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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 13 2011 03:07 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 02:33 Radfield wrote:On October 13 2011 02:28 Jackal58 wrote:On October 13 2011 02:26 Radfield wrote:On October 13 2011 01:27 JimboSilvers wrote:
Just a note for IF we decide that assigning a few roles to the top is necessary:
Thief should be forced to steal the most imba mafia role immediately, as this will both confirm that he is thief, that thief can't be used again, and whether or not the person who was supposed to pick the imba role actually picked it or not.
That being said, I'm still mulling over the possible advantages of assigning the top 4-5 spots. I originally thought that it was a bad idea, because mafia will likely deny themselves powerful combinations, but it might be a good idea to try to assign a role that is really imba by itself. (The part that I'm still looking over is whether or not there is actually a role that powerful by itself that we need to assign it.) This is very very smart. I fully agree with having thief immediately swipe, as it confirms two dangerous roles at once. The two roles that are imba on their own merits are: Inventor, Assassin. Inventor can give his teammates anything, Assassin has infinite immediate hidden kills. Thief and Roleswapper are assigned only by virtue of keeping track on the first two. On October 13 2011 02:04 Jackal58 wrote:
I'm not agreeing to follow or not follow anything. Last PYP game I did and it just got me dead.
The problem is even if everybody says they will half of them are lying. And that doesn't include scum. I will pick what I believe to still be available at the position I get placed in the draft.
Cool. We'll see you on Day 1, as I guess there is no need for you to participate in the next two days. Some of us are trying to use the in game mechanics to get town on the best possible footing, some players are not. Which one are you? On October 13 2011 01:48 sandroba wrote:
NOT denying is the superior denying strategy this game. Mafia is not guaranteed to get what they want unless they get first pick AND the first picks already have a lot of focus on them. Letting mafia fight over the best roles for them will ensure we end up with several vanilla mafia. If we deny mafia the best roles they might pick roles town would want and they would be denying town instead.
DO NOT DENY. This doesn't make any sense. We're discussing this tonight on skype as I assure you, this makes no sense. Assigning several dangerous picks to the top slots actually increases the likelihood of mafia overlapping on the other pro-mafia roles As an aside, Mafia will not draft town roles in an effort to deny town, as that puts them at a severe disadvantage to the other mafia teams. Mafia Team A takes powerful town roles
Mafia Team B takes powerful mafia rolesGuess which team is more likely to win? I'm the realist that has watched scum and dumb townies shit up this same plan twice before. You immune to scummies and dummies? The thing is Jackal, NOT having a plan doesn't put us on any better footing. We still have all the potential downside, but we lose all our potential upside. Scummies and dummies can still shit things up, only we just have plain LESS info. My challenge to you: Give me a scenario involving my pick-assignment plan that is worse than if we had done no pick assignment at all. I'm not saying there isn't one, but I can't see it right now. Prove me wrong. That's my point. There is no plan that is going to work. There are 5 or 6 people discussing the merits of various plans. There are another 20 or so people that are going to do whatever they want to. Some scum. Some town. My challenge to you - Get everybody to sign on to your plan. Or any plan. And then remain calm as the game progresses and you realize 80% of the people that said "great idea let's do it" didn't. I'm not saying your plan is bad. I'm not saying anybodies plan is bad. I'm saying it's not going to work because most people aren't going to follow it. It creates a scenario of false expectations that gets townies lynched.
My plan does not rely on needed all 28 players to follow it. My plan only needs the top 5. If you read my plan you would see that the rest of the picks are up to the discretion of the players, with emphasis on investigative roles, and using the priority list I made.
So then the question becomes, can we hold the top 5 players accountable for their picks? The answer is Yes, we certainly can.
Radfield:
Scenario- number 5 on your list flips VT
What course of action would town take?
