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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
United States8477 Posts
On April 09 2012 02:12 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 02:10 NrGmonk wrote:On April 09 2012 02:03 See.Blue wrote:
OK, I'm purely talking loosely but what about heavy air vs mass roach? Something along the lines of:
FFE w/ 2 SG
Core goes WG, Hallu (and maybe 1 sent to use it with for scouting), +1 Air weps
Standard timing on third with extra cannons
Pump zeal void
Show a few voids for usual harass, dickery at their third, snipe any ovies you can etc, but mass them at home pumping zeals and cannons with excess minerals. The idea would be to use hallu to see when the roaches begin to move out on the map, and pounce then with all your voids. Once they get charged 7 +1 voids will kill a roach in less than a second, the idea would be use the voids midmap to weaken as much as possible, then use zealot/cannon/simcity at base to hold out long enough for voids to slaughter kill the roaches.
Thats the idea at least, what I'm more interested in is why that's NOT feasible. There really needs to be a disclaimer at the start of this thread, preventing people from suggesting immortal all-in, double robo, and double stargate. None of these work. If your opponent makes mutas or hydras vs 7 voidrays, you automatically lose. Alright calm yourself a little. All I wanted was an explanation of why this didn't work, if it IS just the potential for a tech switch then fine.
It's more that it's a blind build that doesn't work if both:
1.Your opponent didn't scout it.
2. Your opponent blind went for this mass roach style.
Nothing against you.
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I've had some succes with ranged's build, but even with that I've lost a lot to roachmaxes lately. If the opponent is good and splits his roaches well it's close to impossible to defend imo 
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Well that went swimmingly 
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Nice supply block by NesTea @ 110 food ... attack came at 12:30.
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On April 09 2012 04:29 See.Blue wrote:Well that went swimmingly
Nestea hit with burrowed movement at 14:30. It seemed a bit delayed and allowed more immortals to be out.
He poked at 1230 to 1300 without burrowed movement though.
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hmm did he win only because roach burrow fail?
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On April 09 2012 04:30 MuseMike wrote:Nestea hit with burrowed movement at 14:30. It seemed a bit delayed and allowed more immortals to be out.
Haha thats what I was referring to. Just let the zerg not hit the timing and voila.
Edit:
On April 09 2012 02:34 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 02:12 See.Blue wrote:On April 09 2012 02:10 NrGmonk wrote:On April 09 2012 02:03 See.Blue wrote:
OK, I'm purely talking loosely but what about heavy air vs mass roach? Something along the lines of:
FFE w/ 2 SG
Core goes WG, Hallu (and maybe 1 sent to use it with for scouting), +1 Air weps
Standard timing on third with extra cannons
Pump zeal void
Show a few voids for usual harass, dickery at their third, snipe any ovies you can etc, but mass them at home pumping zeals and cannons with excess minerals. The idea would be to use hallu to see when the roaches begin to move out on the map, and pounce then with all your voids. Once they get charged 7 +1 voids will kill a roach in less than a second, the idea would be use the voids midmap to weaken as much as possible, then use zealot/cannon/simcity at base to hold out long enough for voids to slaughter kill the roaches.
Thats the idea at least, what I'm more interested in is why that's NOT feasible. There really needs to be a disclaimer at the start of this thread, preventing people from suggesting immortal all-in, double robo, and double stargate. None of these work. If your opponent makes mutas or hydras vs 7 voidrays, you automatically lose. Alright calm yourself a little. All I wanted was an explanation of why this didn't work, if it IS just the potential for a tech switch then fine. It's more that it's a blind build that doesn't work if both: 1.Your opponent didn't scout it. 2. Your opponent blind went for this mass roach style. Nothing against you.
Ah cheers, that makes a lot of sense. Sorry for being snappy as well 
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I think we can all learn something from that game, +2 and immortal spam beats this !! Even with burrow.
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On April 09 2012 04:30 scsnow wrote:
Nice supply block by NesTea @ 110 food ... attack came at 12:30.
I think he still might have held. He would only have ~1 less immortal.
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Squirtle was safe from that regardless. So much sentry energy, so many immortals, and perfect sim city.
Also note Nestea got supply blocked because squirtle hunted overlords.
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On April 09 2012 04:29 See.Blue wrote:Well that went swimmingly
Well played.
