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On October 12 2011 09:50 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 09:10 Fig wrote:On October 12 2011 09:01 UncleOwnage wrote:
I really don't get how people can say they agree with this.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but the whole argument is wrong.
You say the protoss has no significant defender's advantage because of the warp gate mechanic, but consider this;
When being attacked, the protoss warps in units at his base, meaning they are instantly ready for the fight while his opponent has units on the long rally move. This creates exactly the same effect as when a terran has units pop out of his barracks. Enemy reinforcements are still in transit while yours arrive instantly.
You must be able to see that the protoss does not lose anything because he warps in units in his base compared to them popping out of a gateway. Warp-in only messes with the offense of protoss.
The ONLY issue comes in PvP actually, which you disregarded. Here the attacker has no rally, meaning the defender's advantage of rally is negated.
Now to determine if protoss was balanced around being able to warp in units in the battle (and thus are weaker somehow, this could be the 5 sec warp-in period where units are vulnerable) is another matter and could be investigated.
TL;DR: OP is wrong, no defender's advantage is lost because you warp-in in your base (because enemies still have long rally). Warp gate is a purely offensive buff. The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units. Frankly i've yet to see that opinion proven... Protoss units require a tad more micro than Terran units (less than zerg units on the other hand) but if they are microed they are just as strong in each phase of the game. If they are microed well (good forcefields, guardian shield and decent targetfiring with the stalkers) they are stronger than any Zerg or Terran unit at that phase. Unupgraded gateway units can trade cost effectively against any Terran barrack unit. Once the upgrades for Terrans start to kick in (conc shell and stim specifically) things get a bit more difficult until the twilight council upgrades can be researched then they lean towards the protoss side. The Warpgate is a key mechanic to the protoss race, yes it "feels" as if protoss has less defenders advantadge because they are simply used to the fact that they always warp in units close to the battle. There is only a very specific timing window when Terran has researched stim and protoss doesn't have any Tech out themselves (colossi, archons, charge, blink) where protoss is vulnerable. But such timing windows are part of every matchup, you could list a ton of them for ZvP, TvP, TvZ as well if you look carefully.
no gateway composition beats mm cost for cost. period. the best you can do are forcefields to make the battlefield slightly more even, but those come in finite supply and are expensive.
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On October 12 2011 10:00 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 09:50 Tula wrote:On October 12 2011 09:10 Fig wrote:On October 12 2011 09:01 UncleOwnage wrote:
I really don't get how people can say they agree with this.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but the whole argument is wrong.
You say the protoss has no significant defender's advantage because of the warp gate mechanic, but consider this;
When being attacked, the protoss warps in units at his base, meaning they are instantly ready for the fight while his opponent has units on the long rally move. This creates exactly the same effect as when a terran has units pop out of his barracks. Enemy reinforcements are still in transit while yours arrive instantly.
You must be able to see that the protoss does not lose anything because he warps in units in his base compared to them popping out of a gateway. Warp-in only messes with the offense of protoss.
The ONLY issue comes in PvP actually, which you disregarded. Here the attacker has no rally, meaning the defender's advantage of rally is negated.
Now to determine if protoss was balanced around being able to warp in units in the battle (and thus are weaker somehow, this could be the 5 sec warp-in period where units are vulnerable) is another matter and could be investigated.
TL;DR: OP is wrong, no defender's advantage is lost because you warp-in in your base (because enemies still have long rally). Warp gate is a purely offensive buff. The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units. Frankly i've yet to see that opinion proven... Protoss units require a tad more micro than Terran units (less than zerg units on the other hand) but if they are microed they are just as strong in each phase of the game. If they are microed well (good forcefields, guardian shield and decent targetfiring with the stalkers) they are stronger than any Zerg or Terran unit at that phase. Unupgraded gateway units can trade cost effectively against any Terran barrack unit. Once the upgrades for Terrans start to kick in (conc shell and stim specifically) things get a bit more difficult until the twilight council upgrades can be researched then they lean towards the protoss side. The Warpgate is a key mechanic to the protoss race, yes it "feels" as if protoss has less defenders advantadge because they are simply used to the fact that they always warp in units close to the battle. There is only a very specific timing window when Terran has researched stim and protoss doesn't have any Tech out themselves (colossi, archons, charge, blink) where protoss is vulnerable. But such timing windows are part of every matchup, you could list a ton of them for ZvP, TvP, TvZ as well if you look carefully. no gateway composition beats mm cost for cost. period. the best you can do are forcefields to make the battlefield slightly more even, but those come in finite supply and are expensive.