This means that a player tried to take JOAT at 5, but it was already taken. We should not have had to wait for his flip, as he should have immediately blew the whistle that his role was swiped by a player above him. Really it would be a null tell though, as JOAT is a pro-town choice(and coveted), and someone may have wanted it for themselves. Cops would look into the top 4 slots, and the discovered JOAT would be placed under more scrutiny. If the role that was not taken(assassin or Inventor or whatever) starts being used for evil, then we can lynch the JOAT given the likelihood that he is scum and let the role slip down. Or not, either way we have important information.
Assuming we had no assignment list though, this is a non-starter. So what if the player at 5 flips VT, it just means he doubled up with someone else. We learn nothing in this situation.
Honestly, I would say neither option has a distinct option in this scenario. Certainly does not fit the bill of a situation where no role allocation is better than a bit of role allocation.
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So what happens if we assign, say, thief to #1 and he ends up being mafia, picks Hero/veteran instead and lets his buddy near the bottom get thief who then steals inventor or some other role? The #1 player can claim RB for instance, so we will have to waste a check on him anyway and even then there's the issue of actually lynching him. I suppose we can still deal with it if town has KP, but they could also have a medic role. The point being, the setup is quite complex and I'm not completely convinced the perceived "accountability" is worth the trade of having mafia know where the roles are.
There's even no guarantee that town will get the role cop roles.
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Oh and then there is this
GF: "You have the ability to cover a player, changing their role and alignment to anything you want."
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Rad, Assassin is not as powerful as you seem to think it is. The only thing that is better about it then a normal day-vig is that it's anonymous, and can shoot during the night. The thing that is worse, is that if you are ever wrong about your guess, you become essentially vanilla, and you are outed to the rest of the thread. Because you have to specify the family of the mafia, that makes this extremely hard to use unless you have an extractor on your team. (And imo, just getting a vig would be better than using half your family's picks on 1KP.) It's an OK role, but nothing game breaking.
The downside to assigning the top spots is that everyone then knows where those roles are. Particularly mafia. There will always be two parties with KP that know they didn't get role X in the top 6, and that it's a powerful role. It's going to turn it into a killing ground that will end with everyone dead. By not assigning roles there you leave open the possibility that people will pick BP, or Vet, and suddenly it's a less attractive place to park your bullet.
Assassin shouldn't be on that list because as you your self said, it's able to work while remaining hidden. If you can't tell if the assassin is being used, or is responsible for a certain kill, how are you going to enforce accountability with that role?
Think of it this way: In a game with more than two parties, you HAVE to try to do good things for you, not bad things to them, because any action you take to benefit yourself will be three times as beneficial as any action you take to harm them, because you must harm THREE other parties.
This is an oversimplification, but to make myself clear, if you have four teams and each start with 0 points, when you give yourself 1 point, you are 1 point ahead of everyone. If you take a point away from another team, you are one point ahead of ONE person. You'd have to take away one point from each team to get the same net gain.
I believe that that principal will still apply to this situation despite the fact that it's more complicated.
I'm not dead set in this thinking, but currently it is what makes the most sense to me.
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Radfield the main problem I see with your plan is that we have given scum the perfect place to shoot for the first 2 nights.
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Canada4998 Posts
@Radfield Maybe in a normal game assigning roles would be superior. But not in this game. This game we have 3 mafia teams competing for good roles and denying each other. Mafia cannot safely get the combo they want. Having townies waste good pick spots for those roles and allowing mafia to take w/e they want at those spots is not optimal. If town has most of the good prot/info roles and mafia competes for mafia roles we will have the highest chance of winning possible. It doesn't matter if someone on a mafia team picks assassin when 2 others got vanilla trying. If we get a townie inventor we don't want him to be shot right away. We want all good spots to be either info or protective to waste mafia kp and make them afraid of shooting them. Hell picking assassin at a top spot is risky as fuck for mafia since they are good targets for DTs and picking at a low spot might get you vanilla. I don't think assigning roles is good at all.
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Canada4998 Posts
Also why would you assign joat. That makes no sense at all.
