EPTPick Your Power Interesting! - Page 15
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On October 13 2011 00:59 Jackal58 wrote: That was me. I wasn't a traitor. I was vanilla townie. We were supposed to follow some daft pick order. I was #6. Somebody else took the power I was supposed to pick. You all lynched me to prove I wasn't lying. So I'm not playing that game again. Lists don't work. Picking in a particular order doesn't work. Assigning values to roles doesn't work. There are 3 different scum factions that are already working on choosing roles that will compliment each other. What makes you guys think there is any thing we can do to ensure roles are denied to the scum teams? Oh I know. Scum teams put out lists of roles and who should take them when. This is madness. Different game dude, talking about PYP2. You weren't in that game | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On October 13 2011 01:12 sandroba wrote: Jackal, my plan involves no lists or assignments, are you okay supporting it? Yours isn't a plan as much as it's common sense. On October 13 2011 01:12 chaoser wrote: Different game dude, talking about PYP2. You weren't in that game Sorry then. Sounds like the same type of scenario though. A list is put forth. Scum shit all over it. | ||
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
Thief should be forced to steal the most imba mafia role immediately, as this will both confirm that he is thief, that thief can't be used again, and whether or not the person who was supposed to pick the imba role actually picked it or not. That being said, I'm still mulling over the possible advantages of assigning the top 4-5 spots. I originally thought that it was a bad idea, because mafia will likely deny themselves powerful combinations, but it might be a good idea to try to assign a role that is really imba by itself. (The part that I'm still looking over is whether or not there is actually a role that powerful by itself that we need to assign it.) | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
On October 13 2011 01:21 Jackal58 wrote: Yours isn't a plan as much as it's common sense. Sorry then. Sounds like the same type of scenario though. A list is put forth. Scum shit all over it. Okay, so you will follow it then? You cannot pick kp roles (exception is jack/capitalist) on the first 20 picks and no claiming "I was denying shit" if you get found having a role you were not supposed to have. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
DO NOT DENY. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On October 13 2011 01:44 sandroba wrote: Okay, so you will follow it then? You cannot pick kp roles (exception is jack/capitalist) on the first 20 picks and no claiming "I was denying shit" if you get found having a role you were not supposed to have. I'm not agreeing to follow or not follow anything. Last PYP game I did and it just got me dead. The problem is even if everybody says they will half of them are lying. And that doesn't include scum. I will pick what I believe to still be available at the position I get placed in the draft. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
We need to get some things straight concerning assigning the top 5 picks. From the responses so far, it seems like very few people actually understand the purpose. The purpose is not to stop mafia from getting the roles(Inventor or Assassin), that is impossible. The purpose is not to be 100% sure that the top 5 picks are exactly what we want them to be, that is also impossible. The main purpose is to keep tabs on the Inventor and the Assassin(possibly the framer), and ensure that someone is held accountable for their actions. YES, a player can take a different role and allow Inventor/Assassin/Theif/etc. to drop to a scum-buddy, BUT THAT DOESNT MATTER! Because if the role is used improperly we lynch the player who was supposed to have it. Sure, that doesn't stop the role, but it at least allows us to lynch a scum out of the deal. The thing is that you HAVE to consider the alternative. If we have no assigned slots at all, what happens when the inventor/assassin starts shitting things up? What is our recourse? Fact is, we're forced to go on a merry chase amongst the top picks to find him, and are unable to use roleclaims to solve the problem(Assassin has infinite kills and can kill immediately). Here's the scenario, with two possible outcomes: The inventor starts making anti-town moves: Option 1: Since we have assigned the inventor to spot 1, we know exactly where to look for our lynch/Vig. We kill the player in slot 1, and either kill the offending inventor, or kill his mafia buddy who let inventor drop. Worse case scenario: 1 dead scum with a scum inventor on the loose. Option 2: We have not assigned the inventor to any particular slot. This means the Inventor is probably in the top 3 spots, but may have fallen much farther. We spend a night or two hoping we have a role cop/detective/Capitalist in our mix and that they figure out who the offending party is. Conversly we just start lynching and vigging straight into the top of the list. Worse case scenario: 0 dead scum, wasted role checks, wasted time in discussion, scum inventor on the loose. Someone please please tell me where I am going wrong!? There is simply no ADDED downside to allocating the top slots to dangerous roles. It is NOT meant to be a guarantee that