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Here we go again. This weekend is about good games and good fun. Don't rain on that parade. Play nice guys. Here's the very standard and friendly:
- NO Balance Whine.
- NO Player Bashing.
- NO Caster Bashing.
- NO BM whatsoever.
Breaking these rules (from pg 166 forward) will be met with severe punishment. |
On November 21 2011 12:47 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:43 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:38 Jiddra wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:28 Casablancas wrote:On November 21 2011 12:25 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:17 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:14 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:11 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:08 jyLee wrote:
[quote]
Maybe you didnt catch Naniwa's interview where he basically called Nestea a trash player. He goes out of his way to trash Nestea which is hilarious because the dude has won 2 gsl championships. Its also funny that a code A player calls out a two time GSL champ. Well at least Naniwa got his poor mans Code S spot. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287295Maybe you didn't catch the bit where he apologised and said that it was never his intention to insult Nestea. See I actually check I know what I'm talking about before I, you know, talk about it. So now that he apologised its all good, lol. He's bm and hes proven it multiple times at this mlg. Maybe you didnt catch him trashing MLG during a game either. Dude has zero class and nobody can blame fans for booing him. Apologised for the miscommunication. Because that's what it was; he didn't apologise for calling Professor Tea an idiot, he apologised for appearing to when he really didn't mean to. I saw him calling MLG a joke tournament. As I pointed out, Idra has done the same and worse and he still gets some of the loudest support. So now your just crying about why Naniwa has no friends when Idra has so many. I just cannot fathom why anyone would be angry at the fans for booing an unlikable person. Real mature. Immature for saying people shouldnt boo at a player who just accomplished maybe the best result a foreigner have ever done? No immature for being mad at fans for booing. Fans can boo whoever the hell they please and who can blame them for booing Naniwa after his actions. Also maybe you should check your facts before claiming Naniwa had the best result a foreigner had. Pretty sure Huk WINNING mlg would be a better pick lol. And we can boo whatever crowd we want for booing. Silly how this arguemnt can go round and round... No you have no reason to be upset. Why are you so mad that people dont like Naniwa. Last time I checked he hasnt proven himself with a GSL championship or MLG championship and bms worse than Idra. When was the last time he bmed? He called MLG a joke tournament out of frustration, nothing that hasn't happened before, and his temper is one of his flaws. He claims he never meant to disrespect Nestea, and as far as I can see he didn't. So when has he bmed since the days of old Naniwa who'd cheese every game, which was ages ago? As for proving himself...god damn man are you just biased against the guy? Over the last 3 days he beat MVP, Nestea, Nestea again, Huk, and DRG. Yeah he has no resul-OH WAIT he just took 2nd in the most stacked MLG ever. It was only about an hour ago, maybe you can recall it. And he has won an MLG.
Stop feeding the Troll (jyLee)
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On November 21 2011 12:36 jj33 wrote:Also, the top korean players like flash etc aren't the top because they just play alot, they are talented.
Playing alot is a GIVEN. What separates a good pro from the cream of the crop like bisu/flash/Jaedong is their talent.
So no it's not just training. If it's just mass training, why don't you go and do it? Since you hate koreans why don't you go beat them?
It's near proven that experts are trained and not born.
Amount of training is only a factor, more important is quality of training. Koreans aren't genetically better, and it's odd that you'd claim that absolutely without evidence.
Case in point; a married couple of scientists raised their 3 daughters to play chess to try and prove that men weren't automatically better at the game; I believe all 3 girls were grandmasters at a young age.
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On November 21 2011 12:50 fatworthlessvirgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:47 Morphling_ wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jj33 wrote:Also, the top korean players like flash etc aren't the top because they just play alot, they are talented.
Playing alot is a GIVEN. What separates a good pro from the cream of the crop like bisu/flash/Jaedong is their talent.
So no it's not just training. If it's just mass training, why don't you go and do it? Since you hate koreans why don't you go beat them? So, what... you think there's a starcraft gene? High IQ, good decision making, quick reflexes, etc. All of these things affect your play greatly. Players like Flash, Bisu, Jaedong just have better traits that help them in SC2 than others.
So why do only Koreans happen to have these traits?