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United States4714 Posts
JOAT at the very least I think should definitely not be assigned Rad. Mafia can very easily drop JOAT to a lower teammate and take another very powerful role. And there will be no way to tell unless a role cop checks him, since his powers are all standard ones many roles could have.
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On October 13 2011 03:44 GreYMisT wrote:
Radfield the main problem I see with your plan is that we have given scum the perfect place to shoot for the first 2 nights.
Mafia would shoot into the top of the list anyway?
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Canada4998 Posts
On October 13 2011 03:35 JimboSilvers wrote:
Rad, Assassin is not as powerful as you seem to think it is. The only thing that is better about it then a normal day-vig is that it's anonymous, and can shoot during the night. The thing that is worse, is that if you are ever wrong about your guess, you become essentially vanilla, and you are outed to the rest of the thread. Because you have to specify the family of the mafia, that makes this extremely hard to use unless you have an extractor on your team. (And imo, just getting a vig would be better than using half your family's picks on 1KP.) It's an OK role, but nothing game breaking.
The downside to assigning the top spots is that everyone then knows where those roles are. Particularly mafia. There will always be two parties with KP that know they didn't get role X in the top 6, and that it's a powerful role. It's going to turn it into a killing ground that will end with everyone dead. By not assigning roles there you leave open the possibility that people will pick BP, or Vet, and suddenly it's a less attractive place to park your bullet.
Assassin shouldn't be on that list because as you your self said, it's able to work while remaining hidden. If you can't tell if the assassin is being used, or is responsible for a certain kill, how are you going to enforce accountability with that role?
Think of it this way: In a game with more than two parties, you HAVE to try to do good things for you, not bad things to them, because any action you take to benefit yourself will be three times as beneficial as any action you take to harm them, because you must harm THREE other parties.
This is an oversimplification, but to make myself clear, if you have four teams and each start with 0 points, when you give yourself 1 point, you are 1 point ahead of everyone. If you take a point away from another team, you are one point ahead of ONE person. You'd have to take away one point from each team to get the same net gain.
I believe that that principal will still apply to this situation despite the fact that it's more complicated.
I'm not dead set in this thinking, but currently it is what makes the most sense to me.
That's exactly how I feel thank you for making things clear while I fail.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On October 12 2011 19:15 Radfield wrote:
First off, by 'not worthy of a pick' I meant that we don't need to assign a slot to keep the role accountable. Not that no townie should ever pick it. Lets assume you knew this though.
Well by not including it in your tier list or "top 28 town roles" list, you're essentially suggesting that it doesn't have much value. I'm saying I still think its one of the most powerful roles and if we're going to have a town priority list, it needs to be present.
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On October 13 2011 03:46 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 03:44 GreYMisT wrote:
Radfield the main problem I see with your plan is that we have given scum the perfect place to shoot for the first 2 nights.
Mafia would shoot into the top of the list anyway?
Fair enough, but I'm uncomfortable with letting them know they have a 1/5 of hitting inventor by doing so. I perfer a plan where we pick following general guidelines. As someone said this gives mafia less of an opportunity to screw up everything, and already sets us up with good roles.
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On October 13 2011 03:50 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 03:46 chaoser wrote:On October 13 2011 03:44 GreYMisT wrote:
Radfield the main problem I see with your plan is that we have given scum the perfect place to shoot for the first 2 nights.
Mafia would shoot into the top of the list anyway? Fair enough, but I'm uncomfortable with letting them know they have a 1/5 of hitting inventor by doing so. I perfer a plan where we pick following general guidelines. As someone said this gives mafia less of an opportunity to screw up everything, and already sets us up with good roles.
Mafia might know where inventor is but so would medics?
@sandroba, I understand the hole let mafia fight over roles thing but the fact of the matter is, even if they fight over it, SOMEONE is going to get the inventor. SOMEONE is going to get the assassin. I'd rather know where they are and who has it than not know where it is and not know who has it. Town doesn't necessarily have to get those roles. As long as we know who has it and where it is, we have total control over the role. Ver (I think) talked about this in previous PYP games where he said CPR doc/CV is a horrible pick for mafia since you'll probably be controlled by town as long as they know where you are and who has it. So lets get some accountability up in this mother.
