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Here we go again. This weekend is about good games and good fun. Don't rain on that parade. Play nice guys. Here's the very standard and friendly:
- NO Balance Whine.
- NO Player Bashing.
- NO Caster Bashing.
- NO BM whatsoever.
Breaking these rules (from pg 166 forward) will be met with severe punishment. |
dude, leenock went 34-5 maps this weekend. He lost 3 maps to DRG, but won him 4-3 overall, lost 1 map to mma and 1 map to naniwa. 34-5. 34... wow
That is mindblowing for a 16 year old kid at his first international event. GZ Leenock !!!
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On November 21 2011 13:03 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:56 DamageControL wrote:On November 21 2011 12:52 Defacer wrote:
I just wanted to add that I thought it was a great finals, that you can only appreciate in the context of the whole tournament.
Naniwa looked like he had Zerg solved, but thankfully Leenock solved Naniwa. They both had brilliant runs and deserve a lot of credit. Did it look to anyone else like Leenock was not fully confident in his zvp? He's good, don't get me wrong, but his builds seemed designed to net him early advantages riskily. Did anyone think that maybe he was worried about an even macro game? Not to take anything away from him. It obviously worked. But I would only question whether he's capable of adapting against other tosses. The way I see it, Leenock did the only thing that all the other Zerg's didn't have the nerve to do. Naniwa's two-base army compositions were so strong, and to give him a mid-game advantage would pretty much keep a macro game from ever developing -- Naniwa was consistently applying pressure to his zerg opponents third's, while doing sick phoenix and warp prism harass in the mains. Basically, Naniwa is too good to allow him to get an easy expansion and solid mid-game army. I'm sure other zerg players like Nestea recognized how risky Naniwa's fast expand actually was, but weren't willing to deviate far enough from standard play to capitalize.
Nestea attempted what Leenock did with a 10pool and proved that it's not early enough. Having seen that earlier in the tournament probably explains why Leenock went 6 pool. When you consider the high level ZvP's naniwa had played this weekend it's not suprising that Leenock had enough information to work out a strategy to take him down.
Naniwa should have changed his build, or even gone for something super cheesy in game 3 when he had less to lose and everything to win.
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On November 21 2011 13:03 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:02 jj33 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:54 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jj33 wrote:Also, the top korean players like flash etc aren't the top because they just play alot, they are talented.
Playing alot is a GIVEN. What separates a good pro from the cream of the crop like bisu/flash/Jaedong is their talent.
So no it's not just training. If it's just mass training, why don't you go and do it? Since you hate koreans why don't you go beat them? It's near proven that experts are trained and not born. Amount of training is only a factor, more important is quality of training. Koreans aren't genetically better, and it's odd that you'd claim that absolutely without evidence. Case in point; a married couple of scientists raised their 3 daughters to play chess to try and prove that men weren't automatically better at the game; I believe all 3 girls were grandmasters at a young age. bullcrap. Talent is very real. some people are just way more naturally talented than others. everybody is built differently. Michael Jordan is the greatest bball player of all time because not only did he work hard, but he was EXTREMELY talented. can't believe there are people out that actually believe talent isn't real. Also WHERE DID I SAY KOREANS ARE GENETICALLY SUPERIOR? I said jaedong/flash/bisu are extremely talented and they are. I name those three, because they are the best bw players of all time. has nothing to do with race. You have nothing to support your assertions, though. You are simply repeating them.
of cause there is talent.
Tesla for example is one hell of a scientist.
I don't think there is any argument in that.
Or musical talents like absolute pitch which is another very good one.
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On November 21 2011 13:10 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:08 DamageControL wrote:On November 21 2011 13:02 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 13:00 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:50 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:47 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:43 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:38 Jiddra wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:28 Casablancas wrote:
[quote]
Immature for saying people shouldnt boo at a player who just accomplished maybe the best result a foreigner have ever done?
