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On September 16 2011 02:59 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 02:56 getter1 wrote:
just throwing this out there, because it may just be retarded in the end...
But what if there was added incentive to keep gateways as gateways? Why is it that warpgates are a must in all situations for gateway tech? What if there were some change in the way the two work which allowed gateways to be more preferable for building armies within your base/defensive position and then have warpgates be used for mostly offensive reinforcement/sneaky infiltration.
I wouldn't know how to deal or approach this, but I have one idea, which could have possibilites or variations. But what if they removed the warpgate upgrade and just made the Cyber Core as the requirement to morph the building, so no research would be required to warp in units. Instead of the warpgate research, they swap it out for improved chronoboost on Gateways. Which would allow you get get faster warp ins on the short distance, but nothing drastic, just intended to equalize the reinforce distance.
Or, what if they added a variable into the Warpgate cooldown. The further you warp a unit in from the Warpgate, the longer the cooldown.
Could this (or something like it) allow for more variability in protoss macro in the perspective of short v. long distance reinforcements?
Terrans can reactor swap to micro their macro, so would it be helpful or further protoss game mechanics to allow them the same thing.
Blizzard has said, officially, that they want warp gates to be required for all protoss players every game and they don't want people staying with regular gateways. That is their design vision. So that's what's stopping them from implementing it: they don't want to.
Well under what I suggested, warpgates would still be required. Its just their usage is more on-demand for when the protoss is doing the attacking. But yeah, can't really debate blizzard stubbornness.
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Every race has its own pros and cons so get used to it guys, or change race.Imo warp tech is very usefull, u can just warp 4-5 units in your base when terran drops and dont have to move your army from other side of the map.When attacking you can instantly reinforce your army if u have a pylon nearby, and you dont wait 20 sec or more for your army to corss the whole map.
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On September 16 2011 03:07 ihug wrote:
Every race has its own pros and cons so get used to it guys, or change race.Imo warp tech is very usefull, u can just warp 4-5 units in your base when terran drops and dont have to move your army from other side of the map.When attacking you can instantly reinforce your army if u have a pylon nearby, and you dont wait 20 sec or more for your army to corss the whole map.
your first point is a completely useless point. A Terran drop can wipe the floor with any 5 units that you instantly warp in from Warpgates since Terran units are significantly more efficient than Protoss Gateway units.
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I have an idea to change up the shield battery that would ensure it stayed defensive and open up PvP. Make the nexus somehow upgradeable to allow for it's energy to be converted into shields, therefore sacrificing chronoboost a little in order to survive an early push. It would prevent protoss from proxying a shield battery and also make PvP less volatile. Your welcome blizzard, I'll be expecting a cheque.
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true. The biggest defenders advantage is the distance between bases. Warp-in annihilates this. This is problematic in all PvX match-ups but especially PvP.
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What do you think of making the pylon have an upgrade that allows the warpgate mechanic to work instead of allowing any pylon do it. (this is only applicable to a single pylon such as an overlord and overseer
Say for example a 50 min 75 gas cost to upgrade and a 10-20 second upgrade time
That way a protoss cant spam proxies everywhere in a map without much of a punishment for doing so.
This makes for more strategic placing and choice on where to place proxies everywhere and encourage warp prism play
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On September 15 2011 19:48 zergrushkekeke wrote:
I don't think the warp mechanic broke protoss, the game is fine. Each races unique abilities and characteristics allow equally skilled players to be evenly matched.
Zerg have to expand early to keep their production (larva) up to scratch, giving up the ramp and spreading their early defenses over 2 bases. The larva mechanic didn't break zerg.
A better SC2 example is how terran can use pure mules for minerals and cut workers endgame, this doesn't break terran, it is compensated by all the other stuff going on with all 3 races.
If the protoss really was lacking a defenders advantage why aren't all PvX games won decisively by the opponent playing aggressively? I know you are saying that they even out the mechanic by weakening the units overall, but it is balanced out or we would see statistical evidence showing so.
And finally from a non protoss players point of view the main thing scaring me off over-aggressively engaging an economic protoss early is forcefields, which do work differently for an attacking or defending protoss.
The problem is not actually that the Protoss has a weak defender's advantage. It is that their attacks are too strong, which has forced blizzard to balance the game around their attack, rather than their defense. You don't see people crushing Toss with aggressive play because toss builds are currently designed to exclusively exploit offense, because a defensive game is inefficient. It's only balanced out because of the current meta--but it forces toss to only play one way.
