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On July 15 2011 23:57 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 22:05 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 21:58 Utinni wrote: How many females get to actually play against each other tournaments? Prolly very few if any... I don't get why all you guys are getting butt hurt at restrictions on tournaments.
It's a game, its for entertainment value.
People will watch, People will tell their friends... any publicity is good publicity...
These threads are so over done and pointless except to make nerds huff and puff.
Learn to enjoy the the content you are given or make your own tourney and make sure to invite calvin and hobbes. You're missing the point. Nobody complains about female only tournaments. It's not like i'm offended by it or anything, but i ask myself, why there is even a need for those tournaments? In my opinion it is implying that women can't compete with their male counterparts. Now i don't think that's the case, so why would they want to exclude themselfs from their male opponents? I just want to know why, i don't want them to get rid of those tournaments but if you ask me, there's no need for it. Oh I absolutely think there's a need. For no other reason except for girls getting together for some competitive fun. Girl's night out? Guy's poker? (Mind you mixed poker is still better.) Point is, do females need to justify the need to play the game together? Oh, and people most certainly complain about female tournaments. Loudly and often. As often as a new thread announcing said female tournament. Which brings me to another point that I had at one point considered turning into a stand-alone thread. Maybe everyone's right. Maybe girl's shouldn't have their own league, maybe Anna has contributed nothing to esports, maybe CheekyDuck should never have been interviewed, maybe kellymilkies should never have done the FHM photoshoot (can you think of any other recent controversies? I'm sure there was something about lil-susie), oh. and maybe Tossgirl looks like a man... Maybe that's all true, but sometimes I wish people would spend more time being welcoming and less time being right. Everyone is so concerned about being right. Particularly that girl's never receive more attention than is their due, that if a girl dare raise their hand to identify that, yes they are female and they would like to contribute to Starcraft in whatever way they can (or just do some other side projects).... then teh internetz jumps them and strings them up. "How dare anyone even acknowledge you existence until you have macro of Flash, the multi-tasking of Bisu, the knowledge of Artosis, etc, etc." "Go back to the hole you crawled out from" we roar. "And do not return until you are a goddess of gaming." Maybe we're right. But is it worth it? If we truly want to see gender equality, maybe being a little more welcoming would help?
I actually disagree with you. I don't think people have some ridiculous expectations as you say, "How dare anyone even acknowledge you existence until you have macro of Flash, the multi-tasking of Bisu, the knowledge of Artosis, etc, etc."
They merely expect the attention to be equivalent to what level of contribution and skill would be expected of a male counterpart. There are obviously some trolls but most criticism is very valid and is pretty consistent with what would be expected from a male in the same position. Could you give any example of this expectation of every woman being required to be the "Goddess of gaming?" because I don't see it at all.
Rachel gets a lot of praise and support for most of her interviews, and gets criticized when she asks dumb questions from time to time or poke fun at for saying "HasuOrbs" or something silly, just like anyone else would. Anna similarly gets praise and criticism based on the quality of her content. The same is true for most women I can think off, of the top of my head.
I don't think anyone has some ridiculously high expectations, but for some reason when it comes to women, you're either a troll or a white knight. People who screw up are always criticized on TL, people who do something right are almost always praised, because of the volume of posts it can seem overwhelming at times but this view that TL is somehow this huge ball of negativity or hate for any woman who isn't perfect seems silly to me.
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On July 16 2011 00:24 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 23:30 vetinari wrote: Jibba: what do you expect? Men to regard women as other men? That won't happen. Women have the opportunity to play SC2 anonymously, and get good before "coming out", if you will. Everyone has a right to expect courtesy, but respect? Respect must be earned. Why should anyone have to play anonymously and repress their identity? There's an expectation that that's what women should do, but that same expectation doesn't exist for men. Be whoever you are, and own it. NeverGG, I think that's what you're lacking more than anything else. Certainly good looks are a very useful asset (and as with any type of asset, you really shouldn't hold it against people for having it) but if you have a confident and engaging attitude, people will look past that stuff. There's different kinds of respect. The girls aren't looking for respect as players any more than any other non-pro player (and as far as I know, none of them claim to be professionals.) They're asking for respect as human beings, to act like themselves openly and play the game they way they want to (as long as it's within the ToS.) Likewise, you certainly can hate on them for doing it (not in the LR threads, please) but it's no different than going to a Gold-only tournament and telling everyone they suck. At that point you're just being a douche bag.
No one has to play anonymously. However, if you are uncomfortable with being a female in a male dominated area, you have that option. If you have sufficient confidence to be yourself, a yourself that will get plenty of attention due to sheer rarity, then you can do so too. No one is forcing women to wear online burkas, for gods sake. Women online should receive courtesy from men and women. Actually, everyone should be courteous to everyone, online or in real life.
