TL Mafia L - Page 44

On January 14 2012 11:14 Toadesstern wrote:
nooo, I was considering voting for you, sandroba or wbg at this point in time and you had the lead

On January 14 2012 11:20 VisceraEyes wrote:
No Toad, vote for me! Your vote would be absolutely cherished....like a daisy growing in Antarctica or some shit.

On January 14 2012 09:54 VisceraEyes wrote:


What does this quote even mean? Is this some sort of veiled attack on Palmar? What purpose does this post serve?

On January 14 2012 10:56 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Mattchew, what form of communication did you use with Foolishness? Would you mind sharing the logs? (Since foolishness thinks they make you look town, or that's what I'm inferring)

@Bum: I got the feeling from Cyber_Cheese that he just wanted to stir shit up all day long. A lot of his posts look to me like they're asking questions or making statements that someone could easily grab on to and start a pointless argument. Not generally conducive to a good town atmosphere.

Original Message From Foolishness:
I'm still catching up, but as I've already said in the thread, Bill Murray is someone who we can keep under control, and if he's mafia it will become apparent rather early (if for no other reason he's an incredibly active player).

Yes, well, there's not much point in hiding it from you. You've never played a game with me before, I highly doubt your mafia team (assuming you're mafia of course) would authorize you to mason me day 1. If the mafia wanted to mason me, I'm sure they'd pick one of their more elite members (no offense) or someone who has played with me a lot. Especially since they would be paranoid I'd figure you out. Also remember the mafia get to choose who among them is a mason.

You don't want to post that because that gives away that you're a mason. If you don't die that night you will die the next night. What other motivation would you have for saying that right before the day post unless you were in contact with me?

Yeah, if you really want me to breadcrumb who you should mason with I can, but it be better for you to just go with your instinct. Easier for me to just give you a suggestion right before night ends anyways.

Original Message From Foolishness:
Okay I have to run for the evening so I'm making my post now.

On January 14 2012 11:31 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Hey mattchew, why are you ignoring me?

And don't call yourself confirmed.

On January 14 2012 11:13 bumatlarge wrote:


EBWOP: Forgive this post, I got angry. If you really think I'd play this game exactly the way I would play insane mafia 2 where I was the police chief and the mayor, and you think someone here would have done a better job in the same position, then fine.

I'm opting out of the race. I'm clearly not meant to be mayor on TL ever again.

That said, Slardar, the strength of the mayor is how much ressure is put on them by deciding the lynch. Scum can run bullshit campaigns if all they need to live up to is having +3 voting power and night protection. Scum mayor's get massive amounts of flak very quickly because it becomes apparent rather quickly that they don't have town's best interest.

On January 14 2012 11:34 VisceraEyes wrote:
Wiggles go vote for me right now and don't move your vote DUDE

I'll be the bestest Mayor Liquidia has EVER SEEN.

On January 14 2012 06:40 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Town masons have the potential to catch scum. Dts have the potential have finding scum. Vigi's have the potential to shooting scum. Jacks could do all 3.

Of the group, masons rely on their ability to read people and read posts to get a good view of someone. Catching someone in pms is not as easy as everyone thinks it is and historically towns have town far more retarded things there than good.

On January 28 2011 06:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Private Messaging

This feature has been in a fair number of TL games. It is also an amazing tool if used properly. However, if it is not used properly, the mafia will abuse it and potentially win. They are also a function if used improperly will cause people to feel left out and like they don’t matter as players. Pm’s can and do make people elitist in games. IF Pm’s are allowed in a game they should be used properly. Role fishing, small analysis groups, alignment testing.

Role fishing is straightforward so I will not go into it at this time.
Small analysis groups. These groups need not be large, as you only need a few heads to flesh out analysis on people. It also means that if a red is in your group, it is easier to catch them, and it keeps the other groups safe from infiltration.

