The Warp Mechanic and How It Broke Protoss - Page 40

Vinland

Argentina136 Posts

October 12 2011 13:05 GMT

#781

Id love to see some interactivity with the Gateway/Warpgates. Something like.. If you use a Gateway you can get Dragoons, if you get a Warpgate you can get Stalkers.
Not sure how that would affect the balance exactly, but sounds cool (?)

VTPerfect

United States487 Posts

October 12 2011 13:20 GMT

#782

Blizzard just needs to buff gateway units, obviously warpgate all ins being unstoppable is a terrible idea but warpgate was nerfed by 40 seconds so it stands to reason that warpgate timings are less powerful which means blizzard has some wiggle room in that area.

Edit. Currently PvT is just vikings own the colossus, emp disables forcefield/ht/archon and cripples gateway unit, stim bio face roll gateway unit gg terran too good. HT vs Ghost just needs to be balanced and gateway vs bio needs balance and then the more skilled player wins i think.

polysciguy

United States488 Posts

October 12 2011 15:41 GMT

#783

On October 12 2011 20:59 Tula wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 12 2011 11:00 MuseMike wrote:

On October 12 2011 10:07 Sveet wrote:

On October 12 2011 10:00 Shiori wrote:

On October 12 2011 09:50 Tula wrote:

On October 12 2011 09:10 Fig wrote:

On October 12 2011 09:01 UncleOwnage wrote:
I really don't get how people can say they agree with this.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but the whole argument is wrong.

You say the protoss has no significant defender's advantage because of the warp gate mechanic, but consider this;
When being attacked, the protoss warps in units at his base, meaning they are instantly ready for the fight while his opponent has units on the long rally move. This creates exactly the same effect as when a terran has units pop out of his barracks. Enemy reinforcements are still in transit while yours arrive instantly.

You must be able to see that the protoss does not lose anything because he warps in units in his base compared to them popping out of a gateway. Warp-in only messes with the offense of protoss.

The ONLY issue comes in PvP actually, which you disregarded. Here the attacker has no rally, meaning the defender's advantage of rally is negated.

Now to determine if protoss was balanced around being able to warp in units in the battle (and thus are weaker somehow, this could be the 5 sec warp-in period where units are vulnerable) is another matter and could be investigated.

TL;DR: OP is wrong, no defender's advantage is lost because you warp-in in your base (because enemies still have long rally). Warp gate is a purely offensive buff.

The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units.

Frankly i've yet to see that opinion proven... Protoss units require a tad more micro than Terran units (less than zerg units on the other hand) but if they are microed they are just as strong in each phase of the game. If they are microed well (good forcefields, guardian shield and decent targetfiring with the stalkers) they are stronger than any Zerg or Terran unit at that phase. Unupgraded gateway units can trade cost effectively against any Terran barrack unit. Once the upgrades for Terrans start to kick in (conc shell and stim specifically) things get a bit more difficult until the twilight council upgrades can be researched then they lean towards the protoss side.

The Warpgate is a key mechanic to the protoss race, yes it "feels" as if protoss has less defenders advantadge because they are simply used to the fact that they always warp in units close to the battle. There is only a very specific timing window when Terran has researched stim and protoss doesn't have any Tech out themselves (colossi, archons, charge, blink) where protoss is vulnerable. But such timing windows are part of every matchup, you could list a ton of them for ZvP, TvP, TvZ as well if you look carefully.

no gateway composition beats mm cost for cost. period. the best you can do are forcefields to make the battlefield slightly more even, but those come in finite supply and are expensive.

Zealot sentry is really strong and beats MM at many stages of the game with proper forcefields. Not to mention archons are techincally gateway units, and archon zealot is a staple of the matchup. I play gateway heavy most of the time vs terran.

Ghosts are a rax unit then too. Ghosts destroy any and all gateway units.

bull....

Ghosts DIE to any and all gateway units 1on1 unless you have enough energy for snipe. EMP can turn the tide of a battle but so can storms.

