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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
Also, does anyone who is not a newbie actually know whether it is a good idea for town to freely discuss in the night? Probulous still hasn't got back to me lol. I'll answer any questions if anyone has any. Also, does anyone (players or observers) have any advice for me? I do know I shouldn't lurk that much. It was just unavoidable, though. | ||
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jaj22
United Kingdom1376 Posts
On May 21 2012 06:07 Crossfire99 wrote: Also, does anyone who is not a newbie actually know whether it is a good idea for town to freely discuss in the night? Probulous still hasn't got back to me lol. In a mini you normally take any activity you can get as town. It's not quite as useful at night because of the lack of voting, but until there's too much to read properly, it's all good. There is an argument that townies should avoid giving too much information (especially town reads) so that it's harder for scum to manipulate them, but that's a separate issue and heavily dependent on personal style. Also, does anyone (players or observers) have any advice for me? I do know I shouldn't lurk that much. It was just unavoidable, though. I didn't have anything against you apart from the lurking. You didn't look scummy in tone and you didn't trip up on your agenda. I've seen plenty worse (and successful) scum play in veteran games. Your last in-game post was scummy though. In that situation it looks like a "should I kill you?" post. As town you should be giving your own opinion on Austin vs Bio first. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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Unforgiven_ve
Venezuela1232 Posts
Also, same question cross did. any advice for me? besides the obvious redacting problem. it takes 25 minutes to make a paragraph post for me hehe | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On May 22 2012 00:07 Unforgiven_ve wrote: i have to be honest, our best mafia play was...Anacletus, lol. Also, same question cross did. any advice for me? besides the obvious redacting problem. it takes 25 minutes to make a paragraph post for me hehe Given you were the least suspicious of the mafia, it would have to be said you played quite well! | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
 My sincere apologies to both Crossfire and Radfield. I managed to disappear in the middle of a game which is unnaceptable. You both deserved better from me. I haven't caught up on how the game went but I will take a read and let you know my thoughts. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I also got the same question as all of us, any particular advice on my play? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
For the vets/coaches, would there be any major changes in playstyle between a mini game and a full game and/or a game with PMs? Seems like you're basically doing the same thing, but what would you say the biggest difference is to keep in mind between a mini and a full game? | ||
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BioSC
United States636 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
It will come and it will have my thoughts on each player. Then you can fire questions at me to get further insight. Just bare in mind that people play this game differently so my thoughts are not necessarily the only ones that count  | ||
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jaj22
United Kingdom1376 Posts
On May 24 2012 04:57 austinmcc wrote: For the vets/coaches, would there be any major changes in playstyle between a mini game and a full game and/or a game with PMs? Seems like you're basically doing the same thing, but what would you say the biggest difference is to keep in mind between a mini and a full game? The natural activity level for a game with twice the player count is over four times as high, so posting a lot can become a bad thing, particularly if you're talking about subjects that are unproductive or unimportant. Even if people aren't spamming, you'll have to read a lot more to keep up with the game. It's also less important in large games for everyone to be making their own unique cases. There's still only one lynch, so you don't need more than 3-4 good cases per day. Dissuading other townies from shitting up the thread, getting newbie lurkers engaged and generally keeping town on the right track can be as important as scumhunting. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
Probulous from Godlike Newb to Coach. + Show Spoiler + C... O... P... was sick | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On May 24 2012 15:52 Release wrote: Dam. I just finished reading Newbie Mafia II. Probulous from Godlike Newb to Coach. + Show Spoiler + C... O... P... was sick  I never understood why people have this impression of me. I just read the guides and followed their advice. This is a team game and having people play as a team is crucial to success. That game I fucked up majorly and lead the town into a bad lynch which lost us the game. Not so godly in my opinion. Still working on the write up of this game. Overall impression is that mafia were given lee way because the townies went batshit crazy. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
