EPT[D] Practice Myths and Methods - Page 5
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FoeHamr
United States489 Posts
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StreetWise
United States594 Posts
If people could "just play" piano, you'd probably see the same thing occur, why practice specific parts over and over and over if you can just learn gradually while having fun most of the time? Of course, people can't just "play piano", put me in front of a piano and I'd probably make noise that sounds like a dying cow trying to faceroll a piano. But you can "just play" starcraft to a certain degree. And while pros/dedicated/motivated people wll of course always practice methodically, I think for the most part they just want to play more games If stacraft made sounds in accordance to the proficiency to which the game is played, I am sure your starcraft play would 'sound' like a dying cow right now as would most non professional gamers. In fact I would be willing to bet that there has not even been a masterpiece yet, not even at the professional level, even though I would say the pros have progressed past chopsticks, they have a long way to go. I think the OP makes a good point however, do to the nature of starcraft, its impossible to have a complete set piece from which to practice. | ||
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Tsuycc
Canada269 Posts
Maybe there should be a time limit that you could refer too i.e (first 5:30) | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On October 08 2011 13:32 RedDragon571 wrote: If your bad at starcraft it seems like starcraft would be more like memorizing a peice of music. But really that ain't true son, Starcraft is sexy improvised jazz and nothing else. There is no set sequence to memorize only smaller sets of action to combine at random depending on the situations. My OP actually proposes exactly what you believe Starcraft to be: to "memorize only smaller sets of action to combine at random depending on the situations." By breaking down our builds into thematic and manageable sections, we can achieve a mechanical fluidity that can't be accomplished by throwing oneself into ladder games. On October 08 2011 13:38 FoeHamr wrote: I kind of agree and kind of disagree at the same time. I was able to make it from bronze to diamond season 1 after about 800 1v1 and 400 2v2 or so by just laddering with basic knowledge of what the pros were doing - I watched Husky and HD - so they wernt directly teaching me how to play, just the general idea of what units to make at various points in the game. This was also the first RTS that I left the custom game lobby, so I was basically new to the whole idea of how to play. I always feel that the best way to improve in the lower leagues is not to work on anything specific, and to just play lots of games. The biggest hurdle to getting to diamond(for me at least) is just playing fast enough to do everything that I want to do and you cant really specifically work on that, its just something you gradually get better at with a lot of games played. Strategy is almost irrelevant if you cant execute it properly, so the biggest thing I would say to work on is playing faster. You bring up a very common situation - a player who quickly rises up to gold/diamond and all of a sudden hits a brick wall in progress. The common attitude here is to start wanting to speed up your game, when in fact, this reinforces a lot of the bad mechanical habits that you learned by progressing through the early ladder ranks so quickly. My OP proposes the opposite approach - instead of trying to get faster, get slower! Break down your game, understand your mechanics, and build a solid foundation from which you can work up from. It is a tried and proven method in music and other fields, and if you are disciplined enough, you will see rapid improvement. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
stuff like doing inject drills or micro battles in a unit tester is pretty clear. It's like working on scales and arpeggios so that your fingers will automatically recognize and play patterns without needing conscious thought from the brain. Micro battles are the same, you don't want to have to be thinking during the battle, you want to be acting as quickly as possible with as little interference from the brain. However, is there value in practicing a micro battle at low speed and speeding it up while you get comfortable with it? I certainly think that for intense micro situations like ling baneling vs ling baneling, this would be pretty beneficial What about taking an opening build order from a progamer, set several benchmarks, and repeat that opener on slow speed making sure you hit every benchmark, and increasing your speed? Is there value in that, or is it straightforward enough to just do it multiple times at speed. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On October 08 2011 13:55 Tsuycc wrote: This is about the practice Thing you proposed, What Main production facilities are you talking about, I mean as terran, you can go Barrack[3] or go for a 1/1/1 style Maybe there should be a time limit that you could refer too i.e (first 5:30) I pretty much made up my own timing push for that example, so take it with a grain of salt. Instead, use my example as a framework for how you should divide a build into sections. I think the general framework is applicable to most timing-push builds. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On October 08 2011 13:58 Oboeman wrote: I'm also a musician and I'm trying to think of ways to practice SC2 similar to music. stuff like doing inject drills or micro battles in a unit tester is pretty clear. It's like working on scales and arpeggios so that your fingers will automatically recognize and play patterns without needing conscious thought from the brain. Micro battles are the same, you don't want to have to be thinking during the battle, you want to be acting as quickly as possible with as little interference from the brain. However, is there value in practicing a micro battle at low speed and speeding it up while you get comfortable with it? What about taking an opening build order from a progamer, set several benchmarks, and repeat that opener on slow speed making sure you hit every benchmark, and increasing your speed? Is there value in that, or is it straightforward enough to just do it multiple times at speed. These are two excellent questions. I am not by any means a professional Starcraft player (I'm a diamond zerg), but I can offer answers to the best of my ability. What's important in your approach to any practice scenario is the level of control you have over your actions. In a micro battle for example, if you cannot process battles quickly enough and are generally feeling confused, absolutely slow it down. However, keep in mind that you are slowing down the battle to have absolute control and conscious over all your decisions and actions. As for practicing build orders, I believe that's largely of personal preference. Personally, I never found the need to slow down the game speed for build orders. Rather, I put a lot of effort into understanding and memorizing a new build order before I even touch the keyboard. Then I just repeat it a few times until I get it down. As previously stated, if you feel you don't have complete control over your actions, slow it down until you are comfortable. Speed can always wait for later. As for mimic-ing progamer benchmarks, that depends on your level of competition. If you aren't Masters level, don't even bother trying to mimic a top player. You'll find that practicing macro mechanics are much more important than shaving seconds off your opening. | ||
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qxc
United States550 Posts
Additionally, let's say theoretically we're doing 'everything' perfectly at the current game speed. A possible way to increase speed may be to train at a higher speed than normal. Additionally there are mental aspects that are completely ignored in your post. Consider the mental stress/tension of playing at an increased speed. If you can remain calm and continue to make good decisions at a more frantic pace, perhaps when you return to normal speed you will have a mental advantage. The main points you've made are substantiated through experience (both mine, yours, and many others) while the points I made are theory. You won't know what it really will end up doing until you try it despite any amount of theory crafting. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10290 Posts
On October 08 2011 14:29 qxc wrote: If you're working on executing something properly at full speed I agree with this. When I used to play guitar hero that was how I would learn new songs. The difference between music and starcraft is that music punishes you for being 'too fast' or off beat as it were. A song has a given tempo that needs to be met to play the song correctly. Starcraft has tempo built into it with all the macro/micro. There's a correct timing to producing additional units, stutter stepping, etc... The idea with my post was a way to possibly increase the number of actions we can perform by pushing our body harder. It's not a way to perfect timings and mechanics but rather a theory on how we might make the body faster. Additionally, let's say theoretically we're doing 'everything' perfectly at the current game speed. A possible way to increase speed may be to train at a higher speed than normal. Additionally there are mental aspects that are completely ignored in your post. Consider the mental stress/tension of playing at an increased speed. If you can remain calm and continue to make good decisions at a more frantic pace, perhaps when you return to normal speed you will have a mental advantage. The main points you've made are substantiated through experience (both mine, yours, and many others) while the points I made are theory. You won't know what it really will end up doing until you try it despite any amount of theory crafting. On October 08 2011 08:53 Exarl25 wrote: You say they have the exact same mechanical skill-set, but they don't. They may be similar but far from identical, there are important differences. The point has already been brought up but in Starcraft there is no such thing as too fast. The goal of QXC's method is to push yourself beyond your normal limits, play as fast as you possibly can. This makes no sense in the context of a musical instrument, you play at the speed the music is meant to be played, there is no sense in and no need in going faster than that. You hit the notes that are meant to be hit and those notes only, in Starcraft 2 there are almost an unlimited number of notes to be hit and the goal is merely to hit as many as you can. This is why increasing your speed is so important. For even the fastest progamers there are so many things left undone in a game of SC2. That's the problem QXC is attempting to solve and it's a problem that no musician has ever experienced. I think this is the answer to the confusion. Like these two posts said, there are 2 parts to improve on, and 1 big difference between starcraft and music. 1 aspect is to perfect a sequence of something, like a build order, making sure you inject/build workers, etc. But because in sc2 you can never be too fast, it means that it's not all about hitting the right notes 100%, because there is no limit to how many notes you can press. Therefore it becomes a challenge of how many notes you can press. A better example would be an impossible piano song, that you can never perfect. But the more notes you play (generally), the better you will perform it. And some notes (or actions in SC2) are more important and should be prioritized over others, like playing the melody over extra rhythms. So really you can practice both slow and fast; slow to learn something, fast to push yourself. Thanks for sharing input QXC  | ||