To the poster above it, zealot sentry deals with barracks units easily for cost as long as you forcefield behind them. If you can't forcefield behind them what are you doing engaging in open fields at that point of the game?

Well stim and conc shells make it hard to retreat and emp changes more battles than storm for the simple fact that ghosts 1 outranges feedback 2emp can not be microed out of other than spreading out,the same spread rule can apply to storm 3 ghosts move faster and can cloak to get perfect emps.

ThirdDegree

United States329 Posts

October 13 2011 17:14 GMT

#784

I like the idea of a choice between WG and GW. Basically protoss is nothing without getting the wg research, and I think that there should be builds that delay it but still remain viable. I was thinking about having units be 10% cheaper from gw. This way you are paying a little more for the speed/location of the warped in unit. Might give incentive for early non-wg pushes.

ilovelings

Argentina776 Posts

October 13 2011 17:20 GMT

#785

On October 14 2011 02:14 ThirdDegree wrote:
I like the idea of a choice between WG and GW. Basically protoss is nothing without getting the wg research, and I think that there should be builds that delay it but still remain viable. I was thinking about having units be 10% cheaper from gw. This way you are paying a little more for the speed/location of the warped in unit. Might give incentive for early non-wg pushes.

Oh glorious proxy rushes!

ThirdDegree

United States329 Posts

October 13 2011 17:21 GMT

#786

On October 14 2011 02:20 ilovelings wrote:
Oh glorious proxy rushes!

Says the guy who can proxy rax and then float away.....

Cyber_Cheese

Australia3615 Posts

October 13 2011 17:24 GMT

#787

It'd be hard to balance utility vs whatever bonus normal GW gives, and the bonus should only kick in after wg research finishes, but i would love to see it

ThirdDegree

United States329 Posts

October 13 2011 17:32 GMT

#788

Well you could just make WG units 10% more expensive, and leave current costs as is. It was poor wording on my part. I didn't mean to necessarily make them cheaper than current, just have the wg units come at a more expensive cost.

deniscote

Canada14 Posts

October 13 2011 17:36 GMT

#789

you just have to get used to scouting and defending accordingly and you will be perfectly fine

DocM

United States212 Posts

October 13 2011 17:36 GMT

#790

The Immortal was originally meant to be a gateway unit.
Why dont we just take the Immortal and make it only available on Gateways?

syn_apse

United States34 Posts

October 13 2011 17:37 GMT

#791

On October 14 2011 02:32 ThirdDegree wrote:
Well you could just make WG units 10% more expensive, and leave current costs as is. It was poor wording on my part. I didn't mean to necessarily make them cheaper than current, just have the wg units come at a more expensive cost.

Eww, protoss nerf? Maybe have non-WG units cost 10% less? like zealots for 90min and 100 out of a warpgate.

ThirdDegree

United States329 Posts

October 13 2011 17:45 GMT

#792

Yea anything like this, but also you would need to remove the research of wg, or at least make it much shorter and less expensive.

And really I'm just spitballing ideas on how to make it so keeping a gateway is viable

deniscote

Canada14 Posts

October 14 2011 15:20 GMT

#793

WG is inevitably a research that is crucial to any protoaa mid to late game build , so the cost of it is balanced , if you're complaining about the min and gas/ time cost its really pretty fast and cost effective in the long run , if you're going for an early rush WG is not even that crucial just crono out gateway units and have WG research during pressure to reduce down time , its al about multi tasking you can also you can sentry expand with just gateways and have more ready for WG research to complete , WG is not broken , just play the game like it is Stop QQing >

InFi.asc

Germany518 Posts

October 14 2011 15:42 GMT

#794

remove colossus and warpgate and give me good gateway units plz.

or make warpgate reduce building time in gateway mode instead of of warpgate.

it's not like this is a new idea but i don't see why it has not been implemented in the game as of yet.