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On November 21 2011 12:54 Casablancas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:47 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:43 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:38 Jiddra wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:28 Casablancas wrote:On November 21 2011 12:25 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:17 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:14 jyLee wrote:So now that he apologised its all good, lol. He's bm and hes proven it multiple times at this mlg. Maybe you didnt catch him trashing MLG during a game either. Dude has zero class and nobody can blame fans for booing him. Apologised for the miscommunication. Because that's what it was; he didn't apologise for calling Professor Tea an idiot, he apologised for appearing to when he really didn't mean to. I saw him calling MLG a joke tournament. As I pointed out, Idra has done the same and worse and he still gets some of the loudest support. So now your just crying about why Naniwa has no friends when Idra has so many. I just cannot fathom why anyone would be angry at the fans for booing an unlikable person. Real mature. Immature for saying people shouldnt boo at a player who just accomplished maybe the best result a foreigner have ever done? No immature for being mad at fans for booing. Fans can boo whoever the hell they please and who can blame them for booing Naniwa after his actions. Also maybe you should check your facts before claiming Naniwa had the best result a foreigner had. Pretty sure Huk WINNING mlg would be a better pick lol. And we can boo whatever crowd we want for booing. Silly how this arguemnt can go round and round... No you have no reason to be upset. Why are you so mad that people dont like Naniwa. Last time I checked he hasnt proven himself with a GSL championship or MLG championship and bms worse than Idra. When was the last time he bmed? He called MLG a joke tournament out of frustration, nothing that hasn't happened before, and his temper is one of his flaws. He claims he never meant to disrespect Nestea, and as far as I can see he didn't. So when has he bmed since the days of old Naniwa who'd cheese every game, which was ages ago? As for proving himself...god damn man are you just biased against the guy? Over the last 3 days he beat MVP, Nestea, Nestea again, Huk, and DRG. Yeah he has no resul-OH WAIT he just took 2nd in the most stacked MLG ever. It was only about an hour ago, maybe you can recall it. And he has won an MLG. Stop feeding the Troll (jyLee)
You are, of course, correct. I apologise.
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On November 21 2011 12:35 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:30 furymonkey wrote:On November 21 2011 12:02 Grend wrote:On November 21 2011 11:51 Femari wrote:On November 21 2011 11:45 Grend wrote:On November 21 2011 11:44 Femari wrote:On November 21 2011 11:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:On November 21 2011 11:41 Femari wrote:On November 21 2011 11:39 HowardRoark wrote:On November 21 2011 11:34 Femari wrote:
[quote]
you see people sneaking peeks at replays to figure out what build the opponent is using?
since when? This is really an hot potato if what StarStruck posted is true. This sneakypeaky at high level WoL, is it actually something common? Seems like some huge news. Are you a whistle blower, or maybe you were referring to something else? Multiple people confirmed that Naniwa pulled up the replay of a game that was restarted (g3 v Nestea on Shak) due to it starting when on a commercial break. The replay that showed him what? The post-game screen shows build-orders anyway. Yeah so? The point is that he was the cause of restarting the game and that people calling Leenock punishing Naniwa's greed "dishonourable" is ridiculous considering what Naniwa did to Nestea. What did he do? Please elaborate on your accusations. During the break between game 2 and 3 of the series between Nestea and Naniwa, Naniwa chose Shak and set up the game himself. Something happened (miscommunication most likely) and they went to a commercial break. Naniwa had started the game though and they both played around 1:37 of game time so they had to stop it cause it wasn't being casted. After that they went to the restroom during the break and Naniwa got back first and started watching the replay. An official apparently tried to stop him but it was too late and he saw Nestea's main and the build. Then they started the new game and since Nestea was cross spawn in the replay Naniwa assumed it was cross only. He got upset. Started typing on screen which MLG could do nothing about. They then let the coach in apparently to relay messages from the admin (idk why) and then the game started again. Basically he did nothing against the rules, but he sure as hell did nothing honorable. But this was in the thread yesterday. Multiple people who were there have been saying this. About watching the replay thing: As MLG has stated time and time again it is actually not breaking any rules. In addition he could gain mostly any information he needed from watching the end game score screen. MLG also concluded that him watching the replay did not affect the result and even did a press statement about it. From MLG: "After extensive investigation, review of the video files and 2011 Pro Circuit rules, we have determined that the replay had no impact on the tournament flow or the match results. Build orders are displayed at the end of a match on the stats screen. So the replay that was viewed would have revealed nothing the match stats page would not have revealed otherwise.
Additionally, to clarify, the Complexity manager was allowed in the booth, accompanied by MLG staff, after the match had started in order to keep the game in motion after a discrepancy with his player that would have impacted the continuation of the game. Moving forward, we will look at rules outlawing any replay views on a tournament PC" Just because you could see the build order doesn't meant players should, and just because you can see it, doesn't meant you should go even further by checking replay. The match shouldn't even restarted in the first place, that means players wouldn't able to access these info under normal circumstance. This is essentially cheating meta game wise. Yes he didn't broke any rules, but since MLG is planning to fix it, it means it's bad enough that they going to stop it. Just because the current rules didn't cover it, doesn't meant his action is justified, he is just isn't held accountable. That is why many people spoke out. However this thing is already settled, and MLG learnt heaps from this. LOL!!!!! So beacuse he could see what the buildorder would say anyways during the rehost, a rehost forced by MLG mixup with casters starting the game before Nestea or the admins was ready, Naniwa did something wrong. You take the price. Keep up with the meta drama before posting.
Yes MLG might have created the caused, that is also why he isn't held accountable (read my post).
That is why MLG is going to make it clear to the players that this shouldn't be allowed.
