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On October 12 2011 06:47 FeyFey wrote:mmm i still like warpgates and i think toss has enough defenders advantages. (i mean you get 10 second build time units when switching from gate to warp). The biggest is probably the stalker being able to outrun everything so you can basically siege the opponent from the start. The Other is force fields and shield regeneration. I like that the defenders advantage is so different from the other races  . (not a static one)
How is that a defenders advantage when, Protoss gets only comparable build times to the T/Z Units? The Advantage and Balance of Warpgates is that when you have your whole Army at+the additional warp in the opponent can still hold.
In a defensive non all-in style you have now the same situation, you have less units as Protoss (because you have less Gateways), but no defensive structure that makes up for the lack of army supply, we can only hope to deley the push long enough to get an additional boosted warp-in cycles. What on maps where this is not viable?
That the core reason this thread exists.
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Well I think that warp in is good defensively because you can instantly reinforce your units and also if you are locked in your base all you need to do is sneaks a probe out to make a pylon or to get a warp prism to do a powerful drop, all while being able to defend your base. Also gateways are much more useful as walls now because of the warp gates, just press "Y" and you can instantly warp in as many units as you have ready gateways. Finally usually you won't have just gateway units, you will also have robo or stargate units backing them up.
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well your army supply is more efficient due to the units being stronger.
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On October 12 2011 07:12 Brainiak wrote:
One crazy question :
If cannons were available after gateway, would that break the game? I mean cannon rushes are easily defended by protoss who go forge themselves? and terrans obviously have no problem defending cannon rushes, and zergs always go for pool first so that is not a problem
Zergs wouldn't like having to patrol a drone at there ramp and contsantly having the threat of cannons blocking there expo every game, but with protoss FFE so much then it really wouldn't change too much imo. It's an idea I guess, I don't think cannons are really very good though. I feel like all it would solve is expoing early in PvZ without getting behind in tech.
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also consider my question about cannons available after gateway would break the game
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On October 12 2011 07:26 Lore-Fighting wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:12 Brainiak wrote:
One crazy question :
If cannons were available after gateway, would that break the game? I mean cannon rushes are easily defended by protoss who go forge themselves? and terrans obviously have no problem defending cannon rushes, and zergs always go for pool first so that is not a problem Zergs wouldn't like having to patrol a drone at there ramp and contsantly having the threat of cannons blocking there expo every game, but with protoss FFE so much then it really wouldn't change too much imo. It's an idea I guess, I don't think cannons are really very good though. I feel like all it would solve is expoing early in PvZ without getting behind in tech.
Yeah thats true. Its basicly an invitation to any protoss player to get a fast expo without sacrificing anything. I dont think that zerg can compete with such a protoss
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On October 12 2011 07:26 BlueIronGuy wrote:
Well I think that warp in is good defensively because you can instantly reinforce your units and also if you are locked in your base all you need to do is sneaks a probe out to make a pylon or to get a warp prism to do a powerful drop, all while being able to defend your base. Also gateways are much more useful as walls now because of the warp gates, just press "Y" and you can instantly warp in as many units as you have ready gateways. Finally usually you won't have just gateway units, you will also have robo or stargate units backing them up.
Really? You think it's good because i can instantly reinforce my units? ANY race can do that while playing defense. Playing defense as zerg or terran your units pop out right in your base too. Point invalid. I could say the same about terran or zerg on the drop thing too. Drop 4 banelings in the enemies mineral line, do a rine/rauder drop, again point invalid. It's not press y and i can instantly make units. I have to wait 10 seconds for the gateway to change over. I also have a cooldown between warpins, it's not as if i can warp 20 zealots off one warpgate.
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Honestly, warpgate and forcefield are the 2 best defender's advantages in the game. I really don't know what all you guys are fussing about. You don't have to make units until a push is literally at your ramp. You can FF all day and continue warping in units faster than Z or T can reinforce. You have shields that quickly and fully regenerate. INSTANT UNITS, honestly how do you complain about that? At least Terran/Zerg are forced to make units preemptively because you know, it actually takes time to build units...
There are even more insane advantages to warpgate but its irrelevant to keep going... Of all the things people can complain about with toss and this is it? 50/50 for the best up in the game >.> be happy...
