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Curu, why so defensive? Especially if you know a lynch isn't going to get started on you?
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On July 18 2011 21:13 Drazerk wrote:Time to actually go to work I guess. Let's start with our always scum fellow Mr. Wiggles shall we? Now we could say wiggles has a track record of being scum but the problem is his scum play has been pretty bland, In fact in RTM / WaW2 we was able to pick him out as scum just because of how little effort he puts in when being scum. Now when I read the thread this morning I was pretty much blown away by how much effort he was putting in, Its almost as if he did a 180 and is trying his best to not follow his scum meta by promoting a pro town atmosphere. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Ok, so let's get this started! First things first, let's lay out some things we want to achieve, and some guidelines. A pro-town atmosphereThis normally goes without saying, but it often bears repeating. If we want to catch scum, we need to have the proper environment for scum hunting and for communicating with each other. This means a couple things: - Promoting scum hunting.
- Not having pointless arguments
- Actively contributing
- All that jazz
Basically, we want to keep the thread as clean as possible, because chaos best serves mafia, not town. If you really don't know what to do, there's town guides. I'm not going to write one here, because I'm too lazy, and don't consider myself experienced enough to try. However, I am going to go through the three points above, as I think they are very important. We always want people to scum-hunt. There's never an excuse not to scum-hunt; everyone can do it. This provides us with many benefits. First, it's the primary method for actually finding scum. It also means that people have to give their actual thoughts, and have to come up with things beyond "I agree". This gives us information, and information is good. It lets us know what you're thinking, and it puts pressure on mafia to have to contribute. Also, forcing mafia to scum-hunt means that there's a good chance of catching them just based on their analysis, because it's hard to find people who are scummy, when you know they aren't scum. Next, we want to avoid bickering. This goes hand in hand with keeping the thread clean. This is different from actually debating with people, and you should be able to tell the difference between rationality, and NO U. If anyone is having a pointless argument, they will be asked to stop. It doesn't help town, only mafia. Lastly, we want people to contribute. There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's easy for mafia to hide amongst lurkers, and beyond that, lurkers are nearly impossible to analyze. So, contribute. This doesn't mean make tons of pointless one-liners, it means providing actual thoughts, analysis, and content. You can do it, I believe in you. And if you don't, we can always just ask a vig to shoot you. We don't want people to lurk. CluesThere's clues in this game. However, all clue analysis MUST MUST MUST be backed up by post analysis. Before you post the clue analysis too. The reason for this, is that clues will most likely point to all kills. this means that some of the clues are going to point to vigs, some will point to third parties, and the others will point to mafia. Accidentally outing a vig because you solved the clues about them is bad. So, if you think someone's attached to a clue, go back and re-read their posts. If you think they look scummy, then post an analysis that contains the clue analysis. If you think they're town, just hold onto your analysis. Clue-analysis should always be used to supplement an actual behavioural analysis. It should never be the main point for calling someone scummy. In other words: Clues pointing towards a person does not equal scum. Third PartiesLooking at the third parties, here's what we want: -We want Joker to die. -We want Batman to kill Joker. -This means that Batman wins, and should hopefully be removed from the game, also removing Ra’as Al Ghul who can no longer achieve his victory condition. This is the optimal way the third party part of the game will go. We want Batman to kill Joker before Ra'as can kill Batman, so that we don't have to deal with Joker ourselves. So, if you think someone's acting like an SK, don't be afraid to point it out, as this should help Batman achieve his win-con, and let us get on with the rest of the game. If Joker is lynched, is Batman removed from the game?
If Batman is removed from the game, is Ra'as removed from the game?Thoughts? Disagreements? Let's get this rolling. You will see a post like that at the start of every game, In fact it's pretty much one of the easiest ways to gain townie points as the post is pretty much common sense followed with some "weak" policies. Notice how wiggles keeps mentioning the third parties? + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:58 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 10:37 deconduo wrote:
I agree that Batman killing the Joker is the ideal situation. However I would regard all 3rd party, including Batman, as anti-town. They constitute 3 extra KP each night which results in a faster lylo and less DT checks and clues. If we catch one they should be lynched. None of this 'Keep me alive and I'll help town' crap.
Given the size of the game and the heavy activity requirement there will be a lot of reading to do. There will certainly be people attempting to just pass with the bare minimum of posts. These people should be scrutinised intensly, and lynched if any clues point towards them. Mhmm, if we catch them, we should lynch them. However, how can we catch them? The only ways I can see, are through just behavioural analysis, and also clue analysis. That's why I say, that if someone is acting like an SK, we might as well lynch them. However, SKs normally act like lurkers, or are scummy, from my experience. So, that means the batman should be shooting into lurkers and scummy people. On the flip-side though, Ra'al is going to be shooting into pro-town players, as Batman wants to try to look like a green, most likely. The priority is: joker>batman>ra'al Because killing up the chain, removes the players below. So, I guess you're right, that we should always kill third-parties, to remove their KP. However, the priority should be on the joker, as he will most likely appear scummiest, and also his death removes all third parties. The constant talk of game mechanics makes it seem like he is pro town when he is pretty much posting fluff at this point he just seems to want to enter lylo later when he has established himself as a town player. Shall we go into his other posts about game mechanics? + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 11:01 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 10:57 redFF wrote:
If you clue analyse backing it up with some other form of analysis or evidence can help, but isn't necessary. If you see a clue don't be afraid to point it out.