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On November 21 2011 12:52 Defacer wrote:
I just wanted to add that I thought it was a great finals, that you can only appreciate in the context of the whole tournament.
Naniwa looked like he had Zerg solved, but thankfully Leenock solved Naniwa. They both had brilliant runs and deserve a lot of credit.
Did it look to anyone else like Leenock was not fully confident in his zvp? He's good, don't get me wrong, but his builds seemed designed to net him early advantages riskily. Did anyone think that maybe he was worried about an even macro game? Not to take anything away from him. It obviously worked. But I would only question whether he's capable of adapting against other tosses.
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On November 21 2011 12:49 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:44 DamageControL wrote:On November 21 2011 12:27 Qaatar wrote:On November 21 2011 12:24 Wallstreet11 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:05 jj33 wrote:On November 21 2011 11:57 Wallstreet11 wrote:
Naniwa for pres!
Him and Huk shows that koreans are not special and that foreigners with the same training partners/schedules can beat any of the top koreans. Then we have the master mind Stephano who is just a natural born killer.
All this flak for not kissing everyones ass is so sad. Naniwa is just speaking his mind. I bet all the koreans there gave Leenock tips of how to beat Naniwas usual build cause all koreans think so highly of themselves(DRG wasn´t even rooting for his teammate)...
I recall Idra saying that the koreans were hypocrites(spelling) and that they were at least as BM as himself except for when the public were watching... This makes it even more disgusting when people are booing Naniwa for not even being that BM. you just hate koreans that's all. Actually, the top players aren't even playing sc2 in korea. Huk and Nani has had some success sure, but they are only a few people that can compete with Koreans atm. And korea is one country, god forbid they lose. why are you only bringing up Koreans, when in the crowd I saw a bunch of non Koreans booing Naniwa? No I just like underdogs(foreigners) winning. I also hate the high and mighty mentality of the koreans. All the time you hear that Koreans are so special etc and they have a gift(which I also believe they think themselves) when it comes to gaming. It´s pretty apperent that they only want koreans to win every competition regardless of the team because they have so huge E-sport egos.I´m just happy that people maybe are starting to understand that Koreans doesn´t have(if any) genetic advantage over foreigners when it comes to be good at E-sport... cliffs: I think koreans have huge egos when it comes to E-sport and looks down on the rest of the world cause they think they are "special". I however love when the very very few professional foreign players beats them. Considering how few they are it is worth mentioning that the ones who live in Korea also kicks ass. Huk, SaSe and Naniwa have all showed how little time they need with the same training conditions as so many koreans have to be able to beat the top koreans. FLAK ON What the fuck. Where the hell are you getting this? From the TL forums? Because I'm pretty sure, that's totally the FOREIGN FANS THEMSELVES who are perpetuating that kind of bullshit. Fuck, go read some interviews with Koreans, and stop conflating what Korean fanboys themselves say, and what the actual Koreans think. I agree. also , the person you quoted is really contradictory. Let's say Koreans have no natural advantages and just work harder (obviously the case). Isn't in natural for them to want their hard-working countrymen to prevail over people who practice less hard? I agree. It still makes me enjoy beating them as they and everyone else sees them as SC2´s promised country, thats all. And to the poster above who is gonna get a heart attack any minute now: DRG himself said he really wanted a top 2 korean and he was said if that didn´t happen EVEN THOUGH Naniwa is his teammate and practice partner... ergo...?
Or maybe because naniwa doesn't play all races?
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On November 21 2011 12:51 Casablancas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:43 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:38 Jiddra wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:28 Casablancas wrote:On November 21 2011 12:25 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:17 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:14 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:11 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:08 jyLee wrote:
[quote]
Maybe you didnt catch Naniwa's interview where he basically called Nestea a trash player. He goes out of his way to trash Nestea which is hilarious because the dude has won 2 gsl championships. Its also funny that a code A player calls out a two time GSL champ. Well at least Naniwa got his poor mans Code S spot. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287295Maybe you didn't catch the bit where he apologised and said that it was never his intention to insult Nestea. See I actually check I know what I'm talking about before I, you know, talk about it. So now that he apologised its all good, lol. He's bm and hes proven it multiple times at this mlg. Maybe you didnt catch him trashing MLG during a game either. Dude has zero class and nobody can blame fans for booing him. Apologised for the miscommunication. Because that's what it was; he didn't apologise for calling Professor Tea an idiot, he apologised for appearing to when he really didn't mean to. I saw him calling MLG a joke tournament. As I pointed out, Idra has done the same and worse and he still gets some of the loudest support. So now your just crying about why Naniwa has no friends when Idra has so many. I just cannot fathom why anyone would be angry at the fans for booing an unlikable person. Real mature. Immature for saying people shouldnt boo at a player who just accomplished maybe the best result a foreigner have ever done? No immature for being mad at fans for booing. Fans can boo whoever the hell they please and who can blame them for booing Naniwa after his actions. Also maybe you should check your facts before claiming Naniwa had the best result a foreigner had. Pretty sure Huk WINNING mlg would be a better pick lol. And we can boo whatever crowd we want for booing. Silly how this arguemnt can go round and round... No you have no reason to be upset. Why are you so mad that people dont like Naniwa. Last time I checked he hasnt proven himself with a GSL championship or MLG championship and bms worse than Idra. Ok, im gonna stop arguing with you after this post. You obviously dont follow the scene. Naniwa won MLG Dallas and the Global invitational at MLG and got to the final today. In a weekend where he beat Nestea twice in bo3's. A Zerg who has been way more accomplished than Idra in GSL. Speaking of GSL, Idra did ro8 as best result, after how long in Korea? Lets see if not Naniwa can keep his momentum up and do something similar. And go google Idra BM and find out that youre wrong again, flipping of is worse then thumbs down, right?
