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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On April 08 2012 13:29 Rigorous wrote:
monk and kcdc,
Thanks for the replys. Just to be clear, my all-in is not just immo/sentry. It's with blink as well and +2 attack / +1 armor that hits at 12-12:30. The standard comp is 6 sentry / 3immo and countless blink stalkers at 12-12:30. Starts with prism harass as well and usually you will get at least 5+ drones plus lost mining time by ff the mineral line. I beat maxed roach armies all the time...it requires good ff and good blink. and you have 8 gates to reinforce which matches the zerg production capability as long as your first engagement goes well.
My build transitions well against muta play, because instead of all-inning, I can take a third because I have blink.
By 12:00 you should be defending massive stream of roaches not all-inning if you play vs a good zerg 
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Vatican City State334 Posts
On April 08 2012 07:43 Decendos wrote:
i also dont think SG is the way to go.
white-ras style looked really solid though.
I kinda agree. People are having trouble with this style because the Stargate soaks up potential Immortal build time, but if you simply make Immortals from the start you can keep up with the Roach production. I was previously having trouble with this style but actually feel more comfortable playing against it now just by going Robo first if I see the quick third and either cancelling it or going blink + obs if I see gas.
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SG into voids + phoenixes is mostly just a much harder style to play because you really need the multitask to make it work. Many maps are also just poor for it now as ground distances and air distances are mostly equal plus zerg can often just see the void coming over from a watchtower with enough time to respond with a spore crawler.
If you spawn 10 at antiga with the zerg at 1 then SG is still pretty solid though. To stop this roach push it's better to just go with a couple voids and no phoenix as that deters the roach streaming to your base much better. Voids are still great for dealing with a zerg that splits up his units, 2 voids over the rocks on antiga or over your walloff on an other map does really well to stop aggression on that side while you have your main army between your nat and third. Voids are also nice to simply use like hellions: to avoid the creep highway spreading further.
The straight up robo is much better on maps where the stargate is just very unlikely to do any damage though such as shakuras. Zerg simply always sees it coming and straight off robo will be better if you're going for a third.
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On April 08 2012 12:07 kcdc wrote:
Rigorous, immortal/sentry all-in has been discussed quite a bit in this thread. That's a strong build, but it's not a new idea here. That said, the thread is way too long to expect people to read through it before posting, so people are going to post the same ideas over and over. For example, we get somebody new suggesting double-robo immortal every third page or so. Then the crowd shouts them down pointing out that it gets owned by mutas. Come to think of it, it's been about 3 pages now.....
If blindly purchasing a second Robo is enough to deal with roach-heavy play, so be it. I doubt 200/100 on an unused tech structure will break you if the Zerg doesn't go roach.
Of course, this depends upon you scouting before you actually mass the Immortals.
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I have been trying to delay the Zerg's natural as long as possible. If you can force him to take a different base for his hatch, he will almost always 3 base or one base all-in. If you can tell which one it is, then you can where his army is and if you can sneak a third. And on 3 bases, you can actually go 2 robo immortal+archon. You still can't kill his third, but you can keep him from producing muta and possibly take a 4th.
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i have not read all 57 pages, but his initial thought of going ffe with sentries and fast third is very vulnerable to roach hydra all ins , especially with nydus.
Let's face it if you go voids for map control and fast third, he has a shitload of options to seriously rape you with some all ins.
You are so spread thin.
I have a good replay if anyones interested, I'll upload it. (high masters level)
I still believe that there are options but the whole PvZ feels so fragile as a toss nowadays. One mistake and youre out.
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Possibly high pressure from very early on is the only solution - hah... I remember in beta when I used to play toss vs zerg I would always open 2 gate proxy (blocking off natural) - just to keep the zerg in check very early - then you had the option of either teching or expoing, always depending on what is going on during the game. Toss are great vs zerg because they can apply so much pressure early with zealots - why not abuse it?
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On April 08 2012 18:09 AshenCZ wrote:
I think that third at circa 6:30 is the way to go as a counter to fast 3rd from Z opponent. Ofc if you see him taking gases and not expanding to 3rd you probably ought not to try it at all, as 2 base muta or roach ling allin are incoming.
