EPTbtw. both include a fast third so anybody mentioning the sentry immo 2 base allin doesnt get the point.
[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 56
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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
btw. both include a fast third so anybody mentioning the sentry immo 2 base allin doesnt get the point. | ||
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aintthatfunny
193 Posts
I didn't see the whitera game though so idk about that. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
white-ras style looked really solid though. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
 Seems like protoss are slowly finding ways to manage that build. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
On April 08 2012 08:16 DarkLordOlli wrote: Not at all. Did you see Nestea's games vs Tails? He doesn't care about a damn thing, he's maxed at 12:00 and wins. Stephano didn't play that well against JYP and WhiteRa while Nestea did. That just shows you how damn powerful this really is, Nestea's mechanics are top 3 in the world imo. If someone like him plays this style, I don't see any way of holding it. Tails has only been in Code A twice, and never made Code S. Nestea won GSL three times. I don't think the results of those games prove anything about whether or not the build is holdable. | ||
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
On April 08 2012 08:16 DarkLordOlli wrote: Not at all. Did you see Nestea's games vs Tails? He doesn't care about a damn thing, he's maxed at 12:00 and wins. Stephano didn't play that well against JYP and WhiteRa while Nestea did. That just shows you how damn powerful this really is, Nestea's mechanics are top 3 in the world imo. If someone like him plays this style, I don't see any way of holding it. Ok you dont, but why not let someone with the same mechanics see if they can Everything takes time. There was a time when z expanding before pool was unbeatable, broken and imba. Now its 3 base (ok some nerfs happened, but still) This wasn't meant to be a comment on balance, but this game has been blaanced rapidly ... very rapidly. When you look at how long it took for things to evolve in bw vs the rarity of patches compared to sc2 the pace is frightening. Maybe im wrong but its the impression i get. Changes in style in sc2 seem to be patch driven. I am sure if patching slowed down players would discover a lot of intersting resourceful way of dealing with a lot of this stuff by completley sidestepping the problems. Granted I dont have a clue how. but then i suck. Although down where i am its very nice to know you can max out by the 12 min mark. Sets a whole new standard for the game. Its easy for a z to do which is probably the real problem wheras the answer probably requires some skill. Its just a shame that protoss now has to deal with a very harsh mirror matchup, the 1-1-1 in tvp and now the 12 min max roaches. Anyone else think that balancing terran around marines and protoss around ff is getting in the way and making things too fragile? (The z equiv is decent queen control). People have mentioned map features a few times. I think this is a factor that is *really* important in this kind of situation. The problem for protoss fundementally is slowing or choking the z attack to be able to manage it over a longer period of time. IE z stays maxed for longer (and is therefor less efficient) while protoss abuses chokes. A lot of the maps now are essentially bases connected by open space because balancing the maps with terran in mind makes things hard work. Would it really be terrible to have some maps balanced for specific matchups? IE an amazing zvp map that sucks if a terran is on it? (assumign that this z push really is uncounterable by pure macro, comp choices and scouting) | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On April 08 2012 08:24 imareaver3 wrote: Tails has only been in Code A twice, and never made Code S. Nestea won GSL three times. I don't think the results of those games prove anything about whether or not the build is holdable. I never said the results meant anything. I said the way Nestea played is important. No matter who his opponent is, no matter what he does. I don't think anything in the world could save a protoss facing this style when somebody like Nestea executes it. I mean what are you supposed to do? The only player I've ever seen hold this kind of attack + followup aggression was HerO against ZenexLife, but well... you gotta watch that game, it took the best micro I've ever seen in sc2 to hold it. I'm just gonna throw a few things out there that people have tried. 1) More immortals. 2) Void Rays. 3) Mass Gateway units + tons of cannons All those are strong but it's really obvious why those are not enough. I think the best way to hold is a lot of immortals + a lot of sentries and cannons whenever you can afford them. On some maps you're just screwed though. | ||
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Qyntus Decimus
Netherlands9 Posts
Why is that build/style not discussed here? It isn't a 2 base all-in right? I've not lost a game yet using this build however I'm only playing silv-plat zergs so that doesn't count for much. I'm just wondering if this would work on your guys level? | ||
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Rigorous
74 Posts
