On November 27 2011 10:43 Hier wrote: Even a townie can seem scummy at times. Instead of admitting that some of my points are worth considering, while insisting on retaining you town alignment, you simply call them terrible without any explanation.
On November 27 2011 10:34 Palmar wrote: Again, what I say has nothing to do with the people I talk about and their alignment.
So you say, mafia can surely mention other mafia brethren in their discussion. It alleviates suspicion, even if slightly.
On November 27 2011 10:34 Palmar wrote: Nothing I say can make anyone else scum, it's their own words you have to look for.
No, of course not. But the player that screams his/her intentional misinterpretation of other players' posts the loudest has a great advantage. That's how the game is played, and you and WBG are playing it correctly, because it seems the people are already starting to rally against me. It seems to be working. Good job.
You're ignoring the possibility of people voting for me because they think I make sense, and me being mad at you for using bad logic.
Your point about my campaign resting on me being good previously in mafia is okay. Until you know my alignment, you cannot deduce anything about me based on how other people respond to me. If people allowed those kind of reads, then mafia would just buddy up with town all the time to get them hanged. It's stupid.
If someone votes me with sketchy reasoning, you should go for HIM, not me.
If you're not scum, you have two options. Believe me now when I say you're using incorrect methods to scumhunt, and they will not work. Or you can make a fool of yourself this game, and then learn.
Irrelevant of my alignment, your methods suck at the moment. Try a new approach.
You are right, people may be voting for you because you make sense, not because of you campaign, or lack of. However, a player of any alignment can "make sense", it simply depends on what you are making that sense. Early game, especially of this magnitude is about appealing to the mass of people, the majority of which are town aligned. Late game, though I have not seen it yet, I think will be very different.
It is interesting how my original post was merely an expression of opinion, not a scumhunt, I thought it would go largely ignored. But it would appear that the mafia have taken note of my post, to my dismay. WBG ignored my question, but tell me, am I dangerous to you, mafia?
You are also ultimately right about varying methods to playing the game. In the early stages key words, such as 'hypocrite', and intentionally diverging the attention of people off of main points of the discussion, where such a discussion can be detrimental to the mafia, are all excellent tools. As I already said, I will attempt to use them.
This is the order of players I want for the scummy/lurker DT/vig list. Note that the first player is a scummy active and every other player will be a lurker. In other words, all the even numbers are lurkers and the odd ones are scummy active players.
Okay. I am omitting YM from this list because I assume Palmar will lynch him. By the time I finish typing this there will most likely be less than 2 hours left in the day. All names will link to the filters for tl;dr and convenience.
I am also omitting prplhz because when I went back and read his filter I realized that many of the things he was saying were true. His campaign was really bad but other than that he's been calling things out with good logic. His attack on vaderseven, for example, was very town-like to me. I am removing Erandorr for similar reasons; his attack on decon made him look more town-like to me.
Players I'd like dead by day 3; AKA, who should be part of my plan
I'll start with the lurkers, those players who have done next to nothing. These players, I anticipate, will make good lurker-bane shots by n2.
This is relatively self-explanatory. This guy has done nothing. Nothing at all. His vote reason for sandro is terrible, and he has contributed nothing. Lurker banes need to shoot people, this one would make a good shot.
I'm actually unsure whether a lurker bane can shoot this guy or not, since he almost has a full page of posts, but he has done nothing as well. Over half his posts are completely irrelevant to the game. He mentions things like the current BW game, makes excuses for his inactivity, and comments repeatedly about the length of day 1.
You lurker banes know better than I do how you function, but he's a good shot too. Also BLinD-RawR is rather scummy because he seemed very enthusiastic about starting this game and now has literally done nothing.
One of the biggest problems I've had in a couple of my last games is figuring out who mafia were but not being able to convince people to listen to me. Hopefully if I'm mayor people will be more willing to listen.
As town, I usually get killed off night 1 or 2. It would be nice to have the protection to keep me alive a bit longer.
As scum I try to stay out of the spotlight. I would never run for mayor as that would put too much scrutiny on me. Other players can attest to this.
Note how bad his campaign actually is. There is so little effort here that one would wonder how someone who does this could actually win.
Clearly, decon's intention was never to win the election, nor help town in attaining a good mayor. He's just seeding chaos and distracting the thread with an unnecessary campaign.
Now, the most interesting thing that decon has done is this:
On November 25 2011 06:40 deconduo wrote: I'm replacing Meapak in MMX so I'm going to focus on that for the last day. As such I'm withdrawing from my run for mayor. Didn't really have much support anyway.
Palmar or Sandro will probably be my choice.