No immature for being mad at fans for booing. Fans can boo whoever the hell they please and who can blame them for booing Naniwa after his actions. Also maybe you should check your facts before claiming Naniwa had the best result a foreigner had. Pretty sure Huk WINNING mlg would be a better pick lol. And we can boo whatever crowd we want for booing. Silly how this arguemnt can go round and round... No you have no reason to be upset. Why are you so mad that people dont like Naniwa. Last time I checked he hasnt proven himself with a GSL championship or MLG championship and bms worse than Idra. When was the last time he bmed? He called MLG a joke tournament out of frustration, nothing that hasn't happened before, and his temper is one of his flaws. He claims he never meant to disrespect Nestea, and as far as I can see he didn't. So when has he bmed since the days of old Naniwa who'd cheese every game, which was ages ago? As for proving himself...god damn man are you just biased against the guy? Over the last 3 days he beat MVP, Nestea, Nestea again, Huk, and DRG. Yeah he has no resul-OH WAIT he just took 2nd in the most stacked MLG ever. It was only about an hour ago, maybe you can recall it. And he has won an MLG. Thats a lot of excuses. He hasnt won anything, only thing he's proven is that he's good. The MLG he won was with zero koreans attending so yeah it was pretty much a joke. I'm not biased, its clear you are a raging Naniwa fanboy though. Setting aside that he won the MLG Global Invitational two days ago, the only thing he's proven is he's good? What the FUCK else is there to prove? What the fuck are you even saying? You are biased. I am, indeed, a Naniwa fan, well spotted. A very good night to you. Why are you not banned yet? Its like you dont even bother reading. What he's done to distinguish himself from players like HuK or Idra is defeating the very best: MMA and Nestea. You can argue why those achievements are not meaningful, but he did it in an offline tournament. So yeah. HuK also won a tournament (MLG) and is also in contention, but he finished much lower in the tournament that you are degrading Nani for "only" placing second in. HuK is consistently on Code S though, I think nani had an awesome run, but I don't think he's solid enough to remain in Code S for long, particularly now that the format is even less forgiving. We'll have to see. Definitely true. It's just really weird to say that Nani is not worthy in any way of being in contention for best foreigner. For sure. he has a lot left to prove, though.
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On November 21 2011 13:12 ptz wrote:
dude, leenock went 34-5 maps this weekend. He lost 3 maps to DRG, but won him 4-3 overall, lost 1 map to mma and 1 map to naniwa. 34-5. 34... wow
That is mindblowing for a 16 year old kid at his first international event. GZ Leenock !!!
Yea i saw the brackets at liquipedia and his runthrough has been ridiculous.
I did not forsee him winning at all.
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So basically koreans are just harder working which makes them good at starcraft, but to play devil advocate with the 'genetics' argument some are saying - I did hear they have one of highest if not the highest average IQ of all peoples.
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On November 21 2011 13:11 Jemesatui wrote:
Koreans are and always will be better than foreigners in sc2 because of their culture.
The argument is a matter if potential, and the cultures capacity to exploit this to reach the best possible results.
America does not have this capacity, hence foreigners training in Korea.
Nothing to do with genes, IQ or any other dumb suggestions people keep throwing.
Koreans hold a sense of pride for being the e-sports nation, just like Americans like to think they are the 'land of opportunity' and the biggest super power.
The difference is, Korea is the e sports nation, and America will soon fall behind china in military and economic power...
Korea have embraced e sports, while America never will, as being rich, powerful and high on the social heirarchy has been Ingrained into their culture.
What in the world is this
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On November 21 2011 13:05 Wallstreet11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:47 ETisME wrote:On November 21 2011 12:35 Wallstreet11 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:07 jj33 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:05 quancer wrote:On November 21 2011 11:57 Wallstreet11 wrote:
Naniwa for pres!
Him and Huk shows that koreans are not special and that foreigners with the same training partners/schedules can beat any of the top koreans. Then we have the master mind Stephano who is just a natural born killer.
All this flak for not kissing everyones ass is so sad. Naniwa is just speaking his mind. I bet all the koreans there gave Leenock tips of how to beat Naniwas usual build cause all koreans think so highly of themselves(DRG wasn´t even rooting for his teammate)...