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
On October 08 2011 09:06 Exarl25 wrote: But music only goes so fast. There are never more notes to hit like there are moves to make in a game of Starcraft. uhm music goes faster than sc2, I'm pretty good at both (decent at sc2) | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10290 Posts
On October 08 2011 15:01 Soulish wrote: uhm music goes faster than sc2, I'm pretty good at both (decent at sc2) That's not the point. In sc2 you can never be fast enough to play perfect. However in piano, you can. There is the difference of playing perfectly (piano) vs playing as fast as you can (SC2). | ||
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
On October 08 2011 15:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: That's not the point. In sc2 you can never be fast enough to play perfect. However in piano, you can. There is the difference of playing perfectly (piano) vs playing as fast as you can (SC2). if you read what I quoted you'll understand | ||
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Bayyne
United States1967 Posts
>.< | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10290 Posts
On October 08 2011 16:21 Soulish wrote: if you read what I quoted you'll understand I did read it. It doesn't matter if music goes faster than SC2 (and how do you gauge that, how many APM/notes you hit?), again that's not the point or I'm missing something. The point is that any piece of music has its limit at 100% speed; any faster is too fast. Your performance does not sound better the faster you play it (not necessarily). However, in SC2, the faster you are, the better you are. | ||
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Syrupjuice
United States173 Posts
On October 08 2011 14:29 qxc wrote: If you're working on executing something properly at full speed I agree with this. When I used to play guitar hero that was how I would learn new songs. The difference between music and starcraft is that music punishes you for being 'too fast' or off beat as it were. A song has a given tempo that needs to be met to play the song correctly. Starcraft has tempo built into it with all the macro/micro. There's a correct timing to producing additional units, stutter stepping, etc... The idea with my post was a way to possibly increase the number of actions we can perform by pushing our body harder. It's not a way to perfect timings and mechanics but rather a theory on how we might make the body faster. Additionally, let's say theoretically we're doing 'everything' perfectly at the current game speed. A possible way to increase speed may be to train at a higher speed than normal. Additionally there are mental aspects that are completely ignored in your post. Consider the mental stress/tension of playing at an increased speed. If you can remain calm and continue to make good decisions at a more frantic pace, perhaps when you return to normal speed you will have a mental advantage. The main points you've made are substantiated through experience (both mine, yours, and many others) while the points I made are theory. You won't know what it really will end up doing until you try it despite any amount of theory crafting. My thoughts: + Show Spoiler + Additionally, let's say theoretically we're doing 'everything' perfectly at the current game speed. A possible way to increase speed may be to train at a higher speed than normal. If you're doing everything perfect, yes, you are probably completely right. I guess we could get started on creating these maps for when people become perfect at the game… in 5 years (maybe). + Show Spoiler + Additionally there are mental aspects that are completely ignored in your post. Consider the mental stress/tension of playing at an increased speed. If you can remain calm and continue to make good decisions at a more frantic pace, perhaps when you return to normal speed you will have a mental advantage. I believe the OP addressed theories and methods of training directed more towards the general player base, who do not have complete control over the basic mechanics of the game. However, the added mental tax of having to perform the necessary tasks at a faster speed may be beneficial in expanding your mental capacity. Is that the best way to increase your mind strength? It very well may be, but there may also be better solutions. Quick thought for discussion: Which might be better, playing a game on Faster and forcing yourself to make more valid movies (which would automatically require you to make moves faster) (A move being a sequence of commands with an intended result. In other words, not spamming) or playing in a game where you are only making the move faster but not able to capitalize on it? From my theory crafting stand point, forcing yourself to play more moves faster at a normal game speed is going to give you the best gauge of your abilities along with increasing both skill and mental capabilities together, instead of separately. I do not believe that Starcraft 2 is a game where speed comes first, but rather your mental prowess… but that's a different thread ;D Things to consider. + Show Spoiler + You won't know what it really will end up doing until you try it despite any amount of theory crafting. I wish you the best of luck and God speed. You got this bro ;D | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