you missed cephiro, but despite that, still caught Sheth. you played your DT role quite well, not letting anyone know if there was a DT or not, but using the information quite well. The catch on Cats was very good and could have potentially saved the town, but i think Cats was just too inexperienced to capitalize on that. some more but In short, you helped the town survive much longer than it would have without you. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
![[image loading]](http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/ecards/oopssorry/cc_sorrypug.jpg) Ok now that is out the way time to actually add something to this game. My analysis will be long and it will be thorough. There is a TLDR if you want it. General Thoughts My impression of this game is one where town got sidetracked and let mafia play with them. Scum can hide if town is confused and accusing themselves. The best situation for mafia is when they can post stuff without making themselves obvious. To avoid giving scum a free ride I aim to do three things
It seems obvious but in this game hardly anyone managed to do the first, there were far too many people who never attempted the second and obviously you never achieved the third. The reason for this is because everyone looked suspicious come end game. Ultimately mafia is a team game with town not knowing who is on their side. You still have to try and play as a team otherwise mafia can play you off against each other. That is why proving your innocence is so important because it allows others to put some credence into what you are saying. So how do you prove your innocence? Be active, be clear and most importantly above all else be open. I will take Anacletus as an example here but he was by no means the only one who was mystical in their approach to this game. On May 10 2012 23:26 Anacletus wrote: I am only voting because I don't have much to add. I would also like to point out that *if* we hang tofu for his suspicious behavior and he is mafia then we can rule out those voting as being mafia, no? But if he's town, shit. This has been over before by the other town members but it is pretty obvious that all this does is sow confusion. Now that may have been the plan. Some players like to create odd situations and then read reactions, my problem with this style is that is fucks over everyone else. It confuses town, doesn't attempt to scum hunt and sidetracks everyone. Worse it is likely to lead to your misslynch unless you come up with some concrete results. That being said I had Anacletus labelled as town early for exactly this reason. He was all over the place and then he edited a post and kept making zero sense. His posts read as a townie trying to be clever but failing miserably. Remember scum have can have an easy game if they don't get noticed. Particularly in newbie games. It is really hard playing an active scum. I know because I have to play that style given my meta and I suck at it. So, especially day 1, if someone is openly putting themselves out there in strange ways, they get a null read in my book. They do not get labelled scum until they do something that could not come from a dumb townie. I am somewhat lucky in that I had both townies and scum to coach. Compare Anacletus' first substantial post to Crossfire's On May 11 2012 00:23 Crossfire99 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I don't understand why everyone is not liking Firmtofu's first post + Show Spoiler + On May 10 2012 08:36 FirmTofu wrote: Hi again dahdum! I hope you aren't mafia again >< I'm all for lynching a lurker, but we should definitely wait a bit for everyone to have a chance to post. As for his lynching lurkers stance, he was like one of the first posts, so no one really posted and it seems he was stating that we should wait to judge people until they posted. If people still lurked after a while then he seems to support lynching the lurkers. This isn't a terrible stance if I am interpreting him correctly, so I want clarification from him on this, though. As for me, I am only in favor of lynching lurkers as an absolute last resort. I feel we need to do our best scumhunting and if we do a good job, we can lynch a scum. Right now I am suspicious of Anacletus. He comes in and votes for Firmtofu as his first post with no explanation, but then gives this terrible reason for voting in his next post + Show Spoiler + On May 10 2012 23:26 Anacletus wrote: I am only voting because I don't have much to add. I would also like to point out that *if* we hang tofu for his suspicious behavior and he is mafia then we can rule out those voting as being mafia, no? But if he's town, shit. On May 10 2012 23:41 Anacletus wrote: It was for a misspell. I don't understand what your line about FirmTofu is saying, it makes no sense. I doubt that the mafia would try to be hyper-aggressive day 1. I think that the people who aren't voting are suspicious. I think it makes more sense for the mafia to try and be passive in voting yet vocal in chat to try and rule who otherw vote for and keep their hands clean. What say you Anacletus? Note he has an easy time establishing his rational presence by pointing the idiocy of lynching someone based off an obvious joke. Then he has a go at softly attacking the main target at this time (Anacletus). First posts are a bitch for mafia because you are establishing your persona. Crossfire was given way too much easy stuff to work with. Based solely on this post he was immediately put into the "probably town" category of a few people. You cannot let scum do this. So, to prove your innocence you need to be open and clear. Anacletus was the exact opposite and was always a possible lynch target. Crossfire was clear and he was never up for lynch until the last day and even then it was a weak