On November 26 2011 02:28 deconduo wrote: Pretty sure WBG, Palmar and Sandroba are mafia, but thats just off gut reads. BC's plan is dumb, dunno why he's still defending it. It won't work. LAL is dumb, don't do it. Mafia are going to take out the veterans early, need medic protection for:
Annnul can you run for mayor pls, you're better than all the other candidates.
He votes annul based on annul being better than everyone else, despite annul having done absolutely nothing this game to prove that he is town.
In fact, annul is far more likely to be scum than town right now.
Last thing of note about decon is this:
On November 26 2011 23:55 deconduo wrote: Annul, kita, syllo, Jackal are all town. Kurumi and Kenpachi are probably town.
WBG and Sandro are scum bussing each other. BC and Palmar probably scum too. Looks like we're gonna have 2 scum in office.
This is a truly moronic and unbased assumption. I really have no nicer way of putting that.
I am apparently scum bussing sandro. No reason why. Just a statement of fact. No analysis. Just a statement.
Decon has not given reasons for ANY of his reads all game; this was one of his last posts. Not his town reads, not his scum reads. How is this beneficial to townies?
I will conclude about decon with a reiteration of his own quote:
On November 25 2011 00:01 deconduo wrote: I will lynch a veteran player who is trying to look like they are contributing without really saying anything. I've found that this is generally one of the better scumtells that even good players fall victim to. Also players who were active in the pre-game and have disappeared somewhat. Kitaman is guilty of this right now, though it still is early in the day.
By his own standards, since decon is posting one liners that accuse people of being scum or assert that people are town without reasoning, he is making posts that look like he's contributing but in reality he isn't contributing anything at all.
On November 27 2011 09:23 wherebugsgo wrote: also you are a hypocrite, and have contradicted yourself, since you incorrectly say that I call sandro scum only because he called for the lynch of sinani (this is not true) but you call BC scum for this reason:
On November 27 2011 08:20 Hier wrote: BC -The original creator of the DT plan. It is likely WBG modified it, as opposed to advising BC behind the curtains to fix it, because they wanted to create an extra face to compete in the elections, diluting the suspicions. .
Entirely because he created the DT plan and you think it's bad.
So, you accuse me of being scum because I apparently only had one reason for attacking sandro, but then you attack BC for only one reason.
Nice logical contradiction.
Do you actually know the meaning of the word "hypocrite"? My main point... the one that's several lines long, had to do with your campaign. After that I accused your reason (only reason) for calling Sandro scum of being shallow.
I am not the first person to call BC's DT plan prone to manipulation b the mafia. Specifically BC's, not yours.
yes, I do, that's why I'm calling you one.
You list me as mafia and use my attack on sandro for him wanting to lynch sinani as suspicious, yet you do the exact same thing by attacking BC solely for not liking his plan. That's hypocritical! Not being the first to call BC's plan bad does not change anything about whether or not you did something logically contradictory. No one cares if you were the first nor last to call BC's plan bad, you're a hypocrite because you said I'm scummy because my suspicion of sandro (apparently) rests entirely on him wanting to kill sinani. Your suspicion of BC rests entirely on his plan, which, by your logic, makes YOU scummy.
In fact, even your attack on me is pretty much that you don't like the plan. Only your suspicion of Palmar is supported by multiple points (which, by the way, are not very well reasoned)
Anyway, I'm writing up a bigger post right now so I'm probably not going to reply to you for a bit.
On November 27 2011 08:20 Hier wrote: Here are some of my thoughts so far.
Mafia Palmar -Way too many people announcing their vote for him, with the official vote tag and everything. Claiming they love his plan, even though there REALLY wasn't any plan Palmar offered to begin with. Typical propaganda by the mafia. -Most of his campaign relies on him proclaiming he is good as town, and bad as mafia. -Already started working on his "people with ability to veto" list to veto people ending up on the suspect list. That includes himself. lol wut? Note that he wants 3 veto votes to prevent a person to be on the suspect list for DTs. That means there are at least 3 mafia members on that list Palmar proposed. -Slightly suspicious about his adamant urge to kill YM. YM merely
WBG -I'm not a fan of his DT plan. Unless prevented by an ability, mafia will get a kill every night. Meanwhile, the town's lynches are semi-blind and can be manipulated by the mafia. We are meant to follow a list, which itself can be manipulated through propaganda, waste our player resources (forced kills), and waste our vigilante shots all to slightly help out our detective(s) to figure out their sanity, the attempts of which can be all for naught by GF, Millers, and framers. If mafia gets a slightly favorable population ratio within the first few days, the game is over. No thanks. I'd rather have our DTs work independently, even if it is a gamble on them being competent. -His claim that sandroba is mafia hangs entirely on his first lynch target, sinani206. Though I admit questionable, he puts way too much weight on that point alone.