Zealot sentry is really strong and beats MM at many stages of the game with proper forcefields. Not to mention archons are techincally gateway units, and archon zealot is a staple of the matchup. I play gateway heavy most of the time vs terran.
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Personally i think its ok, yes we can't go crazy macro builds agaist an offensive player, but really a 4 gate with proper ff's will break a 1 rax expo. Whats important to remember is that warpgates have cooldown, and that is the drawback to them being able to warp anywhere since toss units build slower its half advantage half not in the sense that yes your units are there, but thats only warpgates how often is an army JUST zealot stalker sentry in the mid game, toss is favoring robo right now so it balances out imo.
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Not sure if anyone's had this idea yet but: What if warp-in time scaled proportionately to how far away the warp in was from a nexus? That way
1) even with the warp in mechanic there's a defender's advantage that can be tweaked using a single number/formula if it's not linear
2) now I can say the words 'proxy nexus'
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Regardless of how Protoss lacks a certain amount of a "Defender's advantage", it's unique offensive advantage clearly makes up for it. The defensive deficiency is not gamebreaking enough to cause a significant hinderance to the race itself, as we see many Protoss players being able to survive into the midgame and endgame, where they can indeed make use of perhaps some of the most powerful, underutilized offensive tactics brought about by the Warp Prism.
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On October 12 2011 05:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 05:34 xlava wrote:
I honestly can't believe that this ridiculous thread got resurrected. Let it die. Not all races are equal in all regards, we should seriously stop discussing it because as it stands now, Protoss is the weakest race anyway, and the game itself is balanced for all intents and purposes. So a weakest race can exist yet the game itself is balanced? I can't take someone seriously when they contradict themselves in one sentence.
Before you post such a hostile, flame baiting comment, actually read my post completely.
Yes, of course a weakest race can exist while the game is balanced for all intents and purposes. What I mean by that is that at all levels but the very highest level of play, ie. GSL code S, the game is balanced. I never contradicted myself, I qualified myself, please learn the difference.
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i believe that the op was pointing out that because of the warpgate mechanic blizzard didn't put in a defensive structure that was unlocked after the gateway was complete, such as the bunker and spinecrawler for terran and zerg. both of which are critical for holding off early agression. protoss has no such structure and is therefore weaker to early agression.
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On October 12 2011 10:40 Flamingo777 wrote:
Regardless of how Protoss lacks a certain amount of a "Defender's advantage", it's unique offensive advantage clearly makes up for it. The defensive deficiency is not gamebreaking enough to cause a significant hinderance to the race itself, as we see many Protoss players being able to survive into the midgame and endgame, where they can indeed make use of perhaps some of the most powerful, underutilized offensive tactics brought about by the Warp Prism.
Actually, this warpgate thing may be the reason why protoss are currently 'suffering' especially at the high levels. It does seem quite unfair that offensively every race is even, but when it comes to defending Protoss is weaker.
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On October 12 2011 10:07 Sveet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 10:00 Shiori wrote:On October 12 2011 09:50 Tula wrote:On October 12 2011 09:10 Fig wrote:On October 12 2011 09:01 UncleOwnage wrote:
I really don't get how people can say they agree with this.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but the whole argument is wrong.
You say the protoss has no significant defender's advantage because of the warp gate mechanic, but consider this;
When being attacked, the protoss warps in units at his base, meaning they are instantly ready for the fight while his opponent has units on the long rally move. This creates exactly the same effect as when a terran has units pop out of his barracks. Enemy reinforcements are still in transit while yours arrive instantly.
