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On October 13 2011 06:36 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 06:08 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Or we could choose to elect the inventor, thus making him immune to attack? I like this idea, a lot tbh. This brings up the subject of elections. Do we try and elect from people within the top spots to try and give them a little extra protection? Personally I see this as a great way to reduce the strain on our medics and give roles such as the inventor a longer lifespan. If the inventor turns out to be mafia then we'd known pretty quickly because he wouldn't be inventing stuff that helps the town. In that case he's outed himself and we lynch a scum. The only real damage a mafia mayor can do is with his lynch and even then, if he lynches someone who's been helping the town then we can just lynch him the next day. I see no real downside to making the inventor mayor. The upsides of having a near invincible townie far outweigh the downsides of having to burn a lynch on the mayor. Think about it, the mayor's lynch is going to be closely scrutinized and every invention is going to be scrutinized as well. If the mayor/inventor is scum then they HAVE to do what the town wants in order to stay alive. And even if they're scum and they do whatever we want but get caught by a DT, it's not like the mayor is unlynchable :D
If we were doing this then if mafia gets spot 1 they'd just get hero instead of inventor and passes it off to someone else. Now you've got a dude who's unkillable and unlynchable for two days and a mafia team with an inventor tucked away somewhere. Bad idea.
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On October 13 2011 04:18 heist wrote:
I support only 3 roles being the top 3 mandatory picks: inventor, thief, role swap. I think it's crucial we have some accountability. With only 3 roles there is also a much lower chance of getting your role stolen if we are just looking at the top 3. The town can control their actions and it forces them to use their powers for town-oriented goals.
Although Radfield, how do you envision the relationship between inventor, thief, and role swapper working? Should they confirm each? Leave each other alone?
One other thing I want to mention. Rockstar is guarded by vanilla townies OR mafia. Don't go confirming yourself to your bodyguards.
i like this these are the most beneficial roles for town and if we can't have them then a red lynch would be nice in compensation having top5 pick leaves too much room for shenanigans also i don't hope that there will be a ton of people with a suppressed batman inside who will get into top3/5 and then pick another role because they "always wanted to be like qatol" or something like that
also i'm picking [1][1] so no one else pick that please, i'll invent you many good inventions promiss
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On October 13 2011 06:41 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 06:36 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On October 13 2011 06:08 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Or we could choose to elect the inventor, thus making him immune to attack? I like this idea, a lot tbh. This brings up the subject of elections. Do we try and elect from people within the top spots to try and give them a little extra protection? Personally I see this as a great way to reduce the strain on our medics and give roles such as the inventor a longer lifespan. If the inventor turns out to be mafia then we'd known pretty quickly because he wouldn't be inventing stuff that helps the town. In that case he's outed himself and we lynch a scum. The only real damage a mafia mayor can do is with his lynch and even then, if he lynches someone who's been helping the town then we can just lynch him the next day. I see no real downside to making the inventor mayor. The upsides of having a near invincible townie far outweigh the downsides of having to burn a lynch on the mayor. Think about it, the mayor's lynch is going to be closely scrutinized and every invention is going to be scrutinized as well. If the mayor/inventor is scum then they HAVE to do what the town wants in order to stay alive. And even if they're scum and they do whatever we want but get caught by a DT, it's not like the mayor is unlynchable :D If we were doing this then if mafia gets spot 1 they'd just get hero instead of inventor and passes it off to someone else. Now you've got a dude who's unkillable and unlynchable for two days and a mafia team with an inventor tucked away somewhere. Bad idea.
I keep assuming that people take the role they're assigned -_-
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Is there a way to punish scum for passing a role down the line?
