EPTThe Warp Mechanic and How It Broke Protoss - Page 42
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blowfish
Austria238 Posts
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deadmau
960 Posts
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Vega08
United States17 Posts
On January 06 2012 22:01 deadmau wrote: Hey vega, if you could point out the fallacy of the logic behind it, i'd like to hear it, because unless you don't understand it yea, it should sound like the OP did smoke something, but if you understand the logic which makes sense, as many have explained, I don't know why you're so upset. Use some intelligent thought to get your message across yea? Are you fucking dumb, anyone who agrees to this is fucking retarded as shit. Protoss gets no defense from a gateway because your units are stronger. What ever you smoked to rant on about this I want some, I'd love some "equal army" to come push me, that is my "fallacy of the logic". User was warned for this post | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
But in the case that somehow Protoss timings were to become too powerful, Blizzard would not hesitate for a second to nerf things and destroy the entire race, whereas they would think hard before buffing if we couldn't defend Terran all ins or something. This is a scary thought. It's always easier to acknowledge that something is OP (basically because all the community will whine about it), rather than something being UP (example: the Carrier, which should have had its ridiculous build time fixed since a long time ago) I would have liked warpgate to be perfectly balanced, but it's obviously very difficult to achieve, and it sometimes looks OP, and sometimes makes Protoss look incredibly easy to all in. Edit: I don't understand at all this Vega08 guy btw, among the few posts he has in his history, several are whine about P (his race apparently) being underpowered as shit, and there he comes calling "our" units stronger. Probably just some joke poster I'd guess. | ||
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MagmaRam
United States395 Posts
On January 06 2012 22:08 ZenithM wrote: Haha, we Protoss see warpgate, which renders our offensive and defensive armies equal in power, as our bane and the other two races as a huge advantage. But the fact is guys, Protoss pushes are holdable, and Protoss can still hold pushes from Terran or Zerg, so in the end it's somewhat fine. But in the case that somehow Protoss timings were to become too powerful, Blizzard would not hesitate for a second to nerf things and destroy the entire race, whereas they would think hard before buffing if we couldn't defend Terran all ins or something. This is a scary thought. It's always easier to acknowledge that something is OP (basically because all the community will whine about it), rather than something being UP (example: the Carrier, which should have had its ridiculous build time fixed since a long time ago) I would have liked warpgate to be perfectly balanced, but it's obviously very difficult to achieve, and it sometimes looks OP, and sometimes makes Protoss look incredibly easy to all in. Edit: I don't understand at all this Vega08 guy btw, among the few posts he has in his history, several are whine about P (his race apparently) being underpowered as shit, and there he comes calling "our" units stronger. Probably just some joke poster I'd guess. I think what Vega means by protoss units being stronger is that, piece for piece, a protoss army vs a terran or zerg army of equal numbers (not supply) and equal tech will be stronger in general. Of course, that ignores cost, supply, and build time. | ||
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HypernovA
Canada556 Posts
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
On January 06 2012 23:43 HypernovA wrote: How is warp in not good defensively? I have to wait 25 seconds for my marine to Pop out, Protoss has to wait 5 seconds. Give me a break, I'd take slightly weaker units for this insane build time. You don't really make them in 5 seconds because warpgates have cooldowns. The real bonus isn't the production time, but the fact you can warp units in wherever you have pylons. So you save yourself the time of having to walk your units over to the necessary place. | ||
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
On January 06 2012 23:43 HypernovA wrote: How is warp in not good defensively? I have to wait 25 seconds for my marine to Pop out, Protoss has to wait 5 seconds. Give me a break, I'd take slightly weaker units for this insane build time. It's not whether it's balanced around (and yes build times are worked around currently) it's the inherent design. If a T defends, he gains a reinforcement distance and defensive structures like bunkers (compared to when attacking). If a P defends, he gains no reinforcement distance (due to warp in) and arguably weaker defensive structures (due to them requiring a forge as opposed to rax/pool). In addition, to compensate for how P units have no reinforcement distance when attacking, they have to be weaker to balance that out, or P gateway timings would be too strong (currently it's somewhere in between - gateway units are somewhat weaker but low-tech timings are still stronger than Z/T equivalent mostly). That in turn has an effect again on P defending strength. The biggest example of this is PvP. There's pretty much no way to safely expand and still win because of reinforcement distance (always equal) and defender's advantage (practically non-existant). The way Blizzard handled this situation is the sentry, and especially when this topic was created the sentry was under a lot of scrutiny for being badly designed. | ||
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