I think people should understand that after this time of playing SC2, there simply won't be a safe strategy to go every game because it will get more and more complex and reaction based. I don't see any point in trying to find a supersafe strategy vs everything, just try to find a strategy that works against Stephano roaches and keeps you relatively safe (like the 6:30 3rd of WhiteRa)
howgh
If it was that easy to scout a zerg what he is doing at that point in the game, alot of the problems would be solved already.
The problem is even tho you can visually see 12 roaches on the field, you need a robo ( or hallucination ) to scout out what he REALLY is up to. And if you prepare for mass roach and in the background he will Roach/Hydra nydus you, you're dead.
It's one of the things Browder actually adressed. The scouting options for a protoss untill robo are too little.
Now here is the next thing about zerg versus protoss. EVen if you scout a spire, who knows if he build it in response to your robo, or if he really want to commit to Muta's? there is no telling untill you see 15-20 units pop out and once, and that's too late to be able to completely overhaul your tech path.
And there should be a safe go to build in every matchup otherwise it will be coin flipping untill you see the actual units pop out of their cocoons.
In TvZ marine tank is a safe go to build, why? marines handle lings/muta's well, Tanks handle banelings/infestors well. So why doesn't protoss get this type of build?
Zerg is supposed to be the reactionary build, and in ZvP they are the ones that control the tech path of protoss. So what we are searching for is a build that allows us to handle the three most common strategies a zerg can use against protoss, Mass roach, Roach hydra and muta ling.
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On April 08 2012 22:39 TechSc2 wrote:In TvZ marine tank is a safe go to build, why? marines handle lings/muta's well, Tanks handle banelings/infestors well. So why doesn't protoss get this type of build?
We do, it's called mass blink stalker + 3-6 colossus. The issue is to get them in the right ratio compared to what zerg can churn out in the same time. Secondly, the terran composition is gas light compared to protoss units, they are cheaper and more refresh-friendly. We do have a strong all-around build, but it is less accessible compared to the terran one.
EDIT: I think the strength of the terran ball is the effort that terran players put into keeping it alive, because it is much more fragile compared to the protoss ball. If protoss players put more effort into keeping our deathball alive, then I think zergs would have more problems than right now.
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On April 08 2012 20:41 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 12:07 kcdc wrote:
Rigorous, immortal/sentry all-in has been discussed quite a bit in this thread. That's a strong build, but it's not a new idea here. That said, the thread is way too long to expect people to read through it before posting, so people are going to post the same ideas over and over. For example, we get somebody new suggesting double-robo immortal every third page or so. Then the crowd shouts them down pointing out that it gets owned by mutas. Come to think of it, it's been about 3 pages now..... If blindly purchasing a second Robo is enough to deal with roach-heavy play, so be it. I doubt 200/100 on an unused tech structure will break you if the Zerg doesn't go roach. Of course, this depends upon you scouting before you actually mass the Immortals.
There it is. We're clear for 3 pages. Thanks.
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Austria24416 Posts
On April 08 2012 23:13 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 20:41 Severedevil wrote:On April 08 2012 12:07 kcdc wrote:
Rigorous, immortal/sentry all-in has been discussed quite a bit in this thread. That's a strong build, but it's not a new idea here. That said, the thread is way too long to expect people to read through it before posting, so people are going to post the same ideas over and over. For example, we get somebody new suggesting double-robo immortal every third page or so. Then the crowd shouts them down pointing out that it gets owned by mutas. Come to think of it, it's been about 3 pages now..... If blindly purchasing a second Robo is enough to deal with roach-heavy play, so be it. I doubt 200/100 on an unused tech structure will break you if the Zerg doesn't go roach. Of course, this depends upon you scouting before you actually mass the Immortals. There it is. We're clear for 3 pages. Thanks.
LOL.
Do you think there's a good way to hold once the zerg has gone down that path or should I just try to keep them away from it from the very beginning?
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I am totaly bummed out by this strategy that is so popular on the ladder now. I mean every zerg does it. I am top 10master in NA and can't seem to defeat this unless the zerg makes a mistake.