+ Show Spoiler +Squirtle laughing all over it...funny how a 10 minute 3rd seems late compared to what some of us have been trying. Yet it is still relatively well-timed.
One robo did the trick and he was careful to scout that Nestea was really going mass roach.
The weakness of the mass roach seems to be the lack of higher tier tech units if you lose the army.
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On April 09 2012 04:30 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:30 MuseMike wrote:On April 09 2012 04:29 See.Blue wrote:Well that went swimmingly Nestea hit with burrowed movement at 14:30. It seemed a bit delayed and allowed more immortals to be out. Haha thats what I was referring to. Just let the zerg not hit the timing and voila. Edit: Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 02:34 NrGmonk wrote:On April 09 2012 02:12 See.Blue wrote:On April 09 2012 02:10 NrGmonk wrote:On April 09 2012 02:03 See.Blue wrote:
OK, I'm purely talking loosely but what about heavy air vs mass roach? Something along the lines of:
FFE w/ 2 SG
Core goes WG, Hallu (and maybe 1 sent to use it with for scouting), +1 Air weps
Standard timing on third with extra cannons
Pump zeal void
Show a few voids for usual harass, dickery at their third, snipe any ovies you can etc, but mass them at home pumping zeals and cannons with excess minerals. The idea would be to use hallu to see when the roaches begin to move out on the map, and pounce then with all your voids. Once they get charged 7 +1 voids will kill a roach in less than a second, the idea would be use the voids midmap to weaken as much as possible, then use zealot/cannon/simcity at base to hold out long enough for voids to slaughter kill the roaches.
Thats the idea at least, what I'm more interested in is why that's NOT feasible. There really needs to be a disclaimer at the start of this thread, preventing people from suggesting immortal all-in, double robo, and double stargate. None of these work. If your opponent makes mutas or hydras vs 7 voidrays, you automatically lose. Alright calm yourself a little. All I wanted was an explanation of why this didn't work, if it IS just the potential for a tech switch then fine. It's more that it's a blind build that doesn't work if both: 1.Your opponent didn't scout it. 2. Your opponent blind went for this mass roach style. Nothing against you. Ah cheers, that makes a lot of sense. Sorry for being snappy as well
Squirtle did nothing to stop Nestea from hitting the timing. He supply blocked himself. Also, not sure if he should have researched movement earlier?
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Yeah but Nestea got suply blocked and remember that Z only 1a or move stop, and P have to micro ff in 2 fronts, AND still you have to win both fronts consistently, you can't trade cose that favors Z.
Flawless play from Squirtle ^^
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On April 09 2012 04:32 skatbone wrote:Well played. + Show Spoiler +Squirtle laughing all over it...funny how a 10 minute 3rd seems late compared to what some of us have been trying. Yet it is still relatively well-timed.
One robo did the trick and he was careful to scout that Nestea was really going mass roach.
The weakness of the mass roach seems to be the lack of higher tier tech units if you lose the army.
Yeah and if you miss read and he goes hydra, col is so delayed its scary.
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On April 09 2012 04:33 MuseMike wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:30 See.Blue wrote:On April 09 2012 04:30 MuseMike wrote:On April 09 2012 04:29 See.Blue wrote:Well that went swimmingly Nestea hit with burrowed movement at 14:30. It seemed a bit delayed and allowed more immortals to be out. Haha thats what I was referring to. Just let the zerg not hit the timing and voila. Edit: On April 09 2012 02:34 NrGmonk wrote:On April 09 2012 02:12 See.Blue wrote:On April 09 2012 02:10 NrGmonk wrote:On April 09 2012 02:03 See.Blue wrote:
OK, I'm purely talking loosely but what about heavy air vs mass roach? Something along the lines of:
FFE w/ 2 SG
Core goes WG, Hallu (and maybe 1 sent to use it with for scouting), +1 Air weps
Standard timing on third with extra cannons
Pump zeal void
Show a few voids for usual harass, dickery at their third, snipe any ovies you can etc, but mass them at home pumping zeals and cannons with excess minerals. The idea would be to use hallu to see when the roaches begin to move out on the map, and pounce then with all your voids. Once they get charged 7 +1 voids will kill a roach in less than a second, the idea would be use the voids midmap to weaken as much as possible, then use zealot/cannon/simcity at base to hold out long enough for voids to slaughter kill the roaches.
