EPTAND IT DANCES
(and micro well)
The Warp Mechanic and How It Broke Protoss - Page 41
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eatmybunnies
United States90 Posts
AND IT DANCES (and micro well) | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On October 12 2011 08:38 SupLilSon wrote: Honestly, warpgate and forcefield are the 2 best defender's advantages in the game. I really don't know what all you guys are fussing about. You don't have to make units until a push is literally at your ramp. You can FF all day and continue warping in units faster than Z or T can reinforce. You have shields that quickly and fully regenerate. INSTANT UNITS, honestly how do you complain about that? At least Terran/Zerg are forced to make units preemptively because you know, it actually takes time to build units... There are even more insane advantages to warpgate but its irrelevant to keep going... Of all the things people can complain about with toss and this is it? 50/50 for the best up in the game >.> be happy... Forcefield is a good defender tool if you can use it on your ramp. But what happens when you fast expand? Can you constantly put 7 forcefields to block off your natural? It's only good if you 1-base, and if you're 1-basing, you're either teching (the only situation when you need it) or about to timing attack (why would you need to defend?) Shields regenerating does not = defender's advantage. Shields are made more fragile because they regenerate. So in actuality, it makes defender's advantage worse because the regeneration doesn't actually kick in fast enough DURING the fight, and units are more fragile. You fail to understand the nature of Protoss units. P units are weaker because they can warp in anywhere/anytime. That cancels each other out. Seriously, consider what other people are saying about you. Most people on these forums are ex-broodwar / masters league / good players. You should really listen to what people better than us are saying. | ||
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adrenaLinG
Canada676 Posts
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
On January 06 2012 19:49 adrenaLinG wrote: why did you necro a thread to reply to a 3 month old post? Guess he used the search function and didn't notice? I mean it's an old topic but it's still pretty relevant. Hope it gets fixed somehow in HotS. | ||
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Vod.kaholic
United States1052 Posts
On January 06 2012 20:42 Serelitz wrote: Guess he used the search function and didn't notice? I mean it's an old topic but it's still pretty relevant. Hope it gets fixed somehow in HotS. Only if they somehow miraculously balance the arc cannon, and even then it's only good vs light units and for a short amount of time. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15897 Posts
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Erasme
Bahamas15897 Posts
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DarK[A]
United States217 Posts
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deadmau
960 Posts
On January 06 2012 21:01 DarK[A] wrote: I don't really understand what you're trying to say. I would consider it an advantage to be able to "instantly" warp in defensive units regardless of where your offensive army is. My friend that is not "defender's advantage" whatsoever lol. But seriously, what the OP says is quite logical and true. I been a forever toss player at Diamond almost Masters. And I pray for the day Warpgate gets removed so that Protoss T1-1.5 aren't so weak, and so we get a legitimate defender's advantage. | ||
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Mazaire
Australia217 Posts
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puissance
97 Posts
After researching Warp Gate, Gateway units are quicker produced by using normal Gateways instead of Warpgates (may also reduces swapping time between both). This is done by either increasing Warpage cooldown time or reducing build time of units after the Warp Gate upgrade (not before or else early rushes would be too strong). Now Protoss can produce faster on the defense and once they want to push / harass, they swap to Warp Gates and deploy anywhere but with a lower total production rate. In turn this means that in PvP a defending Protoss can produce faster than the pushing Protoss can warp in. Thoughts? | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
TL;DR: An offensive and a defensive Protoss have the same rally distance. This is not a disadvantage for a defending Protoss, but an advantage for an attacking protoss. OP is bs, sentry gives enough defense power. Moreover, in the early game Protoss has the strongest units (until Stimpack finishes). | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On January 06 2012 21:05 deadmau wrote: My friend that is not "defender's advantage" whatsoever lol. But seriously, what the OP says is quite logical and true. I been a forever toss player at Diamond almost Masters. I can't understand why you're denying it, because that's exactly what it is. The warp gate mechanics is both a defender's advantage and an ability that negates defender's advantage of the opponent. And I pray for the day Warpgate gets removed so that Protoss T1-1.5 aren't so weak, and so we get a legitimate defender's advantage. That made even less sense, considering the almost unanimous complaints about +3 armor zealots TvP and the mobility of warp prism and hatch sniping lategame ZvP. Also consider that archons are essentially gateway units too. and even with morph time can reinforce faster than zerglings and marines. | ||
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Abort Retry Fail
2636 Posts