You must be able to see that the protoss does not lose anything because he warps in units in his base compared to them popping out of a gateway. Warp-in only messes with the offense of protoss.
The ONLY issue comes in PvP actually, which you disregarded. Here the attacker has no rally, meaning the defender's advantage of rally is negated.
Now to determine if protoss was balanced around being able to warp in units in the battle (and thus are weaker somehow, this could be the 5 sec warp-in period where units are vulnerable) is another matter and could be investigated.
TL;DR: OP is wrong, no defender's advantage is lost because you warp-in in your base (because enemies still have long rally). Warp gate is a purely offensive buff. The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units. Frankly i've yet to see that opinion proven... Protoss units require a tad more micro than Terran units (less than zerg units on the other hand) but if they are microed they are just as strong in each phase of the game. If they are microed well (good forcefields, guardian shield and decent targetfiring with the stalkers) they are stronger than any Zerg or Terran unit at that phase. Unupgraded gateway units can trade cost effectively against any Terran barrack unit. Once the upgrades for Terrans start to kick in (conc shell and stim specifically) things get a bit more difficult until the twilight council upgrades can be researched then they lean towards the protoss side. The Warpgate is a key mechanic to the protoss race, yes it "feels" as if protoss has less defenders advantadge because they are simply used to the fact that they always warp in units close to the battle. There is only a very specific timing window when Terran has researched stim and protoss doesn't have any Tech out themselves (colossi, archons, charge, blink) where protoss is vulnerable. But such timing windows are part of every matchup, you could list a ton of them for ZvP, TvP, TvZ as well if you look carefully. no gateway composition beats mm cost for cost. period. the best you can do are forcefields to make the battlefield slightly more even, but those come in finite supply and are expensive. Zealot sentry is really strong and beats MM at many stages of the game with proper forcefields. Not to mention archons are techincally gateway units, and archon zealot is a staple of the matchup. I play gateway heavy most of the time vs terran.
Ghosts are a rax unit then too. Ghosts destroy any and all gateway units.
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i think the main problem is the main gateway units(zealot/stalker) are way to big, maybe not that zealot so much but the stalker. When you go and try to take on some marine/marauder, they can get their whole army attacking you while just trying to get all your stalkers and zealots attacking is impossible since everything is big and gets in eachothers way.
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On October 12 2011 10:56 ambrosiaa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 10:40 Flamingo777 wrote:
Regardless of how Protoss lacks a certain amount of a "Defender's advantage", it's unique offensive advantage clearly makes up for it. The defensive deficiency is not gamebreaking enough to cause a significant hinderance to the race itself, as we see many Protoss players being able to survive into the midgame and endgame, where they can indeed make use of perhaps some of the most powerful, underutilized offensive tactics brought about by the Warp Prism. Actually, this warpgate thing may be the reason why protoss are currently 'suffering' especially at the high levels. It does seem quite unfair that offensively every race is even, but when it comes to defending Protoss is weaker.
I'm arguing that Protoss may have a slight (I'm probably underestimating it, actually) advantage offensively where the others have an advantage in the early game defense department. By having the ability to have a moving rally point, that can go behind opponent's defenses and immediately warp in units (no ~30 second tier one build times) that when fails, only yields a loss of 200 minerals (which is nothing in an endgame economy) versus a full medivac or overlord where the drop failing player loses a significant amount more, sometimes up to 600 minerals 300 gas and around 10 supply? I think this is an extremely unique function of both harass and immediate army reinforcement, anywhere on the map. I think that it's at least enough of an advantage offensively in the mid-late game to argue that Protoss AT LEAST has a slight advantage there where the other two races have a slight defensive advantage in the early-midgame due to structural functions (disregarding army unit functions such as the defensive capabilities of the siege tank and raven, forcefields, and perhaps even fungal growth).
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I can only really wrap my head around your logic in the context of PvP, where the defenders advantage is lost to any opponent of a protoss.
