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[D] Practice Myths and Methods - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
October 10 2011 22:11 GMT
#141
On October 11 2011 06:38 Tedde93 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2011 02:45 Hapahauli wrote:
On October 10 2011 23:22 Diks wrote:
On October 10 2011 23:09 Desert Fox wrote:
You're speaking of dusting. Most people are not at that level yet where they should be worrying about starsense.

Oh I just realised the non sense of this thread :
The OP talk about LEARNING starcraft and compares his approach to qxc approach to IMPROVE at starcraft.
Yes, if you never played starcraft before, play some games vs AI and practice builds order over and over and learn to get to 200 food without supply blok, learn every unit and shortcuts of the game, watch some pro plays and BO then go hit the ladder.
If you are Diamond-Master, Play a lot and analyse your replays.


Almost, but not quite.

I am indeed talking about learning Starcraft, however, I don't limit this to beginners. The learning process extends far beyond a Starcraft beginner; players of all skill levels have things to improve on and learn in their game.

Unless you have perfect mechanics (If you're not named Flash or Jaedong, you don't), slow mechanical practice is a great way to improve your game and will lead to much bigger gains in skill than simple mass-gaming. There definitely is a place for mass gaming in practice - it is an excellent way to practice decision making - but don't use it as a way to improve your mechanics. Balance is key.

I also argue that qxc's approach is a bad idea for improvement. For those without perfect mechanics, playing something artificially fast leads to learning bad habits. Qxc's post is only acceptable in the theoretical sense and assumes perfect mechanics/technique.

On October 10 2011 23:28 Tedde93 wrote:
I think there is truth to this the only problem though is i think that it WON'T BE FUN, the fun factor is often what makes people come back and play more. If you give a noob a few boring steps to get better he is probably not gonna go through with it and might even quit the game thinking that this is the only way to advance. If you could make that kind of training fun however it will be a huge success, unlikely as that may be.


Nonsense! I know plenty beginners who mass-game, get frustrated that they keep losing, and ragequit. I'm simply suggesting that if you devote a small bit of your time to mechanical practice (even 5-10 minutes before every session!), you'll get better. Much better.

Winning is very fun.


Yes but you won't win games since the amount of normal games you play is cut by a third to half if you spend 5-10 minutes before each game and the blizzard ladder system is made so you have an average of 50% win ratio.


Just so you know, I'm suggesting 5-10 minutes before every session, not every game. Also, what if we continuously improve? Our ladder record will be above 50% for sure. Lastly, there are other criteria of victory beyond the ladder, such as playing vs. friends and such.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Mr.SoloDolo
Profile Joined June 2011
American Samoa90 Posts
October 11 2011 00:36 GMT
#142
Well if you want to play on slow go ahead, it's your time, waste it however you want. You have no evidence it's better than training on "faster", other than an analogy to learning music.

QXC's training method and your training method both have the same amount of empirical evidence: none.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you if you honestly believe playing on slow is more effective. Why am I not going to bother? Because if you believe something without any evidence you're an illogical person and you can't use reason with illogical people.
Incontrol+Idra+Tyler Fighting
John Madden
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
American Samoa894 Posts
October 11 2011 00:42 GMT
#143
Before every game I spend afewm inutes just preparing my body for what is about to happen.
Mind over matter.
FOOTBALL
megapants
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1314 Posts
October 11 2011 01:06 GMT
#144
On October 10 2011 23:28 Tedde93 wrote:
I think there is truth to this the only problem though is i think that it WON'T BE FUN, the fun factor is often what makes people come back and play more. If you give a noob a few boring steps to get better he is probably not gonna go through with it and might even quit the game thinking that this is the only way to advance. If you could make that kind of training fun however it will be a huge success, unlikely as that may be.

this is a pretty horrible mindset. improving and bettering oneself is what many people consider to be fun. people get enjoyment out of knowing that they are getting better at something because of their hard work and determination. if they quit just because they are bored, they aren't the types of people who are likely to improve anyway. "rome wasn't build in a day."

it's not about having fun doing the practice. sure, that would be a bonus, but the fun comes from winning. winning feels the absolute best if you feel like you earned it, wouldn't you say?