Unless its like, x is a detective, then don't point it out lol. On the whole I think relying on clue analysis is pretty terrible though so i won't be basing any of my voting around some vague clue which could be pointing to 10 different people. Clue analysis can be strong, and also, newer players are sometimes easily swayed by it, because it seems like an "objective" form of scum-hunting. I'm saying, before pointing out any clues, look at the person who was killed, and the posting history of the player you think the clue is pointing to. For example, if they killed a mafia, and look super pro-town, what would be the possible benefits of pointing it out? However, if someone killed town, and look scummy, then make an actual analysis and then attach the perceived clue to it. No one should be lynched only on clues, and clues shouldn't just be looked at in a vacuum. On July 18 2011 11:06 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:02 CreamyButter wrote:Maybe it's because I only have 35 posts, but 5 posts a day seems like a hell of a lot, and I'm predicting a ton of spam/filler posts just to hit the minimum (I'm kind of freaking out about getting modkilled if I forget one evening lol). Maybe we should tag our posts like /analysis or /filler? Since I feel like if people are all forced to make 5 posts a day, there might be a lot of red herrings from tired townies who just want the day to end, and this way we can sort of manually adjust the posting minimum to like 3 "real" posts a day. Or 8 or whatever. @Curu Give me a sec to think about it. From what I understand the mafia just sort of chill, analyze/snipe blues, give confusing/chaos-inspiring analysis, and attempt to plant themselves into town circles. Not sure if there are any strategies that would be particular to this game yet, but will totally get back to you on that. Also I'm sure this is unintentional, but just to make sure, There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's a minimum, not a limit, right? Yeah, it's a minimum, I just used the word limit for some reason =/ If you are being active and playing the game, you shouldn't really have any problem making the 5 post minimum. For example, you already made 2 decent posts, and still have almost 70 hours to make the other three to avoid mod-kill. Also, filler should mostly be avoided if possible, as there are always other things to post besides useless stuff. For example, you can comment on other people's analysis, on the voting patterns or bandwagons that are going to appear, on how people are acting or trying to manipulate town, etc. There's lots to talk about. :p On July 18 2011 11:06 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:03 deconduo wrote:On July 18 2011 11:00 redFF wrote:
And regarding blacks I feel it is best to ignore them. Usually I don't really like lynching blacks, but since they all have 1kp a night and will be shooting into town I say if we find them we should be lynching them.
Im going to be treating all the black roles as serial killers. I disagree about ignoring them. Effort should definitely be made in finding and lynching them, especially the Joker and/or Batman. Agreed. Together the third party hold the same amount of KP as the entire mafia, and based on probability, are more like to kill town than mafia too. On July 18 2011 11:49 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:41 Curu wrote:
Just a lovely note to our lovely DTs out there:
Never check a man who is a very likely lynch. If you find a guilty, well he's getting killed anyways. If you find an innocent, then you shouldn't be outing yourself to save him anyways unless there are very few players left in the game. The Godfather/third parties also give innocent checks.
To our lovely Vigilantes:
Likewise, if someone is declared a policy lynch or something of that nature, it is far better to have our Vigilantes shoot them instead. The lynch process gives us no information when reds can easily bandwagon lynch someone. Remember that the lynch is a process for finding information and connections as well, not just a simple kill. Also, to add on to advice for DTs, especially as there are a lot of newer players present, always try to form a case around a player based on analysis if you get a guilty check. Do not just claim. Claiming early is never a good thing, as a 1-1 trade with mafia benefits them more than town. On July 18 2011 11:57 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:51 Zona wrote:
^
Well, a "1-1 trade" benefits town a TON more than the mafia, if the town is vanilla. But a DT trade for a mafia is a poor one. Oops, I might have screwed up the logic, haha. Been playing scum for too long. O.o Green for mafia is an awesome trade, as we outnumber the mafia. 1-1 with a DT isn't great early on, especially depending on who the scum is. For example, if you checked random lurker A and they returned red, try to get them shot or lynched, don't claim. Trading a DT for a red lurker isn't a very good trade, when we can get additional use out of the DT. Use your discretion, but I think making a push for a lynch based on analysis should be the first step taken, before any kind of claim. So essentially most of his posts are either about, The third parties or how to deal with clues. He has actually done little scum hunting which is a typical trait of his scum play. In my opinion Wiggles is trying very hard to not look like his regular scum meta by "Appearing" to put in effort but with the little scum hunting / FoSing from him he seems to have just concentrated on the mechanics side of the game (Basically fluff) and promote his "Town atmosphere" the best way he can. FoS on Wiggles ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles
I'm gonna address the case against me pretty quickly, but basically I'm being accused of talking about game mechanics for the first two hours of the game, and not scumhunting. (Game started 10KST, last quoted post at 11:57KST). This accusation is true, but shouldn't mark me as scummy, given that it's pretty hard to scum hunt in the first two hours of the game, as most people have yet to post, or have very few posts. Mechanics are just a starting point to get people talking at the beginning of the game, as there is very little else to talk about. Scumhunting begins from there.