If we assume a perfectly macroing terran (Zerg) player (no supply blocks, constant production) versus a Protoss player, also perfectly macroing (not missing warp cycles, no blocks, etc), Protoss still has their defenders advantage, as things are warped in on-location, and Terran (Zerg) still has to rally.
The only notable difference is the lack of cannon-building at Gateway tech, but that's not a problem with warpgate, really.
Am I missing something?
I guess it seems to me that, while the reinforcement mechanic works defensively and (better) offensively (than compared to the other races), that doesn't detract from having the shorter rally as an inherent advantage. But it sounds like you implied that it wasn't, which is where I'm confused on your point.
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On October 12 2011 10:07 Sveet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 10:00 Shiori wrote:On October 12 2011 09:50 Tula wrote:On October 12 2011 09:10 Fig wrote:On October 12 2011 09:01 UncleOwnage wrote:
I really don't get how people can say they agree with this.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but the whole argument is wrong.
You say the protoss has no significant defender's advantage because of the warp gate mechanic, but consider this;
When being attacked, the protoss warps in units at his base, meaning they are instantly ready for the fight while his opponent has units on the long rally move. This creates exactly the same effect as when a terran has units pop out of his barracks. Enemy reinforcements are still in transit while yours arrive instantly.
You must be able to see that the protoss does not lose anything because he warps in units in his base compared to them popping out of a gateway. Warp-in only messes with the offense of protoss.
The ONLY issue comes in PvP actually, which you disregarded. Here the attacker has no rally, meaning the defender's advantage of rally is negated.
Now to determine if protoss was balanced around being able to warp in units in the battle (and thus are weaker somehow, this could be the 5 sec warp-in period where units are vulnerable) is another matter and could be investigated.
TL;DR: OP is wrong, no defender's advantage is lost because you warp-in in your base (because enemies still have long rally). Warp gate is a purely offensive buff. The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units. Frankly i've yet to see that opinion proven... Protoss units require a tad more micro than Terran units (less than zerg units on the other hand) but if they are microed they are just as strong in each phase of the game. If they are microed well (good forcefields, guardian shield and decent targetfiring with the stalkers) they are stronger than any Zerg or Terran unit at that phase. Unupgraded gateway units can trade cost effectively against any Terran barrack unit. Once the upgrades for Terrans start to kick in (conc shell and stim specifically) things get a bit more difficult until the twilight council upgrades can be researched then they lean towards the protoss side. The Warpgate is a key mechanic to the protoss race, yes it "feels" as if protoss has less defenders advantadge because they are simply used to the fact that they always warp in units close to the battle. There is only a very specific timing window when Terran has researched stim and protoss doesn't have any Tech out themselves (colossi, archons, charge, blink) where protoss is vulnerable. But such timing windows are part of every matchup, you could list a ton of them for ZvP, TvP, TvZ as well if you look carefully. no gateway composition beats mm cost for cost. period. the best you can do are forcefields to make the battlefield slightly more even, but those come in finite supply and are expensive. Zealot sentry is really strong and beats MM at many stages of the game with proper forcefields. Not to mention archons are techincally gateway units, and archon zealot is a staple of the matchup. I play gateway heavy most of the time vs terran.
That's fine. But once ghost(EMP) or Medvacs(pickups) come into play the value of GW is greatly diminished due to the drop in FF effectiveness. That is if your playing at a reasonable skill level where Terrans will actually use ghost. If not not, yeah "Zeal Sentry good".