Amateurs approach music practice in the following manner - there's a hard passage, so I'll just play through the entire piece over and over and over again until I nail it. Even though that can work, it takes faaaaar more time than by breaking it down into smaller sections and really focusing on what you need to work on. +1+1+1 post, as someone who plays at a fairly high level (both musically and in starcraft 2) this post is exactly correct, 100% spot on.n "Mass gaming" is the WORST way to practice. | ||
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Syrupjuice
United States173 Posts
I did read it. It doesn't matter if music goes faster than SC2 (and how do you gauge that, how many APM/notes you hit?), again that's not the point or I'm missing something. The point is that any piece of music has its limit at 100% speed; any faster is too fast. Your performance does not sound better the faster you play it (not necessarily). However, in SC2, the faster you are, the better you are. I do not necessarily agree with that last statement. Yes, there is evidence to support that claim, but there is also evidence that says you don't have to exceptionally fast at SC2 to perform well. This may just be the state of the game. Only time will tell I suppose. To address the rest of your response, what if we compare SC2 to a Celtic jig, the kind that starts off slowly and builds in speed and then ends when the musicians can no longer physically keep up with the song. There is no max or min tempo, yet it is still music, no? The term, 'Music,' seems to be putting an imagined limit to the maximum speed that is acceptable to play at. Many people are putting limits on music but none on Starcraft. I believe this is limiting the amount of valuable discussion we could be having. | ||
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Cortza
South Africa328 Posts
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letmegopls
105 Posts
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
On October 08 2011 05:54 Hapahauli wrote: OP's Note: While I make explicit references and criticisms of certain TL posts, it is not my intention to be insulting or "call someone out." I simply want to start a discussion on practice methods in Starcraft. I: Introduction Recently, qxc posted a blog on Starcraft Training DBZ Style, which was spotlighted on the TL front page. For those of you who haven't read it, qxc theorizes about a form of speed-training - increasing the speed of the game in a UMS map to improve one's mechanics. As someone who has an extensive background in piano and music education, I'm very surprised to see a professional player take this attitude towards practicing Starcraft (my original response), and I wanted to start a discussion on practice myths and methods in Starcraft 2. I've always considered mechanical skills on a musical instrument and a computer keyboard to be fundamentally similar, yet qxc's post goes against a lot of standards in music education. Technical skill in music and Starcraft both rely on having good muscle memory, yet the conventional wisdom of practicing music and Starcraft couldn't be more different. Some of these differences will be revealed below. II: Practice in Music By understanding how a musician approaches a new piece, we can better understand how we can learn to approach learning Starcraft mechanics. For example, when a professional musician approaches a new piece of music, these are the steps usually taken: 1) Break up the piece into smaller, simpler sections. 2) Practice each section slowly with an emphasis on proper technique and efficiency. 3) Put all the smaller sections together at a slow tempo. 4) Gradually bring the piece up to proper speed. 5) Polish the finished product. While variations my exist amongst different musicians, the core concepts remain. There is an emphasis on slow, mechanical mastery before all else. You will rarely see a good musician start learning a piece by beginning to play it at full speed. Yet many posts, including qxc's blog, emphasize the exact opposite. That somehow, playing full-speed games, or even artificially faster games, will improve your Starcraft skill. III: Practice Myths in Starcraft A quick TL search for a typical "help me improve" post reveals much about the conventional wisdom of Starcraft practice. [H]Improving my macro This is the most common advice I see, and to me, is also the most shocking. A lot of TL'ers think that by playing more games, you will eventually get better at the game. While there is some truth to it, I argue that this is nowhere near efficient. Telling one of my beginner piano students to practice a piece by playing it at full speed multiple times would be horrible advice. They would barely be able to coordinate themselves properly, and if by some miracle they learn the piece, they would undoubtedly play it sloppily. Yet this is exactly the advice I see being given to Starcraft beginners over and over again. Another bit of advice that surprises me. It still suggests that a beginner should repeatedly play games at full speed. Not only this, but it suggests that we play games against an unrealistic opponent. A computer is not a human, so what is the sense in playing against builds you will never see? Now we're getting somewhere. The idea of focused practice has been mentioned by authorities such as Day[9], and I believe this a step in the right direction. However, I think this doesn't go far enough. IV: Practice Propositions My ideal practice method would draw as many influences from music education as possible. As an example, what if we approached a new build-order in the same way that musicians approached new music? 