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Because I want to know if he actually has a legitimate reason to vote for me (Town behavior) or if he's just trying to chainsaw for his scumbuddy (Mafia behavior). Based on his no response and completely ignoring analyzing supersoft I'm pretty sure now it's the latter. He would be pushing much harder for me if he actually believed I was scum and is only attacking me to draw attention off his friend.
On July 19 2011 01:40 Lucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 00:34 Curu wrote:
I'm trying to get gtrsrs to play in a Pro-Town manner because I think he actually is Town. You want him to just go away?
Why do you think someone who isn't playing in a pro-town manner is town?
Not everyone can be a perfect player and from what I've seen of gtrsrs, this falls right in line with his normal crass Town play. I want him to change that. If he doesn't then we can address him but at the moment there are far scummier people to be focused on.
If anyone else has any doubts in their mind about the validity of a supersoft lynch, let me direct you to this gem by ketomi:
Right now I'm feeling supersoft. He bandwagoned a pretty bad vote and didn't give much analysis. From a previous game, he played similarly as mafia. He just pretty much finds the easiest vote that doesn't affect mafia and then tries to stay out of the way and lurk/posts generic agreements and contentless posts. He only starts posting significantly when he defends himself and even then sticks to generic statements. I find his lack of contributions coupled with the bandwagon vote to be suspicious.
Pretty funny that that was exactly what happened.
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Amg caught up to page 27. So tired now. Some thoughts:
First of all, what's with all the mass one liner spam? kenpachi, redFF, Coag etc (Can't recall the other names right now, but can't be arsed to reread all that shit right this moment D: ). All of these are at the top of my suspect list so far.
Wrt VT claims. What's the big deal? Mig in particular is harping on about it pretty aggressively. His A,B,C analysis contains massive flaws too. (I can expand on these if needed, but don't think it necessary) The fact is that everyone in the game is implicitly saying that they're VT (At least for Day 1). Blues are trying to come across as VT. Scum are trying to come across as VT. 3rd parties are doing the same damn thing. VTs too! Claiming VT is an absolute null-tell in my opinion. Whether you write it out or not is irrelevant. The fact that mig is going after them so much is a little worrying to me. I'm not sure if it's just bad logic on his part or scum painting at this point. (Strangely though, it seems as if this whole forum accepts it as being a scum tell?)
Lastly, supersoft is almost asking to be lynched. I have no problem with his VT claim, but rather the way he reacted to being told he's acting scummy. I don't have much more to add at the moment that hasn't already been said about supersoft.
Interesting post? Won't vote for someone simply because he wants a PM buddy? Woah there. Also relates to my previous 2 paragraphs.
As for the Coag list: Don't see why it was scummy. Personally (as a newb) it gave me some info on who the vets are (assuming the list was accurate). I'll be sure to hold them to a higher standard 
Not convinced that anyone is scum yet, so no vote.
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On July 18 2011 16:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 12:33 Coagulation wrote:
Heres the list of newbs and vets in the game.
1. snotboogie Newb
2. Deconduo Vet
3. Kurumi NEWB LOL
4. curu Newb
5. RebirthofLegend Vet
6. Amber[LighT] Vet
7. hiro protagonist Newb
8. nisani201 Newb
9. Pyo Newb
10.Drazerk Newb
11. supersoft Newb
12. Jackal58 LOL
13. Mr. Wiggles Vet
14. prplhz Newb
15. mig Newb
16. notasmurf Newb
17. kenpachi LOL
18. Syllogism Newb
19. Palmar Newb
20. Sevryn Newb
21. ghrur Vet
22. Varysthespider Newb
23. node Vet
24, coagulation Vet
25. kavdragon Vet
26. Lucidity Newb
27. ketomai Newb
28. creamybutter Newb
29. redff Vet
30. youngminii Vet
31. liquid`nazgul Newb
32. Shraft Newb
33. cjrninja Newb
34. visceraeyes Newb
35. theawesomeall Newb
36. eternalmisfit Newb
37. zona Vet
38. gtrsrs Newb
39. ribboo Newb
40. sinani206 Newb
This list was pointless and all it served to do was belittle and intimidate the newer players from posting. To that end, what is your agenda? The only objective this post served was to discourage newer players from posting which helps mafia force sheeping, which in a game this size is a considerable problem. To this end, I am voting for you. ##Vote Coagulation
My agenda - keep town derp meter at optimal low levels
My objective - provide town with requested information before scummy fuckers get a chance to manipulate the information.