Should we have picks 6 and 7 safety pick inventor and thief or some combination of the top five roles? That does create two potentially vanilla players but it puts a double safety on scum passing a role down. Even if a scum gets inventor, we can at least be more sure where to look if the people who safety picked turned up vanilla.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2011 05:15 Radfield wrote:Finally getting some good arguments, and finally getting some good support. This is good stuff. Jimbo, I hear what you're saying, and agree with much of it. I also understand your point analogy very well. However in this case I'm imagining that the accountability picks are effective against all three mafia teams, hence giving us a leg up on all of them. Not only vs 1 particular team(in fact I'm not even sure how that would work at this stage) I also agree that it is likely the top picks will be fiercely targeted by the mafia. However, I'm ok with that as if the thief, Roleswapper and assassin all die that is ok with me. Inventor we want to protect, and we can heap our protection upon him. Also, and I want to stress this, mafia are more likely to have those dangerous top spots. Although there are more townies numerically, each mafia team gets to co-ordinate their picks, meaning they are far less likely to collide. This means that the potential killing ground of picks 1-5 is not so bad for town after all. And since mafia are getting those top picks anyways, we might as well assign them to them, no? Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 03:23 syllogism wrote:
So what happens if we assign, say, thief to #1 and he ends up being mafia, picks Hero/veteran instead and lets his buddy near the bottom get thief who then steals inventor or some other role? The #1 player can claim RB for instance, so we will have to waste a check on him anyway and even then there's the issue of actually lynching him. I suppose we can still deal with it if town has KP, but they could also have a medic role. The point being, the setup is quite complex and I'm not completely convinced the perceived "accountability" is worth the trade of having mafia know where the roles are.
There's even no guarantee that town will get the role cop roles. This is an excellent point. In fact, I think the main problem people have with the accountability picks is the threat of mafia letting the picks slip down to a scumbuddy. So, what if we added in a player who takes one of the top picks randomly, just to see if there is slippage going on: #1 Inventor #2 Assassin #3 Thief #4 Role Swapper #5 25% chance of either Inventor, Assassin, Thief or Swapper or #1 Inventor #2 Thief #3 Role Swapper #4 33% chance of either Inventor, Thief or Swapper Something like this. That makes it much more risky to try and let a role slip down to a scum buddy. Honestly, I'm not necessarily sold that we NEED to have accountability picks, but I do think they have potential to be advantageous to town. Keep in mind, the only real goal is to NOT let the inventor fall into the hands of an anonymous mafia player. I think this is a good goal, and one worthy of discussion.
I like this better. I think that it could be improved a little, by making it only four or three picks: Inventor, 2-1 mafia roles, and a random role person. If we include the Role swapper, obviously he should switch the thief and inventor, then have the thief steal the inventor's role, as that will nullify those abilities immediately.
My list of 4 would be
1) Inventor
2) Framer (This is incredibly powerful, as it give the power not only to frame, but redirect actions)
3) Thief/role-swapper
4) 33% chance of the above
+ Show Spoiler +Since these roles all effect eachother, each person would be able to tell if the other person didn't do what they said they would. (i.e, if the role swapper says he swapped roles, the other two will know for certain, etc.) This means that the only way that they could NOT do what we tell them to would be if they all coordinated, and that's never going to happen. + Show Spoiler +If it did, that would mean that an entire team is in the top four, and they are screwed anyways, so even if it did...
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On October 13 2011 07:00 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Is there a way to punish scum for passing a role down the line?
Should we have picks 6 and 7 safety pick inventor and thief or some combination of the top five roles? That does create two potentially vanilla players but it puts a double safety on scum passing a role down. Even if a scum gets inventor, we can at least be more sure where to look if the people who safety picked turned up vanilla.
I like the rng pick one of the top three roles. I don't think mafia are willing to take those odds.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hmm, I'm really not sure at this point if it makes sense to allocate the top picks or not. My thought is in a perfect world(where everyone follows the plan) it will likely work out great.
However, worse case scenario is that some of the top picks vocally follow the plan, and some vocally do not. This gives us half a plan, which is actually pretty bad for us. The more slots we allocate, the higher the chance of this happening.
With this in mind, we should probably only allocate 3 slots, Inventor, Thief and Swapper. However, this leaves the assassin free to kill the inventor day 1, which is a problem. Hence the addition of the assassin into the mix.
I'm honestly not sure what the best play is. Every pyp game I have played so far the inventor has ended up known, and in town hands. But with 12 mafia players, the chances of them getting the #1 slot are quite high.
What about this:
#1 Inventor
#2 Assassin
#3 Thief
#4 Swapper
#5/6/7/8 all take whatever, but also randomize in a % chance to take one of the top roles. This means Mafia cannot take for granted the ability to let a role slip, and take a risk of losing an excellent role by getting greedy.
