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Keilah
731 Posts
I also kinda like the idea of nexus/gateways affecting warpins somehow, like maybe you can only warp in a certain (large) radius from a nexus/gate, or the farther you are the longer it takes, etc etc. As it is now I agree that the warpin mechanic is kind of just bad and I don't like it very much. BTW I am protoss. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
Thought that was a good one. So my bad. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On September 16 2011 20:27 FFW_Rude wrote: So no one found the idea of making a map with invert building times on warp and gates valuable ? Thought that was a good one. So my bad. 1) It would break early game - back to 2gate against Zerg and Terran would die without walling. 2) After early game, everyone would convert everything to warpgates and build one more of them to make up for the nerfed buildtime. Also, it's been suggested a billion times despite it being obvious Blizzard wants gateways to disappear - the tech is only researched so you can't warp zealots into your opponents base in 2 minutes. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Protoss has four big defenders advantages as well: -) (the biggest of all defenders advantages in all of the game) push timing: an attacking army always is an army, that doesn not implement recently mined ressouces. It can always only be so strong, as the ressources mined when the push started to move over the map, meaning usually that a defender is ~30+sec ahead in a battle. That's another round of units. That might be the difference between having a tech unit (storm, colossus, more forcefields), or not having them. -) workers: you can still pull your workers -) opponents reinforcements: they still have to run all over the map -) stray buildings: this one gets mostly forgotten, but whenever it is not open space,some units will start shooting buildings (or overlords, or whatever), which means the attacking army will lose some firepower, compared to fighting home or on open space. ofc in PvP in warp gate fights, you lose some of those advantages | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On September 16 2011 20:33 Yaotzin wrote: 1) It would break early game - back to 2gate against Zerg and Terran would die without walling. 2) After early game, everyone would convert everything to warpgates and build one more of them to make up for the nerfed buildtime. Also, it's been suggested a billion times despite it being obvious Blizzard wants gateways to disappear - the tech is only researched so you can't warp zealots into your opponents base in 2 minutes. Duh i forgot about the 2gate build | ||
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kash000
Canada25 Posts
Some ideas (each separately or might combine elements): 1) make warp gate upgrade very fast but warp gates build units just as fast or slower than building from gateways -> you trade the ability to warp anywhere vs faster build time and easier macro 2) make warp gates available from beginning of game. Time to change gateways into warp gates = time to build a unit -> tradeoff flexibility later for units now. Early game is more gate heavy and late game you might convert everything into warp gates when you have enough of an army (e.g. Before a push so you can reinforce) I personally would enjoy these kinds of decisions more and they could allow for changes in Protoss gameplay. Comments? | ||
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Nolispe
Greece6 Posts
Perhaps allow the Cybernetics Core while being Chrono boosted to create at aura with x range (siege tank range perhaps) that will do this. This might help PvP since the attacking toss proxy pylon has to be further away. The chrono boost requirement will stop this from being a complete counter but also require micro and timing to block off the attackers warp ins. | ||
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TORTOISE
United States515 Posts
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SnNBroadcasting
United Kingdom1 Post
When playing as a Terran or Zerg, you naturally have several advantages as a defender before you even build a unit. First, your ramp - the narrow choke allows your units to have a concave against a bunched up pack trying to push its way up the ramp. Second, your production - your rally distances are much, much shorter than if you were out in the middle of the map, so you can produce less units and still defend, because your second wave comes quickly. Also, both Terrans and Zergs have access to a defensive structure after building their first basic unit production structure. The spine crawler only requires a spawning pool, and the bunker only requires a barracks. These structures can be produced as a reaction to a scouted push in order to provide you with an additional advantage as a defender, which can help mitigating the loss of the ramp advantage when you expand. _________________________________________________________________________________ This is absolutely retarded and another example of Protoss complaining because the ludicrous 3base deathball no longer works, also not taking into account how 1 thing balances against another, you mention that Terran and Zerg have an advantage in 'the ramp', first off, so do protoss meaning that comment is completely void, Second, The production advantage of being closer to your base, you say that T and Z have this advantage but protoss can warp up field meaning that actually Protoss have an offensive advantage, again balanced by the T and Z faster reinforcements while defending. Third, You mention that T and Z have a 'tier 1' defensive structure in which only a Spawning pool or a barracks have to be made, your again forgetting to take into account that Protoss have a defensive structure that shoots up, (yeah so does bunker but it requires units that shoot up so it balances in that regard) meaning that the reason your cannon requires a forge is because the forge is the equivalent to zergs Evolution chamber which zerg requires to build spores which are required to shoot up, then you go on to say that you can build these structures in response to scouting an attack, and remain strong despite losing your ramp for defence. This comment is pointless, you are the most stereotypical Protoss i've ever had the pleasure of correcting. L2P | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