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On July 19 2011 01:55 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 00:58 Nisani201 wrote:
Before I read through the thread, Sinani206 has told me that he needs to be replaced. For administrative purposes I need him to do the one posting to be subbed our, or pm me please. I will look for a replacement while waiting, but cannot actually sub him out until he specifically asks.
He is in a position where either he has either no computer or has no internet connection. That is why I'm telling you and not himself. He sent me a text message.
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I do not find Coag's list to be scummy. I think people just have a problem with lists in general, which I only half understand...but that list in particular was requested and accurate (as far as I can tell). I don't see how posting an accurate list that was requested is scummy.
My 2 cents.
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no one talking about the lists anymore, what do you think about supersoft and redFF and Pyo?
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On July 19 2011 02:16 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 21:13 Drazerk wrote:Time to actually go to work I guess. Let's start with our always scum fellow Mr. Wiggles shall we? Now we could say wiggles has a track record of being scum but the problem is his scum play has been pretty bland, In fact in RTM / WaW2 we was able to pick him out as scum just because of how little effort he puts in when being scum. Now when I read the thread this morning I was pretty much blown away by how much effort he was putting in, Its almost as if he did a 180 and is trying his best to not follow his scum meta by promoting a pro town atmosphere. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Ok, so let's get this started! First things first, let's lay out some things we want to achieve, and some guidelines. A pro-town atmosphereThis normally goes without saying, but it often bears repeating. If we want to catch scum, we need to have the proper environment for scum hunting and for communicating with each other. This means a couple things: - Promoting scum hunting.
- Not having pointless arguments
- Actively contributing
- All that jazz
Basically, we want to keep the thread as clean as possible, because chaos best serves mafia, not town. If you really don't know what to do, there's town guides. I'm not going to write one here, because I'm too lazy, and don't consider myself experienced enough to try. However, I am going to go through the three points above, as I think they are very important. We always want people to scum-hunt. There's never an excuse not to scum-hunt; everyone can do it. This provides us with many benefits. First, it's the primary method for actually finding scum. It also means that people have to give their actual thoughts, and have to come up with things beyond "I agree". This gives us information, and information is good. It lets us know what you're thinking, and it puts pressure on mafia to have to contribute. Also, forcing mafia to scum-hunt means that there's a good chance of catching them just based on their analysis, because it's hard to find people who are scummy, when you know they aren't scum. Next, we want to avoid bickering. This goes hand in hand with keeping the thread clean. This is different from actually debating with people, and you should be able to tell the difference between rationality, and NO U. If anyone is having a pointless argument, they will be asked to stop. It doesn't help town, only mafia. Lastly, we want people to contribute. There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's easy for mafia to hide amongst lurkers, and beyond that, lurkers are nearly impossible to analyze. So, contribute. This doesn't mean make tons of pointless one-liners, it means providing actual thoughts, analysis, and content. You can do it, I believe in you. And if you don't, we can always just ask a vig to shoot you. We don't want people to lurk. CluesThere's clues in this game. However, all clue analysis MUST MUST MUST be backed up by post analysis. Before you post the clue analysis too. The reason for this, is that clues will most likely point to all kills. this means that some of the clues are going to point to vigs, some will point to third parties, and the others will point to mafia. Accidentally outing a vig because you solved the clues about them is bad. So, if you think someone's attached to a clue, go back and re-read their posts. If you think they look scummy, then post an analysis that contains the clue analysis. If you think they're town, just hold onto your analysis. Clue-analysis should always be used to supplement an actual behavioural analysis. It should never be the main point for calling someone scummy. In other words: Clues pointing towards a person does not equal scum. Third PartiesLooking at the third parties, here's what we want: -We want Joker to die. -We want Batman to kill Joker. -This means that Batman wins, and should hopefully be removed from the game, also removing Ra’as Al Ghul who can no longer achieve his victory condition. This is the optimal way the third party part of the game will go. We want Batman to kill Joker before Ra'as can kill Batman, so that we don't have to deal with Joker ourselves. So, if you think someone's acting like an SK, don't be afraid to point it out, as this should help Batman achieve his win-con, and let us get on with the rest of the game. If Joker is lynched, is Batman removed from the game?
If Batman is removed from the game, is Ra'as removed from the game?Thoughts? Disagreements? Let's get this rolling. You will see a post like that at the start of every game, In fact it's pretty much one of the easiest ways to gain townie points as the post is pretty much common sense followed with some "weak" policies. Notice how wiggles keeps mentioning the third parties? + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:58 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 10:37 deconduo wrote:
I agree that Batman killing the Joker is the ideal situation. However I would regard all 3rd party, including Batman, as anti-town. They constitute 3 extra KP each night which results in a faster lylo and less DT checks and clues. If we catch one they should be lynched. None of this 'Keep me alive and I'll help town' crap.