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But we won't know where the roles since obviously mafia will just let their team mate pick the role and then just claim RB or get around the issue by some other means. We won't even know if assassin is killing as he can do night kill as well
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EBWOP: where the roles are
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On October 13 2011 03:21 Radfield wrote:
This means that a player tried to take JOAT at 5, but it was already taken. We should not have had to wait for his flip, as he should have immediately blew the whistle that his role was swiped by a player above him. Really it would be a null tell though, as JOAT is a pro-town choice(and coveted), and someone may have wanted it for themselves. Cops would look into the top 4 slots, and the discovered JOAT would be placed under more scrutiny. If the role that was not taken(assassin or Inventor or whatever) starts being used for evil, then we can lynch the JOAT given the likelihood that he is scum and let the role slip down. Or not, either way we have important information.
Assuming we had no assignment list though, this is a non-starter. So what if the player at 5 flips VT, it just means he doubled up with someone else. We learn nothing in this situation.
Honestly, I would say neither option has a distinct option in this scenario. Certainly does not fit the bill of a situation where no role allocation is better than a bit of role allocation.
That scenario is what got me lynched day 1 as a townie in PYP 1. I followed the plan. My supposed choice was already taken. I blew the whistle and got lynched. The 4 above me were never looked at again. Town lost. So forgive me if I have no faith in your plan.
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Canada4998 Posts
On October 13 2011 03:56 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 03:50 GreYMisT wrote:On October 13 2011 03:46 chaoser wrote:On October 13 2011 03:44 GreYMisT wrote:
Radfield the main problem I see with your plan is that we have given scum the perfect place to shoot for the first 2 nights.
Mafia would shoot into the top of the list anyway? Fair enough, but I'm uncomfortable with letting them know they have a 1/5 of hitting inventor by doing so. I perfer a plan where we pick following general guidelines. As someone said this gives mafia less of an opportunity to screw up everything, and already sets us up with good roles. Mafia might know where inventor is but so would medics? @sandroba, I understand the hole let mafia fight over roles thing but the fact of the matter is, even if they fight over it, SOMEONE is going to get the inventor. SOMEONE is going to get the assassin. I'd rather know where they are and who has it than not know where it is and not know who has it. Town doesn't necessarily have to get those roles. As long as we know who has it and where it is, we have total control over the role. Ver (I think) talked about this in previous PYP games where he said CPR doc/CV is a horrible pick for mafia since you'll probably be controlled by town as long as they know where you are and who has it. So lets get some accountability up in this mother.
We will have no control no matter what. Mafia gets assigned assassin, they take w/e the fuck they want in their top pick and leave the last guy on the team to pick assassin. Until we lynch/kill the top pick guy assassin lays low and when he finally dies we still have THE SAME PROBLEM which is the hidden assassin. Acomplishes nothing.
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I support only 3 roles being the top 3 mandatory picks: inventor, thief, role swap. I think it's crucial we have some accountability. With only 3 roles there is also a much lower chance of getting your role stolen if we are just looking at the top 3. The town can control their actions and it forces them to use their powers for town-oriented goals.
Although Radfield, how do you envision the relationship between inventor, thief, and role swapper working? Should they confirm each? Leave each other alone?
One other thing I want to mention. Rockstar is guarded by vanilla townies OR mafia. Don't go confirming yourself to your bodyguards.
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As someone (kita I think) so eloquently pointed out, we can assign all we want, but it's not going to help us keep them accountable.
Look at it from their point of view:
If you get assigned inventor, pick Hero or BP, let a teammate pick inventor. If we find out, we vig/lynch the top player. Sure it's a red, but it doesn't help the fact that we still don't know where the inventor is.
Make sense?
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And as Radfield put it, the alternative is not knowing who the inventor is AND not getting a red kill.
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EPT