- Warp-in could still be used defensively but would require a midgame unit to be used on offense. This would eliminate the 4-gate and 6-gate before robotics. - Warp Prisms would suddenly be not just cute but actually indispensable to have with your army, like Medivacs. - The Shield Battery could then be introduced without it being overpowered if set up at a forward pylon - Warpgate Research would no longer monopolize the Cybernetics Core, allowing Hallucination to be researched much earlier. - To compensate in the early game, stalker and sentry build time from the gateway could be reduced. I realize that this might be a bit radical even for an expansion pack, but other than that I think it is a really good idea. Thoughts? | ||
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PTZ.772
5 Posts
Protoss DO have a rally advantage when defending. Defensive warpin is the exact same thing as shorter rallies for the other races. Protoss on the offense have an EXTRA rally advantage that the other races don't have. This doesn't mean that they lose the defender's rally advantage because of this... they enjoy an advantage (in this regard) under both scenarios. | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On September 18 2011 00:33 SnNBroadcasting wrote: . You seem sort of like a troll... There are more decent ways to make your point. Also the OP claims that not only are ramps available to toss, but they become the "only hope" per say- using sentry micro. He lumps it with T&Z to be exhaustive about listing all of their options as compared to Protoss. So your first point is well thought out but a cheap shot nonetheless because you didn't give the OP a chance on your readthrough. Other issue is, when did he mention a lategame disadvantage? Otherwise, I agree with your static defense point entirely. Even though Marines are the first unit a Terran gets. Those marines make the cost of a bunker, what, double that of a cannon? Double and 50? When playing as a Terran or Zerg, you naturally have several advantages as a defender before you even build a unit. First, your ramp - the narrow choke allows your units to have a concave against a bunched up pack trying to push its way up the ramp. Second, your production - your rally distances are much, much shorter than if you were out in the middle of the map, so you can produce less units and still defend, because your second wave comes quickly. Also, both Terrans and Zergs have access to a defensive structure after building their first basic unit production structure. The spine crawler only requires a spawning pool, and the bunker only requires a barracks. These structures can be produced as a reaction to a scouted push in order to provide you with an additional advantage as a defender, which can help mitigating the loss of the ramp advantage when you expand. _________________________________________________________________________________ This is absolutely retarded and another example of Protoss complaining because the ludicrous 3base deathball no longer works, also not taking into account how 1 thing balances against another, you mention that Terran and Zerg have an advantage in 'the ramp', first off, so do protoss meaning that comment is completely void, Second, The production advantage of being closer to your base, you say that T and Z have this advantage but protoss can warp up field meaning that actually Protoss have an offensive advantage, again balanced by the T and Z faster reinforcements while defending. Third, You mention that T and Z have a 'tier 1' defensive structure in which only a Spawning pool or a barracks have to be made, your again forgetting to take into account that Protoss have a defensive structure that shoots up, (yeah so does bunker but it requires units that shoot up so it balances in that regard) meaning that the reason your cannon requires a forge is because the forge is the equivalent to zergs Evolution chamber which zerg requires to build spores which are required to shoot up, then you go on to say that you can build these structures in response to scouting an attack, and remain strong despite losing your ramp for defence. This comment is pointless, you are the most stereotypical Protoss i've ever had the pleasure of correcting. L2P Last thing before I back off for fear you are a well known broadcaster and out of acknowledgement of my "small contribute" hypocrisy either way. You use the word "retarded" often enough and in such a way as to make me wonder if you are really very mature. | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On October 11 2011 05:25 PTZ.772 wrote: About the warpin rally point... I think you're looking at it a bit backwards. Protoss DO have a rally advantage when defending. Defensive warpin is the exact same thing as shorter rallies for the other races. Protoss on the offense have an EXTRA rally advantage that the other races don't have. This doesn't mean that they lose the defender's rally advantage because of this... they enjoy an advantage (in this regard) under both scenarios. This. I agree completely even having lost in exactly the way the op describes more than once. It is great for crisis response. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On September 16 2011 20:33 Yaotzin wrote: 1) It would break early game - back to 2gate against Zerg and Terran would die without walling. 2) After early game, everyone would convert everything to warpgates and build one more of them to make up for the nerfed buildtime. Also, it's been suggested a billion times despite it being obvious Blizzard wants gateways to disappear - the tech is only researched so you can't warp zealots into your opponents base in 2 minutes. 1) It would break early game? Really? You just tweak the times a bit and it's fine. 2) Possibly, but you don't know that unless it is tested. Besides, it doesn't matter if Blizzard wants gateways to disappear if it helps strategic variety and gives amazing macro players reason to not do warp gates. | ||
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XRaDiiX
Canada1730 Posts