Given the size of the game and the heavy activity requirement there will be a lot of reading to do. There will certainly be people attempting to just pass with the bare minimum of posts. These people should be scrutinised intensly, and lynched if any clues point towards them. Mhmm, if we catch them, we should lynch them. However, how can we catch them? The only ways I can see, are through just behavioural analysis, and also clue analysis. That's why I say, that if someone is acting like an SK, we might as well lynch them. However, SKs normally act like lurkers, or are scummy, from my experience. So, that means the batman should be shooting into lurkers and scummy people. On the flip-side though, Ra'al is going to be shooting into pro-town players, as Batman wants to try to look like a green, most likely. The priority is: joker>batman>ra'al Because killing up the chain, removes the players below. So, I guess you're right, that we should always kill third-parties, to remove their KP. However, the priority should be on the joker, as he will most likely appear scummiest, and also his death removes all third parties. The constant talk of game mechanics makes it seem like he is pro town when he is pretty much posting fluff at this point he just seems to want to enter lylo later when he has established himself as a town player. Shall we go into his other posts about game mechanics? + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 11:01 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 10:57 redFF wrote:
If you clue analyse backing it up with some other form of analysis or evidence can help, but isn't necessary. If you see a clue don't be afraid to point it out.
Unless its like, x is a detective, then don't point it out lol. On the whole I think relying on clue analysis is pretty terrible though so i won't be basing any of my voting around some vague clue which could be pointing to 10 different people. Clue analysis can be strong, and also, newer players are sometimes easily swayed by it, because it seems like an "objective" form of scum-hunting. I'm saying, before pointing out any clues, look at the person who was killed, and the posting history of the player you think the clue is pointing to. For example, if they killed a mafia, and look super pro-town, what would be the possible benefits of pointing it out? However, if someone killed town, and look scummy, then make an actual analysis and then attach the perceived clue to it. No one should be lynched only on clues, and clues shouldn't just be looked at in a vacuum. On July 18 2011 11:06 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:02 CreamyButter wrote:Maybe it's because I only have 35 posts, but 5 posts a day seems like a hell of a lot, and I'm predicting a ton of spam/filler posts just to hit the minimum (I'm kind of freaking out about getting modkilled if I forget one evening lol). Maybe we should tag our posts like /analysis or /filler? Since I feel like if people are all forced to make 5 posts a day, there might be a lot of red herrings from tired townies who just want the day to end, and this way we can sort of manually adjust the posting minimum to like 3 "real" posts a day. Or 8 or whatever. @Curu Give me a sec to think about it. From what I understand the mafia just sort of chill, analyze/snipe blues, give confusing/chaos-inspiring analysis, and attempt to plant themselves into town circles. Not sure if there are any strategies that would be particular to this game yet, but will totally get back to you on that. Also I'm sure this is unintentional, but just to make sure, There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's a minimum, not a limit, right? Yeah, it's a minimum, I just used the word limit for some reason =/ If you are being active and playing the game, you shouldn't really have any problem making the 5 post minimum. For example, you already made 2 decent posts, and still have almost 70 hours to make the other three to avoid mod-kill. Also, filler should mostly be avoided if possible, as there are always other things to post besides useless stuff. For example, you can comment on other people's analysis, on the voting patterns or bandwagons that are going to appear, on how people are acting or trying to manipulate town, etc. There's lots to talk about. :p On July 18 2011 11:06 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:03 deconduo wrote:On July 18 2011 11:00 redFF wrote:
And regarding blacks I feel it is best to ignore them. Usually I don't really like lynching blacks, but since they all have 1kp a night and will be shooting into town I say if we find them we should be lynching them.
Im going to be treating all the black roles as serial killers. I disagree about ignoring them. Effort should definitely be made in finding and lynching them, especially the Joker and/or Batman. Agreed. Together the third party hold the same amount of KP as the entire mafia, and based on probability, are more like to kill town than mafia too. On July 18 2011 11:49 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:41 Curu wrote:
Just a lovely note to our lovely DTs out there:
Never check a man who is a very likely lynch. If you find a guilty, well he's getting killed anyways. If you find an innocent, then you shouldn't be outing yourself to save him anyways unless there are very few players left in the game. The Godfather/third parties also give innocent checks.