Jimbo's thief/swapper ideas can be put to use as well to help speedily confirm the top picks.
I'd like to talk this out with people tonight. If anyone is interested and is around in about an hour or so, lets chat on IRC/Skype/whatever and hash this out. I particularly want to discuss with people who disagree with the allocation, as hopefully we can find solutions.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Jimbo, I don't think the role swapper works like that:
You have the ability to swap roles with any target. This effectively gives you all your target’s powers, while giving them the role swapping power. (They are free to use it the next night.) The role swap occurs after all night actions are resolved, and you inherit their role with the amount of uses they have left.
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On October 13 2011 06:52 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I keep assuming that people take the role they're assigned -_-
And sense we cant do that, lets look at what is most important:
In this set up, It is better to stay alive then to kill. Alot of people have the misconception (or are trying to persuade) that Mafia would want to focus on killing other mafia. This is wrong. A more realistic set of priority's is 1. stay alive and 2. take down threats, whether that be mafia or otherwise. There not gonna give a shit about other teams until the end game.
The largest advantage as town we have is are numbers. We can compound this advantage by focusing on protective roles. This should be are primary focus imo.
We out last them, while at the same time denying them protection.
This also senrgizes well with KP, because KP aimed at town has a greater chance of failing while KP landing on Mafia has a higher chance of success.
I would like to introduce a plan where if you are town and you are NOT one of the first 4 people to pick, to focus on Protective roles in a tiered format. If you are in the first 4, Pick Inventor or Framer. If you are near the bottom, chose a KP role, or a DT role.
Thoughts?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I agree on Framer. It is a high priority pick for mafia, and has the potential to do a lot of harm.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
For those you might have missed it, the quakenet channel we are using is #pypi
The more the merrier 
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 13 2011 07:16 hiro protagonist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 06:52 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I keep assuming that people take the role they're assigned -_-
And sense we cant do that, lets look at what is most important: In this set up, It is better to stay alive then to kill. Alot of people have the misconception (or are trying to persuade) that Mafia would want to focus on killing other mafia. This is wrong. A more realistic set of priority's is 1. stay alive and 2. take down threats, whether that be mafia or otherwise. There not gonna give a shit about other teams until the end game. The largest advantage as town we have is are numbers. We can compound this advantage by focusing on protective roles. This should be are primary focus imo.We out last them, while at the same time denying them protection. This also senrgizes well with KP, because KP aimed at town has a greater chance of failing while KP landing on Mafia has a higher chance of success. I would like to introduce a plan where if you are town and you are NOT one of the first 4 people to pick, to focus on Protective roles in a tiered format. If you are in the first 4, Pick Inventor or Framer. If you are near the bottom, chose a KP role, or a DT role. Thoughts?
Mafia motives will be like so:
During the day, lynch scum for maximum town cred
During the night, snipe town investigative roles
We can talk about town priority lists tomorrow though. It would be nice to hash the rest out before the pick order is revealed.
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Once again, in case this was missed, there is a group irc channel that we are using. Please join if you can, it is helpful for the town in many ways.
#pypi
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I'm trying to think what numbers are best for me to get the lowest slot, but one isn't jumping out right away. If someone wants to be last with me, post your numbers so I can copy you.
Radfield or jimbo for mayor I am assuming.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
We really should finalize a plan (or lack of plan) that everyone is willing to agree to before the draft order is released tonight. Any planning after that is subject to a great amount of manipulation.
Does everyone seem to agree with assigning the top three roles, while giving freedom to the lower ranks to focus on protective/investigative roles?
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meh i dont think we need a strict picking order. I probably won't follow a strict picking order if we get top 5 we'll just pick the role we think is best.
On October 12 2011 14:57 hiro protagonist wrote:
With this kind of set up, The ideal play for a mafia team would be to play one faction against another, and as someone else pointed out, to be the last one standing. In my mind the dream pick of roles for a mafia team would be a mix of protective roles and KP roles. This way, they can survive a few hits, while being able to take down threats that are targeting them, all the while letting other power roles run a muck on everyone else.
lucky for us, those would be great roles for town as well, so I would say the protective and KP roles should be top priority.