John Madden
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
American Samoa894 Posts
October 11 2011 01:35 GMT
#145
On October 11 2011 10:06 megapants wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2011 23:28 Tedde93 wrote:
I think there is truth to this the only problem though is i think that it WON'T BE FUN, the fun factor is often what makes people come back and play more. If you give a noob a few boring steps to get better he is probably not gonna go through with it and might even quit the game thinking that this is the only way to advance. If you could make that kind of training fun however it will be a huge success, unlikely as that may be.

this is a pretty horrible mindset. improving and bettering oneself is what many people consider to be fun. people get enjoyment out of knowing that they are getting better at something because of their hard work and determination. if they quit just because they are bored, they aren't the types of people who are likely to improve anyway. "rome wasn't build in a day."

it's not about having fun doing the practice. sure, that would be a bonus, but the fun comes from winning. winning feels the absolute best if you feel like you earned it, wouldn't you say?


Mindsets are just mindsets man, kinda like the stuff betty white says.
FOOTBALL
ChanmanV
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1156 Posts
October 11 2011 02:16 GMT
#146
Completely ignoring the strategic aspect of SC2, this thread does have many good points. Having been classically trained in piano for 12 years I have to admit there have been times where Ive felt the similarities of my SC2 mechanical practices to my days of driving my parents crazy with the cacophony that was being generated on the piano growing up.

So looking at it from purely a mechanical sense, his points on segmenting the games into different phases is in the right direction. I think I would describe it more like segmenting the game into snapshot scenarios. You're probably wondering what does that mean? Here's an example, instead of playing games on the ladder where any thing in the entire spectrum of strategy can happen from game to game, practice with a partner or even a map trainer certain scenarios. This is more focused training. Say in ZvZ, practice ling bane exchanges over and over until you get this "rhythm" of injecting and moving and detonating down. Or it's getting the unsiege and then sieging tanks while running/splitting marines back to tank line motion fluid and fast. Or feedbacking ghost/medivacs while blink microing stalkers. It's this specific kind of focused mechanical training that creates the motor memory which makes it second nature.

So drawing back to the music analogy for you piano folks, it's like doing rote exercises of Hanon or Czerny. These are snippets of music designed to train your hand to play certain runs fluidly and in control. The key though is that they are meant to be played as fast as possible under control. Eventually the muscles in your hand will react instantly (without hesitation or fatigue) and can be applied to any piece of music. These exercises are more analogous to SC2 than playing a piece of music because of the removal of tempo or dynamic limitations (to QXC's point).

There are so many threads talking about strats all the time, but in the end, the mechanical mastery is really what separates the pros from the average GM player. Add in strategic mastery and then you have a top pro.
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-11 04:48:15
October 11 2011 04:25 GMT
#147
On October 11 2011 09:36 Mr.SoloDolo wrote:
Well if you want to play on slow go ahead, it's your time, waste it however you want. You have no evidence it's better than training on "faster", other than an analogy to learning music.


You confuse burden of proof. I offered my analogy to music (and sports), yet you dismiss it on completely unstated grounds. As state explicitly in my OP:

"Learning Starcraft and music are fundamentally the same because they involve learning a new skill. This learning process is common and well-established in many other fields (sports, music, etc.), but for some reason, hasn't carried over to Starcraft."

Is this analogy insufficient? How so? I am open to all rational criticism, however, I can't sufficiently reply if you don't provide an actual argument.

QXC's training method and your training method both have the same amount of empirical evidence: none.


I offer evidence from other fields via. analogy. If you would like some reading material (read: "empirical evidence"), I point you to the following resources:

http://hbr.org/2007/07/the-making-of-an-expert/ar/1

http://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overrated-World-Class-Performers-EverybodyElse/dp/1591842247

This of course assumes my music analogy, and all other analogies concerning learning processes, hold true. You are more than welcome to try and discredit them, but they are rather well-accepted and well-founded in academia.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you if you honestly believe playing on slow is more effective. Why am I not going to bother? Because if you believe something without any evidence you're an illogical person and you can't use reason with illogical people.