The map becomes bigger (harder for early pushes). If small map just late expand. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Fan during beta: "Hey Blizzard, are you sure that mechanic X is gonna work out? Common sense says there will be fundamental problems with it." Blizzard: "We are the game developers, not you, so STFU because we know what you want better than you." A different fan today: "Hey Blizzard, mechanic X kinda doesn't work. If you think about it, common sense says there are fundamental problems with it." Blizzard: "FUUUUUU!!! I mean, we're working on the issue." Back in the beta, we wondered if warpgates, medivacs, colossi, clumping unit pathing and megaunits could ever be made to function in a serious RTS context. It's 2012 now and they still don't work. Eagerly awaiting Diablo 3 to finally see if Blizzard has no clue how to make games nowadays otherwise than spend enormous budgets. Not that I'm very bitter, but things that make me shun the game today are EXACTLY the same things that made me worry in alpha/beta periods. | ||
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Treble557
United States221 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:08 BluzMan wrote: StarCraft 2 history looks very fun if you try to remember the beta times. Like: Fan during beta: "Hey Blizzard, are you sure that mechanic X is gonna work out? Common sense says there will be fundamental problems with it." Blizzard: "We are the game developers, not you, so STFU because we know what you want better than you." A different fan today: "Hey Blizzard, mechanic X kinda doesn't work. If you think about it, common sense says there are fundamental problems with it." Blizzard: "FUUUUUU!!! I mean, we're working on the issue." Back in the beta, we wondered if warpgates, medivacs, colossi, clumping unit pathing and megaunits could ever be made to function in a serious RTS context. It's 2012 now and they still don't work. Eagerly awaiting Diablo 3 to finally see if Blizzard has no clue how to make games nowadays otherwise than spend enormous budgets. Not that I'm very bitter, but things that make me shun the game today are EXACTLY the same things that made me worry in alpha/beta periods. Both funny and true. :> | ||
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AvAri
Austria135 Posts
i think the history is more like beta fan: äh blizz this game is not broodwar WTF blizz: yeah intended its a game of its own in the starcraft universe if u like bw more play it fan now: OHMAGAWD its still not broodwar.... blizz: yeah exactly what makes u think warpgate does not work? a huge esports community and general huge success and nearly perfect balanced tournament winrates (after only A year of balancing) disagree i'm 10000% sure warpgate and the other things mentioned wont go away they may be changed a little but they are part of the game (the highly successful and balanced game nontheless) my argument is kinda old and lame but true this is not broodwar and blizz themself said that this is sc2 and if you dont like it play broodwar its still awesome arguments like "but broodwar was better" isnt an argument thats an opinion sc2 is awesome to play and to watch sure bw was/is too but blizz didnt want sc2 to be bw and it isn't and I think thats good Back in the beta, we wondered if warpgates, medivacs, colossi, clumping unit pathing and megaunits could ever be made to function in a serious RTS context can you explain how it's "not working" because i well i see it working pretty well sc2 is a game that stands on his own feet in the starcraft universe with huge professional success and is very good balanced (especially considering its age) | ||
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Leviance
Germany4079 Posts
On September 08 2011 18:59 susySquark wrote: [*]The lack of a defensive structure after gateway adds to this problem. It seems Toss is getting this in HotS with one of the new Nexus abilities. I'm not a fan of that though. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:08 BluzMan wrote: StarCraft 2 history looks very fun if you try to remember the beta times. Like: Fan during beta: "Hey Blizzard, are you sure that mechanic X is gonna work out? Common sense says there will be fundamental problems with it." Blizzard: "We are the game developers, not you, so STFU because we know what you want better than you." A different fan today: "Hey Blizzard, mechanic X kinda doesn't work. If you think about it, common sense says there are fundamental problems with it." Blizzard: "FUUUUUU!!! I mean, we're working on the issue." Back in the beta, we wondered if warpgates, medivacs, colossi, clumping unit pathing and megaunits could ever be made to function in a serious RTS context. It's 2012 now and they still don't work. Eagerly awaiting Diablo 3 to finally see if Blizzard has no clue how to make games nowadays otherwise than spend enormous budgets. Not that I'm very bitter, but things that make me shun the game today are EXACTLY the same things that made me worry in alpha/beta periods. But most of those things (especially medivacs) have worked themselves out, except for WG somewhat. I think Blizzard has a clue on how to make a game - considering SC2 dwarfed every other game competitively this year and will probably continue to do so. It's just like LoL where every player complained about the towers doing too much damage in beta, about click stuns being dumb, etc. and Riot not fixing it. So I don't know how you can even say that... | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:47 AvAri wrote: i think the history is more like beta fan: äh blizz this game is not broodwar WTF blizz: yeah intended its a game of its own in the starcraft universe if u like bw more play it fan now: OHMAGAWD its still not broodwar.... blizz: yeah exactly what makes u think warpgate does not work? a huge esports community and general huge success and nearly perfect balanced tournament winrates (after only A year of balancing) disagree i'm 10000% sure warpgate and the other things mentioned wont go away they may be changed a little but they are part of the game (the highly successful and balanced game nontheless) my argument is kinda old and lame but true this is not broodwar and blizz themself said that this is sc2 and if you dont like it play broodwar its still awesome arguments like "but broodwar was better" isnt an argument thats an opinion sc2 is awesome to play and to watch sure bw was/is too but blizz didnt want sc2 to be bw and it isn't and I think thats good can you explain how it's "not working" because i well i see it working pretty well sc2 is a game that stands on his own feet in the starcraft universe with huge professional success and is very good balanced (especially considering its age) When you think about it, the only thing that 'destroy' starcraft 2 is warpgate. It's very difficult to balance units when they can be instantly warp 10feet from the opponent's base, regardless of the map's size. The whole protoss race is balanced around it (colossus), which affects the other races as well. | ||