I dont see DT roles being good at all for Mafia, but still OK for town. I could see the traditional Mafia roles being good for ether side.
this post screams scum to me.
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On October 13 2011 07:52 JACCUZISPLAT wrote:meh i dont think we need a strict picking order. I probably won't follow a strict picking order if we get top 5 we'll just pick the role we think is best. Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 14:57 hiro protagonist wrote:
With this kind of set up, The ideal play for a mafia team would be to play one faction against another, and as someone else pointed out, to be the last one standing. In my mind the dream pick of roles for a mafia team would be a mix of protective roles and KP roles. This way, they can survive a few hits, while being able to take down threats that are targeting them, all the while letting other power roles run a muck on everyone else.
lucky for us, those would be great roles for town as well, so I would say the protective and KP roles should be top priority.
I dont see DT roles being good at all for Mafia, but still OK for town. I could see the traditional Mafia roles being good for ether side. this post screams scum to me.
how so?
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On October 13 2011 07:13 Radfield wrote:
Hmm, I'm really not sure at this point if it makes sense to allocate the top picks or not. My thought is in a perfect world(where everyone follows the plan) it will likely work out great.
However, worse case scenario is that some of the top picks vocally follow the plan, and some vocally do not. This gives us half a plan, which is actually pretty bad for us. The more slots we allocate, the higher the chance of this happening.
With this in mind, we should probably only allocate 3 slots, Inventor, Thief and Swapper. However, this leaves the assassin free to kill the inventor day 1, which is a problem. Hence the addition of the assassin into the mix.
I'm honestly not sure what the best play is. Every pyp game I have played so far the inventor has ended up known, and in town hands. But with 12 mafia players, the chances of them getting the #1 slot are quite high.
What about this:
#1 Inventor
#2 Assassin
#3 Thief
#4 Swapper
#5/6/7/8 all take whatever, but also randomize in a % chance to take one of the top roles. This means Mafia cannot take for granted the ability to let a role slip, and take a risk of losing an excellent role by getting greedy.
Jimbo's thief/swapper ideas can be put to use as well to help speedily confirm the top picks.
I'd like to talk this out with people tonight. If anyone is interested and is around in about an hour or so, lets chat on IRC/Skype/whatever and hash this out. I particularly want to discuss with people who disagree with the allocation, as hopefully we can find solutions.
If we use this method, this is the way to do it. I actually thought this up as I was driving home from college, and came up with no senarios where having someone do this check would be bad for the town. I guess you could argue that this person ends up vanilla, but that is bound to happen to a few people, and in my opinion is a very worth it trade to making sure no scum nonsense is going on.
Thanks for clearing up this plan radfield/chaoser. I would feel more comfortable doing a 5 role version of this plan, with inventor, assassin, role swapper and thief, with another person checking for the above. the rest of us should follow the guidlines that sandraoba set, with mostly choosing protective/investigative roles.
Question: should we consider America as one of the roles we need to keep track off? i didnt list it in my top 5 because he has to out himself to shoot, but being able to direct his shot could be benifitical.
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Ok, so here's my thoughts currently:
This is the list that Rad preseted:
Inventor
Assassin
Thief
Swapper
--------------------------
At first look, those don't seem like good roles. The reason why assassin is on there is because he could kill off the top players anonymously, because we assigned them specific roles. The reason the thief is on there is because he could steal top players roles, because we assigned specific roles. The reason the swapper is on there is because he could swap top players, and we can't have that because it ruins our accountability.
The only role on there, that is on there for the sake of the town, is the inventor. The others are on there for the sake of the Plan. If nobody is assigned roles, assassin is really hard to use. If nobody is assigned roles, Thief will only be useful once someone claims. Swapper is only useful once they figure out who's who.
The roles that we are trying to keep accountable are not that powerful if there is no role assigning. Not the way I see it anyways.
In other words, I don't think that reserving the top spots is worth it. The advantage of not assigning is that the top picks are free to pick self-prot roles, OR op town roles. Mafia won't know where they are, and will have to risk running into a Vet or maybe even a Methman or PGO type role. behind this shield of doubt/mystery, op town roles will be safer. (Not safe, Safer.)
Make sense?
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EPT