BC -The original creator of the DT plan. It is likely WBG modified it, as opposed to advising BC behind the curtains to fix it, because they wanted to create an extra face to compete in the elections, diluting the suspicions.
Town sandroba -Is against WBG's plan, with which I agree with; it is far too prone to manipulation and errors by DTs.
Can't Quite Tell syllogism
GreYMisT
prplhz
I think this guy is a good bet to be scum.
Look at how detailed his cases are on the players he thinks are scum, and then look at his case for sandro being town.
There's a huge sense of disconnect here between the amount of effort he put in to calling myself, Palmar, and BC scum and the amount of effort he put into calling sandro town.
He also lists 3 null reads at the end for no particular reason. Why those 3, in particular?
prpl I thought was scum, syllo I think is also likely to be scum. GreYMisT could be anything at this point. It's perhaps not so strange he picked syllo, since he focused on syllo+sandro and me+Palmar+BC, but it is indeed strange he chose to comment on GreYMisT and prpl.
On November 27 2011 08:20 Hier wrote: Here are some of my thoughts so far.
Mafia Palmar -Way too many people announcing their vote for him, with the official vote tag and everything. Claiming they love his plan, even though there REALLY wasn't any plan Palmar offered to begin with. Typical propaganda by the mafia. -Most of his campaign relies on him proclaiming he is good as town, and bad as mafia. -Already started working on his "people with ability to veto" list to veto people ending up on the suspect list. That includes himself. lol wut? Note that he wants 3 veto votes to prevent a person to be on the suspect list for DTs. That means there are at least 3 mafia members on that list Palmar proposed. -Slightly suspicious about his adamant urge to kill YM. YM merely
WBG -I'm not a fan of his DT plan. Unless prevented by an ability, mafia will get a kill every night. Meanwhile, the town's lynches are semi-blind and can be manipulated by the mafia. We are meant to follow a list, which itself can be manipulated through propaganda, waste our player resources (forced kills), and waste our vigilante shots all to slightly help out our detective(s) to figure out their sanity, the attempts of which can be all for naught by GF, Millers, and framers. If mafia gets a slightly favorable population ratio within the first few days, the game is over. No thanks. I'd rather have our DTs work independently, even if it is a gamble on them being competent. -His claim that sandroba is mafia hangs entirely on his first lynch target, sinani206. Though I admit questionable, he puts way too much weight on that point alone.
BC -The original creator of the DT plan. It is likely WBG modified it, as opposed to advising BC behind the curtains to fix it, because they wanted to create an extra face to compete in the elections, diluting the suspicions.
Town sandroba -Is against WBG's plan, with which I agree with; it is far too prone to manipulation and errors by DTs.
Can't Quite Tell syllogism
GreYMisT
prplhz
I think this guy is a good bet to be scum.
Look at how detailed his cases are on the players he thinks are scum, and then look at his case for sandro being town.
There's a huge sense of disconnect here between the amount of effort he put in to calling myself, Palmar, and BC scum and the amount of effort he put into calling sandro town.
He also lists 3 null reads at the end for no particular reason. Why those 3, in particular?
prpl I thought was scum, syllo I think is also likely to be scum. GreYMisT could be anything at this point. It's perhaps not so strange he picked syllo, since he focused on syllo+sandro and me+Palmar+BC, but it is indeed strange he chose to comment on GreYMisT and prpl.
Well GreYMisT and prplz are/were in the election campaign. Duh...... Syllo I found often to be there with Sandro, but did not quite have enough to say at the time. I was busy in the last 24 hours; just finished reading like 35 pages, I'll dump more posts as time moves.
Sandro: I happened to agree with his criticisms of your strategy. Not much to say.
Would you call me scum right off the bat if I did the opposite; if I had one liners about you and Palmar and an essay about Sandro? This is a legitimate question, answer it.
Yes, actually.
I generally am critical of players who make contradictions in their play. If a player is hypocritical or makes logical contradictions, then I generally hone in on them and tunnel and pressure them repeatedly.
If someone says things that show discrepancies or inordinate bias toward one side of an issue they are not involved in, then I also am suspicious, because I then wonder if they have a non-town agenda.
If a player is not directly involved in an issue (such as this DT palmar/BC/me and syllo/sandro business) then I expect the amount of effort put into analyzing both sides to be roughly equal. If it isn't, then there is likely to be something hidden going on.
It is advantageous for town to identify mafia as soon as possible and to provide large amounts of argument to accuse a player of being scum.
It is advantageous for mafia to falsely accuse a townie of being mafia and to provide large amounts of argument for it to alleviate suspicion off of actual mafia members and to waste lynches.