btw, toss is still the same, so this thread is still ok imo | ||
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ntssauce
Germany750 Posts
my secon point is that the pvt earlygame is very imbalanced because of the facts you mentioned... without a bunker or a similar structure protoss just barely defends against terrans mass units. but even in pvz most zerg could easily crush you by pumping out units and overruning you till no ffs are left. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On January 06 2012 21:30 Sadistx wrote: I can't understand why you're denying it, because that's exactly what it is. The warp gate mechanics is both a defender's advantage and an ability that negates defender's advantage of the opponent. That made even less sense, considering the almost unanimous complaints about +3 armor zealots TvP and the mobility of warp prism and hatch sniping lategame ZvP. Also consider that archons are essentially gateway units too. and even with morph time can reinforce faster than zerglings and marines. You're missing the point. Gateway units have been made less cost efficient to compensate for warpgates. Terran units have been made more cost efficient because they have to walk out of their building. When terran defends, they get the benefit of pretty fast reinforcements + cost efficiency. When protoss defends, they get fast reinforcements, but without the cost efficiency. | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
On January 06 2012 21:30 Sadistx wrote: I can't understand why you're denying it, because that's exactly what it is. The warp gate mechanics is both a defender's advantage and an ability that negates defender's advantage of the opponent. That made even less sense, considering the almost unanimous complaints about +3 armor zealots TvP and the mobility of warp prism and hatch sniping lategame ZvP. Also consider that archons are essentially gateway units too. and even with morph time can reinforce faster than zerglings and marines. What I said is true, and his understanding of defender's advantage is wrong. There is no advantage of "warping in defensive units," defender's advantage means your rally distance is short to defend. Terran example: Protoss/zerg attacks your front, you can reinforce fast because your barracks are right there and right when they pop out they are ready to help you defend. Defender's advantage. Zerg example: P/T attacks your front, your units pop out and you can reinforce almost instantly because you are at home and on creep. Defender's advantage. The guy i quoted thinks you being able to warp in units at home to defend an an attack while your army is out on the map is a defender's advantage, which makes no sense. Terran and Zerg constantly pop out at home near their production (hatch/barracks/facts) while their armys are out on the map. So where is the advantage again? lol If protoss did not have warpgate, their units would pop out at home anyway (short rally, which is the inherent benefit of defender's advantage) so warpgate does nothing to add to a supposed Protoss defender's advantage The Underlying Message: The Original Post is saying that because Protoss Warpgate Units are balanced in a fashion that they have a fair shake in offensive fashion, with instant reinforcement (not having to rally across map) against a defending Terran/Zerg defensive position, when a Protoss is defending, they are already meant to have quick reinforcements at home with short rally like Terran / Zerg at home, so when Protoss are defending Warpgate gives them no benefit, and their units strength are balanced around the fact that they are meant to have a fair shake against a DEFENDING terran/zerg. If anyone can explain the OP's concept in a more concise and clear fashion for people that don't understand it, please help me out, I can't shorten it for them. It's a hard concept to grasp for most. | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
On January 06 2012 21:39 AndAgain wrote: You're missing the point. Gateway units have been made less cost efficient to compensate for warpgates. Terran units have been made more cost efficient because they have to walk out of their building. When terran defends, they get the benefit of pretty fast reinforcements + cost efficiency. When protoss defends, they get fast reinforcements, but without the cost efficiency. Exactly, Protoss 1-1.5 are efficient when they are ATTACKING and able to reinforce instantly, they are balanced around this fact. But at home defending, you already have a short rally, warping in gives you zero advantage, also your units aren't as good because they are balance around the fact you are allowed to attack an opponent and instantly reinforce. | ||
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Vega08
United States17 Posts
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Andreas
Norway214 Posts
On January 06 2012 21:50 deadmau wrote: Exactly, Protoss 1-1.5 are efficient when they are ATTACKING and able to reinforce instantly, they are balanced around this fact. But at home defending, you already have a short rally, warping in gives you zero advantage, also your units aren't as good because they are balance around the fact you are allowed to attack an opponent and instantly reinforce. If protoss units are "balanced around the fact you are allowed to attack an opponent and instantly reinforce", that means the standing protoss army at any point can engage the terran/zerg standing army even when supported by a short rally AND defensive structures. How does the same army have a *disadvantage* when the terran/zerg is attacking with no short rally and no defensive structures? | ||
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