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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
Same options keep being discussed over and over again..
First of all DT's are just awful to rush for in PvZ now. By the time DT hit zerg can just morph overseers which are so cheap that they simply put zerg in the lead. Plus those same overseers easily let Zerg punish your third... Ever since overseers got their cost reduced DT have been a lategame tactic only for PvZ..
Double robo is also not a viable option. You're skewing your composition too much towards immortals/colossi then and a switch to infestors or air is really difficult to stop then. Note that Zerg doesn't have any big commitments towards roaches, they can easily switch back to infestor/ling or muta/ling at any point which they will do if they decide not to pressure your third. Besides getting up a second robo fast is a hassle, you're much better off just getting 1 quickly while massing up sentries then going for a second robo that will probably only produce one unit before a push comes..
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I've been playing double robo + blink for a while now. With perfect forcefields, you can do it, but it's incredibly hard and very map dependent. Roachling vs gateway expo is laughably easy in comparison.
Just my experience. 
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By double Robo+Blink, what do you mean? Which are you getting first, generally speaking? I feel like the whole point of double Robo vs Roaches is to get a bunch of Immortals out, severely lowering the need for Stalkers. I comprehend the fact that stalkers with their faster movement and blink have more tactical potential for attacks or for catching escaping units after engagements, but that's the trade-off when you basically choose to make more Immortals early instead because you want to be able to demolish Roaches. And yes, Stalkers do fight air units and do help against a Muta switch (or outright deter it), but do you really need the blink stalkers while you're trying to take your third base, if you just split your army in half and camp each one at your 2 expansions? It seems like a wasted tool if it's just there fore defense against Roach/Ling...I would rather just cut the chaff, make a minimal number of stalkers in that early period, and simply go with a Zealot/Sentry/Immortal composition that wins the ground wars with lower supply counts. It's not like it's a stretch of the imagination to be pumping out of 2 Robos for a couple minutes, deal with the Roaches, and then put up a lot of gates and research Blink while the opponent is spending a minute remaxing with Mutas. We (protoss players) constantly will build a Stargate early against Zerg and build only a very small number of units from it, then literally build nothing out of it for 5-10 minutes after transitioning. I don't see how going 2 Robo and abandoning their production for a few minutes is any different than going Stargate and abandoning it or building a bunch of extra gates (that your economy can't support) to leave warp-ins available in the case of multipronged attacks/defense or the need to remax quickly. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but if I am, I would love an explaination of how!
On April 21 2012 02:39 Markwerf wrote:Double robo is also not a viable option. You're skewing your composition too much towards immortals/colossi then and a switch to infestors or air is really difficult to stop then. Note that Zerg doesn't have any big commitments towards roaches, they can easily switch back to infestor/ling or muta/ling at any point which they will do if they decide not to pressure your third. Besides getting up a second robo fast is a hassle, you're much better off just getting 1 quickly while massing up sentries then going for a second robo that will probably only produce one unit before a push comes..
I don't think it's quite that cut-and-dry. Like I said, if you're trying to pump ranged Colossi out to stop specific Roach timings, then 2-base double-Robo is over-ambitious. However, if you scout and see that you're going to war with what's basically a pure roach or Roach/Ling army, then the idea is to respond to that by putting a second Robo down and pumping out more Immortals. Nobody ever said you had to get Colossi out of your Robo. Nobody said you had to ignore muta switches (sure, it is a relevant problem, but it is still changing the problem from 'I keep losing to Roach attacks while taking my third' to 'my opponent is muta-switching consistently after his roaches get denied').
A Robo is not a very difficult thing to build. It costs 200/100 and takes 65 in-game seconds to build. By comparison, a Gateway also costs 65 in-game seconds, but also basically requires 10 more in-game seconds (albeit boost-able) to transform into a Warp Gate...and we basically consider that mandatory. So while it doesn't give the instant gratification of extra gateways, it takes a slightly shorter build-time period and it costs a relatively low amount of initial capital. If building a second Robotics Facility is considered a 'hassle,' thats sounds more like a personal problem to me. Now, granted, the build time for Immortals is fairly long in 55 seconds (the traditional way, without warping in and using a cooldown), but when you consider that the stalker takes a 5 second warp-in and a 32 second cooldown to build (37 seconds total), the immortal is building faster in terms of build time per supply/price of unit (as one immortal shares both of those attributes, among other things, with stalkers). Chrono boosting an immortal is also more cost-efficient than Chrono Boosting two stalkers, by that scale, because you need twice the boosts to pump out 2 units faster.