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I've never liked the warp-in mechanic : / removes a defenders advantage for the opponent too as well as the defensive issues for the protoss
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I'm not sure I think warp-in has broken protoss... But one thing it has ruined for me is how awesome it was in Brood War when you're playing protoss, you're in the middle of a big fight, and you go back to your main and you see 10 shiny new speed zealots charging single-file down your ramp, it just looks awesome
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On October 12 2011 08:38 SupLilSon wrote:
Honestly, warpgate and forcefield are the 2 best defender's advantages in the game. I really don't know what all you guys are fussing about. You don't have to make units until a push is literally at your ramp. You can FF all day and continue warping in units faster than Z or T can reinforce. You have shields that quickly and fully regenerate. INSTANT UNITS, honestly how do you complain about that? At least Terran/Zerg are forced to make units preemptively because you know, it actually takes time to build units...
There are even more insane advantages to warpgate but its irrelevant to keep going... Of all the things people can complain about with toss and this is it? 50/50 for the best up in the game >.> be happy...
you obviously never played protoss higher than bronze league.
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I really don't get how people can say they agree with this.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but the whole argument is wrong.
You say the protoss has no significant defender's advantage because of the warp gate mechanic, but consider this;
When being attacked, the protoss warps in units at his base, meaning they are instantly ready for the fight while his opponent has units on the long rally move. This creates exactly the same effect as when a terran has units pop out of his barracks. Enemy reinforcements are still in transit while yours arrive instantly.
You must be able to see that the protoss does not lose anything because he warps in units in his base compared to them popping out of a gateway. Warp-in only messes with the offense of protoss.
The ONLY issue comes in PvP actually, which you disregarded. Here the attacker has no rally, meaning the defender's advantage of rally is negated.
Now to determine if protoss was balanced around being able to warp in units in the battle (and thus are weaker somehow, this could be the 5 sec warp-in period where units are vulnerable) is another matter and could be investigated.
TL;DR: OP is wrong, no defender's advantage is lost because you warp-in in your base (because enemies still have long rally). Warp gate is a purely offensive buff.
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On October 12 2011 09:01 UncleOwnage wrote:
I really don't get how people can say they agree with this.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but the whole argument is wrong.
You say the protoss has no significant defender's advantage because of the warp gate mechanic, but consider this;
When being attacked, the protoss warps in units at his base, meaning they are instantly ready for the fight while his opponent has units on the long rally move. This creates exactly the same effect as when a terran has units pop out of his barracks. Enemy reinforcements are still in transit while yours arrive instantly.
You must be able to see that the protoss does not lose anything because he warps in units in his base compared to them popping out of a gateway. Warp-in only messes with the offense of protoss.
The ONLY issue comes in PvP actually, which you disregarded. Here the attacker has no rally, meaning the defender's advantage of rally is negated.
Now to determine if protoss was balanced around being able to warp in units in the battle (and thus are weaker somehow, this could be the 5 sec warp-in period where units are vulnerable) is another matter and could be investigated.
TL;DR: OP is wrong, no defender's advantage is lost because you warp-in in your base (because enemies still have long rally). Warp gate is a purely offensive buff.
The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units.
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On October 12 2011 08:58 chrissummers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 08:38 SupLilSon wrote:
Honestly, warpgate and forcefield are the 2 best defender's advantages in the game. I really don't know what all you guys are fussing about. You don't have to make units until a push is literally at your ramp. You can FF all day and continue warping in units faster than Z or T can reinforce. You have shields that quickly and fully regenerate. INSTANT UNITS, honestly how do you complain about that? At least Terran/Zerg are forced to make units preemptively because you know, it actually takes time to build units...
There are even more insane advantages to warpgate but its irrelevant to keep going... Of all the things people can complain about with toss and this is it? 50/50 for the best up in the game >.> be happy... you obviously never played protoss higher than bronze league.
Great post buddy. I played random up to high diamond league and had by far the most wins with protoss. Do you want to elaborate a bit? If not I'll just continue to assume that you are a troll or a bronze leaguer himself.
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Lol warpgate doesnt remove defenders advantage at all. If you want to compare the difference between warping in on a proxy pylon and warping in your base as "you have no defenders advantage", you are wrong. You lose nothing. You GAIN the ability to have defenders advantage in terms of rallying at any place on the map you choose.
Do tanks not give defenders advantage because when you siege the opponent's base theres no difference than when you siege behind your wall? NO you are imposing a defender's advantage remotely.
The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units.
what? blizzard did no such thing. If you want to complain about protoss units being worse in 1:1 fights with the other races, go ahead, but you are stupid. The game is very balanced.