push without real conviction. That is the power that town needs, that is why confusion is a cancer. That is why proving your innocence is the most important thing. The lynches Day 1 Firstly, Brood you should have claimed. I know town wasn't being rational but logically if you claimed cop then your role could be confirmed. If you survived that lynch you could crumb your night check and see what happens day 2. If you get shot overnight, town effectively traded a lynch for a scum hit which is awesome. You would have given Shiapi another day to play. If you didn't get shot you would have more information which you could claim. You were a one shot deal so there was no point in hiding. Remember scum would have to guess whether you would be medic protected. If you believed you would get lynched anyway, why not claim? It was your last shot at surviving and you didn't take it. That being said that lynch was really weird. There was some excellent posting for example FirmTofu made this post (Klicky) which is an example of someone establishing their credibility. I also had Dark as a possible candidate for exactly those reasons. Tofu was top of my town list day 1. The only problem was his speculation about how they were linked. I also had BioSC and dahdum as town. I had Brood as scum for this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334707¤tpage=5#87 What are you implying here? We should wait for everyone to post before coming to conclusions? That seems scummy to me, we should be analyzing peoples posts right now. You just created a reason for you not to post. Convince your not scum and this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334707¤tpage=7#130 On May 11 2012 04:33 BroodKingEXE wrote: WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH!!!! ShiaoPi are you defending Hyaach? A null read? He has provided zero evidence for his vote. Your whole list is terrible, it provides nothing more than a bunch "I'm leaning town, but you can never be sure reads". I smell a scumwagon. The first is impossible to respond to because it was obvious Firm was joking. In addition it makes sense to evaluate people's posts before coming to conclusion. Therefore they have to post. This looked to me like someone trying to start something from nothing. Especially that you followed it with a vote. The second one Shiapi wrote a huge post where he outlined his reads. This post just looks like an attempt to undermine Shiapi especially with the "scumwagon" bit. So in that respect I had the same read as town day 1. If Brood had claimed I would have pushed for a no-lynch Day 1. Finally it is worth noting that none of the mafia would pressured day 1. There were some rumblings about mufaa but nothing that forced him to do anything. Similarly Crossfire and Unforgiven just breezed through day 1 without making any noise. Look at the vote count just before the final one (Klicky). None of the mafia voted early, they didn't need too because they were not being held to account. Day 2 There was discussion around posting at night. I don't have a particular persuasion on this. My original position is that using night is the same as using day in that it gives you more to analyse. It fosters discussion which helps with determining people's alignment. That was until I read a game where mafia used the night discussion to sway their choice of shot. I don't think that either position is indicative of alignment. I will say that scum tend to be more active at night because they are not afraid of dying. In addition it means they can contribute long before the lynch looms. Note that there was a whole section where Crossfire and Unforgiven went back and forth. Two people who had no presence day 1. Jailbreaker being modkilled was a bummer. Do yourself a favour and look at this thread in the "All" view. You will note that the scrollbar is half way when Night 1 hits. That tells you that half the posts for the entire game came before the first night. Not good. This was a good post from Unforgiven (Klicky). Creates suspicion around austin in a lefit way. Being certain how many scum there are is not something town can do. It was clearly a mistake but Unforgiven did well to pounce on it. Mufaa sealed his case by not posting enough. People were getting suspicious of him and he did nothing about it. Anacletus came in with a strange case on BioSC and Tofu both I had pegged as town day 1. It's actually a great case for why mufaa was scum but he gets off with no read? (Klicky) Mufaa: I don't like how very early on his posts contained no assertions of mafia. I felt like he was just trying to stay clean and not put any pressure on himself until the very end of the day in which he voted for BKE. I also find his defense of me very fishy in that "Ana is probably just town" sort of thing. That being said this was an attempt to organise town and get things moving. He firmed as green in my book. So by this stage I had Ana, Bio and dahdum as town. There was also some serious WIFOM from Ana which just confuses things (Klicky). Ok the rest of the day was spent with Ana and Bio going at it. The problem was that no-one else was seriously considered as a candidate for the lynch. This always rings alarm bells for me. If two people dominate the thread and no-one is suggesting other candidates it is highly likely that they are town. Scum can sit back, pitch in tit-bits here and there and just laugh. Remember town doesn't know who is scum so acting like you do is detrimental. You have to be open to reconsidering your position which neither of these two did. Why