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i thought about this alot before the fact of no defender advantage with warpgate
the fact that a warpgate can turn back into a regular gate gave me an idea
what if building units from a normal gateway took less time than warping in units
that way there is an inherit advantage when defending but if you wanna go attack just switch your gateways u can warp in units at a little bit of a cooldown penalty
i would also make the time it takes to switch back and forth from gateway to warp mode a little faster
well just a thought :D
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I agree with the OP completely.
I find I can't really take SC2 very seriously as an esport with such a (in my mind) glaring design flaw.
At least addressing it with something like an increase in warp-in time depending on the distance of the producing structure or even just moving WG to a higher tech tier while adding another defensive ability (like the Shield Battery) where WG currently is.
If Blizzard wants all players always using WG and never Gateways.. why is the option to revert to Gateway even there?
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On September 16 2011 03:46 Dan885 wrote:
i thought about this alot before the fact of no defender advantage with warpgate
the fact that a warpgate can turn back into a regular gate gave me an idea
what if building units from a normal gateway took less time than warping in units
that way there is an inherit advantage when defending but if you wanna go attack just switch your gateways u can warp in units at a little bit of a cooldown penalty
i would also make the time it takes to switch back and forth from gateway to warp mode a little faster
well just a thought :D
This idea has been entertained multiple times. The only issue is that macro-ing with Warp-Gate has been practiced for over a year now... it would be a brutal change for all Protoss players to adjust to. Imagine if now you had to detach the techlab from the Barracks to make a Marine, but then reattach it to make a Marauder.
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On September 16 2011 03:49 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 03:46 Dan885 wrote:
i thought about this alot before the fact of no defender advantage with warpgate
the fact that a warpgate can turn back into a regular gate gave me an idea
what if building units from a normal gateway took less time than warping in units
that way there is an inherit advantage when defending but if you wanna go attack just switch your gateways u can warp in units at a little bit of a cooldown penalty
i would also make the time it takes to switch back and forth from gateway to warp mode a little faster
well just a thought :D This idea has been entertained multiple times. The only issue is that macro-ing with Warp-Gate has been practiced for over a year now... it would be a brutal change for all Protoss players to adjust to. Imagine if now you had to detach the techlab from the Barracks to make a Marine, but then reattach it to make a Marauder.
i disagree since the macro mechanic is the same as a regular gateway a stargate or a robo just selecting the building and a unit if your referring to the micro of transforming it back and forth from a warpgate to a gateway. this isnt something that should be done multiple times in a short time frame. only if your like im going to attack and set my proxy pylon then simply click to make them warpgates. your analogy fails short because the reattaching and detaching would be for the purpose of choosing a different unit to build while with warpgates u can always build the same units its just whether you click s once and wait for it to come out of s and then click into a pylon toss players have always done the as well as the fact i proposed it being faster the transformation which is already fast and takes one button to do to reattach a lab you have to lift and land taking 3 times as many actions so yea i dont see how this would be a big deal for the players especially diamond and above to adapt and benefit
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On September 16 2011 03:03 getter1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 02:59 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 02:56 getter1 wrote:
just throwing this out there, because it may just be retarded in the end...
But what if there was added incentive to keep gateways as gateways? Why is it that warpgates are a must in all situations for gateway tech? What if there were some change in the way the two work which allowed gateways to be more preferable for building armies within your base/defensive position and then have warpgates be used for mostly offensive reinforcement/sneaky infiltration.
I wouldn't know how to deal or approach this, but I have one idea, which could have possibilites or variations. But what if they removed the warpgate upgrade and just made the Cyber Core as the requirement to morph the building, so no research would be required to warp in units. Instead of the warpgate research, they swap it out for improved chronoboost on Gateways. Which would allow you get get faster warp ins on the short distance, but nothing drastic, just intended to equalize the reinforce distance.
Or, what if they added a variable into the Warpgate cooldown. The further you warp a unit in from the Warpgate, the longer the cooldown.
Could this (or something like it) allow for more variability in protoss macro in the perspective of short v. long distance reinforcements?
Terrans can reactor swap to micro their macro, so would it be helpful or further protoss game mechanics to allow them the same thing.
Blizzard has said, officially, that they want warp gates to be required for all protoss players every game and they don't want people staying with regular gateways. That is their design vision. So that's what's stopping them from implementing it: they don't want to. Well under what I suggested, warpgates would still be required. Its just their usage is more on-demand for when the protoss is doing the attacking. But yeah, can't really debate blizzard stubbornness.