LOL feel free to google MLG Dallas and then maybe you will have enough esport education to actually prove me wrong. Naniwa is a good player that hasnt won anything meaningful. Do you give credit to Nestea for making it to GSL finals but losing to MVP? Its kinda pathetic how the Naniwa fanboys are trying to validate his prowess with examples of games he's taken off top notch players when you really should be arguing about what championships he's won. As of now Naniwa isnt even close to being the best foreigner, that title belongs to Huk until further notice.
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On November 21 2011 12:32 Grend wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:23 Qaatar wrote:On November 21 2011 12:12 Grend wrote:On November 21 2011 12:07 jj33 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:05 quancer wrote:On November 21 2011 11:57 Wallstreet11 wrote:
Naniwa for pres!
Him and Huk shows that koreans are not special and that foreigners with the same training partners/schedules can beat any of the top koreans. Then we have the master mind Stephano who is just a natural born killer.
All this flak for not kissing everyones ass is so sad. Naniwa is just speaking his mind. I bet all the koreans there gave Leenock tips of how to beat Naniwas usual build cause all koreans think so highly of themselves(DRG wasn´t even rooting for his teammate)...
I recall Idra saying that the koreans were hypocrites(spelling) and that they were at least as BM as himself except for when the public were watching... This makes it even more disgusting when people are booing Naniwa for not even being that BM. Get this nationalistic, borderline racist, shit out of here. People like you make the world suck. He's definitely racist. where does he even get that part where "koreans think so highly of themselves?" I know exactly where, racists like him when the target people he does not like win, he has to find ways to antagonize them. this kid is pathetic Koreans don't have problems with foreigners doing well. In BW this did not use to be the case as far as I can remember. Good example was when Idra beat Tossgirl in the WCG. There are racist people in every culture, and Korea definitely has its share of racists (Rekrul's posts will tell you as much). However, Koreans generally have no issue with foreigners doing well - why do you think Hexatron/Estro existed in the first place? Tossgirl crying has nothing to do with racism - just unable to reconcile the fact that she just got beat by a foreigner, because it became such a rare event for foreigners to win after 2004'ish. Good points, was interested in getting some feedback on this. My impression from BW was that it was rather rough going there as a foreigner when it came to culture so I was interested in getting some differing views on it :-) Edit: Hmm. But what you said about Tossgirl got me thinking. Isn't that an example of Korean BW elitism? "It`s shameful to lose to a foreigner since we are so much better than them"? Interested to hear some more thoughts on this.
There's a fine line between nationalism and racism. The match was in an international event, and here's what Tossgirl said afterwards in an interview:
Any moment in your progaming career that you enjoyed and that you regretted or wanna take back?
- I enjoyed beating male progamers at prelims. ^^ A regretful moment was when I lost to non-Korean players at ESWC. I felt good after beating Chinese players, but after losing to IdrA, I cried a lot (though I don't usually cry; maybe the national pride got me.). It felt horrible.
I don't think that there was any BW elitism going on - just the fact that she lost as a Korean. Keep in mind that Idra wasn't any good at the time (nor did he ever get any good in BW), so while Tossgirl sucked as well, she probably honestly believed that she was a better player than Idra, BW elitism or not, and that probably contributed to the crying more than anything. Hell, I don't think much psychoanalysis is needed here, or we might as well as focus on the "beating male progamers" part as well - is Tossgirl sexist? lol.
