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MLG Providence Day 3 Live Report Thread - Page 890

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Here we go again. This weekend is about good games and good fun. Don't rain on that parade. Play nice guys. Here's the very standard and friendly:

- NO Balance Whine.
- NO Player Bashing.
- NO Caster Bashing.
- NO BM whatsoever.

Breaking these rules (from pg 166 forward) will be met with severe punishment.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
November 22 2011 18:48 GMT
#17781
On November 23 2011 01:38 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 01:30 Whitewing wrote:
On November 23 2011 01:10 Xercen wrote:
On November 22 2011 06:31 SeaSwift wrote:
On November 22 2011 06:20 StarStruck wrote:

For some players it's very hard to adapt their openings on the fly especially when they are as stubborn as Naniwa. Not necessarily a bad trait to have. As I mentioned earlier, KTF_Flash is very similar: Flash would constantly use 14CC openings to gain the upper hand on his opponent. He had great success with it and he still does; however, some players would eventually punish Flash for using it as his main opening.

You see the parallelism?

Thus there is no need to be calling anyone a one trick pony in this case.


It has to be said though, after getting all-ined twice while using the same build and losing both times, Flash would have got the message, and would likely have already prepared a follow-up strategy in case his original failed.

MC in particular (no bias, honest ) is well-known for mixing up his openings vs Zerg: Sometimes 1base Stargate, sometimes FFE (nexus first or otherwise), sometimes 2/3gate expand, sometimes 1gate expand into fast Void Rays. Lately, he has been doing more FFEs but I think this is partly map dependent and partly just a trend in Protoss play.


Agreed. Naniwa just didn't have any plan B. He kept on doing FFE on every single map for some reason. I have no idea why people say naniwa is better than leenock in a macro game because if he felt that way himself then he would have gone for 3 gate expand; i.e something much safer than a blind FFE on every single map including xel naga which is prolly the worst map for it. 3 gate sentry FE would enable him to go to a macro game where naniwa would undoubtedly win according to his biased fans. Unfortunately, naniwa must have either tilted again or felt that his macro wasn't on par with leenock so he decided to go for a FEE every single game which to be honest, wasn't very strange, because naniwa always tilts in big games. He is a top player no doubt (definately code S level) but i remember he lost vs thorzain and huk in those big finals because he lacks mental strength. Hopefully he can sort himself out and become stronger mentally. He is basically equivalent to andy murray in tennis terms. Has all the talent but lacks mental strength.


3 gate sentry expand puts you at an economic disadvantage vs. zerg if you actually play it safely. Zergs will often make a bunch of lings and attack if you try to take your nexus when you have 2-3 sentries and a zealot (which is the old timing before the warp gate nerf), so you have to wait until warp gate is done for it to actually be safe. End result is that you're playing from behind for the rest of the game.


That's exactly the same position a zerg is in vs a FFE tho. It's fine that Nani tried to play it like this every game, but his build just wasn't safe. Perfect example of that is his fifth game on XNC where his forge wasn't even covered by a cannon, which is the most basic thing ever when it comes to a FFE. At that point you're just crossing your fingers and praying for your opponent to be blind and mess up his response.

You can't expect your opponents to mess up every single game of the entire tournament, and he lost, as he deserved to.


Well, no, it's not quite the same situation. While you are correct in the sense that zerg gets to take a fast third safely in response, therefore is up a base and therefore has an econ advantage, the FFE keeps you equal on workers for a very long time: until you've got your initial mid-game plan going (whether it be 6 gate pressure/all-in, or 5 gate robo or something else). FFE does a much better job keeping you even on economy going into the mid-game, and while it can't keep up forever (eventually zerg does get the ability to make use of all that extra larva), it keeps up much longer.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
November 22 2011 18:50 GMT
#17782
On November 23 2011 01:34 SeaSwift wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 01:30 Whitewing wrote:
On November 23 2011 01:10 Xercen wrote:
On November 22 2011 06:31 SeaSwift wrote:
On November 22 2011 06:20 StarStruck wrote:

For some players it's very hard to adapt their openings on the fly especially when they are as stubborn as Naniwa. Not necessarily a bad trait to have. As I mentioned earlier, KTF_Flash is very similar: Flash would constantly use 14CC openings to gain the upper hand on his opponent. He had great success with it and he still does; however, some players would eventually punish Flash for using it as his main opening.

You see the parallelism?

Thus there is no need to be calling anyone a one trick pony in this case.


It has to be said though, after getting all-ined twice while using the same build and losing both times, Flash would have got the message, and would likely have already prepared a follow-up strategy in case his original failed.

MC in particular (no bias, honest ) is well-known for mixing up his openings vs Zerg: Sometimes 1base Stargate, sometimes FFE (nexus first or otherwise), sometimes 2/3gate expand, sometimes 1gate expand into fast Void Rays. Lately, he has been doing more FFEs but I think this is partly map dependent and partly just a trend in Protoss play.


Agreed. Naniwa just didn't have any plan B. He kept on doing FFE on every single map for some reason. I have no idea why people say naniwa is better than leenock in a macro game because if he felt that way himself then he would have gone for 3 gate expand; i.e something much safer than a blind FFE on every single map including xel naga which is prolly the worst map for it. 3 gate sentry FE would enable him to go to a macro game where naniwa would undoubtedly win according to his biased fans. Unfortunately, naniwa must have either tilted again or felt that his macro wasn't on par with leenock so he decided to go for a FEE every single game which to be honest, wasn't very strange, because naniwa always tilts in big games. He is a top player no doubt (definately code S level) but i remember he lost vs thorzain and huk in those big finals because he lacks mental strength. Hopefully he can sort himself out and become stronger mentally. He is basically equivalent to andy murray in tennis terms. Has all the talent but lacks mental strength.


3 gate sentry expand puts you at an economic disadvantage vs. zerg if you actually play it safely. Zergs will often make a bunch of lings and attack if you try to take your nexus when you have 2-3 sentries and a zealot (which is the old timing before the warp gate nerf), so you have to wait until warp gate is done for it to actually be safe. End result is that you're playing from behind for the rest of the game.


...Which is better than outright dying every single game, no?


If he thought he could hold it (which he clearly did or he wouldn't have done it), then it's clearly the right choice. He actually COULDN'T hold it, but he thought he could, so that's where his decision making was. That said, automatically playing from behind out of the gate isn't necessarily better than doing something risky early on to stay even.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
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