Alignment testing. This is posting in a way to let you carefully analyze reactions. Townies are more inclined to answer in one way and mafia/blues another. Sometimes this will be obvious such as catching someone lying to you in pm’s or lying in thread. Other times this will be noticing subtle word choices.

Regardless of how you opt to use the tool, if you do not feel comfortable in your ability to use them properly do not use them and play the game via the thread. Ask for detail from Ace on this, as he dislikes the PM feature.

On January 14 2012 05:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote:



I am fine with either it, or having town just say "we ignore all pms that arent host pms"

Making every mason accountable / making them useless to prevent manipulation seems the best play at the moment.

making them all claim however is the optimal play, it may out the group of us, but it also prevents mafia from using their ability without being in the spotlight.

On January 14 2012 11:39 Jackal58 wrote:


I'm sorry Bum. I had no intention of pissing you off. You are one of my favorite people on here.

On January 14 2012 11:49 bumatlarge wrote:


Aw, you're one of my favorites too. But prepare your anus if you bring that up again.

I'd probably vote for someone who was going to lynch cyber_cheese, or explains a better candidate. I don't see why ciryandor or palmar are scum over cheese.

On January 14 2012 11:49 bumatlarge wrote:


Aw, you're one of my favorites too. But prepare your anus if you bring that up again.

I'd probably vote for someone who was going to lynch cyber_cheese, or explains a better candidate. I don't see why ciryandor or palmar are scum over cheese.

On January 14 2012 11:46 Protactinium wrote:
Ah an interesting roleclaim. However, there is much more to this than people are getting at.

The PM debate is an old one. Everyone has their opinion on whether it is town or mafia favored, and even through out-of-game debates, this is a highly controversial topic. If it can' be solved out of game, there's absolutely no way we are going to come up with a consensus in game. BC defends his claim by saying that getting everyone to contribute on this polarizing topic will help us get early reads on players. But if we can't agree on anything out of game, you won't really be able to say that someone saying "PMs good!" or "PMs bad!" will tell us anything about their alignment. Anyone can pretty much say whatever they like since they are under no obligation or pressure to have an opinion one way or the other on this issue.

While it is debatable whether PMs are "good" or "bad" for town, it shouldn't be too controversial to say that PMs are elitist. They inherently favor good players who can make use of the extra channel of communication. When you are talking to someone in PMs, always keep in mind what you think the other person wants from you. Are they trying to convince you of a certain point of view? Are they trying to get you to claim? As long as you can keep in mind that the PM initiator may be attempting to manipulate you and don't give away information loosely, PMs really aren't that scary.

What exactly has BC been discussing? Primarily, he has divided his attention between defending his claim, responding to attacks on the potnetial that he is red, and asking for "discussion" while pushing a particularly biased point of view. More clearly stated, he proposes a seemingly open-ended question, and answers it himself to make it appear like there was a town consensus behind it.

If you look at the thread, the only real contribution to the discussion that DOESN'T come from BC is sandroba's suggestion that all the masons roleclaim. And notice BC's bias when discussing the topic. In almost all his posts, BC paints PMs in a bad light. He only seriously acknowledges that town masons have the potential to catch scum, but in the same post, quickly says that "its harder than you think":



But lets look at a section of what BC has to say a bout PMs in his guide "TL Town Breakdown/Analysis":



Quite a contradictory opinion from what he states in game. The essence of BC's out of game stance is that: "PMs are like playing with fire. Could be insanely awesome if used correctly, but could burn you if you don't. If you don't feel comfortable, don't use them". This is quite a stark contrast to his position in this game, where he seriously downplays the usefulness of town PMs, and does a bit of fear mongering in emphasizing how the mafia can screw you over with PMs. Is it possible that BC has changed his stance? I doubt it, but it certainly is possible. So lets dig deeper here.