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On November 21 2011 12:54 Casablancas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:47 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:43 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:38 Jiddra wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:28 Casablancas wrote:On November 21 2011 12:25 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:17 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:14 jyLee wrote:So now that he apologised its all good, lol. He's bm and hes proven it multiple times at this mlg. Maybe you didnt catch him trashing MLG during a game either. Dude has zero class and nobody can blame fans for booing him. Apologised for the miscommunication. Because that's what it was; he didn't apologise for calling Professor Tea an idiot, he apologised for appearing to when he really didn't mean to. I saw him calling MLG a joke tournament. As I pointed out, Idra has done the same and worse and he still gets some of the loudest support. So now your just crying about why Naniwa has no friends when Idra has so many. I just cannot fathom why anyone would be angry at the fans for booing an unlikable person. Real mature. Immature for saying people shouldnt boo at a player who just accomplished maybe the best result a foreigner have ever done? No immature for being mad at fans for booing. Fans can boo whoever the hell they please and who can blame them for booing Naniwa after his actions. Also maybe you should check your facts before claiming Naniwa had the best result a foreigner had. Pretty sure Huk WINNING mlg would be a better pick lol. And we can boo whatever crowd we want for booing. Silly how this arguemnt can go round and round... No you have no reason to be upset. Why are you so mad that people dont like Naniwa. Last time I checked he hasnt proven himself with a GSL championship or MLG championship and bms worse than Idra. When was the last time he bmed? He called MLG a joke tournament out of frustration, nothing that hasn't happened before, and his temper is one of his flaws. He claims he never meant to disrespect Nestea, and as far as I can see he didn't. So when has he bmed since the days of old Naniwa who'd cheese every game, which was ages ago? As for proving himself...god damn man are you just biased against the guy? Over the last 3 days he beat MVP, Nestea, Nestea again, Huk, and DRG. Yeah he has no resul-OH WAIT he just took 2nd in the most stacked MLG ever. It was only about an hour ago, maybe you can recall it. And he has won an MLG. Stop feeding the Troll (jyLee)
What a joke, the amount of crying in this thread is amazing.
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On November 21 2011 12:45 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:34 sunman1g wrote:On November 21 2011 12:24 Wallstreet11 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:05 jj33 wrote:On November 21 2011 11:57 Wallstreet11 wrote:
Naniwa for pres!
Him and Huk shows that koreans are not special and that foreigners with the same training partners/schedules can beat any of the top koreans. Then we have the master mind Stephano who is just a natural born killer.
All this flak for not kissing everyones ass is so sad. Naniwa is just speaking his mind. I bet all the koreans there gave Leenock tips of how to beat Naniwas usual build cause all koreans think so highly of themselves(DRG wasn´t even rooting for his teammate)...
I recall Idra saying that the koreans were hypocrites(spelling) and that they were at least as BM as himself except for when the public were watching... This makes it even more disgusting when people are booing Naniwa for not even being that BM. you just hate koreans that's all. Actually, the top players aren't even playing sc2 in korea. Huk and Nani has had some success sure, but they are only a few people that can compete with Koreans atm. And korea is one country, god forbid they lose. why are you only bringing up Koreans, when in the crowd I saw a bunch of non Koreans booing Naniwa? I´m just happy that people maybe are starting to understand that Koreans doesn´t have(if any) genetic advantage over foreigners when it comes to be good at E-sport... Else they would have kicked the world´s asses in WoW and CS as well. this gotta be the dumbest post i've read in a while NO ONE thinks koreans have a "genetic advantage", only someone living under a rock and with no education whatsoever could think such a thing. the reason why koreans are better and more dominant overall has to do with their infrastructure. they have a whole world built around esports THUS more players, more people trying to be progamers, they have coaches, team-houses, better training methods developed over the years, etc. the infrastructure generates good and better players, that's it. no one thinks that koreans are genetically superior. also, your post has a lot of underlying racism against them.. I hope you are right and I fully agree what you say about their infrastructure BUT those fundamental things doesn´t change anything in my opinion. It is all about perception. I think they see themselves superior when it comes to SC for different reasons. You can´t argue with results either. All this makes them in my opinion the top dogs and that´s why I think it is fun when they are beaten(which probably comes from my cultural mentality, namely Jantelagen). ... Another example of the way I see SC2 comes in Hockey(bare with me)... The only team I always enjoy losing is Canada. Why?... Because they see themselves as the mother nation of Hockey and that it is "their" sport. As one canadian said in an interview after the olympic gold; "I would trade all other gold medals during this competition in a heart beat for a gold medal in hocket".... IE they think so highly of themselves regarding hockey and that they are gods gift to the sport that I take enormous plessure out of seeing them loose(sorry canadians).
Haha, actually I found this discussion to be funny. We are talking SC2 tournament... the korean players you see is thriving really and not supported by kespa and hence no major corporation. That's why blizzard needs to sponsor money for GSL, and why koreans is joining foreign team. So from my perception its a thriving scene, not really one you can say they claim as "their sport" as its still in it's infantile stage. Now if you mean BW, then maybe you got a point, those guys dominated for 10 years and still going who can blame them. :p
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I'm Swedish, if a Swede has a chance at winning a tournament, I'm going to root for that guy.
A North American player has a chance to win a tournament on his own continent. Who does the majority of the crowd root for?
If a couple of Koreans stand a chance to win a tournament and you're Korean, who do you root for? All this feels like a self-explanatory thing to me.
With that said, Leenock played brilliantly. Fantastic games against some of the best players in the world. Naniwa also played very well throughout the entire tournament, but lost in the end since Leenock predicted his plans and builds.