I recall Idra saying that the koreans were hypocrites(spelling) and that they were at least as BM as himself except for when the public were watching... This makes it even more disgusting when people are booing Naniwa for not even being that BM. Get this nationalistic, borderline racist, shit out of here. People like you make the world suck. He's definitely racist. where does he even get that part where "koreans think so highly of themselves?" I know exactly where, racists like him when the target people he does not like win, he has to find ways to antagonize them. this kid is pathetic Koreans don't have problems with foreigners doing well. Oh wake up. That´s why all the korean teams collectively whine when foreign organisations pick up good korean players? You don´t think that this elitist approach has any value to them? That the brand of "capital of E-sport" doesn´t lead to big revenues for the nation? MUCH hangs on them being seen as the E-sport nation. I guess you also can´t say that Americans also generally holds themselves very high cause they have such a big influence in the world through economic, political and military power? I think the korean top are elitist and that they generally don´t like foreigners showing them up... Ego is necessary and it is an effective motivational force, but that means it is so much more fun when their illusion gets a crack(schadenfreud). As I said I love to root for the underdogs in this case and the consensus is that the koreans are the top dogs atm. Simple as that. Naive people like you who only believes what they see on the very surface are never gonna get ahead in life. I think this deserves to be the most idiotic thing I have ever read on TL. As delusional as possible yet calling the others who actually follow the scene "naive"....just wow guess what, you have to earn the "captial of esport" title, that's where the good players are trained and where the ones who want to be good go. It's not hanging on, they have earned it. SCBW IS their national pride game, NOT sc2. Where did you get this SC2 is their precious game, I have no idea. Wow where should I even start... First of all. When the SCBW pros makes the transition. Is it still not gonna be a pride thing in your eyes? Secondly. Do you buy all what for example commercials say also?... On the outside all koreans are mannered and people rage on those who speak their mind or shows any negative emotions. When you watch streams here on TL when foreigners play koreans BM is pretty common. Idra who is one of those who speaks freely has said many times that the korean scene is so cuddly and mannered on the surface but that there are much BM in reality. I mean come on, OF COURSE they have huge pride and ego when it comes to SC2. The original game pretty much was 99% korean dominated... It´s natural that they think that SC2 is their territory as well. This is why I see them as the top dogs and I think the community in general regards them as that... which makes beating them even more fun. The greater the climb... The bigger the fall. Another example: Why do you think such a big part of the world dislikes USA? Do you think it is because they literally have been mugged by an actual american or that it has to do with their attitude and how they see themselves?
dude, the fact that your initial post has been quoted by SEVERAL people and marked as "one of the dumbest posts on TL" not only by me, but many other users should make you think.
when you pick a certain group of people, put them in a group you created (that meets conditions you created) and hate them, that's racism.
that's what you are doing with koreans here.
also, the example you made about canadians proofed even more that what you have is merely racism.
all your posts denote a lot of infantilism and definitely a lot of racism.
i'd stop making more examples if i were you, you are just showing us how wrong you are.
this last example regarding the USA is borderline retarded
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Booing is great. It shows the fans are emotionally invested in the matchup. Having "the bad guy" to cheer against is just as important as having the hero to root for. Things only get out of hand when people can't separate entertainment from reality and start hating players away from the game. I hope nani can embrace the role and use it to his advantage.
I thought it was a fantastic finals because nani was easy to root against and because Leenock totally outsmarted his opponent. Great tourney altogether.
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On November 21 2011 13:10 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:06 Quiescence wrote:On November 21 2011 13:02 jj33 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:54 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jj33 wrote:Also, the top korean players like flash etc aren't the top because they just play alot, they are talented.
Playing alot is a GIVEN. What separates a good pro from the cream of the crop like bisu/flash/Jaedong is their talent.