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Jurassic
Hungary79 Posts
On January 07 2012 00:47 AvAri wrote: i think the history is more like beta fan: äh blizz this game is not broodwar WTF blizz: yeah intended its a game of its own in the starcraft universe if u like bw more play it fan now: OHMAGAWD its still not broodwar.... blizz: yeah exactly what makes u think warpgate does not work? a huge esports community and general huge success and nearly perfect balanced tournament winrates (after only A year of balancing) disagree i'm 10000% sure warpgate and the other things mentioned wont go away they may be changed a little but they are part of the game (the highly successful and balanced game nontheless) my argument is kinda old and lame but true this is not broodwar and blizz themself said that this is sc2 and if you dont like it play broodwar its still awesome arguments like "but broodwar was better" isnt an argument thats an opinion sc2 is awesome to play and to watch sure bw was/is too but blizz didnt want sc2 to be bw and it isn't and I think thats good can you explain how it's "not working" because i well i see it working pretty well sc2 is a game that stands on his own feet in the starcraft universe with huge professional success and is very good balanced (especially considering its age) I agree that SC2 is a different game, and I hate when people asks for units from BW. For one, I think the warpgate mechanic is a very nice addition to the protoss race. But... If you watch BW, you realise that SC2 could be even better. In BW, battles last for minutes because you can hold ground (and units dont clump together resulting in a big battlefield), and most units have very good micro potential, and when used properly, they can change the game's outcome. SC2 lacks on this part. There is the marine vs baneling micro, and TvT where tanks spaced out well and marine drops are everywhere... but it's few and Protoss does not even have anything like that. It is not a coincidence that the best SC2 games resemble to the BW kind of games... That's why people compare SC2 to BW. We need some of the mechanics back, to make SC2 the best RTS ever made. (Also get rid of A-move units like the colossus. Even if it is working and balanced, e-sport is still about how exciting the game is for the crowd) | ||
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rightstuff
United States160 Posts
I feel like there ought to be a decision to make between gateway and warpgate production instead of the current, I must get this tech, mindset, but I do not understand the call to arms against warpgate mechanic based on these assumptions. Late game protoss armies might have to contain more than just 1-1.5 tier units to compete with other armies, but so what? Is the expectation that if blizzard removed warpgate tech that they would then buff gateway units to the point that you could use them un-upgraded in mid-late to late game army compositions without any kind of support? Or that stim and concussive shells wouldn't be strong enough to pressure an early expand because of gateway unit buffs? Protoss certainly have early game options with econ openings. FFE is standard on a lot of maps against zerg. 3 gate expand, 1 gate expand, etc. If you get hit with a stim timing or roach bust because you didn't build units it isn't any different than a fast expanding zerg losing to a 4gate timing or a zerg taking a third losing to a 6gate push. You may not gain a special defender advantage with warpgates that you don't enjoy on offense in the early game, but nobody has proven that you lose the advantage specifically because of warpgate tech either. In addition to this, you still have a special defenders advantage with robo and stargate tech. Their rally points are still short, and that tech is something you'd need to invest in to stop timing pushes anyway. The sentry is still in the game to delay pushes or cut down the efficiency of opposing armies on your doorstep. The warpgate mechanic makes attacking far away third or fourth bases harder to kill with small, noncommittal groups of units giving protoss an advantage on defense of outlying expansions from things like drops as the game rolls on. | ||
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blowfish
Austria238 Posts
On January 06 2012 23:28 MagmaRam wrote: I think what Vega means by protoss units being stronger is that, piece for piece, a protoss army vs a terran or zerg army of equal numbers (not supply) and equal tech will be stronger in general. Of course, that ignores cost, supply, and build time. If you do not consider supply, costs and buildtime and you go pure numbers against pure numbers you can say Protoss is much stronger because one marine dies to one colossi. | ||
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Tehweenus
United States27 Posts
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blowfish
Austria238 Posts
On January 07 2012 01:55 Tehweenus wrote: Think the original post was close to right. Warp is a small part of why Protoss defense is weak, but if you look at how every unit is balanced, it's all the sentry. But if you remove the sentry without adjusting protoss it is unwinnable against early pushes - on the other hand if you buff T1 units warpgatre gets too strong for Protoss timing pushes. I really would not want to be in charge of balancing this game, especially when HotS will change so many factors so that Blizzard has to revise the balance with the new units added. | ||
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