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On November 21 2011 12:47 Morphling_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:36 jj33 wrote:Also, the top korean players like flash etc aren't the top because they just play alot, they are talented.
Playing alot is a GIVEN. What separates a good pro from the cream of the crop like bisu/flash/Jaedong is their talent.
So no it's not just training. If it's just mass training, why don't you go and do it? Since you hate koreans why don't you go beat them? So, what... you think there's a starcraft gene?
Bad reading comprehension.
Talent isn't exclusive to some sc gene.
talent is relevant to anything competitive.
People think alot of progamers are only good because they are good mechanically for example.
wrong. being good mechanically is a given at the top. guys like flash are just extremely talented. just like I don't know bobby fisher was extremely talented at chess.
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On November 21 2011 12:51 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:47 diophan wrote:On November 21 2011 12:45 Wallstreet11 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:34 sunman1g wrote:On November 21 2011 12:24 Wallstreet11 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:05 jj33 wrote:On November 21 2011 11:57 Wallstreet11 wrote:
Naniwa for pres!
Him and Huk shows that koreans are not special and that foreigners with the same training partners/schedules can beat any of the top koreans. Then we have the master mind Stephano who is just a natural born killer.
All this flak for not kissing everyones ass is so sad. Naniwa is just speaking his mind. I bet all the koreans there gave Leenock tips of how to beat Naniwas usual build cause all koreans think so highly of themselves(DRG wasn´t even rooting for his teammate)...
I recall Idra saying that the koreans were hypocrites(spelling) and that they were at least as BM as himself except for when the public were watching... This makes it even more disgusting when people are booing Naniwa for not even being that BM. you just hate koreans that's all. Actually, the top players aren't even playing sc2 in korea. Huk and Nani has had some success sure, but they are only a few people that can compete with Koreans atm. And korea is one country, god forbid they lose. why are you only bringing up Koreans, when in the crowd I saw a bunch of non Koreans booing Naniwa? I´m just happy that people maybe are starting to understand that Koreans doesn´t have(if any) genetic advantage over foreigners when it comes to be good at E-sport... Else they would have kicked the world´s asses in WoW and CS as well. this gotta be the dumbest post i've read in a while NO ONE thinks koreans have a "genetic advantage", only someone living under a rock and with no education whatsoever could think such a thing. the reason why koreans are better and more dominant overall has to do with their infrastructure. they have a whole world built around esports THUS more players, more people trying to be progamers, they have coaches, team-houses, better training methods developed over the years, etc. the infrastructure generates good and better players, that's it. no one thinks that koreans are genetically superior. also, your post has a lot of underlying racism against them.. As one canadian said in an interview after the olympic gold; "I would trade all other gold medals during this competition in a heart beat for a gold medal in hocket".... IE they think so highly of themselves regarding hockey and that they are gods gift to the sport that I take enormous plessure out of seeing them loose(sorry canadians). That just makes it sound like they just really want to win at hockey... not that they're god's gift. BELIEVE me they think it´s their sport. I have met many a canadians while out drinking and it´s always the same elitist bul.lshit... Hence making me enjoy seeing them lose even more when it comes to _hockey_!
That's called pride. It's because most of them invest more into the sport than many others when it's out of "the spotlight". This is true for American Football and Basketball (aka the Dream Teams), this is true for Football/Soccer in UK, Spain, Italy, Brazil, Argentina, etc. This is true for Table Tennis and Badminton in China.
Really, that's passion, not cockiness or "elitism".
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On November 21 2011 12:56 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:52 Defacer wrote:
I just wanted to add that I thought it was a great finals, that you can only appreciate in the context of the whole tournament.
Naniwa looked like he had Zerg solved, but thankfully Leenock solved Naniwa. They both had brilliant runs and deserve a lot of credit. Did it look to anyone else like Leenock was not fully confident in his zvp? He's good, don't get me wrong, but his builds seemed designed to net him early advantages riskily. Did anyone think that maybe he was worried about an even macro game? Not to take anything away from him. It obviously worked. But I would only question whether he's capable of adapting against other tosses.
Probably he is, his builds were pretty obviously reactive to the fact that nani had been FFEing against every zerg every single time and didn't seem like he was doing anything else any time soon. Leenock historically hasn't had very good ZvP but it has been improving a lot as of late. I think he just metagamed Nani terribly ad punished him for being so inflexible.
If you look closely, most of the games Leenock wasn't blindly going for the Roach/ling pressure, he was going for a standard speedling expand, but when he saw the FFE he just went for the pressure, since it's much better against FFE than speedling expand.