Sandro isn't being lynched after breakfast; I'm not in a particular rush to convince everyone he isn't scum. However, I do not believe he is mafia based on his argument against your DT policy. So it actually turns out that the paragraph under your name has relation to Sandro's case.
So you just admitted that what you posted about scum could be taken from both alignment perspectives.
Thank you, you pretty much just proved my point for me.
What? You agreed that what I said could be interpreted as mafia or town equally. Then you said that just proved I'm scum. Excellent logic. You are rather desperate to have me out of the picture, are you not? Am I a threat to your scum campaign?
Let me clarify.
My logic has to do with how scum operate. They want to be unreadable.
So, the entire focus of your post was on your scumreads, with literally no effort put in to convincing anyone that sandro is town. You also strangely included three other players, two of which you say are included because they are mayoral candidates.
Yet, you don't talk about other mayoral candidates, such as sinani, annul, Erandorr, or kitaman. You could've easily said you were null on all of these (each with a campaign about as strong as GreYMisT's or prpl's) and I probably would believe you that you were mentioning those players based on their campaigns. But, you didn't.
Now, if you look at only your scumreads, and omit the rest of your post, we see that your post can be made from either alignment. That's point number 1.
If you instead eliminate only the first half, and include the town/null, you again can probably make that post from either alignment, but it's more likely to be a scum-aligned post because of the total lack of effort. This is point #2.
Put them together, and the disconnect makes sense far more from a scum perspective than a town one. Scum are completely fine with destroying the credibility of town players. Early in the game, when there are so many of them, they are also fine in supporting certain players who are furthering their agenda; either townies they think will help them achieve their wincon, or their scumbuddies.
Main points here are that Hier (lol) has contradicted himself in trying to call BC scummy. He calls me scummy for apparently inappropriately using sandro's push of sinani. He accuses me of putting too much weight on this single thing. Then, he accuses BC of being scum almost entirely on not liking BC's plan.
This is a big behavioral contradiction and should not be let go.
On November 26 2011 02:33 Palmar wrote: Due to unforeseen circumstances, I will be unavailable for the remainder of the day.
i like how this comes right after i call attention to his omgus
not saying anything, but im just saying
He entered the thread by calling out Palmar for "blowing up the thread" but then repeatedly posts absolutely worthless one-liners like these.
The following post is the entirety of his mayoral campaign.
On November 26 2011 03:51 annul wrote: alright. fuck it. its bedtime for me soon, so i may as well do this now:
hello motherfuckers. i am annul. i want* to be your mayor. what is my platform, you ask? it is very simple. i'm a bad motherfucker. i have, in my possession, right here and now, a wallet, that does, in fact, say bad motherfucker on it.
and what are bad motherfuckers good at doing? well, for clarification purposes, i suggest we watch this video together:
as you can see, these punk mafias came in and tried to fuck over the bad mother fucker's team. but a bad mother fucker steps in and swiftly dispatches that fool. THEN, the other mafia guy tries to kill him BUT LO AND BEHOLD the bad mother fucker is a mayor here too and so the bullets all miss and he doesnt die. this is true bad mother fucker training right here. and i have that training. i offer this skill set to us all.
so like what i do is i go into their house and shit and i pick out the out of place looking guy (obviously the team leader) and i use my verbal kung fu trolling on his ass for a bit knowing ill just pop caps in his ass anyway. pro mayor skills right here.
so yes vote for me.
(my massive head pops up and cracks a massive grin as "i am amerrrrricaaaaaaa, one voice united we staaaaand" plays in the background) i am annul and i approve this message
On November 26 2011 19:17 wherebugsgo wrote: If YM has a history of being useless as town, if people very easily agree to lynching YM (and have done so in the past) with very minimal reasoning, and if YM becomes completely inactive with no clear behavioral indications of either alignment, then yeah, he probably is an easy lynch too.
holy fuck dude, what a massive mafia tell
grats on #1 target for me. in my sights now.
And gets absolutely wrecked by layabout in the next few posts. I didn't even have to step in and defend myself, since annul's logic was so terrible, he was caught by at least 2 or 3 other players. (I was asleep, for the record, or I would've done it myself)
On November 27 2011 02:24 minus_human wrote: annul, would you be willing to run? It's a little unlikely that many people will change their votes, but if the day's extended (seeing as many people did not vote yet) maybe we could draw some additional votes.
i have a platform out but primarily because i didnt like the slate of other choices
if someone new comes along with a good platform i will step aside for them. but if this doesnt happen then yeah, rather me than the current list
For the record, it's currently 1 hour to the end of day 1 and annul actually still hasn't said why he ran for mayor, other than thinking he himself is better than all of us (although his posts have proven that he is probably worse than about 90% of us)
even his response to prpl's question about mayoral platforms is dumb:
who knows? better than what we have out there now, i know that i also do not like the current frontrunners either.
so if its up between them or me, im going to try to make it me.
but come up with something good and i will gladly step down and tell my supporters (all 4? of them? heh) to go to you
He doesn't even know what a good platform is, but he thinks his own platform is better than the others...simply because he is on it?