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On October 12 2011 11:46 Flamingo777 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 10:56 ambrosiaa wrote:On October 12 2011 10:40 Flamingo777 wrote:
Regardless of how Protoss lacks a certain amount of a "Defender's advantage", it's unique offensive advantage clearly makes up for it. The defensive deficiency is not gamebreaking enough to cause a significant hinderance to the race itself, as we see many Protoss players being able to survive into the midgame and endgame, where they can indeed make use of perhaps some of the most powerful, underutilized offensive tactics brought about by the Warp Prism. Actually, this warpgate thing may be the reason why protoss are currently 'suffering' especially at the high levels. It does seem quite unfair that offensively every race is even, but when it comes to defending Protoss is weaker. I'm arguing that Protoss may have a slight (I'm probably underestimating it, actually) advantage offensively where the others have an advantage in the early game defense department. By having the ability to have a moving rally point, that can go behind opponent's defenses and immediately warp in units (no ~30 second tier one build times) that when fails, only yields a loss of 200 minerals (which is nothing in an endgame economy) versus a full medivac or overlord where the drop failing player loses a significant amount more, sometimes up to 600 minerals 300 gas and around 10 supply? I think this is an extremely unique function of both harass and immediate army reinforcement, anywhere on the map. I think that it's at least enough of an advantage offensively in the mid-late game to argue that Protoss AT LEAST has a slight advantage there where the other two races have a slight defensive advantage in the early-midgame due to structural functions (disregarding army unit functions such as the defensive capabilities of the siege tank and raven, forcefields, and perhaps even fungal growth).
I'm having a hard time understanding where you are getting your math from...If you want to play the number game, I don't know why you are comparing a warp-in of... 2 zealots to .. a 2 medivac + 4 marauder drop? (The only thing I can figure that comes out to 600/300.. Now this ability to warp what, lets say you warp in 6 zealots into your opponents base which a) are vulnerable while warping in, b) actually don't warp instantly, it takes 5 seconds to warp them in. And whether you are or are not using a warp prism, with stimmed marines out on the field, unless your prism has speed, im gonna bet your units are pretty fucked. Now lets say your 5 rax production churns out 4 marauders and 2 marines at the same time this drop hits. With a little bit of micro this wave of production turns this 600 mineral investment that maybe killed like 2 or 3 scvs into a collosal waste of time, energy and money. Now lets take 8 stimmed marines stimming from outside a Protosses field of vision into a full saturated probe line. In like 2 seconds flat, 10 probes are dead, and you are scrambling to figure out what to do. You warp in some gateways and zealots which either die on warp-in or he just picks up when hes outnumbered and leaves. OK maybe you have blink and you catch his medivac and hes more careful in the future.
The only reason protoss has the ability to warp in and to place FFs is pretty much because their units just are not cost effective. I don't care how far you can warp in your 5 stalkers if your base is being overrun by 7000 zerglings. Without warp-in protoss wouldnt be able to move ANYWHERE around the map with stim/conc/and lightspeedlings. Has their sick nasty warp in advantage had them picking them up their fair share of tournament titles lately? -_-
TL:DR: Warp ins are not instant, and you need a pylon or a warp prism, which aren't always the easiest things to keep alive. Please stop pretending Terran drops aren't the best thing since sliced bread (I play Terran and ill admit it)
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On October 12 2011 07:02 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:52 crms wrote:On October 12 2011 06:29 eYeball wrote:
Shield Battery won't change ghosts effect in PvT, maybe more likely in PvZ and PvP.
Regarding the mothership in my eyes you shouldn't be able to neutral parasite it, fungal it or emp it. It's a hero unit. the mothership shouldn't exist in multiplayer. it's a joke unit. just make protoss not be terrible and one dimensional and remove the gd mothership. Mothership is the only way to win lategame PvZ
On October 12 2011 06:52 crms wrote:
the mothership shouldn't exist in multiplayer. it's a joke unit. just make protoss not be terrible and one dimensional and remove the gd mothership
guess you missed the bolded part. -,-
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On October 12 2011 13:21 ShamTao wrote:
I can only really wrap my head around your logic in the context of PvP, where the defenders advantage is lost to any opponent of a protoss.
If we assume a perfectly macroing terran (Zerg) player (no supply blocks, constant production) versus a Protoss player, also perfectly macroing (not missing warp cycles, no blocks, etc), Protoss still has their defenders advantage, as things are warped in on-location, and Terran (Zerg) still has to rally.
The only notable difference is the lack of cannon-building at Gateway tech, but that's not a problem with warpgate, really.
Am I missing something?
I guess it seems to me that, while the reinforcement mechanic works defensively and (better) offensively (than compared to the other races), that doesn't detract from having the shorter rally as an inherent advantage. But it sounds like you implied that it wasn't, which is where I'm confused on your point.