I know there are other factors involved in this, but it's honestly not that difficult to get a second Robo up and pump out more Immortals or to pump out extra observers and/or a warp prism while constantly churning out immortals. The convenience factor shouldn't even play into this at all. To me, these are the primary issues to debate over when it comes to throwing down a second Robo in PvZ:
1. Can 2 Robos can be supported on 2 bases while still doing other things (building other units, cannons, a third, tech, upgrades, etc)? By 'supported,' I mean that with proper macro there are 2 Immortals building simultaneously or there are Immortals coming out of one with Observers/Warp Prism(s) coming out of the other, and there is still some other production going on (i.e. you're doing other stuff besides using 2 Robos).
2. When do you decide to put down Robo #2 in a build order? Probably after stargate/hallucination/anything scouts and sees the standard Stephano-style Roach play from a number of indications, or if you otherwise just happen to see a ton of Roaches on the map when you're in a 2-base situation.
3. What happens when the opponent switches tech? He had the maxed or near-maxed roach army, then you got the 2 Robos going and built a lot of Immortals, and now you have to deal with some other army. What is the plan for Mutas? Infestor Ling? Fast Broods? Hydras seem like they would need to simultaneously come with spire tech in order to be cost effective against someone with double Robo already established (because reaching for Colossi, even if you don't already have a Bay built, is pretty simple). And Ultralisks are basically ruled out for a while when you're sitting on a bunch of the hard-counter units What are the transitions for expected tech switches?
4. How much boosting is done on the Robos themselves? Maybe the point of 2 Robo Immort is to be boosting upgrades or Probes instead of the Robo, once the second one is up and running. There's a big difference in trying to support 2 Immortal production and trying to support heavily-boosted Immortal production.
I don't have proof from winning an MLG or a season of GSL to declare that Double Robo is worthwhile; I just have diamond ladder experience and theory. But I think it's certainly worth discussing. I have been experimenting a lot with throwing down a second Robo while taking a third, but not even getting the Robo Bay unless I see Hydras (if and when). All I want is the right units at the right time, and if 2 bases can support 2 Robos for more Immortals, that's definitely the right unit for fighting roaches. Can it work at higher levels, and how? That's what I want to know.
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Essentially you will need a very gas dependent army to take on mass roaches, simply because zealots melt a little too fast when the roach numbers are too great. Stalkers, Immortal, Sentry is a good enough composition to tackle on the roach ball that outnumbers you. I suggest taking a warp prism around your army so that you can take in and out your immortals as they get hurt and even so, your sentries so they dont get sniped when your retreating.
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On April 21 2012 11:50 ineversmile wrote:
1. Can 2 Robos can be supported on 2 bases while still doing other things (building other units, cannons, a third, tech, upgrades, etc)? By 'supported,' I mean that with proper macro there are 2 Immortals building simultaneously or there are Immortals coming out of one with Observers/Warp Prism(s) coming out of the other, and there is still some other production going on (i.e. you're doing other stuff besides using 2 Robos).
1 immortal is equivalent to 2 stalkers, so 2 essentially 2 robos = 4 gateways. You wont be able to take colo that early without sacrificing too much gas, Even if you get a colossus out, the immortal is so much more cost effective and the gas is better spent teching blink and transitioning into storm.
Best solution I have found so far is turtling with stalker immortal, and using warp prism harass everytime the zerg moves out to apply pressure. I've been using a 4g robo off a ffe, but I am having problems when they transition into broodlords. I think an early starport has a lot of potential, you will still need the immortals to hold off the roach a+click, but if the zerg does not transition out of it, then the starport will snowball out of control.
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United States7483 Posts
I've been playing around with a build based on Sase's, going for a fast +1 upgrade off one gas geyser, skipping cyber core, and doing a 2 gate zealot attack that hits quite early with more zealots than it ordinarily has with the four gate. I take the nexus at my third as my zealots are moving out and build the cyber core, add gas and make sentries while getting sim city and extra cannons.
I haven't lost with it yet vs. a fast third from zerg, it seems quite effective. I haven't failed to kill off the zerg third with it yet, and I get a huge econ lead a little later on, and you just feel really strong due to how much bigger your army is compared with the zergs vs. a normal game.