Wtf?
Annul is just one massive distraction from beginning to end. He needs to die, he's an incredible distraction to town agenda and he cannot apply logic at all.
The biggest tell about syllogism is his assertion that anyone who thinks he is town should vote sandro.
I used this instance of bad logic in a very similar situation that involved both sandro and syllo in a very recent game which also had mayoral elections.
Essentially, three players, all known to be very good as town, were running for mayor. Sandro and syllo were two of them, and the third was Mig.
At the time, I caught sandro on a slip he made that made him look very scummy. He basically said, "syllogism thinks Mig is town. I think syllogism is town, and therefore I trust him, so I am voting Mig for mayor." Syllogism WAS right that Mig was town, but sandro was actually scum. I knew that a town sandro would not make such a bad logical call, and I correctly pegged him as scum on day 1.
An almost eerily similar thing has happened this game. Case in point, this quote:
On November 27 2011 07:36 syllogism wrote: wbg, it's not bad logic. Mafia is a game where quite often players have to decide who to trust when they don't personally have a clue. It is obviously better to be able to convince them based on the perceived strength of your argument, but quite often players do resort to just trusting someone who they strongly believe is town. As they should, because as long as they trust someone who tends to be correct, doing so benefits town more than acting based on your own, weaker case.
It isn't an explicit assertion, but essentially the way syllo is posting is hinting that if you think syllo is town, you should vote sandro because syllo's judgment as a townie can be trusted.
That's a really bad reason to vote for someone.
I don't have much else to say about syllo. I find him more likely to be scum than sandro at this point because of the way syllogism has been talking.
His reasoning has been terrible.
This, for example:
On November 25 2011 21:45 syllogism wrote: Unless you can confirm your sanity, it doesn't help and you are wasting checks to potentially be able to deduce your sanity slightly earlier and also making DTs breadcrumb checks on the same small pool of players, which makes the breadcrumbs quite easy to find, especially with there being a lot of players in the game who barely post
is poorly reasoned.
Syllogism asserts a dichotomy between confirming a DT's alignment and the plan's usefulness. Essentially he's saying that either the plan is helpful if it can ensure confirmation of sanity, or it's useless if it can't.
I point out how, even if the plan cannot ensure confirmation of sanity, it is still effective if it narrows down the possibilities for the detectives. He throws this idea out on other grounds later, probably because he knows I have a good point about the plan not needing to be perfect in order to be helpful.
In addition, he keeps asserting that breadcrumbs will be easy to find.
Note that I never once suggested anyone should ever be breadcrumbing anything. In fact, I strongly advised against breadcrumbing, because in my opinion in a game of this size, it is one of the dumbest things a detective can do.
On November 27 2011 11:01 vaderseven wrote: Uh in what way is this kind of role fishing not a scummy thing to do especially day 1.
Assume for a second he has any of the roles and realize you have 0 ways to know which they are. There is several roles that he might have that are downright awful to claim on day motherfucking 1.
Don't role fish day 1 please unless you can convince me that years of mafia playing logic that I have gained is all completely wrong on the fact that role fishing like that is just plain pro scum anti town.
I'm not role-fishing, I'm straight up asking for his role, because I'm considering killing him.
You know, when the alternative is death, telling someone your role isn't a bad choice, no matter what role you have. Yes, you're wrong, because you're applying a general rule to a specific situation. I would never ask someone to roleclaim unless there is a chance of him dying.
Then I evaluate if I believe him or not. YM claimed vanilla town, I don't believe it, I think he's scum, but that other guy's last post was so bad that it should technically be an auto lynch, I'm just giving him a slight benefit of the doubt because he's clearly new.
On November 27 2011 10:57 Benjef wrote: Haha Kurumi you made me laugh :D. Its his first game on TL at least cut him slack. But to be fair his posts are rather bad especially the one where he tried to scum hunt Palmer ><, because well none of it makes sense =/.
We are cutting him slack.
If that was a veteran I'd have instantly lynched him for terrible logic, but I'm giving this guy the chance to clean up his act.
Although, he did just earn himself a spot on the DT list thing.
In the last hour of the day, all I want to hear people discuss is whether or not they like the youngminii lynch.