Here's the way I look at it:
Because of the warp in mechanic, Protoss is designed to have EVERYTHING in a fight. You'll often hear commentators berate players for not building a more forward pylon before an engagement. Protoss seems to be balanced around the fact that they're assumed to be able to reinforce mid battle. Awesome ability to reinforce is awesome, but it's compensated by gateway units being generally weaker and less cost effective than other races units. (Possibly false vs Zerg, not really any question vs Terran). So, what's this mean in terms of defenders advantage?
Well, let's say it's a PvT and there's an engagement in the middle of the map. Both players are good, so they are of course keeping up with their macro. If Protoss wins, Terran (who is good at macro) will have reinforcements already built back at his base, with more on the way. Unless Protoss wins the battle by a large margin, they aren't going to be able to just waltz into their opponents base and win, there's still more fighting to do.
Now let's say Terran wins. The argument that this thread makes is that Protoss is designed to warp units directly into a battle, in fact, they're balanced in such a way that it's needed. So if Protoss loses the army, they have nothing back home. Even if they lose by a narrow margin, they've already committed all of their forces to the fight, and have nothing to stop their opponent from just killing them.
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On October 12 2011 13:29 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 10:07 Sveet wrote:On October 12 2011 10:00 Shiori wrote:On October 12 2011 09:50 Tula wrote:On October 12 2011 09:10 Fig wrote:On October 12 2011 09:01 UncleOwnage wrote:
I really don't get how people can say they agree with this.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but the whole argument is wrong.
You say the protoss has no significant defender's advantage because of the warp gate mechanic, but consider this;
When being attacked, the protoss warps in units at his base, meaning they are instantly ready for the fight while his opponent has units on the long rally move. This creates exactly the same effect as when a terran has units pop out of his barracks. Enemy reinforcements are still in transit while yours arrive instantly.
You must be able to see that the protoss does not lose anything because he warps in units in his base compared to them popping out of a gateway. Warp-in only messes with the offense of protoss.
The ONLY issue comes in PvP actually, which you disregarded. Here the attacker has no rally, meaning the defender's advantage of rally is negated.
Now to determine if protoss was balanced around being able to warp in units in the battle (and thus are weaker somehow, this could be the 5 sec warp-in period where units are vulnerable) is another matter and could be investigated.
TL;DR: OP is wrong, no defender's advantage is lost because you warp-in in your base (because enemies still have long rally). Warp gate is a purely offensive buff. The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units. Frankly i've yet to see that opinion proven... Protoss units require a tad more micro than Terran units (less than zerg units on the other hand) but if they are microed they are just as strong in each phase of the game. If they are microed well (good forcefields, guardian shield and decent targetfiring with the stalkers) they are stronger than any Zerg or Terran unit at that phase. Unupgraded gateway units can trade cost effectively against any Terran barrack unit. Once the upgrades for Terrans start to kick in (conc shell and stim specifically) things get a bit more difficult until the twilight council upgrades can be researched then they lean towards the protoss side. The Warpgate is a key mechanic to the protoss race, yes it "feels" as if protoss has less defenders advantadge because they are simply used to the fact that they always warp in units close to the battle. There is only a very specific timing window when Terran has researched stim and protoss doesn't have any Tech out themselves (colossi, archons, charge, blink) where protoss is vulnerable. But such timing windows are part of every matchup, you could list a ton of them for ZvP, TvP, TvZ as well if you look carefully. no gateway composition beats mm cost for cost. period. the best you can do are forcefields to make the battlefield slightly more even, but those come in finite supply and are expensive. Zealot sentry is really strong and beats MM at many stages of the game with proper forcefields. Not to mention archons are techincally gateway units, and archon zealot is a staple of the matchup. I play gateway heavy most of the time vs terran. That's fine. But once ghost(EMP) or Medvacs(pickups) come into play the value of GW is greatly diminished due to the drop in FF effectiveness. That is if your playing at a reasonable skill level where Terrans will actually use ghost. If not not, yeah "Zeal Sentry good".