How is BC pushing his opinion? He does it subtly, and attempts to dissociate it from his personal point of view. In the beginning of his campaign to discuss masons, BC heavily uses the word "discuss" or "discussion", asks how "we as a whole" want to deal with masons, emphasizes that this is a discussion everyone should be weighing in on, and attempts to get the community involved in the discussion. He doesn't outright present his personal point of view, and frames the discussion so that it appears free and open-ended. But pretty much injects his own opinion into the discussion whenver possible.

His initial point is that mafia masons are dangerous and that town needs to have a plan to deal with that.
When asked for an example of PMs in action, BC drags in an example where he manipulated VE to do pro-mafia actions in just 1-2 PMs. (Reinforcing his stance on "PMs are scary")
When asked behind why he thinks a mass claim will interfere with the mafia masons, he proposes in the hypothetical that if town agrees to not use PMs, then it shuts down mafia masons.
A few posts later, he reemphasizes that "by making the town decide, vocally, now, we force everyone to have an opinion." While this is fine and dandy, really he is the one calling the shots here.
When Cyber_Cheese suggests that we let masons use their discretion and suggests that smart town masons could cause the mafia masons to backfire, BC counters with "Mafia masons have the experience of an entire team to work manipulate someone", subtly pushing his opinion that PMs should be shunned.

When asked about his opinion on a mason claim, he says he's fine with it, but takes the opportunity to inject more of his "ignore all PMs" idea into the conversation (notice that nobody else has been saying "lets ignore PMs").

BC is pushing the anti-PM agenda, in a way that is quite subtle. He constantly brings in reference to "the town needs to decide", or "this is a very important discussion that everyone needs to weigh in on", while he is really the one dominating the conversation. In other words, he is injecting his mafia bias into the discussion while attempting to pass it off as a town discussion or collective town decision.

Here's something BC didn't tell you. As he has told me in the past (out of game): "keep in mind as red i rarely pm", and "my heavy pm use is town play".

Now what about the "spotlight factor" brought up by Meapak? BC putting himself in the spotlight is nothing unusual, both for his mafia and town play. If you've read past games, think of BC's style as much the same as Ace's. As stated above, red BC doesn't use a PM heavy style. He uses a style that focuses on thread control, shutting down serious opposition through arguments and generally trashing the thread. BC claiming mason does not give him any +town points in my book. The general heuristic of "mafia want to avoid the spotlight" doesn't apply to BC, who is an experienced mafia player and has proven that he is well capable of taking the spotlight as red.

So what is the scenario for BC being red and pushing his mason claim? BC is in fact red, and can use the mason power (chooses it for himself early in the day). As a town mason would, BC picks a mason target and starts talking to them. Once he gets the town to agree to ban masons, he is off the hook, and doesn't have to worry about PMs anymore. More specifically, he doesn't have to worry about town PMs. Like stated before, mafia BC plays a powerhouse thread control style. By banning PMs, BC doesn't lose out on much (he admits he isn't a heavy PM user), and nerfs Foolishness, sandroba, and my abilities to play a PM centric game (which we are known for). And that's what is the difference between this game and XLII (the game he refers to when he says he dominates with only 1-2 PMs). Foolishness and I are playing in this game, and are real threats. BC wants to shut down PMs before it starts, and he doesn't have to give up much information or lie at all in order to do it.

Furthermore, he has not followed up on his campaign promise: "I will question, analyze and call out all those who play in what I view as bad town/mafia like. (I have already done this with foolishness, he knows better)."

Ok, so maybe he called out Foolishness yesterday, but where is the scumhunting today? Its non-existent, because BC is too busy derailing the thread with mason discussions instead of scumhunting.

What is even more interesting is the timing of his initial claim post. It comes an hourish after my second post against Ciryandor, which conveniently most people except for sandroba and sheth have ignored.