we become impervious to these roles, but it gives accountability to the roles which can be game breaking. THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE! + Show Spoiler [Sandro's Plan] + On October 12 2011 23:44 sandroba wrote: Okay time for Sandroba's Plan (TM). I've thought long and hard about this game and the ultimate goal for town is to focus on surviving and let the bad guys hopefully and inevitably kill each other. This game will tend to balance itself since the currently winning team will always be focused by all others. Town has a HUGE advantage over all other teams by outnumbering and "outroling" them. Mafia info advantage is extremelly nerfed since they only know their own teamates. So how to exploit this? We focus on picking information/protection/survival roles. We are surely going to need a little bit of kp too, but that is secondary. By limiting where on the player pick order kp can be chosen we buff 4 (capitalist/rolecop/bulletbill/tracker) info roles, basically making them aligment checks or close to it. We can hold people that chose kp accountable by knowing where they are. We shall not try to deny any roles to mafia and let them fight for them and get insta-nailed when caught having one of those roles. My list would be the following, really simple (of course inventor is considered prot/info): Picks 1-20: Rng between info and protective. You can't pick anything else and if you are found having any other role you will get lynched. We win this game by sheer numbers and outsurving mafia. Mafia will have a hard time shooting in this list since anyone can be vet/bulletproof/rockstart/jack etc. That keeps our medics/dts alive and that's the ultimate goal. Picks 21-28: Your choice of kp/utility or prot/info if you are feeling lucky. Kp recomended since we might need to get rid of scum in a hurry. No role denial will take place. Mafia teams will fuck each other over without our help. If you are found havinga ny mafia oriented role in any position you WILL be mercelessly murdered (i.e. Voterigger/showtime/framer/extractor/janitor/etc). Capitalist/jack is a minor issue with this since he will show having a gun to bullet bill checks but I can live with that and I can leave with that and we can clear that shit up in thread/pms and luckly we won't even have to deal with it. For this to work I need full support on this from everyone and FoS on those pesky mafia always trying to ruin my imba plans. Of course I accept criticism/sugestions to improve this plan =) The good: * Focus on info+ defensive roles * Avoid KP roles among certain pick slots to strengthen our investigative roles(Capitalist, Bullet Bill, Role Cop) The Bad: *There is not really a plan here, more of just a general overview. However, it basically lines up well with my priority list of town roles in my large post. The Ugly: *Strange refusal to acknowledge the benefits to having assigned picks. Your argument as I can see it is this: On October 13 2011 00:12 sandroba wrote: Since we have assassin/bc I think it's a bad idea to assign any roles. Let mafia fight for them and deny each other. and that somehow not making a list allows mafia to 'fuck themselves over'. These are both incorrect. First, assassin is not a threat by defenition since we know where it is. Even if it 'slips' to a different slot, the assassin has no guarantees that the players actually followed the accountability list. Second, BC is not a threat, as a player actually has to roleclaim, they can't simply state several days earlier that they will follow a particular plan(not to mention BC is just a dumbed down Vig, it's not a threat anymore than any other KP role). Lastly, the idea that not making a list will cause mafia to 'fuck themselves over'. I strongly disagree with the logic behind this. There is just as high a chance for townies to get vanilla by trying for the inventor/assassin/JOAT as there is a mafia player. In fact, the argument could be made that by leaving everything in the air, We will end up with more vanilla townies who went for the powerful roles than mafia, since mafia can co-ordinate among 4 players. Also, by removing 5 or 6 high powered mafia roles from the mix, this actually causes MORE chance for mafia to get vanilla by overlapping with other mafia teams. We effectively reduce the pool of good mafia choices, meaning there are less high-quality roles for mafia to pick from, meaning we end up with more vanilla mafia. Honestly, we lose nothing from assigning the top 5 or 6 slots. All we gain is some accountability for certain roles. Some players are scared that by assigning these roles the players will become a target for mafia.... guess what, the top players already ARE a target for mafia. Not to mention that the top picks are more likely to be mafia players(since they can co-ordinate), which means the mafia will likely be shooting at other mafia if they try to snipe the top picks. Also, this means any mafia who land in the top slots are automatically exposed to the town influence, and are forced to play along or risk exposure. Arg. Someone please articulate a downside to this plan compared to the plan of assigning no slots at all. __________________ On October 13 2011 00:09 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Woot let's do this. Radfield, what do you think about having the top five picks publicly claim their roles? It does open them to the BC role but at