Mr.SoloDolo, you seem like a well-spoken individual, and I do believe that we can have a rational debate on this subject. However, I do find it a bit ironic that you're using ad hominem attacks while accusing me of being illogical.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
phiinix
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1169 Posts
October 11 2011 04:59 GMT
#148
It's a cool post and all, and I agree, but unfortunately I feel like it only carries so far. "perfect macro" or near perfect macro as well can only go so far: 10-15 minutes into the game. Forgive me for not reading all 8 pages, but I feel like most people are arguing/discussing the validity of the practice regiment itself, not it's applications. Just to make it clear, I think the beginning stages of learning how to play should be lots and lots of games against the computer at fast then faster speed. I myself placed low gold, then proceeded to played nothing but 1v1 computer games for weeks, and came back top plat before I hit another block.

Maybe you would agree, but I feel like the time saved or "worth it" factor isn't as great here as it is in music, or the simple fact that we're playing sc2. We're playing against someone else, not ourselves. A music player ALWAYS knows exactly how the piece should sound. It's very straight forward compared to sc2, where the variety of strategies and tactics make the game spiral out of control very fast. It becomes very reactive play, and you simply can't practice that way against a computer. Even if you could simulate 1 strategy or opening, the things that can happen in a game exponentially increase as the game progresses, and it just makes more sense to mass games.

I still playing on adjusted settings no matter what would be awesome. I just can't imagine how grueling it would be to play 100 games with a practice partner on slow speed and have to go through that early game every single time.
North2
Profile Joined January 2011
134 Posts
October 11 2011 05:01 GMT
#149
Well, I read this thread and your response to QXC's thread and I think it's a matter of viewpoint. This is my response to qxc's thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=272692&currentpage=12#228

To me, this "DBZ style training" is targeted practice, which you do condone. It's targeted towards speed and just speed, and only to a certain extent. I'm not sure about TL players, but the vast majority of SC2 players just don't click fast enough to even learn anything past what they've already learned.

I do agree with the rest of your post, but I really don't think you should dismiss qxc's idea. There's a LOT of people who have problems getting above a certain level of APM because that's what they're comfortable with, when they're not supposed to be comfortable with it. Speeding up the game seems like the perfect solution, since it'll make them very uncomfortable with their current APM and that's how it should be.
www.twitch.tv/rnorth2
weishime
Profile Joined August 2011
65 Posts
October 11 2011 05:29 GMT
#150
On October 10 2011 15:34 Mr.SoloDolo wrote:
What's wrong with mass gaming and then looking at your replays to see where you played wrong and then improve on it? Seems like a legitimate way to practice to me.

EDIT:
To all those people who think playing on the "normal" or "slow" speed is a good idea: you're a moron. "Hey guys lets practice some basketball but theres no running, you have to walk!"

Edit2: adding more analogies for "slow" people to understand.
"Hey guys lets play football but in wheel chairs!"
"Hey guys lets play chess without the queens!"
"Hey guys lets practice NASCAR racing but only drive at 20mph!"
"Hey guys lets practice hockey without a goalie!"


When you remove a key element of the game, or slow it down, you're playing an entirely different game.

Crawl before you run only applies in certain situations, SC2 is not one of them.


The first analogy was fine, but apparently coaches do walk players through plays like that to let all players know where they are meant to be at certain times I guess. Likewise NASCAR I guess...if the drivers were learning the track would drive slower at least for other kinds of driving races I believe drivers do warm up laps/practice laps at slower speeds rather than going full throttle straight away. This is fine since we are talking about practice.

The other analogies don't work because rather than affecting the speed they put a handicap onto the player to make the game harder. That kind of practice also seems fine as it forces the player/team to focus on certain aspects of the game to compensate for their deficiency and think about the game in a slightly different way. In the case of no goalie, better defending.

Practicing a new build/whatever at normal speed rather than faster might be completely valid if only to get a sense of it. No one seems to be saying practice at normal speed exclusively and then go to ladder or some tournament and rock it. Rather just begin slow and build up into faster after proper execution has been achieved at normal. Sounds perfectly reasonable and might explain why a new player can play 50 practice games on normal speed with rocks as a guard before doing placement matches.