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On October 12 2011 09:33 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 08:58 chrissummers wrote:On October 12 2011 08:38 SupLilSon wrote:
Honestly, warpgate and forcefield are the 2 best defender's advantages in the game. I really don't know what all you guys are fussing about. You don't have to make units until a push is literally at your ramp. You can FF all day and continue warping in units faster than Z or T can reinforce. You have shields that quickly and fully regenerate. INSTANT UNITS, honestly how do you complain about that? At least Terran/Zerg are forced to make units preemptively because you know, it actually takes time to build units...
There are even more insane advantages to warpgate but its irrelevant to keep going... Of all the things people can complain about with toss and this is it? 50/50 for the best up in the game >.> be happy... you obviously never played protoss higher than bronze league. Great post buddy. I played random up to high diamond league and had by far the most wins with protoss. Do you want to elaborate a bit? If not I'll just continue to assume that you are a troll or a bronze leaguer yourself with no valuable input.
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On October 12 2011 09:35 Sveet wrote:Lol warpgate doesnt remove defenders advantage at all. If you want to compare the difference between warping in on a proxy pylon and warping in your base as "you have no defenders advantage", you are wrong. You lose nothing. You GAIN the ability to have defenders advantage in terms of rallying at any place on the map you choose. Do tanks not give defenders advantage because when you siege the opponent's base theres no difference than when you siege behind your wall? NO you are imposing a defender's advantage remotely. Show nested quote +The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units. what? blizzard did no such thing. If you want to complain about protoss units being worse in 1:1 fights with the other races, go ahead, but you are stupid. The game is very balanced.
Obviously Protoss should be able to instantly create units anywhere they have psy with no downsides.... wtf blizz.
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On October 12 2011 09:10 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 09:01 UncleOwnage wrote:
I really don't get how people can say they agree with this.
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but the whole argument is wrong.
You say the protoss has no significant defender's advantage because of the warp gate mechanic, but consider this;
When being attacked, the protoss warps in units at his base, meaning they are instantly ready for the fight while his opponent has units on the long rally move. This creates exactly the same effect as when a terran has units pop out of his barracks. Enemy reinforcements are still in transit while yours arrive instantly.
You must be able to see that the protoss does not lose anything because he warps in units in his base compared to them popping out of a gateway. Warp-in only messes with the offense of protoss.
The ONLY issue comes in PvP actually, which you disregarded. Here the attacker has no rally, meaning the defender's advantage of rally is negated.
Now to determine if protoss was balanced around being able to warp in units in the battle (and thus are weaker somehow, this could be the 5 sec warp-in period where units are vulnerable) is another matter and could be investigated.
TL;DR: OP is wrong, no defender's advantage is lost because you warp-in in your base (because enemies still have long rally). Warp gate is a purely offensive buff. The point of the OP is that Blizzard purposely made gateway units weaker than core units of the other races because they can warp in far away. And if you are warping in at home to defend like a terran or zerg makes units, then you are at a disadvantage because your units are weaker than those terran or zerg units.
Frankly i've yet to see that opinion proven... Protoss units require a tad more micro than Terran units (less than zerg units on the other hand) but if they are microed they are just as strong in each phase of the game. If they are microed well (good forcefields, guardian shield and decent targetfiring with the stalkers) they are stronger than any Zerg or Terran unit at that phase. Unupgraded gateway units can trade cost effectively against any Terran barrack unit. Once the upgrades for Terrans start to kick in (conc shell and stim specifically) things get a bit more difficult until the twilight council upgrades can be researched then they lean towards the protoss side.
The Warpgate is a key mechanic to the protoss race, yes it "feels" as if protoss has less defenders advantadge because they are simply used to the fact that they always warp in units close to the battle. There is only a very specific timing window when Terran has researched stim and protoss doesn't have any Tech out themselves (colossi, archons, charge, blink) where protoss is vulnerable. But such timing windows are part of every matchup, you could list a ton of them for ZvP, TvP, TvZ as well if you look carefully.
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I would love to see gateways to get some sort of buff so you would actually have some benefit (faster production? Khaydarin Amulet for gateway only?) from not changing into warpgates.
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"Broke" protoss? I dont see how it broke it, seeing how the warp mechanic was introduced from the very beginning of starcraft 2 (or atleast the furthest back that is publicly known). If you are trying to compare protoss from bw to sc2, then that is just being unfair, since they are two different games (even though they are the same style, characters, objectives).
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EPT