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On November 21 2011 12:50 jyLee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:47 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:43 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:38 Jiddra wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:28 Casablancas wrote:On November 21 2011 12:25 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:17 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:14 jyLee wrote:So now that he apologised its all good, lol. He's bm and hes proven it multiple times at this mlg. Maybe you didnt catch him trashing MLG during a game either. Dude has zero class and nobody can blame fans for booing him. Apologised for the miscommunication. Because that's what it was; he didn't apologise for calling Professor Tea an idiot, he apologised for appearing to when he really didn't mean to. I saw him calling MLG a joke tournament. As I pointed out, Idra has done the same and worse and he still gets some of the loudest support. So now your just crying about why Naniwa has no friends when Idra has so many. I just cannot fathom why anyone would be angry at the fans for booing an unlikable person. Real mature. Immature for saying people shouldnt boo at a player who just accomplished maybe the best result a foreigner have ever done? No immature for being mad at fans for booing. Fans can boo whoever the hell they please and who can blame them for booing Naniwa after his actions. Also maybe you should check your facts before claiming Naniwa had the best result a foreigner had. Pretty sure Huk WINNING mlg would be a better pick lol. And we can boo whatever crowd we want for booing. Silly how this arguemnt can go round and round... No you have no reason to be upset. Why are you so mad that people dont like Naniwa. Last time I checked he hasnt proven himself with a GSL championship or MLG championship and bms worse than Idra. When was the last time he bmed? He called MLG a joke tournament out of frustration, nothing that hasn't happened before, and his temper is one of his flaws. He claims he never meant to disrespect Nestea, and as far as I can see he didn't. So when has he bmed since the days of old Naniwa who'd cheese every game, which was ages ago? As for proving himself...god damn man are you just biased against the guy? Over the last 3 days he beat MVP, Nestea, Nestea again, Huk, and DRG. Yeah he has no resul-OH WAIT he just took 2nd in the most stacked MLG ever. It was only about an hour ago, maybe you can recall it. And he has won an MLG. Thats a lot of excuses. He hasnt won anything, only thing he's proven is that he's good. The MLG he won was with zero koreans attending so yeah it was pretty much a joke. I'm not biased, its clear you are a raging Naniwa fanboy though.
Setting aside that he won the MLG Global Invitational two days ago, the only thing he's proven is he's good?
What the FUCK else is there to prove? What the fuck are you even saying?
You are biased. I am, indeed, a Naniwa fan, well spotted. You are also another one of those annoying kids who thinks that 'results' are the be all and end all. They are not. You don't need to win the tournament to prove yourself when you beat 5 of the undisputed best players in the world, back to back.
A very good night to you.
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On November 21 2011 12:09 Juvant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:04 Wallstreet11 wrote:On November 21 2011 11:59 Juvant wrote:On November 21 2011 11:57 Wallstreet11 wrote:
I recall Idra saying that the koreans were hypocrites(spelling) and that they were at least as BM as himself except for when the public were watching... This makes it even more disgusting when people are booing Naniwa for not even being that BM. I feel like calling the tournament all of these people are watching, the one that eventually handed him a 25000 dollar check, a joke tournament on stage in front of a crowd is quite worthy of some backlash. Feel like this is being extremely overlooked. I feel like you are forgetting a few thing 1. He did not have that 25,000 at this point in time 2. ANY mistake/error vs the absolute top of the worlds elite could very very possibly cost him exactly 25,000 or even 50,00$ I though agree that it seemed a bit hasty and harsh. But at the same time he does speak his mind and don´t you agree that you would have been pretty angry if this happened when you had that amount of pressure on you? I agree, but the pressure has to be assumed if he wishes to continue as a professional gamer. Biting the hand that feeds in front of a crowd had its consequences, and Naniwa, someone well versed in this kind of pressure, accepted those by doing so. Even Idra doesn't do this kind of thing in any of the high tier tournaments.
He gave Mana a nice big 'fuck you' in IPL2.
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On November 21 2011 12:57 jyLee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:51 Casablancas wrote:On November 21 2011 12:43 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:38 Jiddra wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:28 Casablancas wrote:On November 21 2011 12:25 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:17 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:14 jyLee wrote:So now that he apologised its all good, lol. He's bm and hes proven it multiple times at this mlg. Maybe you didnt catch him trashing MLG during a game either. Dude has zero class and nobody can blame fans for booing him. Apologised for the miscommunication. Because that's what it was; he didn't apologise for calling Professor Tea an idiot, he apologised for appearing to when he really didn't mean to. I saw him calling MLG a joke tournament. As I pointed out, Idra has done the same and worse and he still gets some of the loudest support. So now your just crying about why Naniwa has no friends when Idra has so many. I just cannot fathom why anyone would be angry at the fans for booing an unlikable person. Real mature. Immature for saying people shouldnt boo at a player who just accomplished maybe the best result a foreigner have ever done? No immature for being mad at fans for booing. Fans can boo whoever the hell they please and who can blame them for booing Naniwa after his actions. Also maybe you should check your facts before claiming Naniwa had the best result a foreigner had. Pretty sure Huk WINNING mlg would be a better pick lol. And we can boo whatever crowd we want for booing. Silly how this arguemnt can go round and round... No you have no reason to be upset. Why are you so mad that people dont like Naniwa. Last time I checked he hasnt proven himself with a GSL championship or MLG championship and bms worse than Idra. Ok, im gonna stop arguing with you after this post. You obviously dont follow the scene. Naniwa won MLG Dallas and the Global invitational at MLG and got to the final today. In a weekend where he beat Nestea twice in bo3's. A Zerg who has been way more accomplished than Idra in GSL. Speaking of GSL, Idra did ro8 as best result, after how long in Korea? Lets see if not Naniwa can keep his momentum up and do something similar. And go google Idra BM and find out that youre wrong again, flipping of is worse then thumbs down, right? LOL feel free to google MLG Dallas and then maybe you will have enough esport education to actually prove me wrong. Naniwa is a good player that hasnt won anything meaningful. Do you give credit to Nestea for making it to GSL finals but losing to MVP? Its kinda pathetic how the Naniwa fanboys are trying to validate his prowess with examples of games he's taken off top notch players when you really should be arguing about what championships he's won. As of now Naniwa isnt even close to being the best foreigner, that title belongs to Huk until further notice.