At first i was going 2 base all-in with immortals or 8 gate or something similiar. But now that the zerg seemed to figure out how to beat it. (Go more roaches,lings) and flank. It seems like i can't punish his early third in any way.
I've tried stargate but that is just horrible against this build. As soon as zerg sees it he switches to air play and crushes you because you cant tech switch as fast.
If you dont build robo-immortal you get crushed by roaches after they wear off your ff.
If you go early gateway pressure, there gonna stop it and your way too behind.
Roaches are so cost-effective compared to stalker. Yeah blink stalker is decent against roaches but lings own stalker. Which is normal right? Need counter for everything. But zealots do NOT counter roaches. Forcefield are great but after its gone, your gone.
Can't seem to find a solid build against this fast third. I've tried 1gate-expo. Which forces the zerg to delay the third for a little but there's next to nothing you can do to punish the third that will be coming with almost 60+ drone by the time you hit.
People say harass more, but it gets repelled by few roaches/lings and if you commit too hard you lose everything.
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One really gimmiky method that I've had used against me is a really really fast proxy 3rd base, ie. as fast as a Zerg so 4:30. The way the person I was playing followed it up was triple stargate which I felt was kind of bad, but due to the gas used for stargate units it left him able to throw down cannons everywhere.
Obviously it's gimmiky but hey this thread is all about theory crafting what works and doesn't so maybe some one will be able to adapt this to make it more viable.
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Austria24416 Posts
On April 09 2012 01:30 Host- wrote:
One really gimmiky method that I've had used against me is a really really fast proxy 3rd base, ie. as fast as a Zerg so 4:30. The way the person I was playing followed it up was triple stargate which I felt was kind of bad, but due to the gas used for stargate units it left him able to throw down cannons everywhere.
Obviously it's gimmiky but hey this thread is all about theory crafting what works and doesn't so maybe some one will be able to adapt this to make it more viable.
LOL, what a baller. It just leaves me vulnerable to everything though. If the zerg finds out and uses his 3rd as a simple macro hatch or even cancels it, I'm dead I suppose.
But I gotta try that sometime, it sounds fun.
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I tried the build Day[9] showed in this daily:
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-436-p1-pvz-3-base-and-long-term-play-6056377
I played the same guy twice in a row on ladder (a great guy I know from a b.net channel).
In the first try he raped me with roaches, but in second game I was able to defend reasonably well (only losing 1 nexus ^^) and was ultimately able to win the game.
I think my SG play delayed him ~1min or so (he was maxed @ ~13:00 game time w/ burrow & 1+ atk). Of course the SG also delayed me, but the real strength of the opening is the ability to make void rays.
Check out the winning replay here:
http://replayfu.com/r/wd2dPq
As you can se we are very evenly matched, so even though we are not pros, I believe the game is a pretty good data point. What do you think?
Replay of my loss here:
http://replayfu.com/r/8Gs9Sh
Edit: I also have a replay where I win with this build vs muta/ling, and of course Grubby uses it vs Muta/ling in the Daily I mentioned. I feel like this is viable.
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OK, I'm purely talking loosely but what about heavy air vs mass roach? Something along the lines of:
FFE w/ 2 SG
Core goes WG, Hallu (and maybe 1 sent to use it with for scouting), +1 Air weps
Standard timing on third with extra cannons
Pump zeal void
Show a few voids for usual harass, dickery at their third, snipe any ovies you can etc, but mass them at home pumping zeals and cannons with excess minerals. The idea would be to use hallu to see when the roaches begin to move out on the map, and pounce then with all your voids. Once they get charged 7 +1 voids will kill a roach in less than a second, the idea would be use the voids midmap to weaken as much as possible, then use zealot/cannon/simcity at base to hold out long enough for voids to slaughter kill the roaches.
Thats the idea at least, what I'm more interested in is why that's NOT feasible.
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NesTea vs Squirte will be coming up at IPL4 in an hour (if they start on time and if TvTs before that is not too long...). Lets see how many roaches NesTea makes before Squirtle gg's. I somehow hope everytime I will see something new...
