the irony)
Every terran change has been a nerf, or a useless buff. Ravens suck, it's just that zergs don't know how to split.
Terrans have had to adapt with every nerf, while other races simply whine and get a buff. The queen buff was too much of a change. Terran has no other options.
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On June 19 2012 22:54 Jarree wrote:Guys, it's just like in Animal Farm. All matchups are balanced, some matchups are just more balanced than others
Put a smile on my face. Well said.
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EPT
