EPTPurgatory Mafia - Page 24
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
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Refallen
452 Posts
Because right now, I am much more comfortable in lynching risk.nuke than Palmar. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
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Cwave
Netherlands313 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
Blazinghand Bluelightz Dirkzor(?) Grackaroni HarbingerOfDoom layabout Tyrran xsksc Zephirdd To my knowledge they (we) are all relatively new to TL mafia having played a small number of games each. It seems highly unlikely that any of us will have read a large enough number of games to have strong understanding of any other players meta. If you do not have a strong understanding of a certain players meta you cannot use your own judgement of that players meta against them. You cannot compare their play to your idea of their meta and reach a conclusion. Instead you are reliant on other players assessment of that player meta and how their play this game is supposedly incriminating. As town you should be reliant on your own judgements and reach your own conclusions and you should not vote entirely because somebody else has a reason that you cannot verify*. Furthermore despite my limited experience of your various playstyles even i was able to spot an error in Wiggles "meta analysis Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. On January 04 2012 23:24 xsksc wrote: Hi guys. First multi-factional game for me as well, not really sure how we should proceed strategy-wise. Lynching an angel day 1 would obviously be ideal, although getting a demon is definitely better than a townie. Yeah, and then he went on to be one of the only useful townies that actually read the game and used his brain. Syllo, if Palmar does decide to mess around on day one again, would it not be better to wait and see how he behaves later on (like in TLXVIII), rather than just lynching him? Apparently he often trolls day1 anyway? If players who feel that they know his meta disagree about what his meta is how can i or the others trust them? Simply, voting for a player based soley on meta that does not come from your own judgements instead of voting based on your own judgements is either bad town play or scum play. Mr. Wiggles is encouraging people to vote for bad reasons (from their perspective) since at least half of the players in the thread have an extremely low chance of having solid enough meta on Palmar and Palmar isn't going to vote for himself, then the majority of town cannot justify an entirely meta based case vote on day 1. -Similarly i cannot justify voting based on risk.nuke's meta. -As far as i am concerned Grackaroni doesn't have any points worth considering against HoD. -I also see no case against RoL. Therefore we should go for a proper case with reasons that we can support, instead. We should lynch Grackaroni. *well you could verify it by spending a long time going through past games but i doubt that anyone has the time nor the effort to spare to do so``` ```are footnotes within footnotes better or worse than spoilers within spoilers? | ||
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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
First, before I explain why I want to admit I'm playing really bad Next, before reading this read previous cases on him By: layabout On January 06 2012 03:02 layabout wrote: I would lynch/shoot/violently murder Grackaroni if i had to kill someone now at the beginning he talks about hypotheticals involving roles, serveral players did this and it was largely irrelevant and so cannot really be used in analysis. he then wrote very confusing to be pushing a lynch and saying that a lynch was safe (which implies the existence of reasons why the case is safe but does not offer them) if we paraphrase then including this last bit results in "i think we should lynch a player that i do not think i will be able to get a good read on" lynch to kill scum not to get information here grack suggests using towns KP on a player he doesn't think he can read who hasn't posted more than a couple of lines by this point in the game. It has also already been explained why he shouldn't have suggested BL would be useless The above post seems a lot more reasonable if there are scum goals behind it. it should be self evident this is why this is so, but i will say that most of those statements don't make sense if grack is town. he (kind of) tries to take credit for pressuring BL and takes the blame for "BH taking shit for him" I am pretty sure BH "taking shit" was not because of grack and that grack is possibly trying to "buddy" up with BH and paint himself in a good light for taking blame. + Show Spoiler + this is't particularly incriminating but reading that sentence did bug me There isn't much to analyse but he is a reddest shade of grey in my eyes On January 06 2012 05:26 layabout wrote: Grackaroni: In this post his writes a pile of nothing to call HoD scum. my comments have been italicised Here, he decides that the person that he thinks should die right now, which is equivalent to his best lynch target for now is not HoD but Bluelightz Says he would lynch bluelightz mostly because "there's much less downside to shooting him than a potentially useful town player who I think is scum and there's no way of knowing his allignment unless he takes a stance on something" which is an awful reason to kill a player. votes that we lynch and kill a player other than