To our lovely Vigilantes:
Likewise, if someone is declared a policy lynch or something of that nature, it is far better to have our Vigilantes shoot them instead. The lynch process gives us no information when reds can easily bandwagon lynch someone. Remember that the lynch is a process for finding information and connections as well, not just a simple kill. Also, to add on to advice for DTs, especially as there are a lot of newer players present, always try to form a case around a player based on analysis if you get a guilty check. Do not just claim. Claiming early is never a good thing, as a 1-1 trade with mafia benefits them more than town. On July 18 2011 11:57 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:51 Zona wrote:
^
Well, a "1-1 trade" benefits town a TON more than the mafia, if the town is vanilla. But a DT trade for a mafia is a poor one. Oops, I might have screwed up the logic, haha. Been playing scum for too long. O.o Green for mafia is an awesome trade, as we outnumber the mafia. 1-1 with a DT isn't great early on, especially depending on who the scum is. For example, if you checked random lurker A and they returned red, try to get them shot or lynched, don't claim. Trading a DT for a red lurker isn't a very good trade, when we can get additional use out of the DT. Use your discretion, but I think making a push for a lynch based on analysis should be the first step taken, before any kind of claim. So essentially most of his posts are either about, The third parties or how to deal with clues. He has actually done little scum hunting which is a typical trait of his scum play. In my opinion Wiggles is trying very hard to not look like his regular scum meta by "Appearing" to put in effort but with the little scum hunting / FoSing from him he seems to have just concentrated on the mechanics side of the game (Basically fluff) and promote his "Town atmosphere" the best way he can. FoS on Wiggles ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles I'm gonna address the case against me pretty quickly, but basically I'm being accused of talking about game mechanics for the first two hours of the game, and not scumhunting. (Game started 10KST, last quoted post at 11:57KST). This accusation is true, but shouldn't mark me as scummy, given that it's pretty hard to scum hunt in the first two hours of the game, as most people have yet to post, or have very few posts. Mechanics are just a starting point to get people talking at the beginning of the game, as there is very little else to talk about. Scumhunting begins from there.
Hi.
I would much rather have you actually scumhunt than just defending yourself, no one was going to lynch you so defending against that post was useless anyway, you can however be of use to town if you actually try to achieve something.
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On July 18 2011 22:34 ketomai wrote:
Right now I'm feeling supersoft. He bandwagoned a pretty bad vote and didn't give much analysis. From a previous game, he played similarly as mafia. He just pretty much finds the easiest vote that doesn't affect mafia and then tries to stay out of the way and lurk/posts generic agreements and contentless posts. He only starts posting significantly when he defends himself and even then sticks to generic statements.
I thought about this while I was away. I never played with you before and I never read anything of you before. Did anyone in your mafia-quicktopic post that about me?
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supersoft, who are your other pm buddies?
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i already told you: mig and curu.
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On July 19 2011 03:38 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 22:34 ketomai wrote:
Right now I'm feeling supersoft. He bandwagoned a pretty bad vote and didn't give much analysis. From a previous game, he played similarly as mafia. He just pretty much finds the easiest vote that doesn't affect mafia and then tries to stay out of the way and lurk/posts generic agreements and contentless posts. He only starts posting significantly when he defends himself and even then sticks to generic statements.
I thought about this while I was away. I never played with you before and I never read anything of you before. Did anyone in your mafia-quicktopic post that about me?
Interesting. This does appear to be the only game he's played with this name.What's your smurf name ketomai?
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Curu, since your vote is on Supersoft, why are you pm'ing someone you think is mafia?
Also why vote Ketomai supersoft? Just an OMGUS?
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FoS on Lucidity
Only two posts with content so far.
+ Show Spoiler +LinkOn July 19 2011 01:32 Lucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:42 ketomai wrote:
In my opinion you shouldn't dig around too much into clues unless you have some specific reason to do so. Having everyone being accused a few times because of how clues are twisted will create confusion/chaos, which is never good. I don't really agree with this. Although we can all agree that chaos isn't good for town, you need to look at the possible benefits that the chaos can bring too. In this case, accusing some people a few times to see how they react can give us valuable information - freudian slips, overly defensive scum etc. The chaos should also be minimal if you think about it and only last a few posts. We'll get our info and move on. I think the net result is positive for town. I'm by no means an experienced player - I've only been in about 10 games and I've hosted 2 - but that's been my experience. Pressuring players usually benefits town more. Which brings me to my next point. I think we should be careful of looking at everything in black and white. "Chaos is bad" as above. Each case should be evaluated on its own merits. Policy lynches for example. While it is true that scum try to give away as little information as possible, "Lynch All Lurkers" doesn't really make sense. Every scum player knows that this policy lynch exists and thus they don't lurk. The only people you'll end up lynching with this strategy are bad/lazy/inactive players. That is, bad town or bad scum. Seeing that there are more town than scum players, you're more likely to be lynching a townie t_t Now I'm not saying lurkers should be ignored, but they shouldn't be lynched outright. I've personally been in a game where we won the game on the last day thanks to a lurker who became very active O: Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 13:14 Pyo wrote:On July 18 2011 10:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, so let's get this started! First things first, let's lay out some things we want to achieve, and some guidelines. A pro-town atmosphereThis normally goes without saying, but it often bears repeating. If we want to catch scum, we need to have the proper environment for scum hunting and for communicating with each other. This means a couple things: - Promoting scum hunting.