Thats the idea at least, what I'm more interested in is why that's NOT feasible. There really needs to be a disclaimer at the start of this thread, preventing people from suggesting immortal all-in, double robo, and double stargate. None of these work. If your opponent makes mutas or hydras vs 7 voidrays, you automatically lose. Alright calm yourself a little. All I wanted was an explanation of why this didn't work, if it IS just the potential for a tech switch then fine. It's more that it's a blind build that doesn't work if both: 1.Your opponent didn't scout it. 2. Your opponent blind went for this mass roach style. Nothing against you. Ah cheers, that makes a lot of sense. Sorry for being snappy as well Squirtle did nothing to stop Nestea from hitting the timing. He supply blocked himself. Also, not sure if he should have researched movement earlier?
-_- i was being facetious. Nestea lost that game not squirtle winning, sadly.
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Roaches are not supply efficient. Of course if you stay maxed on them for 2 minutes before attacking the protoss will then have very good chance of stopping it.
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United States8477 Posts
On April 08 2012 23:06 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 22:39 TechSc2 wrote:In TvZ marine tank is a safe go to build, why? marines handle lings/muta's well, Tanks handle banelings/infestors well. So why doesn't protoss get this type of build? We do, it's called mass blink stalker + 3-6 colossus. The issue is to get them in the right ratio compared to what zerg can churn out in the same time. Secondly, the terran composition is gas light compared to protoss units, they are cheaper and more refresh-friendly. We do have a strong all-around build, but it is less accessible compared to the terran one. EDIT: I think the strength of the terran ball is the effort that terran players put into keeping it alive, because it is much more fragile compared to the protoss ball. If protoss players put more effort into keeping our deathball alive, then I think zergs would have more problems than right now.
Until about 9 months ago, Terrans too were relying on 2 base timings to deal with zerg. As zergs began learning how to deal with all of the various and numerous timings, Terrans' success with those timings began to drop. However, eventually Terrans learned how to play "greedy" but safe macro builds that allow the Terran to keep up with econ. Two examples of these builds include:
- Reactor hellion->cc->cc->Make 4 hellions->tanks
- 1 rax cc->double gas->reactor hellions->banshee->cc
This is the natural progression of a matchup. Once 1 base allins have been figured out, Terrans began transitioning into 2 base all-ins and 2+ base macro play. Onces 2 base allins are figured out, Terrans transitioned into more 3+ base play(I hesitate to call anything 3 base allin, but some game plans are allin off of 3 bases). These 3 cc macro builds are now the standard of how terrans play TvZ.
PvZ, on the other hand, has been lagging behind the TvZ metagame for quite a bit as 2 base all-ins are still by far the most common strategy. Now, I could blame this on a variety of things such as:
- The inflexibility of FFE and how Zerg can get a free 3rd.
- The fact that Protoss units work better in balls and thus are less effective non all-in pressure. For example, marines, hellions and medivacs work much better individually than sentires/stalkers/immortals.
- Nexii can't float like CCs.
Now as Zerg began figuring out all the 2 base all-in timings (and as they figure out the most recent immortal/warp prism all-in), Protoss all-ins will begin to get gimmicky and coin flippy, either relying on your opponent not scouting/recognizing it or relying on him not knowing how to defend. The next logical step is 3 base macro builds.
The problem with current macro PvZ isn't that stalker/colossi can't handle Zerg as well as marine/tank. It's more that Protoss doesn't currently have well-accepted standard solid macro builds that allow them to get enough units to defend a Zerg max. The way Protoss are playing it now, they end up behind if they try to take it to the macro game every time. This is why I suggested faster thirds in order to play a more effective macro game in this thread.
I see the 3 base roach aggression in PvZ as I do the 2 base roach baneling semi all-in in TvZ. It is the main aggression 3 base macro builds have to deal with when they are in their weakest state. As I have said before, I think the keys to defending a 3 base build against this specific roach aggression include: scouting, sim city, cannons, forcefields, macro, unit composition, and army splitting. Anytime I see a Protoss fall to roach spam, he's always missing a few of these points.
- Scouting: A lot of people, even pros, neglect this key point. The thing is pros can, because they can sometimes assume from their opponent what they're going to do. For example, in JYP's recent series versus Stephano, JYP just assumed Stephano would do the same build each game and he was right.