the player he said he would most like to kill 2minutes earlier this is a glaring contradiction. I cannot understand why he would post such a thing as town. a universe in which those actions make sense would be a universe that sucks big ol' hairy BearBollocks. It seems that he could have decided to vote because Blazinghand told him to do something and he responded by voting, but all i can see is weak/barely even reasoning behind him thinking HoD is scum and nothing of worth to justify a vote. I do not think we should let players vote for such bad reasons. I think the vote is scummy. Does anybody thing his defence in this post is adequate? ( i do not ) So, now i'm going to analyze his post's, also this is long so I have it spoilered + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 01:22 Grackaroni wrote: Let's get started. Since it's instant majority lynch I think we should wait until near the end to vote or at least be aware of how many votes a player has on him before voting. We want the days to last as long as possible so we might as well use all the time that we are given instead of hammering the first scummy person we see. It would be smarter if the Town Channeler banishes people who are likely to be hit n1 instead of aiming to roleblock an angel unless he's very confident about a read. Obviously we want to lynch an angel today to try to reduce the KP but I'm not sure that there is anyway we can tell the difference between demons and angels, at least until their teammates have flipped. Probably later in the game we will have to focus on lynching demons over angels when they've corrupted several townies but We'll talk about that if it comes to that. In this one, he discusses what we should do, and also what the channeler should do, lastly what he think should be doing On January 05 2012 01:37 Grackaroni wrote: For this situation the most important fact is the person's status. If it's a veteran who had a high likelihood of being attacked n1 then he should be checked before lynched. If it is somebody who you wouldn't expect to be attacked lynch him. Sure it's possible that the angel could hold back his shot but it's unlikely for them to do so since they would rather kill the target of their choice than let a random player get lynched(which could even end up as one of their own.) Saying his opinions on what he thinks the Town Blues should do On January 05 2012 02:15 Grackaroni wrote: Hey BH, we meet again  Do you think that Dirkzor would be a good day1 lynch or did you just vote him to check Zbot? Asking BH about why did he vote Dirkzor, there's nothing that here that can shine his alignment though On January 05 2012 02:59 Grackaroni wrote: As you already mentioned the game only started 10 hours ago so I'm sure people would post if they could. If we can't be sure that a player is an angel/demon I think the safe lynch is bluelightz. His play in Student mafia was weak and so far this game he has posted nothing but one liners. Hopefully he will have solid content when he returns but I am not too optimistic. I just don't think I will get a good read on him and he's not somebody I would want at lylo, the only downside to lynching him is that it may not give us as much information as many other lynches. Perhaps he would be a good n1 target for the town demon hunter? His opinions of me. On January 05 2012 03:10 Grackaroni wrote: What I'm saying is that even though I have a null read on him (he hasn't posted anything of value yet) he's not somebody that I would expect much from and could be a liability to the town later in the game. I don't think I'll get a solid read on him as I wasn't able to in student either and he's not somebody I would want in Lylo. The issue is that the last game I played in the town pretty much unanimously agreed that one player was acting scummy and he flipped town leaving the town basically as clueless on day 2 as we were day1. He seems like a solid lynch to me but if he flips town We'll be left with less information than I'd like. I basically answered my question from the end of my last post, he's a good demon hunter target (not like the angels will kill him for us) but maybe not the best for a lynch. Okay, i'll explain the connection of this post with another On January 05 2012 03:21 Grackaroni wrote: I guess you're right there, if he is a demon they could be saved by the transport and if he is an angel he wouldn't die. If he is sent to purgatory I would assume it was done by demons but their intentions are unknown, maybe they want to save him maybe they want to force a mislynch. Opinions on what he thinks what our blues should do. On January 05 2012 08:26 Grackaroni wrote: KK I'm back. I suggested the Bluelightz lynch and it looks like BH took a lot of shit because of me. Bluelightz was a null read and somebody I felt would be anti-town no matter what allignment he is. In this way it is similar to a lurker/inactive lynch, it's a null read but posting one liners can be just as bad for town as lurking. He will be my 2nd choice for lynch If I can't find a target I believe is scummy I will vote for him instead of a lurker lynch. Syllogism was right, In Student Mafia he was a replacement and scum, this is not enough information for me to know that he won't be helpful to town but that was the impression I got from him and he has not done anything to change it thus far. (BH seemed to have gotten the same impression) As for lurkers I'm a bit disturbed that Errandor is the only person getting called out. I have not seen a post from Errandor