I'd prefer a prplhz lynch.
On November 27 2011 11:01 vaderseven wrote: Uh in what way is this kind of role fishing not a scummy thing to do especially day 1.
Assume for a second he has any of the roles and realize you have 0 ways to know which they are. There is several roles that he might have that are downright awful to claim on day motherfucking 1.
Don't role fish day 1 please unless you can convince me that years of mafia playing logic that I have gained is all completely wrong on the fact that role fishing like that is just plain pro scum anti town.
It's a Palmar power trip move. You learn to ignore him. He does it as town or as scum.
On November 27 2011 11:00 Palmar wrote: Although, he did just earn himself a spot on the DT list thing.
Don't do that, that would be a terrible waste of a DT's ability... wait, do they even have those in the mafia? As per your request earlier, I am a Townie.
Just re read through all of Youngminii's posts again, I would be fine with him being the first to lynch. I can't see anyone else that would really be lynch worthy to be honest except for Sinani206. But Youngminii has been horribly anti you (Palmer) since the start for some reason =/. Can't help but feel this is from past games or something lol, don't waste a lynch of just revenge .
But yeh as i said before, there isn't really anyone else lynch worthy yet.
On November 27 2011 10:43 Hier wrote: Even a townie can seem scummy at times. Instead of admitting that some of my points are worth considering, while insisting on retaining you town alignment, you simply call them terrible without any explanation.
On November 27 2011 10:34 Palmar wrote: Again, what I say has nothing to do with the people I talk about and their alignment.
So you say, mafia can surely mention other mafia brethren in their discussion. It alleviates suspicion, even if slightly.
On November 27 2011 10:34 Palmar wrote: Nothing I say can make anyone else scum, it's their own words you have to look for.
No, of course not. But the player that screams his/her intentional misinterpretation of other players' posts the loudest has a great advantage. That's how the game is played, and you and WBG are playing it correctly, because it seems the people are already starting to rally against me. It seems to be working. Good job.
You're ignoring the possibility of people voting for me because they think I make sense, and me being mad at you for using bad logic.
Your point about my campaign resting on me being good previously in mafia is okay. Until you know my alignment, you cannot deduce anything about me based on how other people respond to me. If people allowed those kind of reads, then mafia would just buddy up with town all the time to get them hanged. It's stupid.
If someone votes me with sketchy reasoning, you should go for HIM, not me.
If you're not scum, you have two options. Believe me now when I say you're using incorrect methods to scumhunt, and they will not work. Or you can make a fool of yourself this game, and then learn.
Irrelevant of my alignment, your methods suck at the moment. Try a new approach.
You are right, people may be voting for you because you make sense, not because of you campaign, or lack of. However, a player of any alignment can "make sense", it simply depends on what you are making that sense. Early game, especially of this magnitude is about appealing to the mass of people, the majority of which are town aligned. Late game, though I have not seen it yet, I think will be very different.
It is interesting how my original post was merely an expression of opinion, not a scumhunt, I thought it would go largely ignored. But it would appear that the mafia have taken note of my post, to my dismay. WBG ignored my question, but tell me, am I dangerous to you, mafia?
You are also ultimately right about varying methods to playing the game. In the early stages key words, such as 'hypocrite', and intentionally diverging the attention of people off of main points of the discussion, where such a discussion can be detrimental to the mafia, are all excellent tools. As I already said, I will attempt to use them.
you would not be dangerous to me if I were mafia because you are not making any sense.
Any good scum player will agree that only townies who make sense are a threat to them. As scum, I'm not threatened by people who use bad logic.
On November 27 2011 11:03 vaderseven wrote: Ill quote myself on Youngminii
"He is either bad town or is a semi new scum and Palmer is on his scum team and this is the most epic fail of a bus I have ever seen. I don't have a formed opinion on this guy yet but he is now *'ed in my notes because I need to pay attention to his play to see wtf is going on."
I still feel that way about him.
I don't see him as the best lynch choice but he is FAR from the worst. I would be fine with it overall.
Bad logic btw, I already called you out on it.
You assume that if YM flips scum, I am scum. And if he flips town I'm gonna be under suspicion anyway.
Oh I am not saying that X = Y here. I am saying that it would provide a piece of info that could suggest that. Those are my two lead thoughts... notice the words, "I don't have a formed opinion on this guy yet."
It is fairly bad to do what I term chain lynches (if X flips Y then lynch Z). It is never solid enough proof of anything.
My gut read his posts and I was like wtf is this guy awful town or scum and I thought about how a bad town or scum would get to a point where he posted like Youngminii did and I came up with that is very possible that there is some busing action going on.