Yes, but maybe the existing issues can motivate them. Plus, that position conflicts with their overarching motto of strategic variety.
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On September 16 2011 06:21 Dan885 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 03:49 QTIP. wrote:On September 16 2011 03:46 Dan885 wrote:
i thought about this alot before the fact of no defender advantage with warpgate
the fact that a warpgate can turn back into a regular gate gave me an idea
what if building units from a normal gateway took less time than warping in units
that way there is an inherit advantage when defending but if you wanna go attack just switch your gateways u can warp in units at a little bit of a cooldown penalty
i would also make the time it takes to switch back and forth from gateway to warp mode a little faster
well just a thought :D This idea has been entertained multiple times. The only issue is that macro-ing with Warp-Gate has been practiced for over a year now... it would be a brutal change for all Protoss players to adjust to. Imagine if now you had to detach the techlab from the Barracks to make a Marine, but then reattach it to make a Marauder. i disagree since the macro mechanic is the same as a regular gateway a stargate or a robo just selecting the building and a unit if your referring to the micro of transforming it back and forth from a warpgate to a gateway. this isnt something that should be done multiple times in a short time frame. only if your like im going to attack and set my proxy pylon then simply click to make them warpgates. your analogy fails short because the reattaching and detaching would be for the purpose of choosing a different unit to build while with warpgates u can always build the same units its just whether you click s once and wait for it to come out of s and then click into a pylon toss players have always done the as well as the fact i proposed it being faster the transformation which is already fast and takes one button to do to reattach a lab you have to lift and land taking 3 times as many actions so yea i dont see how this would be a big deal for the players especially diamond and above to adapt and benefit
Man..... kinda hard to read your paragraph without lack of punctuation. But I do admit my analogy is not perfect, I was more hinting at the difficulty of making such a drastic adjustment at this time. Nearly every timing (Gateway morph time) / strategy would be thrown off by this change and this would amplified 100 times over at the GSL Level. Another thing to consider would be the Map size and calculating unit travel distances in deciding which Gateway configuration to use. It would be unfair to ask Protoss players to accept such a change to their core macro mechanic. There would be so many additional factors to consider, and Protoss would get raped while they try to figure this out. It would not be received well and it doesn't make sense for a year old game being played competitively for large sums of money.
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Good read, it makes sense that protoss have to make an entirely other building and use more minerals for defense. Its something I would like blizzard to overlook in the future or maybe in the expansion coming out next year.
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Here's an idea from reading the OP. I haven't read the whole thread though.
Why not give Gateways an ability similar to the Shield Battery. Something that casts about once a minute, about siege tank range and can restore full shields to a stalker. This ability is disabled when the Gateway is morphed to a Warpgate.
Protoss would then have options of mixing Gateways and Warpgates for defense. 3-WG 1-GW defense? 2-WG 2-GW? 3-GW Robo?
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On September 16 2011 10:34 Don.681 wrote:
Here's an idea from reading the OP. I haven't read the whole thread though.
Why not give Gateways an ability similar to the Shield Battery. Something that casts about once a minute, about siege tank range and can restore full shields to a stalker. This ability is disabled when the Gateway is morphed to a Warpgate.
Protoss would then have options of mixing Gateways and Warpgates for defense. 3-WG 1-GW defense? 2-WG 2-GW? 3-GW Robo?
That's actually quite interesting. Giving a Protoss the choice between being more offensive and being more defensive through the Gateway itself..
That's kind of a huge change. But.. two expansions left! Hope!
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Interesting way of thinking about the warpgate mechanic! While I mildly agree, I don't want to see a shield battery... I can't even remember which game it was with that hero dragoon (30+ kills)... maybe it was Bisu .. ?
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On September 16 2011 10:57 Temporarykid wrote:
Interesting way of thinking about the warpgate mechanic! While I mildly agree, I don't want to see a shield battery... I can't even remember which game it was with that hero dragoon (30+ kills)... maybe it was Bisu .. ?
Yeah because we definitely don't want to have even one epic game... Come on the shield battery is a no brainer addition to HotS. But with these patches, who knows what kind of brains Blizzard has 
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what i feel they could do is change the way warpgate works. maybe by distance from warp in point to the warpgate. if it's closer, warp gate cd faster and vice versa. we might see less 4gate micro pvp and p might stand more chance against the much feared 1/1/1
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EPT