or RoL and Palmar knows the game started but only posted From what I gather though this is standard for Palmar. These players are veterans so I hope that they will contribute to the game. Luckily the day is 72 hours so we still have plenty of time left. Here again is his opinion's on Me, lurkers,and Palmar On January 05 2012 08:55 Grackaroni wrote: I already explained this though he is my 2nd choice for a lynch over a lurker lynch. Both styles of play are anti-town but we should be lynching scum not just people who are being anti-town. Your case on BL does not prove that he is scum it just says that his actions are anti-town. On January 05 2012 08:55 Grackaroni wrote: I already explained this though he is my 2nd choice for a lynch over a lurker lynch. Both styles of play are anti-town but we should be lynching scum not just people who are being anti-town. Your case on BL does not prove that he is scum it just says that his actions are anti-town. Explaining that I am his 2nd choice for lynching over a lurker. On January 06 2012 04:06 Grackaroni wrote: HarbingerofDoom is my scum pick. He was one of the first people into the game and took a lot of time to comment on the setup. (this is what the majority of his posts are about) At the start of the game he asks for us to give strategies for demons/angels which to me seemed weird from a town perspective and not beneficial to town. In Newbie mini Mafia he was very active and spent a lot of time scum hunting. So far there has been no scumhunting done by him He seems fairly content with lynching a lurker. (Palmar/Errandorr are the only people he's pushed lynches for) Together this paints a picture to me, he is one of the earlier players to sign up, he was here right when the game started, he had the time to post quite a few things about the setup which tells us nothing about his allignment. In another game when he is town he is more active and does a lot of scumhunting but in this game he wants a lurker lynch.(granted it did include some meta with it) He has the time to post but chooses not to. I'll wait for more posts. Okay now, in the other post he said that he would rather lynch Me, but here he say's now he would rather lynch HoD On January 06 2012 04:18 Grackaroni wrote: Defense in bold I don't see much of a difference between my reasoning and BH's reasoning as much as he'd like to deny it. BH took all of his quotes and they only point to him being a bad player not scum. He even goes as far as to say that he wouldn't mind if he is town. His defense to layabout's case On January 06 2012 04:24 Grackaroni wrote: As for the Palmar question I would shoot Bluelightz because he could easily be mafia, there's much less downside to shooting him than a potentially useful town player who I think is scum and there's no way of knowing his allignment unless he takes a stance on something. However the lynch is used for Information as well as killing scum, it wouldn't give the most information but more than I previously thought as a lot of people seem split on whether he is scum or not. Question for Syllogism, Why do you dislike lynching BlueLightz? Is it because you have gotten a town read on him, (if yes plz do share), or was it just because of the way I presented his lynch. And again, here he says he now would like to lynch me. First he says that he would lynch me then HoD then he wants to lynch me again. On January 06 2012 04:26 Grackaroni wrote: fine. ##Vote: HarbingerofDoom But with that I am off, Will be back in a few hours though, I promise Now, to me this vote feel's forced. On January 06 2012 08:25 Grackaroni wrote: @Layabout. I think what you don't understand is that I see a difference between a day1 lynch and a day vig. I know perfectly well that Bluelightz is being anti-town but having him as a lynch target won't make anybody take a stand on their vote. Everyone can agree that he is being anti-town and then if he flips town all we will gain from it is BH saying "Damn I'm so pissed off that this player who I completely expected to play well has performed poorly, guess it's his fault." i would avoid this problem with a day vig shot. @BH Do you really hold him up to the same standards as other players that you would be pissed off if he flips town? If people are going to lynch somebody who I don't think is scum and If I can't find a scum player I will vote Bluelightz, he is simply my backup lynch. (I think he has a greater chance of flipping scum than any random lurker) His play is anti town but that doesn't mean he is scum. You're right that I should be shooting the person I vote for but the choice to vote wasn't really thought out. i'm not confident that HoD is scum but I do have my suspicions. The vote was a little bit based off of emotions because I am tired of BH's "be a man and vote" rants. Nevertheless it's not the end of the world as my vote is not locked in stone by any means and I still have more time to look into HoD. (or anyone else for that matter) Here he responds to questions and who he will vote(me) if he cannot find anyone more scummier than me(to him) On January 06 2012 09:06 Grackaroni wrote: That's basically one of the reasons I'm suspicious. You post a lot at the start and then when scumhunting begins you disappear, not that you didn't scumhunt at the start. The only meta I got from you was that you seemed like somebody who posted a lot and spent a lot of time scumhunting in that game. I should have looked into more recent games but what's wrong with letting me think that of you? the first part of your