It just comes down that unit efficiency. In a defensive context, a Protoss gateway army is weaker than a Terran or Zerg army. I'm not saying that gateway armies are weaker in general! Just in a defensive context, in terms of efficiency. This part of the OP's post i do not agree with one bit. A Defending protoss can abuse building chokes extremely well against Zerg in most situations even when Broods are out. because of their Cannon walls and better ranged units etc. This is why a 3 base Protoss can sometimes Crush a 5 base Zerg... And if the Protoss Micro is Superb can Abuse that much more than a Zerg Army. Protoss may not be good/or efficient at defending vs Terran but Zerg have to throw alot of units away....--- actually a ton if they want to break a Protoss who defends Properly | ||
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XRaDiiX
Canada1730 Posts
On September 18 2011 00:33 SnNBroadcasting wrote: When playing as a Terran or Zerg, you naturally have several advantages as a defender before you even build a unit. First, your ramp - the narrow choke allows your units to have a concave against a bunched up pack trying to push its way up the ramp. Second, your production - your rally distances are much, much shorter than if you were out in the middle of the map, so you can produce less units and still defend, because your second wave comes quickly. Also, both Terrans and Zergs have access to a defensive structure after building their first basic unit production structure. The spine crawler only requires a spawning pool, and the bunker only requires a barracks. These structures can be produced as a reaction to a scouted push in order to provide you with an additional advantage as a defender, which can help mitigating the loss of the ramp advantage when you expand. _________________________________________________________________________________ This is absolutely retarded and another example of Protoss complaining because the ludicrous 3base deathball no longer works, also not taking into account how 1 thing balances against another, you mention that Terran and Zerg have an advantage in 'the ramp', first off, so do protoss meaning that comment is completely void, Second, The production advantage of being closer to your base, you say that T and Z have this advantage but protoss can warp up field meaning that actually Protoss have an offensive advantage, again balanced by the T and Z faster reinforcements while defending. Third, You mention that T and Z have a 'tier 1' defensive structure in which only a Spawning pool or a barracks have to be made, your again forgetting to take into account that Protoss have a defensive structure that shoots up, (yeah so does bunker but it requires units that shoot up so it balances in that regard) meaning that the reason your cannon requires a forge is because the forge is the equivalent to zergs Evolution chamber which zerg requires to build spores which are required to shoot up, then you go on to say that you can build these structures in response to scouting an attack, and remain strong despite losing your ramp for defence. This comment is pointless, you are the most stereotypical Protoss i've ever had the pleasure of correcting. L2P Very True my friend well spoken  ... in many Situations Zerg are at the Disadvantage vs protoss at the Ramp (depending on Army size and Composition)But most of the time Zerg are at a Disadvantage in this Situation ... Not so much Terran. But yeah i noticed that in the OP's Post as well.. | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On October 11 2011 15:31 XRaDiiX wrote: . Also Terran can give Zerg a lot of grief should the Zerg attack too early. I think the OP is noticing a characteristic change between races and calling it IMBA for a large part of his analysis. Dissimilarity with an equal chance of victory is what separated Starcraft from "Warcraft in Space". So we occasionally run into differences that may seem unfair, such as slightly more difficult early defense for Protoss and slightly more difficult early aggression for Zerg. One could also complain about early detection for Zerg or... Or... Well I don't really know what Terran can complain about right now. But there's probably something. But warp tech is cool, useful, and oh, did I mention cool? Because coolness is a huge part of mainstream RTS fanfare, no? Still don't completely disagree with OP though. I want Sheild battery because I'm Protoss and therefore always want almost IMBA things given to Protoss.Very True my friend well spoken ... in many Situations Zerg are at the Disadvantage vs protoss at the Ramp (depending on Army size and Composition)But most of the time Zerg are at a Disadvantage in this Situation ... Not so much Terran. But yeah i noticed that in the OP's Post as well.. | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
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Zambozo
United Kingdom63 Posts
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Lucky Strike
Canada34 Posts
On October 05 2011 06:07 eugalp wrote: I really really like the idea others mentioned to only allow warp-ins around Nexi and Warp Prims. Why? - Warp-in could still be used defensively but would require a midgame unit to be used on offense. This would eliminate the 4-gate and 6-gate before robotics. - Warp Prisms would suddenly be not just cute but actually indispensable to have with your army, like Medivacs. - The Shield Battery could then be introduced without it being overpowered if set up at a forward pylon - Warpgate Research would no longer monopolize the Cybernetics Core, allowing Hallucination to be researched much earlier. - To compensate in the early game, stalker and sentry build time from the gateway could be reduced. I realize that this might be a bit radical even for an expansion pack, but other than that I think it is a really good idea. Thoughts? Some interesting ideas for sure. However, the one problem I do see is that building frequent Warp Prisms (because let's face it, some are going to be destroyed over the course of a match) really would stress the Robotics Facility which already is over-stressed when you are already trying to build Colossus and Observers whenever they get sniped. Aside from that, some neat points to be considered. =) | ||
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