1. BloodyC0bbler derailed today's discussion onto the irrelevant, highly controversial, and unsolvable PM debate.
2. Because the community is split over the PM debate, discussing it tells us nothing about alignment even if people contribute to the discussion. In other words, BC is overexaggerating the importance of this discussion.
3. BloodyC0bbler is masking his intentions and his clear anti-PM agenda, [b]which is inconsistent with his previous (out of game) stance on PMs).
4. BloodyC0bbler is trying to frame the discussion as an open discussion, when he is clearly injecting his personal bias.
5. BloodyC0bbler's actions are completely consistent with his mafia style, which is to spread chaos and control the thread atmoshere and discussion.
6. BloodyC0bbler's actions are not consistent with his campaign promise to analyze and call out people. He has done none of that today

BloodyC0bbler is mafia. If you vote for me I will lynch him.

On January 14 2012 11:46 wherebugsgo wrote:


shut up about being mayor and start doing something useful.

This is why I hate mayoral elections; they bring day 1 to shit by muddying everything up and allowing scum to just prance around happily doing whatever the hell they want.

Stop giving the mafia fields of flowers to frisk around in. Start scumhunting.

Give me your opinion on Palmar to begin with.

On January 14 2012 11:56 VisceraEyes wrote:


I was starting to think he's not a good lynch for today, but honestly he's been more useless than his 'useless D1 town' meta would suggest, so I think he's probably scum...he's not hiding it or anything. I'll never understand what his deal is - the thing about playing scum is you just play like a fucking townie, and we all know how much he LOVES playing town...fucking dumb.

But yeah, I think he's probably scum, but it's too early in the day to say if he's a good lynch or not (he might bring the pain here in a few hours, who the fuck knows?) I'm ABSOLUTELY down with killing it with fire if he doesn't step it up before the lynch tomorrow.

Where the shit were you like 8 hours ago when I was having this conversation with Palmar? I could have used the backup. My 'g' key is fucking broken.

On January 14 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote:

I am running for Mayor.


I believe you should vote for me because I am confirmed town. How? Let me explain.

I am a mason who used my first "masoning" on Foolishness. In the past I have proven not great at this game both as mafia and as town. I also have not been a good listener to scum team advice when it is given to me. So the odds of a scum team picking me to be their mason is slim to none.
Also, the fact that I pm'd arguably the best townie player in the game should prove in itself that I am town. I am not a vet or a well regarded player, why would any scum team even consider the thought of letting me either
a. (if foolishness is also scum) claim to PM one of their best players and spotlight him
or
b. (if foolishness is town) let me PM one of the best townies and maybe get myself caught.

This is logic.

Why should we vote you if you are bad?

A. I am confirmed town. This is by far the best reason to elect me.
B. I would become a roleblock immune, mason, with either 3 votes (mayor) or a jailing ability.
C. The fact that I am a mason allows me to solicit advice on my actions behind closed doors from veteran players. While I obviously will be extremely skeptical in everything they tell me, it is better than a Mayor acting purely on his own. I will not be manipulated because I will present the options and ask their opinions on them. I will not be asking broad questions, yet specific questions to leave little to no room for scum influence.

What is your stance on Mayoral Issues.

I will be active. I can read and respond while at work. Monday - Friday I should be on and reading from 13:30 GMT (+00:00) to 04:00 GMT (+00:00). Saturday and sunday I will be reading and responding while watching football but as the day progresses I will probably be getting more and more drunk, around 03:00 GMT (+00:00).

The standard obligatory "I suck at scum"

I currently am looking at 3 candidates for the day 1 lynch and will be open to discussion on all 3.
Those 3 are (in no particular order) Ciryandor, Mapco, Chaosquo is also good.

I am now open for questions for the next half hour or so before company arrives at my house and I will be offline until 16:00 GMT (+00:00)

On January 14 2012 11:59 wherebugsgo wrote:


I was asleep 8 hours ago. I stayed up till like 5:30 lol. (8 hours ago was 11 am here)

also Palmar's day 1 meta as town is not be useless. It's establish himself as town. He's done nothing so far to do that. That's a common theme among his scum games; on day 1 he keeps posting one liners and not doing anything.