High diamond matching vs masters players. please leave skill level out of this.
3/3 zealots and a few archons deal and tank a lot of damage vs marine/marauder. Even if somehow all your templar got EMPed (because you clumped them like a noob) it takes the MM a long time to actually kill charge lots in high numbers. Stalkers deal quite a bit of damage, and more importantly they should be used to snipe medivacs. Ghosts really aren't that good after EMP is gone. If you microd correctly and didn't get your templar EMPd (possibly by moving 1 templar forward to feedback approaching ghosts) you then are able to deal a lot of AoE damage.
Personally I play the match-up with both collosus and templar/archon, but stalker/zealot is still the meat of the army and is very powerful.
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is there a name for a build where you just crush your opponent
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On October 12 2011 11:00 MuseMike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 10:07 Sveet wrote:On October 12 2011 10:00 Shiori wrote:On October 12 2011 09:50 Tula wrote:On October 12 2011 09:10 Fig wrote:On October 12 2011 09:01 UncleOwnage wrote:
I really don't get how people can say they agree with this.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but the whole argument is wrong.
You say the protoss has no significant defender's advantage because of the warp gate mechanic, but consider this;
When being attacked, the protoss warps in units at his base, meaning they are instantly ready for the fight while his opponent has units on the long rally move. This creates exactly the same effect as when a terran has units pop out of his barracks. Enemy reinforcements are still in transit while yours arrive instantly.
You must be able to see that the protoss does not lose anything because he warps in units in his base compared to them popping out of a gateway. Warp-in only messes with the offense of protoss.
The ONLY issue comes in PvP actually, which you disregarded. Here the attacker has no rally, meaning the defender's advantage of rally is negated.
Now to determine if protoss was balanced around being able to warp in units in the battle (and thus are weaker somehow, this could be the 5 sec warp-in period where units are vulnerable) is another matter and could be investigated.
TL;DR: OP is wrong, no defender's advantage is lost because you warp-in in your base (because enemies still have long rally). Warp gate is a purely offensive buff. The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units. Frankly i've yet to see that opinion proven... Protoss units require a tad more micro than Terran units (less than zerg units on the other hand) but if they are microed they are just as strong in each phase of the game. If they are microed well (good forcefields, guardian shield and decent targetfiring with the stalkers) they are stronger than any Zerg or Terran unit at that phase. Unupgraded gateway units can trade cost effectively against any Terran barrack unit. Once the upgrades for Terrans start to kick in (conc shell and stim specifically) things get a bit more difficult until the twilight council upgrades can be researched then they lean towards the protoss side. The Warpgate is a key mechanic to the protoss race, yes it "feels" as if protoss has less defenders advantadge because they are simply used to the fact that they always warp in units close to the battle. There is only a very specific timing window when Terran has researched stim and protoss doesn't have any Tech out themselves (colossi, archons, charge, blink) where protoss is vulnerable. But such timing windows are part of every matchup, you could list a ton of them for ZvP, TvP, TvZ as well if you look carefully. no gateway composition beats mm cost for cost. period. the best you can do are forcefields to make the battlefield slightly more even, but those come in finite supply and are expensive. Zealot sentry is really strong and beats MM at many stages of the game with proper forcefields. Not to mention archons are techincally gateway units, and archon zealot is a staple of the matchup. I play gateway heavy most of the time vs terran. Ghosts are a rax unit then too. Ghosts destroy any and all gateway units.
bull....
Ghosts DIE to any and all gateway units 1on1 unless you have enough energy for snipe. EMP can turn the tide of a battle but so can storms.
To the poster above it, zealot sentry deals with barracks units easily for cost as long as you forcefield behind them. If you can't forcefield behind them what are you doing engaging in open fields at that point of the game?
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IMO, if you scout accordingly, and now when you consider Blizzard's nerf on ramp-vision range. In offensive situations it is not an issue. I do understand where you're coming from, however I think that if it ever imbalanced the game it does not anymore.
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EPT