So no it's not just training. If it's just mass training, why don't you go and do it? Since you hate koreans why don't you go beat them? It's near proven that experts are trained and not born. Amount of training is only a factor, more important is quality of training. Koreans aren't genetically better, and it's odd that you'd claim that absolutely without evidence. Case in point; a married couple of scientists raised their 3 daughters to play chess to try and prove that men weren't automatically better at the game; I believe all 3 girls were grandmasters at a young age. bullcrap. Talent is very real. some people are just way more naturally talented than others. everybody is built differently. Michael Jordan is the greatest bball player of all time because not only did he work hard, but he was EXTREMELY talented. can't believe there are people out that actually believe talent isn't real. Also WHERE DID I SAY KOREANS ARE GENETICALLY SUPERIOR? I said jaedong/flash/bisu are extremely talented and they are. I name those three, because they are the best bw players of all time. has nothing to do with race. I agree. BW players like JD, Flash, Bisu are talented AND hard working. That's why they consistently place at the top with similar training schedules with many teammates. A few players being talented doesn't mean a whole nation is somehow genetically superior. There could be just as many talented players at Flash's level in North America. But guess what? There's ISN'T a infrastructure here to discover those talents! Talented Player X isn't going to dominate in BW if he doesn't even train in it or play it. hahahaha oh lord. "There could be just as many talented players at FLASH's level in NA." - what are you smoking. There is no one near his talent level in NA. And it ain't just because we haven't found them in the basement's all over the U.S. Flash's talent evolved over many years of practice and hard work.
You proved my point exactly.
I didn't deny Flash's dedication and hard work? He was one of the best out of thousands of professionals.
But really, how many people outside of Korea had the opportunity to even be involved in BW close to him and other BW pros? He got selected into a professional team since his teens. How good was he before extensive training focused around him. It took years for him to be where he is now.
Now take all that away from him. How good would he be if you dragged him out of the blue, without a day of professional trainning, and say： ”win an OSL. good luck there." He'll have the same talent, but he's sure to not win a single set.
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On November 21 2011 13:10 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:06 Quiescence wrote:On November 21 2011 13:02 jj33 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:54 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jj33 wrote:Also, the top korean players like flash etc aren't the top because they just play alot, they are talented.
Playing alot is a GIVEN. What separates a good pro from the cream of the crop like bisu/flash/Jaedong is their talent.
So no it's not just training. If it's just mass training, why don't you go and do it? Since you hate koreans why don't you go beat them? It's near proven that experts are trained and not born. Amount of training is only a factor, more important is quality of training. Koreans aren't genetically better, and it's odd that you'd claim that absolutely without evidence. Case in point; a married couple of scientists raised their 3 daughters to play chess to try and prove that men weren't automatically better at the game; I believe all 3 girls were grandmasters at a young age. bullcrap. Talent is very real. some people are just way more naturally talented than others. everybody is built differently. Michael Jordan is the greatest bball player of all time because not only did he work hard, but he was EXTREMELY talented. can't believe there are people out that actually believe talent isn't real. Also WHERE DID I SAY KOREANS ARE GENETICALLY SUPERIOR? I said jaedong/flash/bisu are extremely talented and they are. I name those three, because they are the best bw players of all time. has nothing to do with race. I agree. BW players like JD, Flash, Bisu are talented AND hard working. That's why they consistently place at the top with similar training schedules with many teammates. A few players being talented doesn't mean a whole nation is somehow genetically superior. There could be just as many talented players at Flash's level in North America. But guess what? There's ISN'T a infrastructure here to discover those talents! Talented Player X isn't going to dominate in BW if he doesn't even train in it or play it. hahahaha oh lord. "There could be just as many talented players at FLASH's level in NA." - what are you smoking. There is no one near his talent level in NA. And it ain't just because we haven't found them in the basement's all over the U.S. Flash's talent evolved over many years of practice and hard work.
He said "there could be" and therefore not saying there actually is. "There could be someone as good as Flash if NA supports BW as much as Korea." - I think that was what he meant. 
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On November 21 2011 13:12 ptz wrote:
dude, leenock went 34-5 maps this weekend. He lost 3 maps to DRG, but won him 4-3 overall, lost 1 map to mma and 1 map to naniwa. 34-5. 34... wow
That is mindblowing for a 16 year old kid at his first international event. GZ Leenock !!!