the same time we have absolute acountability and we have clear medic options. It would be pretty simple to organize the medics (i.e. if you're pick 5-8 you protect pick one, 9-11 you protect pick two). I'm worried atm that we'll get strong roles only to have them immidiately killed off. Think about it, if all three mafia teams shoot into the top, we could have just lost our inventor, jack, and town alligned assassin. Getting the top picks is great but we need some way to protect them otherwise it's pretty useless. If they claim it gives us two things. One, a clear oppertunity to organize medics. Two, if the mafia gets in the top spot it forces them to take the role assigned to them by the picking plan or risk being Ace'd. Having people claim is a good way to prevent the mafia from letting a role slide to a scumbuddy. This way, even if the mafia gets inventor or something similary powerful, we'll be able to kill them off without a problem. Top 5 roles don't need to roleclaim, that would be redundant since they presumably already followed the picking plan. If we don't follow the picking plan, then we cannot roleclaim, since assassin will chew us up. We can protect players without them having to roleclaim, as we should have a decent amount of prot roles. I'm not actually sure i'm picking up your meaning though. How does roleclaiming stop mafia from letting a role slide to a scumbuddy... presumably they can just lie, no? On October 13 2011 00:18 chaoser wrote: This is made worse by the fact that there are different mafia factions in this game so things get even more confusing with them all going for the same roles and possibly same strats and soon you'll have to deal with the mess that happened in PYP2 where a traitor said someone picked his role in the top 5 and we ended up losing two days to that alone except this time it will probably be worse when we try to control the role list. Just because town made a mistake once does not mean we are doomed to repeat it. This is NOT an argument against assigning several picks, this is an argument against playing poorly. On October 13 2011 00:18 chaoser wrote: Sandroba hits the nail on the head. This game is about outlasting, not about trying to win the game as early as possible as town. The longer the game goes on, the more mafia will have to start worrying about each other and the more information and time town has to figure everything out. Let the mafia deal with fighting over roles, we should focus on getting as many protective roles as possible. Look at how LOTR played out: Two medics basically bought town enough time to lynch the last three mafia. I'd say protective roles are #1 picks and then investigative roles and then KP roles. Mafia will probably be going for as many KP as possible to try to overcome our defensive roles if we play like this so we can just lynch anyone suspicious that also has KP. This I completely agree with. Investigative + Protective, with a dash of KP mixed in. That is towns best set-up. However, we can have that and still assign some slots at the top to keep the most dangerous roles accountable. The two ideas work well together and are not mutually exclusive. [B]On October 13 2011 00:30 GreYMisT wrote: In PYP Insane the inventor died almost imediatly because he was forced to roleclaim, he was only ever able to get the police radio because of the copy cat role. I understand that the inventor is stupidly powerful, but won't everyone knowing who he is just cause him to have a giant target painted on his head? or is his only goal to get the 1 list check made before he dies? The one thing i disagree with in Radfield's plan is the no-pick list. This seems to be a great way to give scum a list of roles that won't be taken, leaving them open to being picked. On that same note it is important to establish a list of roles that townies would want to prioritize over others. As far as sandroba's plan goes, I like it. If town can get most of the protective roles than we can just survive the crossfire until mafia numbers become more adequate to deal with. Unfortunately, you're guilty of not reading my post properly. Never did I suggest a no-pick list, in fact I stated it was a poor idea. As far as the inventor, YES it makes him a giant target. So what? There is a decent chance he is mafia, but beyond that we will have plenty of protective roles. If the Inventor starts pumping out Police Radios, then obviously he will be protected. Besides, you need to balance this against the potential huge downside of having a mafia player grab the inventor and us not knowing where or who he is. This is the risk that comes with not assigning any picks. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