it is shockingly obvious that the protoss design is broken as it is

CatNzHat

United States1599 Posts

October 14 2011 16:21 GMT

#795

I think that the huge flaw in the logic here is that if you're trying to attack into a protoss player, they have the largest defenders advantage in a straight up engagement, forcefields + sim city + warp-ins make it extremely hard even on maps with wide natural expansions to attack into a protoss player. Some protoss timing pushes are too powerful in my eyes simply due to the sheild mechanic, but that's a different story.

tl;dr: Attacking into a protoss with a decent spread and sentries is nearly impossible to do without an advantage of some sort (tech, army size or otherwise).

eatmybunnies

United States90 Posts

October 14 2011 19:31 GMT

#796

lol i hate "birding" noobs that post "tree-tarded" "shitaki mushrooms" and waste my time.

If you think toss has the best early game defense your "tree-tarded" .
The only reason toss is alive during the first 5 minutes of the game is due to walling up and hiding behind force-fields.
Not to mention that if you miss one forcefield you lose, or put 1 building in the wrong place.

BUT WAIT
not only are bunkers basically free, but you can salvage them and you dont have to kill a building jsut to leave your base.
Not even gonna start that terran have the best starting unit.. marine.
Then Emp at 7 minute mark is just ridiculousness

Tula

Austria1544 Posts

October 14 2011 19:39 GMT

#797

On October 15 2011 04:31 eatmybunnies wrote:
lol i hate "birding" noobs that post "tree-tarded" "shitaki mushrooms" and waste my time.

If you think toss has the best early game defense your "tree-tarded" .
The only reason toss is alive during the first 5 minutes of the game is due to walling up and hiding behind force-fields.
Not to mention that if you miss one forcefield you lose, or put 1 building in the wrong place.

BUT WAIT
not only are bunkers basically free, but you can salvage them and you dont have to kill a building jsut to leave your base.
Not even gonna start that terran have the best starting unit.. marine.
Then Emp at 7 minute mark is just ridiculousness

....

Some perspective here. Bunkers cost 100 minerals and do not do anything at all by themselves. So basically what you can do is build a buff for your units that costs 100 minerals but cannot move (and takes a friggin long time to build nowadays).

EMP at 7 minute mark is possible, but you won't have anything except emp, no medivacs, no bio upgrades nothing.

Seriously, if you want to complain at least stick to facts.

freetgy

1720 Posts

October 14 2011 19:47 GMT

#798

On October 15 2011 01:21 CatNzHat wrote:
I think that the huge flaw in the logic here is that if you're trying to attack into a protoss player, they have the largest defenders advantage in a straight up engagement, forcefields + sim city + warp-ins make it extremely hard even on maps with wide natural expansions to attack into a protoss player. Some protoss timing pushes are too powerful in my eyes simply due to the sheild mechanic, but that's a different story.

tl;dr: Attacking into a protoss with a decent spread and sentries is nearly impossible to do without an advantage of some sort (tech, army size or otherwise).

guess thats why every terran player is so scared to use 1-1-1
Early / Mid game Terran can outproduce Protoss in the Damage Output easily.
Protoss has to resort to opening to gain an economic lead to convert this into beeing able to sustain the damage output of Terran.

On October 15 2011 04:39 Tula wrote:
Some perspective here. Bunkers cost 100 minerals and do not do anything at all by themselves. So basically what you can do is build a buff for your units that costs 100 minerals but cannot move (and takes a friggin long time to build nowadays).

EMP at 7 minute mark is possible, but you won't have anything except emp, no medivacs, no bio upgrades nothing.

Seriously, if you want to complain at least stick to facts.

yeah does nothing except giving your defensive units additinal 400HP (+Repair) thats alot, to defend early aggression.

InFi.asc

Germany518 Posts

October 14 2011 19:48 GMT

#799

On October 15 2011 04:47 freetgy wrote:

Show nested quote +

yeah does nothing except giving your defense 400 more help per bunker, thats alot, to defend early aggression.

400 HP that you can repair !