And to think he almost didnt get flown over to MLG...
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Koreans are incredibly nationalistic, just like everyone else in the world.
I do remember Seoul receiving a warning from the UN about nationalistic views though. And after living here for quite awhile, you definitely see and experience it, though you'd get a similar experience moving to the southern US. It's something that makes working with my Korean co-workers difficult at times, because I never accept their views, I always fight them, haha. It's mostly the older generation though, the younger ones are generally more informed.
Also, I suspect a great many posters here are posting about Koreans while actually never having lived in Korea. You really can't support either stance in that case.
Great finals though, Leenock really earned it!
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This thread has truly turned from MLG Providence to a talent/hard work thread
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On November 21 2011 13:12 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:03 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 13:02 jj33 wrote:On November 21 2011 12:54 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jj33 wrote:Also, the top korean players like flash etc aren't the top because they just play alot, they are talented.
Playing alot is a GIVEN. What separates a good pro from the cream of the crop like bisu/flash/Jaedong is their talent.
So no it's not just training. If it's just mass training, why don't you go and do it? Since you hate koreans why don't you go beat them? It's near proven that experts are trained and not born. Amount of training is only a factor, more important is quality of training. Koreans aren't genetically better, and it's odd that you'd claim that absolutely without evidence. Case in point; a married couple of scientists raised their 3 daughters to play chess to try and prove that men weren't automatically better at the game; I believe all 3 girls were grandmasters at a young age. bullcrap. Talent is very real. some people are just way more naturally talented than others. everybody is built differently. Michael Jordan is the greatest bball player of all time because not only did he work hard, but he was EXTREMELY talented. can't believe there are people out that actually believe talent isn't real. Also WHERE DID I SAY KOREANS ARE GENETICALLY SUPERIOR? I said jaedong/flash/bisu are extremely talented and they are. I name those three, because they are the best bw players of all time. has nothing to do with race. You have nothing to support your assertions, though. You are simply repeating them. of cause there is talent. Tesla for example is one. I don't think there is any argument in that. Or musical talents like absolute pitch which is another very good one.
There is a whole generation who have been lied to that "everyone is equal" and honestly believe that if you work hard enough you can do anything.
It's a LIE. You can't. I'm sorry, I really am, but no matter how much you train or work at something, there is more to being the best in the world than lots and lots of practise.
Stephano is a great example. He doesn't play a gazillion games a night. He doesn't live in a house full of experts and spend every waking moment eating and breathing SC2 yet he's right up there at the top.
Just like you don't see 4 foot 2 basketballers, peoples brains are different. Some people think differently. You can improve to a certain point, but if you can't make snap decisions intuitively then you're not going to make it to the top level of the game.
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On November 21 2011 13:02 jj33 wrote:
bullcrap.
Talent is very real. some people are just way more naturally talented than others. everybody is built differently.
Michael Jordan is the greatest bball player of all time because not only did he work hard, but he was EXTREMELY talented.
can't believe there are people out that actually believe talent isn't real.
Well, I would say that the issue is not completely solved one way or another.
If Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time because of his natural talent, why was he cut from his high school team?
When people asked him about this, he said: "I think that not making the Varsity team drove me to really work at my game, and also taught me that if you set goals, and work hard to achieve them—the hard work can pay off."
I've read some biographies that indicate that Jordan practiced harder than almost anyone else. He never stopped trying to improve, even after he won a championship.
In hockey, Wayne Gretzky spent every single evening as a child outside the house on a frozen rink his father made refining his shot. In the NHL he continued to practice more than most other pros. Sidney Crosby is known to be the first on the ice in practice and the last off.
Similarly, in Brood War, we have Jaedong, who once admitted that prior to his first OSL win against Stork that he "practiced so much that his eyes bled". I remember another interview with Jaedong where a teammate was surprised that he continued to practice even though nobody else on the team was (it was a day off) and Jaedong just looked at him and said: "You don't understand. I have to do this." Then there's Flash, who practiced so much that he got carpal tunnel in his wrists.