Bio was scummy is beyond me. He was open and aggressive early and pretty rational. Ana was just off the chart. Look at this, it was right in the middle of the back and forth On May 14 2012 15:24 Unforgiven_ve wrote: Sup people, sorry i've been away. But i was very busy this weekend and Mothers day today didnt helped. i did read some of the post and i have a couple htings to point out, but im so tired, its 1:50am and i just got home. i will be posting tomorrow. Post for post sake with a promise of future contributions. But it was missed because no-one was looking elsewhere. Dahdum as far as I could tell, the only case you made against Bio was this (Klicky) which says that he was non-commital early day 1? You promised a follow up case which never eventuated. I don't know why Bio got lynched but he did. Again, scum didn't have to do or say anything. They could for themselves with little care about being held accountable for their actions, Unforgiven did it day 1, so why not both of them day 2? Austin put together his case on Darkfire which seemed to be based off of frustration rather than scummy play. Notably this post (Klicky) looks like you wanted him to post because you thought he might be town. The problem was everyone was lurking so targeted one of the few people actually posting. Again this comes back to establishing innocence, if you don't post, especially after day 1, you are actively hurting town and so should be high on the priority list for death. Dark was at least attempting to defend himself. In short, absence killed you this day. Hardly anyone was posting and what was being posted was weak. If you are going to use your vote, think about it. The fact that Dark got lynched with 3 votes is beyond terrible. In a non-majority lynch game your vote is extra special and so you should use it carefully. Day 3 Great shot on mufaa. Town got into trouble by again focusing on those who were posting. Mufaa lurked most the game and was mafia, why not the others? Early in the day no-one was convinced Anacletus was scum. Austin, Tofu and Bio all thought he just misguided or just ignored him. But because he was around he was looked at again. I guess the moral of the story is learn from your success. You shot a lurker and he was scum. There were other lurkers who were posting enough to get by without actually contributing. Text book mafia. austin, you played well this game but what happened with you changing from Crossfire to Hyaach? Your reasoning for voting for Hyaach was The ONLY reason I'm not entirely sold on Hyaach is his no-vote. When we already saw Jailbreaker get modkilled, a no-vote from a scummy player feels like way too large of a risk to take which is saying he is town. Then he doesn't appear so he confirms as scum? It's bad reasoning and the others jumped to it. You mentioned that crossfire and unforgiven were around so you gave them leeway but crossfire said absolutely nothing. Like nothing other than he would change his vote from Ana. Lurking is not just being absent, it is not contributing. I know you had to take a guess but your reason for letting crossfire off the hook was odd. Hyaach's lynch was really strange because there was no opposition to it. Tofu came in the end to point it out but it was too late. Then austin looked bad and got shot by Tofu. It was a strange ending to a strange game. The fact that mafia sailed through without really causing a fuss shows you that town was never really organised. Awards Townieest townie This goes to both FirmTofu and austin which is ironic given one shot the other. You both looked town from day 1 and drove discussion. I think you would have benefited from having people actually critique your cases rather than sheeping them Scummiest scum Unforgiven_ve gets this. He managed to vote for himself twice and yet was never really considered a candidate for lynch. All round well played. Dumbest moments of the game Dark getting lynched with 3 votes. Seriously how is that possible? Best moment FirmTofu shooting mufaa I could go on but soon I would have written more than most of you did in this game. TLDR - Town got screwed because they never established a set of "confirmed" townies. No-one is ever 100% confirmed but you were all suspecting each other all game long which meant mafia could easily blend in. Inactivity in the mid-end game made you focus on those posting and that lead to far too many mis-lynches. I think everyone town aligned needs to focus on establishing their innocence first. Playing "games" with people just leads to confusion and an easy ride for mafia. Any questions, fire away! | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
I can't really give a good reason for the switch off Crossfire. Apart from thinking Anac was town, I had lynched Brood and darkfire, thought dahdum was scummy, and thought Mufaa was slightly towny. Once I'd been wrong that many times, I lost confidence in my reads and didn't push for Crossfire because he actually responded to the questions I asked when I called out lurkers, whereas Hyaach didn't. Not a good reason, and it got worse throughout the day because I actually had reservations about lynching Hyaach due to the time zone difference and what I thought had been a vigi breadcrumb, yet was still willing to vote for him because...don't know. Just got overly frustrated. As a question, would you say that we had a bad idea of what "scummy" behavior was? I read the guides, but it seemed that I didn't keep them in mind fully once the game started. Looking back, I feel like some of the things that felt scummy to me such as timing of posts and little contradictions shouldn't have seemed scummy when compared to the lurking/self-votes. | ||