- Not having pointless arguments
- Actively contributing
- All that jazz
Basically, we want to keep the thread as clean as possible, because chaos best serves mafia, not town. If you really don't know what to do, there's town guides. I'm not going to write one here, because I'm too lazy, and don't consider myself experienced enough to try. However, I am going to go through the three points above, as I think they are very important. We always want people to scum-hunt. There's never an excuse not to scum-hunt; everyone can do it. This provides us with many benefits. First, it's the primary method for actually finding scum. It also means that people have to give their actual thoughts, and have to come up with things beyond "I agree". This gives us information, and information is good. It lets us know what you're thinking, and it puts pressure on mafia to have to contribute. Also, forcing mafia to scum-hunt means that there's a good chance of catching them just based on their analysis, because it's hard to find people who are scummy, when you know they aren't scum. Next, we want to avoid bickering. This goes hand in hand with keeping the thread clean. This is different from actually debating with people, and you should be able to tell the difference between rationality, and NO U. If anyone is having a pointless argument, they will be asked to stop. It doesn't help town, only mafia. Lastly, we want people to contribute. There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's easy for mafia to hide amongst lurkers, and beyond that, lurkers are nearly impossible to analyze. So, contribute. This doesn't mean make tons of pointless one-liners, it means providing actual thoughts, analysis, and content. You can do it, I believe in you. And if you don't, we can always just ask a vig to shoot you. We don't want people to lurk. CluesThere's clues in this game. However, all clue analysis MUST MUST MUST be backed up by post analysis. Before you post the clue analysis too. The reason for this, is that clues will most likely point to all kills. this means that some of the clues are going to point to vigs, some will point to third parties, and the others will point to mafia. Accidentally outing a vig because you solved the clues about them is bad. So, if you think someone's attached to a clue, go back and re-read their posts. If you think they look scummy, then post an analysis that contains the clue analysis. If you think they're town, just hold onto your analysis. Clue-analysis should always be used to supplement an actual behavioural analysis. It should never be the main point for calling someone scummy. In other words: Clues pointing towards a person does not equal scum. Third PartiesLooking at the third parties, here's what we want: -We want Joker to die. -We want Batman to kill Joker. -This means that Batman wins, and should hopefully be removed from the game, also removing Ra’as Al Ghul who can no longer achieve his victory condition. This is the optimal way the third party part of the game will go. We want Batman to kill Joker before Ra'as can kill Batman, so that we don't have to deal with Joker ourselves. So, if you think someone's acting like an SK, don't be afraid to point it out, as this should help Batman achieve his win-con, and let us get on with the rest of the game. If Joker is lynched, is Batman removed from the game?
If Batman is removed from the game, is Ra'as removed from the game?Thoughts? Disagreements? Let's get this rolling. On July 18 2011 12:39 CreamyButter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:37 Curu wrote:
CreamyButter, a question for you if I may. Taking the setup into consideration, how would you propose to play as Mafia this game if you were indeed to receive such a role? Ummm. Well. First order of business is of course ensuring that all mafia members are actively contributing to the thread. For the newer players, I might consider giving them a talking point, or else assigning one mafia to make an inconsequential "slip" in the thread, so that the less experienced mafia members can analyze properly without feeling guilty and without actually slipping up. I would pick the newest players and make sure they know what they're doing, basically, and if not I would help them compose their posts before they post them. After all mafia members are actively posting, I would try to shift the demographic being targeted in the thread to something less dangerous, such as lynching all lurkers. Also, since there seems to be a zodiac/veteran list going up, I would make sure to elect a figurehead boss, so that the boss doesn't end up on the list. From there, use PMs to harass/poke people and figure out what roles they have/infiltrate their circles >.> Avoid hitting vets, figure out where the hatter's bombs are before killing them, hit medics, boring stuff etc. I would be actively PMing, to make sure the town doesn't get up to anything worthwhile. Possibly coordinate PMs with other mafia members. A priority is reaching out to the insane inmates, and integrating them into the mafia circle. With no rolechecker, though, I'm not sure how mafia would do this. I guess they would get the DT to check on someone who isn't in the known mafia circle, and if the DT claims that he's seeing red, then the guy being checked is probably insane because no 3rd party would set themselves as red. For this reason I might consider not killing DTs right away as long as he's being properly manipulated. Batman is useless because he can't claim and he can't reveal his findings, though. From what I can tell, it is in mafia's best interest to get the 3rd parties lynched. The 3rd parties might randomly kill a mafia member at night, and might eat up night hits, and it is impossible to cooperate with them since they can't claim. I guess I would just leave random hints everywhere that someone (someone who isn't mafia) is Batman and hope he dies. As a 3rd party player: It seems to be in Joker's best interest for the game to end as quickly as possible, so he would keep mafia alive at first, so that their KP is higher. Batman and Ra'as, on the other hand, want to keep the game running longer, so that they have time to hunt. As Batman I would default to rolechecking, and killing only when either confirmed or if one side seems like it's winning. As Ra'as I would target lurkers/useless seeming people until I get a read. There seems to be enough vigilante advice, so maybe it's time to stop with that. As for DT advice though, On July 18 2011 11:32 notasmurf wrote:
It's not who the veteran players are that we should be concerned about. It's who the new players are.
These are the people that we should focus our DT check on, and take a closer look during scumhunting.