If "talent" was really the reason the very top pros did better than their teammates, why would there be so many stories about top pros practicing more than anyone else, even than their teammates? Why wouldn't they just coast on their talent, practicing a minimal amount, and just watch the money roll in forever?
I know one player who tried that. His name was FruitDealer.
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On November 21 2011 13:13 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:10 mordk wrote:On November 21 2011 13:08 DamageControL wrote:On November 21 2011 13:02 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 13:00 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:50 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:47 The KY wrote:On November 21 2011 12:43 jyLee wrote:On November 21 2011 12:38 Jiddra wrote:On November 21 2011 12:36 jyLee wrote:
[quote]
No immature for being mad at fans for booing. Fans can boo whoever the hell they please and who can blame them for booing Naniwa after his actions. Also maybe you should check your facts before claiming Naniwa had the best result a foreigner had. Pretty sure Huk WINNING mlg would be a better pick lol. And we can boo whatever crowd we want for booing. Silly how this arguemnt can go round and round... No you have no reason to be upset. Why are you so mad that people dont like Naniwa. Last time I checked he hasnt proven himself with a GSL championship or MLG championship and bms worse than Idra. When was the last time he bmed? He called MLG a joke tournament out of frustration, nothing that hasn't happened before, and his temper is one of his flaws. He claims he never meant to disrespect Nestea, and as far as I can see he didn't. So when has he bmed since the days of old Naniwa who'd cheese every game, which was ages ago? As for proving himself...god damn man are you just biased against the guy? Over the last 3 days he beat MVP, Nestea, Nestea again, Huk, and DRG. Yeah he has no resul-OH WAIT he just took 2nd in the most stacked MLG ever. It was only about an hour ago, maybe you can recall it. And he has won an MLG. Thats a lot of excuses. He hasnt won anything, only thing he's proven is that he's good. The MLG he won was with zero koreans attending so yeah it was pretty much a joke. I'm not biased, its clear you are a raging Naniwa fanboy though. Setting aside that he won the MLG Global Invitational two days ago, the only thing he's proven is he's good? What the FUCK else is there to prove? What the fuck are you even saying? You are biased. I am, indeed, a Naniwa fan, well spotted. A very good night to you. Why are you not banned yet? Its like you dont even bother reading. What he's done to distinguish himself from players like HuK or Idra is defeating the very best: MMA and Nestea. You can argue why those achievements are not meaningful, but he did it in an offline tournament. So yeah. HuK also won a tournament (MLG) and is also in contention, but he finished much lower in the tournament that you are degrading Nani for "only" placing second in. HuK is consistently on Code S though, I think nani had an awesome run, but I don't think he's solid enough to remain in Code S for long, particularly now that the format is even less forgiving. We'll have to see. Definitely true. It's just really weird to say that Nani is not worthy in any way of being in contention for best foreigner. For sure. he has a lot left to prove, though.
Nani has great builds, that's about it. Once the opponent find a hole he falls apart.
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On November 21 2011 13:19 bRiz wrote:
Koreans are incredibly nationalistic, just like everyone else in the world.
Hey, Australian's aren't "incredibly nationalistic"!
We're better than that! 
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On November 21 2011 13:11 Jemesatui wrote:
Koreans are and always will be better than foreigners in sc2 because of their culture.
The argument is a matter if potential, and the cultures capacity to exploit this to reach the best possible results.
America does not have this capacity, hence foreigners training in Korea.
Nothing to do with genes, IQ or any other dumb suggestions people keep throwing.
Koreans hold a sense of pride for being the e-sports nation, just like Americans like to think they are the 'land of opportunity' and the biggest super power.
The difference is, Korea is the e sports nation, and America will soon fall behind china in military and economic power...
Korea have embraced e sports, while America never will, as being rich, powerful and high on the social heirarchy has been Ingrained into their culture.
So what's the reason there are no good Australian players/events?
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On November 21 2011 13:20 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:19 bRiz wrote:
Koreans are incredibly nationalistic, just like everyone else in the world. Hey, Australian's aren't "incredibly nationalistic"! We're better than that!
we're nationalistic when it suits us
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EPT