To the OP I agree with the idea of breaking down play into smaller chunks and focus on proper execution but might disagree with the playing at a slower tempo and then to gradual speed for some elements of play like the macro mechanics mules/chrono/injects as these require the player to develop an in game sense of time which playing at slower speed could mess with unless we all purchase a metronome.

Actually, after checking out a few online metronomes, I might use something like + Show Spoiler +
http://advanced.bestmetronome.com/
to play in the background to try and keep time for that. Was looking for an mp3 but that seems much cooler.
Jitsu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States929 Posts
October 11 2011 05:36 GMT
#151
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 08 2011 10:39 ghol wrote:
Great post, first of all. Secondly, to those who continue to harp on "playing for fun", why does this topic concern you? If you want to play for fun then do so, and leave the people who are interested in developing their SC2 skill efficiently to discuss various strategies for doing so.

Now insofar as the OP claims that the advice to "play more macro games" to really polish your macro is unhelpful advice for people who have macro woes, he is absolutely correct. As anybody who has studied the development of expertise (or has achieved expertise in a competitive/highly developed field) likely knows, deliberate practice of specific sub-skills is paramount to the attainment of the solid base of technical proficiency that is necessary for expert performance. That is, continual and attentive drilling of basic skills in a controlled environment (read: NOT the activity in its totality as it would be performed in competition) is far and away the most effective way to teach beginners a new skill-set, for intermediates to shore up weaknesses in their game and make measurable improvement, and for experts to retain the sharpness and crispness that makes them as good as they are.

I enjoy the musical analogy, but I think there is an even better one given the competitive nature of SC2. I myself have been training Muay Thai (a form of kickboxing, for those unawares) nigh on 6 years now, and the analogy seems strong. How do expert trainers in martial arts teach their students? Do they throw them into sparring every hour of every single session and say "use your punches more" if their punches are lacking speed/power/timing/accuracy? Do they greet their students and tell them to start sparring and "work on their speed"? No, and with good reason. This is the proposed equivalent of the mass-gaming-only approach. If one just "plays a lot" or "fights a lot", you will inevitably get better, but the atrocious mistakes you are constantly making unawares will become habitual over time with this sort of approach. Your sense of how to engage with a live opponent will certainly improve dramatically in this way, and so will your ability to "think on the fly", but this benefit could just as easily be attained through a more deliberate, sensible regimen that is focused primarily on the attainment of solid fundamentals before throwing one into the flames, as it were. The flames will come in training, obviously, but they ought to be kept at bay until the player has some notion of what they should and should not be doing, and what they need to focus on, whether this or that is good/bad execution of some action, etc, etc.

Professional boxers still drill the jab and the cross every single training session. The majority of their training is typically not sparring with live opponents. Rather, it is a far more controlled and focused drilling of various sub-skills such as different combinations of punches, footwork, head movement, and so forth. There are few if any long-lived, well-developed competitive activities that are not approached in this fashion. Music, football, basketball, boxing, MMA, golf, wrestling, Muay Thai, and even activities like chess are trained in this fashion because, quite simply, it is far and away the most effective approach for improving quickly and avoiding the pitfalls of habituating bad/inefficient technique.

Why has it not seeped in SC2, then? Well, primarily because eSports is very young in the grand scheme of things, and this sort of wisdom has yet to work its way in except perhaps in small portions of the professional community. What is and is not efficient/appropriate technique has not yet been deeply explored and laid out by long decades of competition and thought on the subject. This will change with time, and more and more the training that a would-be professional gamer, or just plain old professional gamer receives will come to resemble in many respects the same broad kind of training structure that so many other, more developed skill-oriented activities already have.

Mass gaming has its place, undoubtedly. Just as a fighter who never spars is never going to be very good a SC2 gamer that never actually plays competitive 1v1 is not going to be very good either, regardless of much deliberate practice of sub-skills they engage in. However, focusing on mass gaming only, at any level of skill is a mistake. Once you stop drilling the fundamentals, even as a professional, progress will be slowed, halted, or even somewhat reversed on the many sub-skills that are now only receiving attention in-game. The key is balancing actual practice with the sort of precise, controlled practice that will shore up and make efficient different portions of the competitor's play.