So far my opponents have tried to bust me with roaches, nydus, hydras, and all sorts of other counter attacks, but it's all quite easy to defend once you have your sim city down, and mutas don't seem to be a problem either.
It seems to work because you're combining strong early pressure, which makes the macro much harder on zerg and really slows them down (or outright does very heavy damage), while being somewhat greedy yourself, so that when the normal timing for the huge roach push comes, your army is bigger than it usually is, and your enemy's army is smaller than it usually is. I use hallucination for scouting after warp gate finishes. My followup so far has been to throw down a lot of extra gates to help with sim city and rely on gateway units for a long time, while going double forge to make muta/ling play less effective (I think muta/ling is a better followup for zerg to deal with this than going roach or infestor), get blink, then add on robos later. Relying on gateway units seems to put you in a better position to handle the follow up mutas than a robo based defense, assuming you hold the roaches without too many losses.
I'm gonna play around with it some more and get some good replays.
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On April 22 2012 04:58 Whitewing wrote:
I've been playing around with a build based on Sase's, going for a fast +1 upgrade off one gas geyser, skipping cyber core, and doing a 2 gate zealot attack that hits quite early with more zealots than it ordinarily has with the four gate. I take the nexus at my third as my zealots are moving out and build the cyber core, add gas and make sentries while getting sim city and extra cannons.
I haven't lost with it yet vs. a fast third from zerg, it seems quite effective. I haven't failed to kill off the zerg third with it yet, and I get a huge econ lead a little later on, and you just feel really strong due to how much bigger your army is compared with the zergs vs. a normal game.
So far my opponents have tried to bust me with roaches, nydus, hydras, and all sorts of other counter attacks, but it's all quite easy to defend once you have your sim city down, and mutas don't seem to be a problem either.
It seems to work because you're combining strong early pressure, which makes the macro much harder on zerg and really slows them down (or outright does very heavy damage), while being somewhat greedy yourself, so that when the normal timing for the huge roach push comes, your army is bigger than it usually is, and your enemy's army is smaller than it usually is. I use hallucination for scouting after warp gate finishes. My followup so far has been to throw down a lot of extra gates to help with sim city and rely on gateway units for a long time, while going double forge to make muta/ling play less effective (I think muta/ling is a better followup for zerg to deal with this than going roach or infestor), get blink, then add on robos later. Relying on gateway units seems to put you in a better position to handle the follow up mutas than a robo based defense, assuming you hold the roaches without too many losses.
I'm gonna play around with it some more and get some good replays.
you have a replay at hand of sase doing it?
i have been using a similar strategy, but obv. not very optimized.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 22 2012 05:08 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 04:58 Whitewing wrote:
I've been playing around with a build based on Sase's, going for a fast +1 upgrade off one gas geyser, skipping cyber core, and doing a 2 gate zealot attack that hits quite early with more zealots than it ordinarily has with the four gate. I take the nexus at my third as my zealots are moving out and build the cyber core, add gas and make sentries while getting sim city and extra cannons.
I haven't lost with it yet vs. a fast third from zerg, it seems quite effective. I haven't failed to kill off the zerg third with it yet, and I get a huge econ lead a little later on, and you just feel really strong due to how much bigger your army is compared with the zergs vs. a normal game.
So far my opponents have tried to bust me with roaches, nydus, hydras, and all sorts of other counter attacks, but it's all quite easy to defend once you have your sim city down, and mutas don't seem to be a problem either.
It seems to work because you're combining strong early pressure, which makes the macro much harder on zerg and really slows them down (or outright does very heavy damage), while being somewhat greedy yourself, so that when the normal timing for the huge roach push comes, your army is bigger than it usually is, and your enemy's army is smaller than it usually is. I use hallucination for scouting after warp gate finishes. My followup so far has been to throw down a lot of extra gates to help with sim city and rely on gateway units for a long time, while going double forge to make muta/ling play less effective (I think muta/ling is a better followup for zerg to deal with this than going roach or infestor), get blink, then add on robos later. Relying on gateway units seems to put you in a better position to handle the follow up mutas than a robo based defense, assuming you hold the roaches without too many losses.
I'm gonna play around with it some more and get some good replays. you have a replay at hand of sase doing it? i have been using a similar strategy, but obv. not very optimized.