1) Break down the build into "phases." For example, a beginning (up until you establish your main production structures), a middle (macroing out of your base production structures), and an end (your late-game plan and tech tree). 2) Establish your "macro cycles" for each phase. Hash out exactly what buttons you will be pressing in your typical macro cycle for each phase. 3) Practice this slowly until you are comfortable with the mechanics. 4) Gradually speed it up. 5) Polish against real human opponents. In addition, just like a musician devotes a significant amount of practice time to mechanics/technique (scales, arpeggios, and the like), why not devote a bit of your time to practicing macro mechanics as a Starcraft player? For example, perhaps a Zerg player should devote ten minutes of their time at the beginning of every session to practice larvae-inject mechanics. V: Questions and Discussion So TeamLiquid, how do you practice Starcraft? I'd be especially interested in hearing the opinions of some high ranked/professional players. Do you think there is any "practice wisdom" to be gained from music education? Here's the difference between practicing like it was music and as if it was a RTS, rhythm and multitasking. It's VERY simple given the proper ques to simply macro perfectly, and tweak a build to be as efficient as possible (if your build analysis is good enough). Now, how would you do if someone attacked you at a random timing and you're forced to micro your ass off? Your production stops completely, and you're working with whatever you already have. How do you alleviate this? First, work on your macro to get the basics down so that you don't float 1k minerals or gas, and simply keep playing. Put yourself in these micro-intensive situations and force yourself to keep macro in the back of your head. If you watch NaDa play, he always checks his production between micro actions (it's rather amazing actually). In that case, you COULD get into a rhythm, but it's far more complex than anything you do in music because you have to include the mouse and mouse precision based on what micro is retired. Improving macro is elementary. Simply ALWAYS make workers, never get supply blocked, don't que up units or workers, and spend your money as you get it. Once you get a solid build order, it becomes even simpler as you remember the simple timing ques that come with it. The issue is maintaining this rhythm as you're fighting for your life against an all in you weren't prepared for. All you can really learn is to perform macro sequences (ex - move screen to SCV(s), box/select SCV(s), press b, press s, click location for Supply Depot; press 5, press s to make SCV) as quickly as possible. After that, there's the issue of chaining these mini sequences together as quickly as possible to eliminate the lag time between actions to allow yourself as much time as possible to do anything else you might have to do. There's no reason ever to slow the game down to simply work on macro. The game isn't nearly fast enough that a person (even a beginner) couldn't do everything that they needed to in order to macro properly (not with MBS at least). And focusing on doing NOTHING but macro mechanics (Larvae Injects, Chrono Boost, and MULE) to do them perfect has little to no value except maybe to impress the general timings in the back of your head, but even that is useless. If you check through your hotkeys often enough (or fast enough), you lose maybe 2 seconds at most per cycle. How often are you able to just sit there and wait for your macro mechanics in a real game? Never. That's why we cycle through our production buildings to see when they are available. If you just think of the mechanics behind the game, the only way to improve is really in your mindset... The physical mechanics behind it are easy to master simply with blank practice (I use 4v4s to practice macro and builds), but the tough part is having the ability to focus on the right things at the right times - multitasking (also why I choose 4v4 since there are 4 people that can harass me with the most retarded shit ever). If you can get harassed, and still have smooth macro while microing your units around, that's when you know you have REALLY refined mechanics. And that ONLY comes through playing the game a lot. If I harass you with a Cloaked Banshee, DTs, or Mutas, will you sit there, focus solely on your macro and think "well I can easily macro that stuff back up, so I'll box whatever units I have in the area and A-move to the Mutas"? Will you take your units, and do your best to clean up and/or fend off the enemy while also doing your best to keep your workers alive? Or will you do things properly and macro while retreating your workers and sending your army in and microing it to get rid of the enemy harassment? So yeah... Just play more games, but have a direction/goal you're aiming for with the games you play. It's beyond dumb to play games simply to "play to get better". You NEED a direction as you ALWAYS do in order to get better at anything. Like, if I wanted to get better at a repetition sport like tennis (somewhat comparable to SC), I can't just go out and hit thousands of balls. It would help, no doubt, but it doesn't fundamentally improve my shots any more than improving my timing. If I want my shot to actually get better, I need a goal like to hit deeper (closer to the baseline), closer to the sidelines, or with more spin. And with tennis as with SC, you need a PROPER goal to aim for. Hitting the ball harder/faster is the same as aiming to have 300-400 APM. It's meaningless if you can't do anything with it (control it). If you keep playing more, ball speed/APM comes naturally as you get better. And a lot comes down to simply how you think, which can only be worked on by going out there and just doing it. | ||
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