Interestingly, the only place in the SC2 world where this sort of thing is occurring to any appreciable extent is Korea. Koreans have a system left over from Brood War that employs coaches who can watch over players as they play, point out certain things that they need to work on (and thus spur the focused practice of specific sub-skills that would have eluded somebody who simply "plays a lot") and so on. This practice can be as simple as playing a custom game against an AI that sits around and never attacks while focusing on some aspect of play, or it can involve specific builds or strategies with an informed practice partner. I don't think the system in Korea is at the level of a highly developed sport as of yet, but it is far better than what most foreigners have access to. This could well be a factor in the Korean superiority on average amongst the professionals.

In summary, I think the OP is largely correct in that there is a much better way to improve effectively and quickly than what is often pandered on the strategy forums. The literature on the development of expertise points in this direction as well; just doing the activity a lot is not enough when a field becomes developed and competitive enough.

Thanks if you managed to read this entire post!



Awesome post, Ghol. I would like to add something to this analogy as well.
So, my name, as one can guess, is a reference to the martial art of Jiu Jitsu. While I have also trained in Kick Boxing, Aikido, and a small amount of Muay Thai (very small, infact), my focus has been on training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for the past three years.

Our training sessions go similar to this.
- Stretch out, plyometrics, ect for about 15-20 minutes.
- Drill Technique and Mechanics (I use those words specifically) with a partner/partners.
- Sparring (live rolling).

Let's break each point down. At the same time, I will show how each point can be translated to SC2 (at least how I see it)
The Warm Up
In Jiu-Jitsu, muscles need to be warmed up and loosened before the drilling takes place. This can be as simple as jumping jacks to yoga - anything to focus and ready the body, but also the mind.
In SC2, I believe that this warm-up phase is also important. A quick game to get your mindset straight and your hands to recall positioning and movements, I believe, is as essential as playing a game. Sure, you can skip it, just like skipping the stretch phase before a football game. But this warm-up can get you ready for what lies ahead.

The Drill
Before we even drill a new movement, we go back and do a Jiu-Jitsu style kata, call Shrimps. While this isn't required knowledge of what a Shrimp is in regards to SC2, let's just say it could be the equvilent to a macro cycle.
In Jits class, this is the majority of our mat time. We take one, maybe two specific movements, and work on them. We break each movement down, into seperate sections, and work on each until we can do it while having a conversation with another person. Technical mastery of each movement is required before you are promoted to the next belt class.
In SC2, drilling these mechanics and techniques are something that need to be done. Jumping into a game where you are being cannon rushed every other match doesn't teach you how to macro well. Then, the next game where you have a 30+ minute game, you don't know what to do, or how to do it properly, because your mechanics are flawed.

The Spar
In class, the last portion is taking what we learned, in that class, and previous, and applying it. Or taking one part of our game, that we want to work on, and improving it. Over and over. In a live match. Where counters are forced, where techniques are pushed. Gee, that almost sounds like a SC2 game, doesn't it?

Using this model, you can have a practice partner (or partners) can help you in both circumstances. After drilling your technique and mechanics, you apply it in a real game situation, having different scenario's forced on you from your partner, to give you real-game stress. Try it, than go hit the ladder. You might be surprised.
Zerg Player in CheckMate Gaming - http://checkmategaming.webs.com/
Tedde93
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden169 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-11 08:12:04
October 11 2011 06:09 GMT
#152
On October 11 2011 07:11 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2011 06:38 Tedde93 wrote:
On October 11 2011 02:45 Hapahauli wrote:
On October 10 2011 23:22 Diks wrote:
On October 10 2011 23:09 Desert Fox wrote:
You're speaking of dusting. Most people are not at that level yet where they should be worrying about starsense.

Oh I just realised the non sense of this thread :
The OP talk about LEARNING starcraft and compares his approach to qxc approach to IMPROVE at starcraft.
Yes, if you never played starcraft before, play some games vs AI and practice builds order over and over and learn to get to 200 food without supply blok, learn every unit and shortcuts of the game, watch some pro plays and BO then go hit the ladder.
If you are Diamond-Master, Play a lot and analyse your replays.