Unfortunately no, I saw him use it a while back and took notes, but I don't have the replay.
My biggest concern with the build is that, if zerg scouts what you're doing, he just plays defensively and carefully and your zealot push doesn't do much damage and you're behind in tech too much, or that he just roach busts you when you have no sentries.
Still, it's hard to imagine zerg getting away with a fast third and getting the economy out of it he wants while defending this strong of a zealot push, zerglings are simply insufficient vs. this many +1 zealots.
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On April 21 2012 02:07 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 22:19 VoirDire wrote:On April 20 2012 21:51 emis wrote:
2 robos and building wall at third. ez mode You won't get any meaningful production out of 2 robos by 10:30. Well, not if you're getting blink, upgrades from 1-2 forges, Extended Lances, and double Colossi with chrono boosts; no, the second Robo won't work in that case. But if you're pumping out 2 Immortals or 1 Colossus+1 Immortal at a time, or you're getting extra observers/Warp Prism(s) while you get Immortals/Colossi, then isn't that a good use for a second Robo? Conventional economic math is that a Robo and a couple Gateways can be run off of one mining base, so wouldn't you be able to double that to about 4 gates and about 2 Robos running off of 2 bases? Yes, it's a trade-off where you don't get some other form of tech, but if you're churning out a bunch of Immortals or building Immortals simultaneously with other useful robo units, then it's going to be very strong against a heavy Roach composition. The worst thing that happens is you use the second Robo a lot for 5 minutes, then you don't use it for 5 minutes after that while you switch tech into something else because the Zerg is forced to seriously adapt.
2 base 4 gate+2 robo works if you're going for a 2 base all-in, but not a 3 base macro game. You won't be able to produce out of everything and you won't have any buildings to wall with (unless you want to wall with 2 robos or try to take the 3rd with just 1 gateway). Additionally, you'll need lots of sentries to hold a roach bust and you'll not be able to afford immortal production with enough sentries unless you want to build all zealots (which suck defensively against roaches).
Besides, there's just 3 extractors worth of roaches from a roach bust, the rest is in zerglings (and most reinforcement is in zerglings too).
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On April 20 2012 23:18 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 17:30 Clarity_nl wrote:
I think surviving the 200 max roach push is more than just a simple: "I counter it with this".
Solid play while securing a third without cutting corners beats it. Good ff, good positioning, good sim city at your third. Yeah this Roaches desperately need numbers/surface area to beat a smaller, forcefielding Protoss army. Or burrow + burrow movement, which takes a while to get up. Good simcity and minimap awareness should allow 'Toss to SAFELY take a third and either hold it or force too large of an army sacrifice taking it out for Z to hold off your counter-attack.
You see, the thing is, when Zerg is on 3 base, roaches are almost free. Even with a macro hatch in addition to the other 3 hatches, Zerg can't actually spend 3 bases of income on just roaches. It is a perfectly viable strat to just keep ramming your mass of roach/ling into their third, forcing them to expend sentry energy and picking off a few units. Sure you'll lose your lings and a few roaches every time, but lightspeed lings let you reinforce with more and more units almost instantly. Protoss will be forced to keep making sentries and gate units/immortals instead of teching.
Since you're not spending your income, while you're doing this you can also start teching to mutas, and then hit the main/natural with your mutas while continuously attacking the third. It's almost impossible for the Protoss player to micro against the mutas and keep the third defended, he has to split off the exact right amount of stalkers for defense, too few and the mutas kill his economy, too many and the roaches run him over.
You need to play Protoss for awhile to fully appreciate how hard this is, you have to do stuff like make sure you remove the stalkers you split off from your main army's control group or they'll just turn around halfway over there when you start frantically microing against the incoming roaches, letting the mutas kill everything. Sometimes the mutas pick off a pylon powering 5 gateways and you just lose on the spot as you can no longer keep up with the roach/ling spam at the third. Also, while microing against the mutas, you have to be ready to switch your screen over to the third, select your sentries, and place perfect FFs without energy wastage with about one second of warning on the minimap, mess this up even slightly and you lose on the spot as the roach mass runs into melee range.
Alternatively the Zerg can just go infestors and keep up the pressure with roaches while teching to infestors, keeping your unit count and tech down as you have to keep making more and more sentries, then busting you with 8-10 infestors + all the roaches coming to your expo with mass infested terrans and a few fungals to annihilate all your sentries.