quote strikes me the wrong way because I get the feeling that you just wanted to downplay my abilities, you don't care if I accuse you and think my opinion should be worth less than a veteran like syllogism. You've done nothing to change my mind, the only person you call scummy is me and your reasoning is that you think my case against you is shitty + you add in my opinion of bluelightz which I don't think you would have even mentioned if I didn't accuse you. Next you make some posts about people lurking and leave. You haven't been scumhunting but you keep giving me reasons to believe that you have lots of time to do so : [previous game with lots of scumhunting and posting, early signup, post a lot on strategies at the start of the game (early to find out it started too) quick to see my post and has time to defend yourself] You're definitely holding back in your posting. Now, here he is comparing HoD in Newbie Mini and here, nothing shines his aligment here though. Now, wishy-wahsyness(like me) isn't really like himself in Student Mafia, In Student he was Direct and gave no second thought when he was voting on anyone. So, in conclusion FoS: Grackaroni | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On January 06 2012 19:04 Tyrran wrote: I disagree with you here. From the few games I've read Palmar seems to be a efficient scum hunter.Bussing Palmar is therefore an good scum strat. Almost EVERY SINGLE one of Jackal post were attacking palmar. And he NEVER had more than 1 line of justification. He did not even refer to MrWiggles case. That is scummy play for me. Also note that as there is 2 scum faction, they can perfectly both be scum, one angel and one demon. I'll be looking at both of them today. Palmar need to step up his game, and Jackal needs to start become useful. Almost all of my day 1 posts attack Palmar. It's a habit. Not necessarily a bad one either. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
nothing to see here (clicky) Palmar trolls and call people stupid stundent mafia he was smurfing as electric black Palmar make lots of reads election mafia read about half of this and filtered syllo+palamar hyra Arctocod, run for major and call people stupid Steamship mafia Palmar analyses and calls people stupid TL Mafia XLVII Palmar runs for major and calls people stupid I have seen quite a lot of variability in how town Palmar behaves, after these i read resistance I(which isn't quite mafia) and responsibilty mafia in which palmar was 3rd party/scum. In those games i could not confidently make inferences about his meta and correctly use them to determine whether he is scum or town, because there was not enough common day1 town traits that have become clear to me in the games of his i have read through, thoroughly. This was largely due to the variance in his play on day1. I feel like i have spent quite a lot of time reading through his post but i feel like i would need to do more to establish a strong read based on his meta that i would confidently support. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
What do you think about my case against mr. wiggles? Can you explain further why you want to lynch grackaroni (I agree that his play is just... derp, so far, but why do you think so?) | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On January 06 2012 22:32 syllogism wrote: And just like with everything else, you trust people who you think have made themselves look towny and you consider good players. Quoting a person with one post to support your anti-meta stance doesn't make you look particularly good, though I don't otherwise have an issue with your play so far xsksc was agree with Refallen (that palmar trolls) so i considered that 2 quotes. It was also to illustrate that the people that are confident in their meta read might have different meta reads. besides the logic behind my stance is independent of the quote and that logic is the important part. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On January 06 2012 22:35 Jackal58 wrote: Almost all of my day 1 posts attack Palmar. It's a habit. Not necessarily a bad one either. And do you think that's productive? Are you town? Do you think you're helping town progress right now? | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On January 06 2012 22:53 syllogism wrote: How would he know that you are not scum even if he is scum? two families, right. Anyway, the point stands, he's not being useful. | ||
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
Disregarding meta (i have nothing) his first post for me can be described like this: "Lets push ever so slightly on 3 different targets and lets see who bites." Shitty plan as a town - he later claimed that was his plan, but a perfectly good play for scum. Start a weak case and have someone else pick it up can carry it to mislynch. Rests of his posts are basicly fluff and useless. Oh and avoiding commiting on anything with excuses. I dislike a lynch on Bluelightz. He have been active and trying to contribute. How his contributions have helped town can be discussed but I take that as bad play rather then him being scum. He is just a guy who saids what he wants in one sentence. =) I'll take a look on Palmar/Wiggles case/counter-case soon. @Cwave. You posted some time ago that you wanted to shoot me without reason. Still want to shoot me? But more importantly why? | ||
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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
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