Almost, but not quite.

I am indeed talking about learning Starcraft, however, I don't limit this to beginners. The learning process extends far beyond a Starcraft beginner; players of all skill levels have things to improve on and learn in their game.

Unless you have perfect mechanics (If you're not named Flash or Jaedong, you don't), slow mechanical practice is a great way to improve your game and will lead to much bigger gains in skill than simple mass-gaming. There definitely is a place for mass gaming in practice - it is an excellent way to practice decision making - but don't use it as a way to improve your mechanics. Balance is key.

I also argue that qxc's approach is a bad idea for improvement. For those without perfect mechanics, playing something artificially fast leads to learning bad habits. Qxc's post is only acceptable in the theoretical sense and assumes perfect mechanics/technique.

On October 10 2011 23:28 Tedde93 wrote:
I think there is truth to this the only problem though is i think that it WON'T BE FUN, the fun factor is often what makes people come back and play more. If you give a noob a few boring steps to get better he is probably not gonna go through with it and might even quit the game thinking that this is the only way to advance. If you could make that kind of training fun however it will be a huge success, unlikely as that may be.


Nonsense! I know plenty beginners who mass-game, get frustrated that they keep losing, and ragequit. I'm simply suggesting that if you devote a small bit of your time to mechanical practice (even 5-10 minutes before every session!), you'll get better. Much better.

Winning is very fun.


Yes but you won't win games since the amount of normal games you play is cut by a third to half if you spend 5-10 minutes before each game and the blizzard ladder system is made so you have an average of 50% win ratio.


Just so you know, I'm suggesting 5-10 minutes before every session, not every game. Also, what if we continuously improve? Our ladder record will be above 50% for sure. Lastly, there are other criteria of victory beyond the ladder, such as playing vs. friends and such.


I don't really see what you could achieve in 5-10 min a day (I play at most a session a day, maybe not true for others) and besides that playing/winning against friends is almost only fun if you are at equal skill level.
Patiance is the element of succes"
Zocat
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2229 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-11 08:55:56
October 11 2011 08:55 GMT
#153
On October 10 2011 13:41 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
I've never tried this so I guess I cannot know for certain but I know that when I started I just went straight for playing vs real opponents, tried out all the different races while doing this, and tried out different strats vs real opponents too, and I'm almost sure that this was better for me than playing how you suggest.


Its great that mass gaming worked out for you, but what I suggest has been proven in other fields to work even better. I think its rather shortsighted to dismiss something without even trying it.

Plus, its not like I'm suggesting you should never ever play games. Rather, I only encourage you to take a new approach when learning a new build, or perhaps refining your mechanics.


I just cannot agree with you & your method 100%.
Look at High Intensity Training & Getting out of your comfort zone in other fields where you train stuff (i.e. weight lifting). It's basically the exact opposite to what you suggest:
"Fuck precision only speed matters - spam those APM".

There's even a nice thread about it in the BW Forum.
There's also the Using Biology to increase APM Thread ("People who spam APM and drive their hand-speed to the limits will have a better APM long term compared to those who stick to the hand speed their "comfortable" with.").

So the best way to actually improve is problably a combination of those two. Using your method 1 day for precision and do some high intensity spam the other day for pure speed & muscle strength.
Sticking to either one seems to be inferior.
Rohan
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom83 Posts
October 11 2011 10:02 GMT
#154
I'm a pretty competitive hockey goalie, and I totally agree. All the facets of my game, I break down into individual subsets each training session: skating, recoveries, reaction time and so on and so forth. Only once I feel I've gotten one certain subset improved enough, do I start putting them all together into something like a rebound drill, or something, even. Let alone breakaways or a full game situation.

I think, in many ways, Starcraft 2 and hockey goaltending kinda share some similar stuff: both are very cerebral, and both involve a great deal of small skills that can effect the overall whole. I always inwardly cringe when someone says "All you need is to play some more games!" -- I mean, practise doesn't make perfect. Perfect practise does. If all you needed was more games, then that bronze player with over 1500 league wins should be hitting Master's league soon....
Junichi
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany1056 Posts
October 11 2011 10:52 GMT
#155
For everyone interested more in the subject of learning, I would recommend the book: The Talent Code, by Daniel Coyle. It is not only about learning / training, but motivation and coaching too, but it is very applicable to this thread.