Like I said, he isn't the best lynch because I feel like there is some people doing some legit scummy things (hidden info slips of tone especially) but he is FAR from a bad lynch because his flip would at least allow me to put some more notes in on other people.
On November 27 2011 10:43 Hier wrote: Even a townie can seem scummy at times. Instead of admitting that some of my points are worth considering, while insisting on retaining you town alignment, you simply call them terrible without any explanation.
On November 27 2011 10:34 Palmar wrote: Again, what I say has nothing to do with the people I talk about and their alignment.
So you say, mafia can surely mention other mafia brethren in their discussion. It alleviates suspicion, even if slightly.
On November 27 2011 10:34 Palmar wrote: Nothing I say can make anyone else scum, it's their own words you have to look for.
No, of course not. But the player that screams his/her intentional misinterpretation of other players' posts the loudest has a great advantage. That's how the game is played, and you and WBG are playing it correctly, because it seems the people are already starting to rally against me. It seems to be working. Good job.
You're ignoring the possibility of people voting for me because they think I make sense, and me being mad at you for using bad logic.
Your point about my campaign resting on me being good previously in mafia is okay. Until you know my alignment, you cannot deduce anything about me based on how other people respond to me. If people allowed those kind of reads, then mafia would just buddy up with town all the time to get them hanged. It's stupid.
If someone votes me with sketchy reasoning, you should go for HIM, not me.
If you're not scum, you have two options. Believe me now when I say you're using incorrect methods to scumhunt, and they will not work. Or you can make a fool of yourself this game, and then learn.
Irrelevant of my alignment, your methods suck at the moment. Try a new approach.
You are right, people may be voting for you because you make sense, not because of you campaign, or lack of. However, a player of any alignment can "make sense", it simply depends on what you are making that sense. Early game, especially of this magnitude is about appealing to the mass of people, the majority of which are town aligned. Late game, though I have not seen it yet, I think will be very different.
It is interesting how my original post was merely an expression of opinion, not a scumhunt, I thought it would go largely ignored. But it would appear that the mafia have taken note of my post, to my dismay. WBG ignored my question, but tell me, am I dangerous to you, mafia?
You are also ultimately right about varying methods to playing the game. In the early stages key words, such as 'hypocrite', and intentionally diverging the attention of people off of main points of the discussion, where such a discussion can be detrimental to the mafia, are all excellent tools. As I already said, I will attempt to use them.
If you insist that what you wrote earlier was well thought out, and reasonable, you are dangerous to town, no matter your alignment.
Even if you decide to stick to your guns now, come back after the game is done, and read this part again. It'll help you improve.
@Palmar: As stated before I am fine with a YM lynch, but I would also like you to consider my points about Serejai. I think both are adequate lynch targets day 1
OH good fucking point palmer you winning the vote does mean your choice of lynch is basically like someone being about to die. Youngminii SHOULD roleclaim. You are actually 100% correct I feel silly.
On November 27 2011 08:20 Hier wrote: Here are some of my thoughts so far.
Mafia Palmar -Way too many people announcing their vote for him, with the official vote tag and everything. Claiming they love his plan, even though there REALLY wasn't any plan Palmar offered to begin with. Typical propaganda by the mafia. -Most of his campaign relies on him proclaiming he is good as town, and bad as mafia. -Already started working on his "people with ability to veto" list to veto people ending up on the suspect list. That includes himself. lol wut? Note that he wants 3 veto votes to prevent a person to be on the suspect list for DTs. That means there are at least 3 mafia members on that list Palmar proposed. -Slightly suspicious about his adamant urge to kill YM. YM merely
WBG -I'm not a fan of his DT plan. Unless prevented by an ability, mafia will get a kill every night. Meanwhile, the town's lynches are semi-blind and can be manipulated by the mafia. We are meant to follow a list, which itself can be manipulated through propaganda, waste our player resources (forced kills), and waste our vigilante shots all to slightly help out our detective(s) to figure out their sanity, the attempts of which can be all for naught by GF, Millers, and framers. If mafia gets a slightly favorable population ratio within the first few days, the game is over. No thanks. I'd rather have our DTs work independently, even if it is a gamble on them being competent. -His claim that sandroba is mafia hangs entirely on his first lynch target, sinani206. Though I admit questionable, he puts way too much weight on that point alone.
BC -The original creator of the DT plan. It is likely WBG modified it, as opposed to advising BC behind the curtains to fix it, because they wanted to create an extra face to compete in the elections, diluting the suspicions.
Town sandroba -Is against WBG's plan, with which I agree with; it is far too prone to manipulation and errors by DTs.
Can't Quite Tell syllogism
GreYMisT
prplhz
I think this guy is a good bet to be scum.