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On April 08 2012 11:05 Qyntus Decimus wrote: I've had a lot of succes with doing a build from Her0 (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287970). Its basically a FFE with a zealot +1 timing push. Why is that build/style not discussed here? It isn't a 2 base all-in right? I've not lost a game yet using this build however I'm only playing silv-plat zergs so that doesn't count for much. I'm just wondering if this would work on your guys level? It's not reliable as all zergs know how to defend it well. If the zerg defends well, you either have to allin or you'll end up behind if you did anything else. On April 08 2012 11:10 Rigorous wrote: I beat the stephano style all the time with a 2 base all in. It's a blink/immo/sentry build that I have posted in my guide...ILikePho's Protoss Hand Book. Try it out...works like a charm. I have a stephanoish style replay posted as well. Don't self-advertise, especially if you aren't familiar with the thread and don't have anything constructive to add. | ||
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Qyntus Decimus
Netherlands9 Posts
On April 08 2012 11:23 NrGmonk wrote: It's not reliable as all zergs know how to defend it well. If the zerg defends well, you either have to allin or you'll end up behind if you did anything else. So soon I will know the pleasure of the immortal-sentry-micro-struggle-to-take-my-third-base-frustration you guys are having now  . I will be watching this thread carefully. | ||
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Rigorous
74 Posts
On April 08 2012 11:23 NrGmonk wrote: QUOTE] Don't self-advertise, especially if you aren't familiar with the thread and don't have anything constructive to add. I'm sorry Monk? I don't really care that you are a blue poster, and I really think you are out of line here... so mod you can temp ban me if you want. I am offering a specific guide and a specific replay that counters the 12 min roach max. How is that not constructive? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
On April 08 2012 11:40 Rigorous wrote: I'm sorry Monk? I don't really care that you are a blue poster, and I really think you are out of line here... so mod you can temp ban me if you want. I am offering a specific guide and a specific replay that counters the 12 min roach max. How is that not constructive? The whole thread is about a long term goal to playing versus the Stephano build. No one has been talking about all-ins because everyone already sees that Stephano rarely ever loses to all ins. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On April 08 2012 11:40 Rigorous wrote: I'm sorry Monk? I don't really care that you are a blue poster, and I really think you are out of line here... so mod you can temp ban me if you want. I am offering a specific guide and a specific replay that counters the 12 min roach max. How is that not constructive? The common immortal allin is allin; it is an allin that zergs currently have trouble with, but it's still an allin. Just because you have a 100% win rate vs "stephano" builds at your level doesn't mean it's the answer or even close to the answer. JYP tried it twice today himself vs Stephano and Stephano held and crushed him both times with roaches. Oz tried it vs Scarlet and Scarlet held with a standard 3 hatch opening into delayed hydra. So thus it's far from a counter. Even if it were a "counter", a common theme of the thread is how not to rely on coin-flip allins to win games and play protoss with a more consistent style. Finally, it has been suggested multiple times in this thread, so it's nothing new. Someone even wrote a guide on it before you did. I appreciate your contribution to the forums, but your previous post was just misplaced in this thread. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
That might keep the recurring Immo/Sentry all-in and Double Robo to 3rd posts down. | ||
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Ncage
United States91 Posts
To actually contribute to the thread @ Qyntus Decimus: It has been discussed. A lot. The thing is that a +1 zealot timing hits in a window between 7:50 - 8:10 (people are talking about 7:10 zealot pressure are going gate first, which is different than Her0 build you're talking about) The build isn't bad. In fact, I love it. The issue is that Zergs can hold it off very easily now with a max of 60 drones at 8 mins. If you're FFEing at 8 mins you will have around 50 probes if you've been very generous with your CB. The issue isn't the +1 zealot pressure, it's that the common idea of this thread is that you need a 3rd base to be able to economically compete with a 200/200 12 mins zerg and +1 zealot pressue doesn't take a 3rd fast enough. | ||
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Rigorous
74 Posts
Thanks for the replys. Just to be clear, my all-in is not just immo/sentry. It's with blink as well and +2 attack / +1 armor that hits at 12-12:30. The standard comp is 6 sentry / 3immo and countless blink stalkers at 12-12:30. Starts with prism harass as well and usually you will get at least 5+ drones plus lost mining time by ff the mineral line. I beat maxed roach armies all the time...it requires good ff and good blink. and you have 8 gates to reinforce which matches the zerg production capability as long as your first engagement goes well. My build transitions well against muta play, because instead of all-inning, I can take a third because I have blink. | ||
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AshenCZ
Czech Republic46 Posts
I think people should understand that after this time of playing SC2, there simply won't be a safe strategy to go every game because it will get more and more complex and reaction based. I don't see any point in trying to find a supersafe strategy vs everything, just try to find a strategy that works against Stephano roaches and keeps you relatively safe (like the 6:30 3rd of WhiteRa) howgh | ||
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