Taking a third on most maps without causing significant damage to the Zerg economy first is just not viable. Even the pros rarely do it, it's all about the 2-base allins because securing a third is just not realistic with how inexpensive roaches are, how easy they are to spam, and how fast they move. You need to be able to solid wall off the expo to the point that you can completely prevent entry with 2 forcefields max, otherwise it's just not going to work.
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I was watching CreatorPrime's stream the other day vs IMLosira and his approach to this was to open standard ffe with the zealot stalker poke, and followed it up with gases 3 and 4 before adding gateways 2,3 and 4. He would then add a robo, and go collosus while taking his third. He held the third with good positioning and forcefields etc. It was on Antiga Shipyard.
Naturally I can't tell if Losira did the build correct or the most optimised way, but Losira is no scrub and Creator held it rather well.
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On April 21 2012 12:51 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 11:50 ineversmile wrote:
1. Can 2 Robos can be supported on 2 bases while still doing other things (building other units, cannons, a third, tech, upgrades, etc)? By 'supported,' I mean that with proper macro there are 2 Immortals building simultaneously or there are Immortals coming out of one with Observers/Warp Prism(s) coming out of the other, and there is still some other production going on (i.e. you're doing other stuff besides using 2 Robos).
1 immortal is equivalent to 2 stalkers, so 2 essentially 2 robos = 4 gateways.
Immortals build in 60 seconds; Stalker warpgate cooldown is 32 seconds. One robo building Immortals spends money only a little bit faster than one warpgate building Stalker unless you're feeding it chronos.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 22 2012 17:16 shirobu wrote:
I was watching CreatorPrime's stream the other day vs IMLosira and his approach to this was to open standard ffe with the zealot stalker poke, and followed it up with gases 3 and 4 before adding gateways 2,3 and 4. He would then add a robo, and go collosus while taking his third. He held the third with good positioning and forcefields etc. It was on Antiga Shipyard.
Naturally I can't tell if Losira did the build correct or the most optimised way, but Losira is no scrub and Creator held it rather well.
Antiga shipyard is a really good map for defending this sort of thing, but this won't work nearly as easily on a lot of other maps. Entombed Valley is another good map, but trying to defend a third against this on say... Daybreak, would be a hell of a lot more difficult.
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Stephano Style is awesome in mid game, without any doubt. its nearly impossible for toss to beat it. one thing that could work is 2 stargate opener. or something tricky.
However... stephano style is really bad in the early game. up to the 8 minute mark, pressure will be more than cost effektive.
Stalkers are the answer vs no gas style. for sure u need a good micro. but 3-4 stalkers at 7 minutes ( without warpgate tech, just make them out of gateways one by one )
If he seriously goes for stephano style, there is no way that he can counter this unless your micro isnt good enough.
In GSL everyone does this. i think foreigners just dont get it. the zerg has to produce Tons ( 20 ... if your micro is average )
if your micro is good, he needs about 30 lings. thats 15 drones. he wont have 60 drones at 8:00. he will have maybe 45.
for sure u need a good follow up.
and nearly everything becomes more effektive after such an opening.
you dont even need fast sentrys. if he didnt make a gas and took a third at 4-6 minutes, you can be sure that you can go up to 4 stalkers.
im not gonna lie. one reason for foreigners dont using this kind of style vs stephano style is that it requires alot of multitasking.
Zealots, and timing pushes will fail as long as you dont make this fast stalkers.
GL!
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United States8476 Posts
On April 22 2012 18:08 GodOfWarAReS wrote:
Stephano Style is awesome in mid game, without any doubt. its nearly impossible for toss to beat it. one thing that could work is 2 stargate opener. or something tricky.
However... stephano style is really bad in the early game. up to the 8 minute mark, pressure will be more than cost effektive.
Stalkers are the answer vs no gas style. for sure u need a good micro. but 3-4 stalkers at 7 minutes ( without warpgate tech, just make them out of gateways one by one )
If he seriously goes for stephano style, there is no way that he can counter this unless your micro isnt good enough.