....Yes. Yes, I do consider Nestea good when he merely finals. No I do not think winning a tournament and ONLY winning a tournament is a sign of skill.
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On November 21 2011 13:00 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:50 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:47 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:43 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:38 Jiddra wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:28 Casablancas wrote:On November 21 2011 12:25 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:17 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:14 jyLee wrote:
[quote]
So now that he apologised its all good, lol. He's bm and hes proven it multiple times at this mlg. Maybe you didnt catch him trashing MLG during a game either. Dude has zero class and nobody can blame fans for booing him. Apologised for the miscommunication. Because that's what it was; he didn't apologise for calling Professor Tea an idiot, he apologised for appearing to when he really didn't mean to. I saw him calling MLG a joke tournament. As I pointed out, Idra has done the same and worse and he still gets some of the loudest support. So now your just crying about why Naniwa has no friends when Idra has so many. I just cannot fathom why anyone would be angry at the fans for booing an unlikable person. Real mature. Immature for saying people shouldnt boo at a player who just accomplished maybe the best result a foreigner have ever done? No immature for being mad at fans for booing. Fans can boo whoever the hell they please and who can blame them for booing Naniwa after his actions. Also maybe you should check your facts before claiming Naniwa had the best result a foreigner had. Pretty sure Huk WINNING mlg would be a better pick lol. And we can boo whatever crowd we want for booing. Silly how this arguemnt can go round and round... No you have no reason to be upset. Why are you so mad that people dont like Naniwa. Last time I checked he hasnt proven himself with a GSL championship or MLG championship and bms worse than Idra. When was the last time he bmed? He called MLG a joke tournament out of frustration, nothing that hasn't happened before, and his temper is one of his flaws. He claims he never meant to disrespect Nestea, and as far as I can see he didn't. So when has he bmed since the days of old Naniwa who'd cheese every game, which was ages ago? As for proving himself...god damn man are you just biased against the guy? Over the last 3 days he beat MVP, Nestea, Nestea again, Huk, and DRG. Yeah he has no resul-OH WAIT he just took 2nd in the most stacked MLG ever. It was only about an hour ago, maybe you can recall it. And he has won an MLG. Thats a lot of excuses. He hasnt won anything, only thing he's proven is that he's good. The MLG he won was with zero koreans attending so yeah it was pretty much a joke. I'm not biased, its clear you are a raging Naniwa fanboy though. Setting aside that he won the MLG Global Invitational two days ago, the only thing he's proven is he's good? What the FUCK else is there to prove? What the fuck are you even saying? You are biased. I am, indeed, a Naniwa fan, well spotted. A very good night to you.
He's proven that he has the talent and potential. But you're a nobody in my books until you reach at least Ro8 in Code S.
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On November 21 2011 12:54 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:36 jj33 wrote:Also, the top korean players like flash etc aren't the top because they just play alot, they are talented.
Playing alot is a GIVEN. What separates a good pro from the cream of the crop like bisu/flash/Jaedong is their talent.
So no it's not just training. If it's just mass training, why don't you go and do it? Since you hate koreans why don't you go beat them? It's near proven that experts are trained and not born. Amount of training is only a factor, more important is quality of training. Koreans aren't genetically better, and it's odd that you'd claim that absolutely without evidence. Case in point; a married couple of scientists raised their 3 daughters to play chess to try and prove that men weren't automatically better at the game; I believe all 3 girls were grandmasters at a young age.
bullcrap.
Talent is very real. some people are just way more naturally talented than others. everybody is built differently.
Michael Jordan is the greatest bball player of all time because not only did he work hard, but he was EXTREMELY talented.
can't believe there are people out that actually believe talent isn't real.
Also WHERE DID I SAY KOREANS ARE GENETICALLY SUPERIOR? I said jaedong/flash/bisu are extremely talented and they are. I name those three, because they are the best bw players of all time.
has nothing to do with race.
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EPT