By no means am I saying we should lynch new players instead of old ones. Obviously we need to lynch the best person possible. But what I'm saying is that they tend to get overlooked.
I agree that DTs should check the newer, more easy ignorable players, instead of the vets. Since as a DT you can only trust a red reading, there's no way to try and build a circle around yourself. It would also be much easier to get a newer, inactive, partially illiterate player lynched than an old one. So check people that you think yourself capable of actually getting lynched i guess. I have to study/class, will be back later today. I don't really know how to give/identify good analysis, but I'm fully open to being tested/asked stupid questions to see if I screw up, so feel free to send me PMs. I might be a "newb" but from my limited experience, pretty much every time someone comes out with one of these massive long policy spam posts, they've been scum. Just sayin' Haha, so true Oo It's almost as if scum try too hard to appear pro-town by posting generic guides. Care to comment CreamyButter? Only on page 20, but posting so long.
A post full of nothing. Talking about how to play the game in very general terms "some chaos is good if done right", "lurkers might be town". Neglects that Mr. Wiggles kinda wrote that post in the beginning when there was absolutely nothing else to talk about, and that CreamyButter was responding to a question directed at him, and wasn't even posting "town guide". No original content, and also somewhat self contradictory in that he complains about town guides yet his post contains a lot about what is/might be/may just happen to prove useful to town in some scenarios, in very vague terms.
+ Show Spoiler +LinkOn July 19 2011 03:00 Lucidity wrote:Amg caught up to page 27. So tired now. Some thoughts: First of all, what's with all the mass one liner spam? kenpachi, redFF, Coag etc (Can't recall the other names right now, but can't be arsed to reread all that shit right this moment D: ). All of these are at the top of my suspect list so far. Wrt VT claims. What's the big deal? Mig in particular is harping on about it pretty aggressively. His A,B,C analysis contains massive flaws too. (I can expand on these if needed, but don't think it necessary) The fact is that everyone in the game is implicitly saying that they're VT (At least for Day 1). Blues are trying to come across as VT. Scum are trying to come across as VT. 3rd parties are doing the same damn thing. VTs too! Claiming VT is an absolute null-tell in my opinion. Whether you write it out or not is irrelevant. The fact that mig is going after them so much is a little worrying to me. I'm not sure if it's just bad logic on his part or scum painting at this point. (Strangely though, it seems as if this whole forum accepts it as being a scum tell?) Lastly, supersoft is almost asking to be lynched. I have no problem with his VT claim, but rather the way he reacted to being told he's acting scummy. I don't have much more to add at the moment that hasn't already been said about supersoft. Interesting post? Won't vote for someone simply because he wants a PM buddy? Woah there. Also relates to my previous 2 paragraphs. As for the Coag list: Don't see why it was scummy. Personally (as a newb) it gave me some info on who the vets are (assuming the list was accurate). I'll be sure to hold them to a higher standard Not convinced that anyone is scum yet, so no vote.
Complaining about one-liner posters that's already been complained about. Huge rant about how it doesn't matter if people spam the thread up with VT claims while he knows that VT claims are useless. If they're useless then why do you think it's okay for people to spam the thread with them? Semi-jumps on the biggest bandwagon in this game but does not provide any original content or reasons at all.
Overall he's also playing noob cards.
So, Lucidity, who, besides supersoft, would you throw your vote at if you had to vote right now?
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On July 19 2011 03:42 supersoft wrote:
i already told you: mig and curu.
Why did you lie about being caught up in the PM game?
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On July 19 2011 03:46 redFF wrote:
Curu, since your vote is on Supersoft, why are you pm'ing someone you think is mafia?
Also why vote Ketomai supersoft? Just an OMGUS?
I asked him who his PM buddies were to see if he would reveal his scumbuddies.
He says he's active in PM land.
He is clearly not active in PM land.
If he can convince someone that he IS active in PM land and they confirm it, that's his scumbuddy.
He wasn't dumb enough to fall for the trap. But apparently he didn't need to, you outed yourself as his scumbuddy already.
I have not PMed him besides asking him why he is claiming VT to which he gave me the same BS answer that was already posted in this thread.
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I'm unvoting coagulation, but I'm going to keep my eye on him.
##Vote supersoft
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To whoever was asking for the node graph, I'm sorry but I'm not going to do that. I'm making a node graph for myself only. Not only does it have the potential to help Mafia a lot, but it would mess up my metagame if I kept posting one each game.
If you'd like to make your own, you can simply download Freemind for free on any platform. It's pretty easy to use.
Supersoft has far too many scumtells to be ignored; however if he flips green then I would seriously consider lynching Curu D2, as he started the bandwagon.
Some other people that I would consider for D2 would be Mig, who requested the Vet list. People who post lists are good targets for bandwagons, and Coag fell into it. RoL started the bandwagon against Coag and hasn't said anything since.
I'll talk to BC in PM's about the Sinani206 situation, it's not worth spamming up the thread with that.
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Oh, and ##Vote: supersoft
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EPT
