• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 16:41
CET 22:41
KST 06:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge2[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA15
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death
Brood War
General
2v2 maps which are SC2 style with teams together? Data analysis on 70 million replays BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
[BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine About SC2SEA.COM
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2080 users

MLG Providence Day 3 Live Report Thread - Page 890

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
Post a Reply
Prev 1 888 889 890
Here we go again. This weekend is about good games and good fun. Don't rain on that parade. Play nice guys. Here's the very standard and friendly:

- NO Balance Whine.
- NO Player Bashing.
- NO Caster Bashing.
- NO BM whatsoever.

Breaking these rules (from pg 166 forward) will be met with severe punishment.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
November 22 2011 18:48 GMT
#17781
On November 23 2011 01:38 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 01:30 Whitewing wrote:
On November 23 2011 01:10 Xercen wrote:
On November 22 2011 06:31 SeaSwift wrote:
On November 22 2011 06:20 StarStruck wrote:

For some players it's very hard to adapt their openings on the fly especially when they are as stubborn as Naniwa. Not necessarily a bad trait to have. As I mentioned earlier, KTF_Flash is very similar: Flash would constantly use 14CC openings to gain the upper hand on his opponent. He had great success with it and he still does; however, some players would eventually punish Flash for using it as his main opening.

You see the parallelism?

Thus there is no need to be calling anyone a one trick pony in this case.


It has to be said though, after getting all-ined twice while using the same build and losing both times, Flash would have got the message, and would likely have already prepared a follow-up strategy in case his original failed.

MC in particular (no bias, honest ) is well-known for mixing up his openings vs Zerg: Sometimes 1base Stargate, sometimes FFE (nexus first or otherwise), sometimes 2/3gate expand, sometimes 1gate expand into fast Void Rays. Lately, he has been doing more FFEs but I think this is partly map dependent and partly just a trend in Protoss play.


Agreed. Naniwa just didn't have any plan B. He kept on doing FFE on every single map for some reason. I have no idea why people say naniwa is better than leenock in a macro game because if he felt that way himself then he would have gone for 3 gate expand; i.e something much safer than a blind FFE on every single map including xel naga which is prolly the worst map for it. 3 gate sentry FE would enable him to go to a macro game where naniwa would undoubtedly win according to his biased fans. Unfortunately, naniwa must have either tilted again or felt that his macro wasn't on par with leenock so he decided to go for a FEE every single game which to be honest, wasn't very strange, because naniwa always tilts in big games. He is a top player no doubt (definately code S level) but i remember he lost vs thorzain and huk in those big finals because he lacks mental strength. Hopefully he can sort himself out and become stronger mentally. He is basically equivalent to andy murray in tennis terms. Has all the talent but lacks mental strength.


3 gate sentry expand puts you at an economic disadvantage vs. zerg if you actually play it safely. Zergs will often make a bunch of lings and attack if you try to take your nexus when you have 2-3 sentries and a zealot (which is the old timing before the warp gate nerf), so you have to wait until warp gate is done for it to actually be safe. End result is that you're playing from behind for the rest of the game.


That's exactly the same position a zerg is in vs a FFE tho. It's fine that Nani tried to play it like this every game, but his build just wasn't safe. Perfect example of that is his fifth game on XNC where his forge wasn't even covered by a cannon, which is the most basic thing ever when it comes to a FFE. At that point you're just crossing your fingers and praying for your opponent to be blind and mess up his response.

You can't expect your opponents to mess up every single game of the entire tournament, and he lost, as he deserved to.