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Canada13378 Posts
On April 09 2012 02:03 See.Blue wrote:
OK, I'm purely talking loosely but what about heavy air vs mass roach? Something along the lines of:
FFE w/ 2 SG
Core goes WG, Hallu (and maybe 1 sent to use it with for scouting), +1 Air weps
Standard timing on third with extra cannons
Pump zeal void
Show a few voids for usual harass, dickery at their third, snipe any ovies you can etc, but mass them at home pumping zeals and cannons with excess minerals. The idea would be to use hallu to see when the roaches begin to move out on the map, and pounce then with all your voids. Once they get charged 7 +1 voids will kill a roach in less than a second, the idea would be use the voids midmap to weaken as much as possible, then use zealot/cannon/simcity at base to hold out long enough for voids to slaughter kill the roaches.
Thats the idea at least, what I'm more interested in is why that's NOT feasible.
This has already been discussed, you should really read through a good portion of the thread. The topic is how to have a good, long term standard play that can deal with this reasonably well. We want to be able to take our third base, macro, defend and have good scouting on our side without relying on hiding our strategy from the zerg.
If you need to hide the massed voids, and they see them they get mutas, or a lot of hydras and they can then take the game. Double stargate isn't a viable option for massing voids. Thats the brute force answer that relies on the zerg not seeing it and not reacting. Of course 10 void rays will kill a ton of roaches, the problem is what if they see it and what if they have so many roaches that they can kill you when they hit your base and trade for two nexuses.
You can't float the void rays in the middle of the map so they become purely defensive at that point. No robo means any burrow kills your strategy in terms of killing their army. Void rays are not super fast so if they back off burrow mid map and tech to hydras or mutas you just kind of die :/
If you decide to start kiling ovies and spores or hatches, they unborrow the roaches and force a base trade scenario.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 09 2012 02:03 See.Blue wrote:
OK, I'm purely talking loosely but what about heavy air vs mass roach? Something along the lines of:
FFE w/ 2 SG
Core goes WG, Hallu (and maybe 1 sent to use it with for scouting), +1 Air weps
Standard timing on third with extra cannons
Pump zeal void
Show a few voids for usual harass, dickery at their third, snipe any ovies you can etc, but mass them at home pumping zeals and cannons with excess minerals. The idea would be to use hallu to see when the roaches begin to move out on the map, and pounce then with all your voids. Once they get charged 7 +1 voids will kill a roach in less than a second, the idea would be use the voids midmap to weaken as much as possible, then use zealot/cannon/simcity at base to hold out long enough for voids to slaughter kill the roaches.
Thats the idea at least, what I'm more interested in is why that's NOT feasible.
There really needs to be a disclaimer at the start of this thread, preventing people from suggesting immortal all-in, double robo, and double stargate. None of these work. If your opponent makes mutas or hydras vs 7 voidrays, you automatically lose.
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On April 09 2012 02:10 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 02:03 See.Blue wrote:
OK, I'm purely talking loosely but what about heavy air vs mass roach? Something along the lines of:
FFE w/ 2 SG
Core goes WG, Hallu (and maybe 1 sent to use it with for scouting), +1 Air weps
Standard timing on third with extra cannons
Pump zeal void
Show a few voids for usual harass, dickery at their third, snipe any ovies you can etc, but mass them at home pumping zeals and cannons with excess minerals. The idea would be to use hallu to see when the roaches begin to move out on the map, and pounce then with all your voids. Once they get charged 7 +1 voids will kill a roach in less than a second, the idea would be use the voids midmap to weaken as much as possible, then use zealot/cannon/simcity at base to hold out long enough for voids to slaughter kill the roaches.
Thats the idea at least, what I'm more interested in is why that's NOT feasible. There really needs to be a disclaimer at the start of this thread, preventing people from suggesting immortal all-in, double robo, and double stargate. None of these work. If your opponent makes mutas or hydras vs 7 voidrays, you automatically lose.
Alright calm yourself a little. All I wanted was an explanation of why this didn't work, if it IS just the potential for a tech switch then fine.
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EPT