- Sim city: When you can put gateways in sim city, you should; they work just as well, if not better than depots as blockers. In many cases, you can make gateways just to sim city even if you don't need them for protection as they can be more useful in defense than cannons or stalkers for the same price. Tails made this mistake of just putting gateways in his main vs Nestea at IPL and just lost when he had to waste all his forcefields to hold roaches at bay.
- Cannons: Especially behind sim city, roaches cannot focus fire cannons well. Cannons+ sentries is also a more efficient use of minerals/gas for defense than stalkers
- Forcefields: This is just something people have to work on. Every Protoss besides MC I've seen use more forcefields than they have to in a given situation. Protoss in general just need to get better with this basic Protoss skill. Sim city also lessens the amount of forcefields you have to use. You also can devote forcefields into trapping and killing roaches instead of blocking roaches out of your base.
- Macro: Your opponent has an efficient macro build, that with decent macro, maxes between 11:30 and 12 minutes; you should have good macro build as well, backed by sufficient macro. A good macro build gets your 3rd as fast as possible so that when the roaches do hit, you have the economy to back up your defense. Spending all your money, especially under roach pressure, is just mechanics.
- Unit composition: Sentries are the most important unit by far. Voidrays can work, especially when backed up by sim city/forcefieds to allow them to charge; modern protosses who rely on voidrays to hold off attacks usually get 2. Immortals also obviously work and are the best unit you can make vs roaches. Blink stalkers, on the other hand, aren't as helpful if you're relying on primarily sim city/forcefields/cannons to defend. This doesn't mean they're bad, as you usually need them to defend possible mutas if you didn't open stargate.
- Army splitting: As you're defending 2 positions, you will need to split your army into 2 parts. There are a few things you can do to more efficiently and correctly place your troops. First is scouting. An obs/voidray/phoenix/hallucination in the area outside your base between your natural/3rd. Your sim city also allows you to delay the roaches, allowing you to reposition units.
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Awesome post Monk, It should be put up on the frontpage as it sums up the issues\progress you've been making.
I am certain that this is just a hurdle we have to get past in order to evolve our gameplan. Maps might have a say in how easy defending thirds will be.
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It simply isn't good advice for protoss.
- not being able to lift off is huge, as it means roaches and lings can always trade for value directly against your economy.
- if you are delaying their natural expo properly, they will have been forced to build enough lings out to scout the entire map + prevent any scouting on your part until you have a flying scout. (so no scouting until around 9 minutes)
- gateways are in fact good for sim city but only if you build extra gateways. This is great for zealot+archon builds but terrible for blink stalker builds. Zealot Stalker won't hold, though. You need some kind of ranged DPS behind the wall, or you're just delaying the inevitable (and protoss does not have enough DPS without committing to losing the air war). Furthermore, walls hurt you more than your opponent. They're pretty much only good for making sure that lings don't get in your main, your forcefields ought to be handling everything else.
- even sim citied cannons only trade equally for cost with roaches. so if you somehow have enough cannons to hold off the roach, the Zerg should just expand more.
- you cannot get your third up at the same time as a zerg unless they're completely failing at scouting. Zerg can allow protoss to get a third, if they feel they can still win. But they can (and should) deny it. Protoss does not have this option: There is no way to deny the zerg their third.
- Sentries only are any good at chokes. If you try to wall off in the middle of the map, the zerg just runs away and you have to go around the long way to his base. And sentries do not help once the zerg has closed with you. Worse, when you approach his base, there will be creep there, allowing the zerg to target fire and kill your sentires with ease. And once the sentires are down, three queens will handle any VRs, and roach+ling utterly destroys immortal+zealot. Muta-ling beats both options, and if you somehow have archons, it's easy to spread the Mutas enough to take them or pick them off with roaches or pick off any immortals+zealots on the other side of the archons. And you better pray there are no infestors around. So no, there's no unit composition that will work. You can at best be equal, and usually are much worse.
- While you do need to split your army, you absolutely MUST NOT split them equally. You need to hold your third with exclusively sentries + anti-air + simcity (though you don't want to let any units up the ramp if you can help it). Your main you will keep your immortals and the rest of your anti-air. This is because of the way protoss armies work, in large numbers. You have the hammer in your base, and the rock at your third: BUT, most maps won't allow this to work, and it is difficult enough to try and micro zealot+archon+immortal against ling/roach without trying to do it in two separate groups.
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EPT