Look at how detailed his cases are on the players he thinks are scum, and then look at his case for sandro being town.
There's a huge sense of disconnect here between the amount of effort he put in to calling myself, Palmar, and BC scum and the amount of effort he put into calling sandro town.
He also lists 3 null reads at the end for no particular reason. Why those 3, in particular?
prpl I thought was scum, syllo I think is also likely to be scum. GreYMisT could be anything at this point. It's perhaps not so strange he picked syllo, since he focused on syllo+sandro and me+Palmar+BC, but it is indeed strange he chose to comment on GreYMisT and prpl.
On November 27 2011 11:08 Benjef wrote: Just re read through all of Youngminii's posts again, I would be fine with him being the first to lynch. I can't see anyone else that would really be lynch worthy to be honest except for Sinani206. But Youngminii has been horribly anti you (Palmer) since the start for some reason =/. Can't help but feel this is from past games or something lol, don't waste a lynch of just revenge .
But yeh as i said before, there isn't really anyone else lynch worthy yet.
It is from past games. He knows, as you guys all probably understand now, that I can be very charming and lead towns when I want to. I have gotten him lynched as scum through the sheer presence I have in some games. I literally forced someone to make an analysis on YM, and then got him lynched.
However, what I don't understand is why he doesn't recognize how powerful such an entity is on the town side. Looking from the outside, I think the logical way for him to play is to try to support me in every way possible, but only if he has a reason to believe I'm town. And I have posted a fuckton, mostly to give people reads on me.
He had no reason to believe I'm scum at the time, he just straight up attacked me. That's not a townie point of view. Obviously you guys can't understand that because I'm not confirmed town to anyone but myself, but from my vantage point, he immediately attacked someone who was threatening to be a powerful townie in the mayor position, which is extremely scummy.
On November 27 2011 11:11 vaderseven wrote: OH good fucking point palmer you winning the vote does mean your choice of lynch is basically like someone being about to die. Youngminii SHOULD roleclaim. You are actually 100% correct I feel silly.
On November 27 2011 10:43 Hier wrote: Even a townie can seem scummy at times. Instead of admitting that some of my points are worth considering, while insisting on retaining you town alignment, you simply call them terrible without any explanation.
On November 27 2011 10:34 Palmar wrote: Again, what I say has nothing to do with the people I talk about and their alignment.
So you say, mafia can surely mention other mafia brethren in their discussion. It alleviates suspicion, even if slightly.
On November 27 2011 10:34 Palmar wrote: Nothing I say can make anyone else scum, it's their own words you have to look for.
No, of course not. But the player that screams his/her intentional misinterpretation of other players' posts the loudest has a great advantage. That's how the game is played, and you and WBG are playing it correctly, because it seems the people are already starting to rally against me. It seems to be working. Good job.
You're ignoring the possibility of people voting for me because they think I make sense, and me being mad at you for using bad logic.
Your point about my campaign resting on me being good previously in mafia is okay. Until you know my alignment, you cannot deduce anything about me based on how other people respond to me. If people allowed those kind of reads, then mafia would just buddy up with town all the time to get them hanged. It's stupid.
If someone votes me with sketchy reasoning, you should go for HIM, not me.
If you're not scum, you have two options. Believe me now when I say you're using incorrect methods to scumhunt, and they will not work. Or you can make a fool of yourself this game, and then learn.
Irrelevant of my alignment, your methods suck at the moment. Try a new approach.
You are right, people may be voting for you because you make sense, not because of you campaign, or lack of. However, a player of any alignment can "make sense", it simply depends on what you are making that sense. Early game, especially of this magnitude is about appealing to the mass of people, the majority of which are town aligned. Late game, though I have not seen it yet, I think will be very different.
It is interesting how my original post was merely an expression of opinion, not a scumhunt, I thought it would go largely ignored. But it would appear that the mafia have taken note of my post, to my dismay. WBG ignored my question, but tell me, am I dangerous to you, mafia?
You are also ultimately right about varying methods to playing the game. In the early stages key words, such as 'hypocrite', and intentionally diverging the attention of people off of main points of the discussion, where such a discussion can be detrimental to the mafia, are all excellent tools. As I already said, I will attempt to use them.
you would not be dangerous to me if I were mafia because you are not making any sense.
Any good scum player will agree that only townies who make sense are a threat to them. As scum, I'm not threatened by people who use bad logic.
Hmm... you keep ignoring the fact that the basis of me thinking you are scum is not the ordeal with sinani. This is becoming rather stale, for an attempt at getting the town to lynch me. It may eventually work, because people search for keywords, not reading the entire posts. But... such poor moves are so tasteless and boring. No style at all.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BRuIC.jpg)
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