In GSL everyone does this. i think foreigners just dont get it. the zerg has to produce Tons ( 20 ... if your micro is average )
if your micro is good, he needs about 30 lings. thats 15 drones. he wont have 60 drones at 8:00. he will have maybe 45.
for sure u need a good follow up.
and nearly everything becomes more effektive after such an opening.
you dont even need fast sentrys. if he didnt make a gas and took a third at 4-6 minutes, you can be sure that you can go up to 4 stalkers.
im not gonna lie. one reason for foreigners dont using this kind of style vs stephano style is that it requires alot of multitasking.
Zealots, and timing pushes will fail as long as you dont make this fast stalkers.
GL!
-_- Just about everything in this post is wrong.
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^ haha yea... wow. literally every line was wrong.
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On April 22 2012 18:44 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 18:08 GodOfWarAReS wrote:
Stephano Style is awesome in mid game, without any doubt. its nearly impossible for toss to beat it. one thing that could work is 2 stargate opener. or something tricky.
However... stephano style is really bad in the early game. up to the 8 minute mark, pressure will be more than cost effektive.
Stalkers are the answer vs no gas style. for sure u need a good micro. but 3-4 stalkers at 7 minutes ( without warpgate tech, just make them out of gateways one by one )
If he seriously goes for stephano style, there is no way that he can counter this unless your micro isnt good enough.
In GSL everyone does this. i think foreigners just dont get it. the zerg has to produce Tons ( 20 ... if your micro is average )
if your micro is good, he needs about 30 lings. thats 15 drones. he wont have 60 drones at 8:00. he will have maybe 45.
for sure u need a good follow up.
and nearly everything becomes more effektive after such an opening.
you dont even need fast sentrys. if he didnt make a gas and took a third at 4-6 minutes, you can be sure that you can go up to 4 stalkers.
im not gonna lie. one reason for foreigners dont using this kind of style vs stephano style is that it requires alot of multitasking.
Zealots, and timing pushes will fail as long as you dont make this fast stalkers.
GL! -_- Just about everything in this post is wrong.
I think he's trolling. There's no way anyone can be that misinformed.
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On April 22 2012 18:44 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 18:08 GodOfWarAReS wrote:
Stephano Style is awesome in mid game, without any doubt. its nearly impossible for toss to beat it. one thing that could work is 2 stargate opener. or something tricky.
However... stephano style is really bad in the early game. up to the 8 minute mark, pressure will be more than cost effektive.
Stalkers are the answer vs no gas style. for sure u need a good micro. but 3-4 stalkers at 7 minutes ( without warpgate tech, just make them out of gateways one by one )
If he seriously goes for stephano style, there is no way that he can counter this unless your micro isnt good enough.
In GSL everyone does this. i think foreigners just dont get it. the zerg has to produce Tons ( 20 ... if your micro is average )
if your micro is good, he needs about 30 lings. thats 15 drones. he wont have 60 drones at 8:00. he will have maybe 45.
for sure u need a good follow up.
and nearly everything becomes more effektive after such an opening.
you dont even need fast sentrys. if he didnt make a gas and took a third at 4-6 minutes, you can be sure that you can go up to 4 stalkers.
im not gonna lie. one reason for foreigners dont using this kind of style vs stephano style is that it requires alot of multitasking.
Zealots, and timing pushes will fail as long as you dont make this fast stalkers.
GL! -_- Just about everything in this post is wrong.
This is why I just skim for the blue posts. Glad to see you're still active in this thread even if kcdc left.
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I've been doing a super fast 3rd off of 1 gate while pressuring with 4 chronoed units (2 STALKER 2 ZEALOT) and its been working alright. I think stargate play is still better if you do it properly but its a fun build to work with and often cripples zers who arent expecting it. You want to hide the fact you chrono so many units thoguh if possible. This generally forces 20 lings or more and like the poster above said which does reduce drone count. You also have to cut your own economy in order to do so but It still seems fairly strong merely because zergs dont expect it. You can of course do other transitions but if you got the apm to spare I think it is completely worth it.
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A lot of builds that work - and a lot that doesn't - have been talked about, but looking at Stephano's stream there is a new build going around on the EU server that is handling his build very well - he's lost twice in a row to it already, and not to the best of players. It's basically a very fast 4 gate +1 zealot pressure into 1-2 base all-in, but that itself is not exciting because 4 gates are a flimsy build. The question is - is the build scoutable? Are you able to fake a FFE into it? Because an unscoutable 4-5 gate build is what Protoss needs to force a meta-game shift away from 3 hatch roach.
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EPT