In order to kill someone as the Assassin you need their role, alignment, and in the case of mafia, family. How the hell does one determine a scum member's family? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 13 2011 01:27 JimboSilvers wrote: Just a note for IF we decide that assigning a few roles to the top is necessary: Thief should be forced to steal the most imba mafia role immediately, as this will both confirm that he is thief, that thief can't be used again, and whether or not the person who was supposed to pick the imba role actually picked it or not. That being said, I'm still mulling over the possible advantages of assigning the top 4-5 spots. I originally thought that it was a bad idea, because mafia will likely deny themselves powerful combinations, but it might be a good idea to try to assign a role that is really imba by itself. (The part that I'm still looking over is whether or not there is actually a role that powerful by itself that we need to assign it.) This is very very smart. I fully agree with having thief immediately swipe, as it confirms two dangerous roles at once. The two roles that are imba on their own merits are: Inventor, Assassin. Inventor can give his teammates anything, Assassin has infinite immediate hidden kills. Thief and Roleswapper are assigned only by virtue of keeping track on the first two. On October 13 2011 02:04 Jackal58 wrote: I'm not agreeing to follow or not follow anything. Last PYP game I did and it just got me dead. The problem is even if everybody says they will half of them are lying. And that doesn't include scum. I will pick what I believe to still be available at the position I get placed in the draft. Cool. We'll see you on Day 1, as I guess there is no need for you to participate in the next two days. Some of us are trying to use the in game mechanics to get town on the best possible footing, some players are not. Which one are you? On October 13 2011 01:48 sandroba wrote: NOT denying is the superior denying strategy this game. Mafia is not guaranteed to get what they want unless they get first pick AND the first picks already have a lot of focus on them. Letting mafia fight over the best roles for them will ensure we end up with several vanilla mafia. If we deny mafia the best roles they might pick roles town would want and they would be denying town instead. DO NOT DENY. This doesn't make any sense. We're discussing this tonight on skype as I assure you, this makes no sense. Assigning several dangerous picks to the top slots actually increases the likelihood of mafia overlapping on the other pro-mafia roles As an aside, Mafia will not draft town roles in an effort to deny town, as that puts them at a severe disadvantage to the other mafia teams. Mafia Team A takes powerful town roles Mafia Team B takes powerful mafia roles Guess which team is more likely to win? | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On October 13 2011 02:18 wherebugsgo wrote: Can someone explain to me how Assassin is a good role? In order to kill someone as the Assassin you need their role, alignment, and in the case of mafia, family. How the hell does one determine a scum member's family? If your scum buddies have DT roles it's a great role to have. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On October 13 2011 02:26 Radfield wrote: This is very very smart. I fully agree with having thief immediately swipe, as it confirms two dangerous roles at once. The two roles that are imba on their own merits are: Inventor, Assassin. Inventor can give his teammates anything, Assassin has infinite immediate hidden kills. Thief and Roleswapper are assigned only by virtue of keeping track on the first two. Cool. We'll see you on Day 1, as I guess there is no need for you to participate in the next two days. Some of us are trying to use the in game mechanics to get town on the best possible footing, some players are not. Which one are you? This doesn't make any sense. We're discussing this tonight on skype as I assure you, this makes no sense. Assigning several dangerous picks to the top slots actually increases the likelihood of mafia overlapping on the other pro-mafia roles As an aside, Mafia will not draft town roles in an effort to deny town, as that puts them at a severe disadvantage to the other mafia teams. Mafia Team A takes powerful town roles Mafia Team B takes powerful mafia roles Guess which team is more likely to win? I'm the realist that has watched scum and dumb townies shit up this same plan twice before. You immune to scummies and dummies? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 13 2011 02:18 wherebugsgo wrote: Can someone explain to me how Assassin is a good role? In order to kill someone as the Assassin you need their role, alignment, and in the case of mafia, family. How the hell does one determine a scum member's family? You only need to know the role OR the alignment. Therefore, if anyone claims their role, the assassin can immediately kill them. They can do this instantaneously, infinitely, and while remaining hidden. All roleclaims become death sentences. If combo-ed with extractor, role cop, NKVD, or capitalist, it becomes a sure kill for mafia. The fact that you need a scum member's family is precisely why this is a fantastic role for mafia, and only a mediocre role for town. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 13 2011 02:28 Jackal58 wrote: I'm the realist that has watched scum and dumb townies shit up this same plan twice before. You immune to scummies and dummies? The thing is Jackal, NOT having a plan doesn't put us on any better footing. We still have all the potential downside, but we lose all our potential upside. Scummies and dummies can still shit things up, only we just have plain LESS info. My challenge to you: Give me a scenario involving my pick-assignment plan that is worse than if we had done no pick assignment at all. I'm not saying there isn't one, but I can't see it right now. Prove me wrong. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