Well, no, it's not quite the same situation. While you are correct in the sense that zerg gets to take a fast third safely in response, therefore is up a base and therefore has an econ advantage, the FFE keeps you equal on workers for a very long time: until you've got your initial mid-game plan going (whether it be 6 gate pressure/all-in, or 5 gate robo or something else). FFE does a much better job keeping you even on economy going into the mid-game, and while it can't keep up forever (eventually zerg does get the ability to make use of all that extra larva), it keeps up much longer.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
November 22 2011 18:50 GMT
#17782
On November 23 2011 01:34 SeaSwift wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 01:30 Whitewing wrote:
On November 23 2011 01:10 Xercen wrote:
On November 22 2011 06:31 SeaSwift wrote:
On November 22 2011 06:20 StarStruck wrote:

For some players it's very hard to adapt their openings on the fly especially when they are as stubborn as Naniwa. Not necessarily a bad trait to have. As I mentioned earlier, KTF_Flash is very similar: Flash would constantly use 14CC openings to gain the upper hand on his opponent. He had great success with it and he still does; however, some players would eventually punish Flash for using it as his main opening.

You see the parallelism?

Thus there is no need to be calling anyone a one trick pony in this case.


It has to be said though, after getting all-ined twice while using the same build and losing both times, Flash would have got the message, and would likely have already prepared a follow-up strategy in case his original failed.

MC in particular (no bias, honest ) is well-known for mixing up his openings vs Zerg: Sometimes 1base Stargate, sometimes FFE (nexus first or otherwise), sometimes 2/3gate expand, sometimes 1gate expand into fast Void Rays. Lately, he has been doing more FFEs but I think this is partly map dependent and partly just a trend in Protoss play.


Agreed. Naniwa just didn't have any plan B. He kept on doing FFE on every single map for some reason. I have no idea why people say naniwa is better than leenock in a macro game because if he felt that way himself then he would have gone for 3 gate expand; i.e something much safer than a blind FFE on every single map including xel naga which is prolly the worst map for it. 3 gate sentry FE would enable him to go to a macro game where naniwa would undoubtedly win according to his biased fans. Unfortunately, naniwa must have either tilted again or felt that his macro wasn't on par with leenock so he decided to go for a FEE every single game which to be honest, wasn't very strange, because naniwa always tilts in big games. He is a top player no doubt (definately code S level) but i remember he lost vs thorzain and huk in those big finals because he lacks mental strength. Hopefully he can sort himself out and become stronger mentally. He is basically equivalent to andy murray in tennis terms. Has all the talent but lacks mental strength.


3 gate sentry expand puts you at an economic disadvantage vs. zerg if you actually play it safely. Zergs will often make a bunch of lings and attack if you try to take your nexus when you have 2-3 sentries and a zealot (which is the old timing before the warp gate nerf), so you have to wait until warp gate is done for it to actually be safe. End result is that you're playing from behind for the rest of the game.


...Which is better than outright dying every single game, no?


If he thought he could hold it (which he clearly did or he wouldn't have done it), then it's clearly the right choice. He actually COULDN'T hold it, but he thought he could, so that's where his decision making was. That said, automatically playing from behind out of the gate isn't necessarily better than doing something risky early on to stay even.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Prev 1 888 889 890
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL 21
20:00
RO16 TieBreaker - Group B
StRyKeR vs Artosis
OyAji vs KameZerg
ZZZero.O406
LiquipediaDiscussion
IPSL
20:00
Ro16 Group C
StRyKeR vs OldBoy
Sziky vs Tarson
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
White-Ra 296
JuggernautJason118
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2714
ZZZero.O 406
Dota 2
LuMiX1
League of Legends
rGuardiaN45
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor349
Other Games
Grubby6324
FrodaN2084
Mlord591
B2W.Neo438
Pyrionflax227
ArmadaUGS150
Maynarde17
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV1896
gamesdonequick910
StarCraft 2
angryscii 53
Other Games
BasetradeTV47
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta107
• Hupsaiya 56
• Adnapsc2 10
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach42
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler112
Other Games
• imaqtpie1548
• tFFMrPink 13
Upcoming Events
OSC
1h 20m
OSC
11h 20m
Wardi Open
14h 20m
Monday Night Weeklies
19h 20m
OSC
1d 1h
Wardi Open
1d 14h
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
LAN Event
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-21
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.