He describes what learning actually biologically means (or maybe I should say as what it is understood as of ~now). That is, that while using a certain skill the nerve fibres in your brain connected to the body parts necessary for that skill are fired. If these get fired more often the brain system starts to make those fibres more efficient by better isolating them (with a sort of fat called myelin). So repetition is very good to learn skills!

This, I notice, could be seen as an argument for mass gaming and vs. what the OP stated, but it really is not. That is because "playing starcraft" is much too broad a "skill" to be trained separately, much like a whole musical piece to stick with the analogy of the OP. It consists of too many other skills / parts.
"Playing starcraft" can not be trained on it's own, but has to be broken down into smaller parts, which then should be mass trained. (Training a certain part of musical piece 10 times just doesn't cut it, you have to play it hundreds and hundreds, or if you want to become really good, thousands and thousands of times.)

So I wanted to give a little piece of advise if anyone would be interested in that, the book really helped me a lot to understand how learning a skill works. Thought this might be interesting for some here, too.

Really great OP + thread.
"Until the very, very top, in almost anything all that matters, is how much work you put in. The only problem is that most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for." - Greg "IdrA" Fields
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-11 16:59:05
October 11 2011 16:57 GMT
#156
Loved your essay.

I think what we really need now is for someone to actually create a SC2 training "method" and for people to fine-tune good practice regimens.

I mean, the OP mentions practicing specific parts of your play, but this could be so much more effective with a custom map.
Bora Pain minha porra!
bmn
Profile Joined August 2010
886 Posts
October 11 2011 17:17 GMT
#157
On October 11 2011 09:36 Mr.SoloDolo wrote:
Well if you want to play on slow go ahead, it's your time, waste it however you want. You have no evidence it's better than training on "faster", other than an analogy to learning music.

QXC's training method and your training method both have the same amount of empirical evidence: none.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you if you honestly believe playing on slow is more effective. Why am I not going to bother? Because if you believe something without any evidence you're an illogical person and you can't use reason with illogical people.



Hapahauli has pointed out various research and studies that at least suggest that playing on slow /is/ a promising approach. Perhaps he's wrong, but you're not doing anything to advance the discussion.
There is actually a lot of empirical evidence for the training method in other contexts, and whether or not it applies in the context of Starcraft is arguable, but all I can see suggests that it should. Even in competitive motor sports, people train in slower, more easily controllable vehicles first, and move up through the leagues later; speed is clearly paramount in those disciplines.

Yes, cost is a major, if not the dominant reason for this, but I argue that it is also the most effective approach for learning. Pop an amateur in a F1 car and you'll never teach him to drive /really/ well; you'll be happy if he survives long enough to learn how to get around the course hale. Start him in smaller vehicle to hone his racing skills, and he'll truly be able to excel once he's ready for faster vehicles.
Perhaps this does indeed not carry over to SC2, but as many pointed out, playing at faster speeds may just teach you to cut corners in ways that won't improve your standard-speed play. Even proponents of the "play faster" theory are clearly saying that this isn't meant for people who haven't already mastered the game to some degree.

The statement that "if you believe something without any evidence you're an illogical person" is pretty ill-informed and has nothing to do with reason; it's just an attempt to derail the thread without providing any constructive contribution.
bmn
Profile Joined August 2010
886 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-11 17:30:19
October 11 2011 17:25 GMT
#158
On October 11 2011 17:55 Zocat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2011 13:41 Hapahauli wrote:
I've never tried this so I guess I cannot know for certain but I know that when I started I just went straight for playing vs real opponents, tried out all the different races while doing this, and tried out different strats vs real opponents too, and I'm almost sure that this was better for me than playing how you suggest.


Its great that mass gaming worked out for you, but what I suggest has been proven in other fields to work even better. I think its rather shortsighted to dismiss something without even trying it.

Plus, its not like I'm suggesting you should never ever play games. Rather, I only encourage you to take a new approach when learning a new build, or perhaps refining your mechanics.