This I completely agree with. Investigative + Protective, with a dash of KP mixed in. That is towns best set-up. However, we can have that and still assign some slots at the top to keep the most dangerous roles accountable. The two ideas work well together and are not mutually exclusive. Oh ok, I get what you're saying now, yeah, this works out then. Assassin has infinite immediate hidden kills. Assassins can only kill once per cycle. Should you succeed in your hit, you are refunded your kill to use again in the following cycle or later and nobody is the wiser. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On October 12 2011 19:15 Radfield wrote: CPR Doctor: In a normal PYP set-up, this is an essential role to block, as it adds immensely to mafia kill power. However, in this set-up it is much less scary to town. First, there is a chance that any shot will kill mafia instead of town(~33%). Second, there is a chance that the CPR doc will actually SAVE someone. With likely 4 or 5 KP per night the CPR doc will get progressively more likely to start making saves. Combine that with the fact that separate mafia factions will be trying to kill the same strong townies, and the chance for a save climbs even higher. NOT WORTHY OF A PICK I'm not sure I understand this logic. You argue that a shot may kill mafia, instead of town, but how is that any different from any of the other kp roles? Just becaues the scum have the ability to shoot each other, doesn't mean we want to provide them the opportunity to double their kp. Sure, there is a chance that mafia shots overlap and result in a save, but what makes you think the scum team won't go for the power roles with their normal shot and the CPR shot into the lower ranks? I think the role is far too powerful to straight out tell people not to pick it. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
Scenario- number 5 on your list flips VT What course of action would town take? On October 13 2011 02:17 Radfield wrote: ?Option 2: We have not assigned the inventor to any particular slot. This means the Inventor is probably in the top 3 spots, but may have fallen much farther. We spend a night or two hoping we have a role cop/detective/Capitalist in our mix and that they figure out who the offending party is. Conversly we just start lynching and vigging straight into the top of the list. Worse case scenario: 0 dead scum, wasted role checks, wasted time in discussion, scum inventor on the loose. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On October 13 2011 02:33 Radfield wrote: The thing is Jackal, NOT having a plan doesn't put us on any better footing. We still have all the potential downside, but we lose all our potential upside. Scummies and dummies can still shit things up, only we just have plain LESS info. My challenge to you: Give me a scenario involving my pick-assignment plan that is worse than if we had done no pick assignment at all. I'm not saying there isn't one, but I can't see it right now. Prove me wrong. That's my point. There is no plan that is going to work. There are 5 or 6 people discussing the merits of various plans. There are another 20 or so people that are going to do whatever they want to. Some scum. Some town. My challenge to you - Get everybody to sign on to your plan. Or any plan. And then remain calm as the game progresses and you realize 80% of the people that said "great idea let's do it" didn't. I'm not saying your plan is bad. I'm not saying anybodies plan is bad. I'm saying it's not going to work because most people aren't going to follow it. It creates a scenario of false expectations that gets townies lynched. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 13 2011 02:35 chaoser wrote: Oh ok, I get what you're saying now, yeah, this works out then. Assassins can only kill once per cycle. You're completely right. In fact, that should have been obvious. My bad. The worst the assassin can do is double his team KP. Bad, but not horrendous. Likely still worthy of a pick if we do try to use the top slots for accountability roles. On October 13 2011 02:36 kitaman27 wrote: I'm not sure I understand this logic. You argue that a shot may kill mafia, instead of town, but how is that any different from any of the other kp roles? Just becaues the scum have the ability to shoot each other, doesn't mean we want to provide them the opportunity to double their kp. Sure, there is a chance that mafia shots overlap and result in a save, but what makes you think the scum team won't go for the power roles with their normal shot and the CPR shot into the lower ranks? I think the role is far too powerful to straight out tell people not to pick it. First off, by 'not worthy of a pick' I meant that we don't need to assign a slot to keep the role accountable. Not that no townie should ever pick it. Lets assume you knew this though. I'm simply laying out the reasons that this role is not nearly as frightening as in other PYP incarnations. In a normal game scum can double the amount of townies that die by having the CPR Doc. In this set-up, that is simply not the case. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
If we focus follow my plan and let scum fight over good mafia roles we insure maximum number of prot/info by town and maximum number of vanilla scum and just outlast the mafia. It also buffs the info roles since no players on the top 20 picks are supposed to have kp. | ||
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