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
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jaj22
United Kingdom1376 Posts
On May 25 2012 10:51 Probulous wrote: Townieest townie This goes to both FirmTofu and austin which is ironic given one shot the other. You both looked town from day 1 and drove discussion. I think you would have benefited from having people actually critique your cases rather than sheeping them That reminds me. There's a remarkable lack of case-critique in most newbie games. Cases usually have points that are valid and points that are not, and need detailed criticism for improvement. Don't just leave the target to reply, because they'll be biased. What often happens is that people either accept a case whole or ignore it entirely. Both of these options are scummy. On May 25 2012 10:51 Probulous wrote: Best moment Hyaach shooting mufaa Tofu shot mufaa  | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On May 25 2012 11:14 austinmcc wrote: Thanks for the thoughts Probulous. Confirming townies felt very difficult, I guess a combination of being new to this/having low activity/no roleclaims. Seemed to tunnel way too hard once I thought someone was mafia, and be absolutely willing to change my mind on people like Firm who I'd read as town. I can't really give a good reason for the switch off Crossfire. Apart from thinking Anac was town, I had lynched Brood and darkfire, thought dahdum was scummy, and thought Mufaa was slightly towny. Once I'd been wrong that many times, I lost confidence in my reads and didn't push for Crossfire because he actually responded to the questions I asked when I called out lurkers, whereas Hyaach didn't. Not a good reason, and it got worse throughout the day because I actually had reservations about lynching Hyaach due to the time zone difference and what I thought had been a vigi breadcrumb, yet was still willing to vote for him because...don't know. Just got overly frustrated. As a question, would you say that we had a bad idea of what "scummy" behavior was? I read the guides, but it seemed that I didn't keep them in mind fully once the game started. Looking back, I feel like some of the things that felt scummy to me such as timing of posts and little contradictions shouldn't have seemed scummy when compared to the lurking/self-votes. I am not the greatest at building a convincing case against someone and following it through. I generally get a summy vibe from someone but can't determine why. I think the one time I did this really well was when I was scum and the target was on a different team (See my case on [UoN]Sentinel from Werewolves II, its in my profile). I also let TheToast off the hook for doing a blatantly scummy thing when I was an SK in Wiggles Mini Mafia II. In the first instance I caught Sentinel because he was undermining my case with really bad reasoning. It was subtle and had no basis in reason. So I started thinking, "why post that?" and then I realised that no townie would undermine another townie's case without some reason. That was how I figured him out. With Toast, on day 1 we had a tied vote in a plurality lynch (like this game) so either Misder or sandroba was going to be lynched but he voted for Pandain. This effectively sealed Misder's lynch without having to vote for Misder, plus sandroba turned out to be scum. Unfortunately I let him go in the end which was a really dumb move. In each case I noticed something that didn't make sense from a town point of view. The motivation behind the actions was scummy. I think in newbie games it easy to get caught up in how badly people play. You have to try and see what agenda they are pushing, are they trying to find scum? Are they taking responsibility for their actions? Do they look like they want town to win? Your early read on Anacletus was really good. Your logic that he was at least trying and was being open about his reads is exactly right. Crossfire was a classic case of scum playing off of bad town play. To his credit he knew that posting just enough to avoid suspicion would win the game. You had some good cases and were one of a few willing to look in other places. You just needed others to actually debate with you. | ||
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jaj22
United Kingdom1376 Posts
On May 25 2012 11:14 austinmcc wrote: Thanks for the thoughts Probulous. Confirming townies felt very difficult, I guess a combination of being new to this/having low activity/no roleclaims. Seemed to tunnel way too hard once I thought someone was mafia, and be absolutely willing to change my mind on people like Firm who I'd read as town. If a townie doesn't push a lynch hard, you'll just end up with scum's choice of lynches. Overall I'd say that your balance between tunnelling and self-doubt was about right. Certainly a lot better than mine. Getting strong town reads out of this game was genuinely tough. That's not always the case, even in newbie games. Check out Student Mafia for an extreme counter-example. As a question, would you say that we had a bad idea of what "scummy" behavior was? Only the people who thought you were scum, IMO There's a danger of confirmation bias here. The scummy things that scum did in this game you'll see from townies in other games, and vice versa. In the end, townies played too scummy in this game and so finding scum was pot luck. | ||
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