I just cannot agree with you & your method 100%.
Look at High Intensity Training & Getting out of your comfort zone in other fields where you train stuff (i.e. weight lifting). It's basically the exact opposite to what you suggest:
"Fuck precision only speed matters - spam those APM".

There's even a nice thread about it in the BW Forum.
There's also the Using Biology to increase APM Thread ("People who spam APM and drive their hand-speed to the limits will have a better APM long term compared to those who stick to the hand speed their "comfortable" with.").

So the best way to actually improve is problably a combination of those two. Using your method 1 day for precision and do some high intensity spam the other day for pure speed & muscle strength.
Sticking to either one seems to be inferior.


You're confusing physical and cerebral skills; the brain is a very peculiar muscle. Pushing yourself hard *is* good, but the leap from physical overexertion to cognitive overload is far from obvious -- there's no reason to assume that heavier weights or faster running speed have the same effect on muscles an faster playing speed has on the brain. Music alone should be enough to show how the analogy can break down. Starcraft is not limited by VO2max, muscle output, or whatever; it's limited by cognitive factors.

If it is indeed just your physical ability to move the fingers rapidly that holds you back, I'll agree with you that spamming looks like a good way to improve max APM. I suspect for most people this isn't the limiting factor (and this thread is about general practice).

Note where we disagree: I'm not saying that you're wrong about improving APM; I'm saying that improving APM is one small componant of improving your overall skill as a player, and that 'increase game speed' is not an efficient way to improve your skill set as a whole.
If you claim that scouting, decision-making (tech choices, when to attack/defend), positioning, etc., also are best trained by just increasing game speed -- that's where I disagree.


On October 11 2011 19:02 Rohan wrote:
I'm a pretty competitive hockey goalie, and I totally agree. All the facets of my game, I break down into individual subsets each training session: skating, recoveries, reaction time and so on and so forth. Only once I feel I've gotten one certain subset improved enough, do I start putting them all together into something like a rebound drill, or something, even. Let alone breakaways or a full game situation.

I think, in many ways, Starcraft 2 and hockey goaltending kinda share some similar stuff: both are very cerebral, and both involve a great deal of small skills that can effect the overall whole. I always inwardly cringe when someone says "All you need is to play some more games!" -- I mean, practise doesn't make perfect. Perfect practise does. If all you needed was more games, then that bronze player with over 1500 league wins should be hitting Master's league soon....


I agree.


On October 11 2011 19:52 Junichi wrote:
[...]

This, I notice, could be seen as an argument for mass gaming and vs. what the OP stated, but it really is not. That is because "playing starcraft" is much too broad a "skill" to be trained separately, much like a whole musical piece to stick with the analogy of the OP. It consists of too many other skills / parts.

[...]

Really great OP + thread.


Yeah, what you said is pretty much the point I was making throughout my responses. Playing starcraft is important to practice, as it brings everything together and does represent the final benchmark you're evaluating yourself against. But for most people -- who have specific areas of weaknesses to improve on --, just playing the game (ladder) isn't the best way to actually improve their performance that benchmark.
justBunneh
Profile Joined September 2011
Canada38 Posts
October 11 2011 18:26 GMT
#159
I love this post, I skimmed through it the first time (will read attentively when I get home). I feel like people want to improve too fast so they skip all the fine details ;o Also I think it's good to think of yourself as a good player but always improving :D rather than "oh I suck " Better to be motivated.
Summon your Zealots!
dementrio
Profile Joined November 2010
678 Posts
October 11 2011 18:58 GMT
#160
"learning a new skill" does not generalize everything.

For example, take learning a new language. It is widely thought that the best method for learning any language is to move to a place where you'd be forced to speak it everyday. Indeed, many think it's the only method to become fluent.

In a situation where you don't have a coach, there are no well-defined teaching or training techniques, or simply where it's easy and cheap to mass game, it may very well be that mass gaming is the best method to improve.

I don't think this is the case with starcraft, but mass gaming certainly makes you improve, and by a lot. I got from 0 rts experience to the top of masters in ca.5 months by just playing a lot, not even analyzing my replays once.
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