As for respect: you can earn it in many ways, whether it be by displays of skill, virtuous living or achievement, and you can lose it in many ways, by demonstrations of ill-judgement and bad behaviour. But it must be earned. I think the idea that everyone deserves respect for simply being is utterly foolish. It represents the loss of a useful tool for channelling humans to productive and good behaviour.
No one is entitled to respect for simply being, but everyone is entitled to courtesy. The two are different.
edit about your edit: rubbish. Modern western civilization is not qualitatively different. Human nature has not changed.
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Everyone is deserving of equal moral consideration... even if not respect. That means not excluding people or creating places that are exclusionary.
You should also read Jacques Rancière's writings on the subject of equality. Even if everyone is not equal in skill, intellect, etc... the presumption of equality is a beneficial one for society as a whole. Equality is a starting point, not a goal. So long as you can understand beings as equal even if you don't respect them that's fine. If lack of respect is a reason to deny equality then there's a problem.
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On July 16 2011 00:05 Zihua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 19:52 Sablar wrote: Think top 2% of 2 000 000 players, and top 2% of 100 000, who are the best? If anyone has some evidence for a statement like "women think worse" I would really like to see it.
Equally good? But competitive play has nothing to do with the top 2%. That's the Masters League. It has to do with top 0.01%. In almost any field, that is where men outperform women. Men tend to deviate from the average much more than women do. That means there are many more highly talented males than highly talented women and many more horribly bad men than horribly bad women. Look at IQ scores. Men score a few points higher on average, but if you look at scores like 140 or 60, men outnumber women 10 to 1. (not the actual number, but look it up). EDIT: It seems someone has already made this point and got nowhere with the deniers in this thread. The way you try to salvage your argument and get away from this fact is hilarious. There has never been a female Gauss, Ramanujan or Einstein. The closest you get is Emmy Noether, which is not very close at all. There's no cultural drive that makes you as capable as Einstein. There is no reason to assume the male domination of the pro scene will end when women start playing games as much as men. Pro Starcraft will probably, like pro chess and mathematics, be a male thing forever. I don't understand why people want to change things to draw in women. Do we really need them? If they're not interested in e-sports, that's their own problem.
I was kind of arguing on that side, but lets switch it up then.
Men overall are more extreme than women, yes, but that doesn't mean women are inherently worse. I dislike when people are just denying statistics because they are inappropriate, but the logic behind them can still be questioned.
Males tend to reach the extremeties more often than women does yes, but it doesn't mean that 1) this is genetic or inherent to males or 2) that this is the case for SC2. It's not like it goes for everything. 3) The skills required for SC2 are so broad that it's not like 1 single attribute that will mean success. Like IQ will probably correlate with success in SC2, but that doesn't mean you are pro because of a high IQ.
Furthermore the brain is very plastic and we can expect boys growing up with computer games to gain and edge, and also have a different brain structure because that is what training does to the brain. A difference in ability even when evident at a neural level doesn't mean that men are born better at said ability which seems to be a common misunderstanding.
Apart from that it's not like men are better at information processing tasks and reaction times. Women often have a higher mean. I just looked up some studies and found one 7000+ respondant study where women were "slower and more variable" than men in reaction time. Another study had women as faster in some choice related RT
All this said I'm not rejecting the possibility that there is a genetical advantage for males. A generally higher variability in test scores just isn't proof of something like that, see study below for the example with more variability among women in reaction time. You need university access though.
"Age and sex differences in reaction time in adulthood: results from the United Kingdom Health and Lifestyle Survey.Der G, Deary IJ."
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United States22883 Posts
On July 16 2011 00:40 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 10:07 Nothingtosay wrote: It is no secret that like many fields e-sports is currently a male dominated arena. While I would have a hard time believing that the vast majority of people wish for e-sports to remain this way; I believe that the actions of the community don't reflect a desire to inject more females into the culture of e-sports. Several recent events have intrigued me enough to the point that I feel that it would helpful to see what other memebers of the community feel about the matter. Please be aware that I am not personally attacking any individual in this thread especially considering the fact that they are not responsible for the actions of TL. The primary events that sparked this thread where the creation of two fan clubs that personally view as extremely premature . Namely the Lindsey Sporrer fanclub and the slayers_eve fan club. IN all honesty besides being born female what have either of these people done to warrant a fan club at all? The sporrer fanclub has 53 pages in 3 days, the day9 fan club in comparison has 134 pages and has been active for over one year. Do people not realize that the undeserved reverence and vigilant e-staring ( I use staring instead of stalking because I don't believe it has even come close to being appropriate for that term) is one of the reason why women are driven from this industry and other ones like it? If you treat women just like anyone else I guarantee more would be willing to participate in e-sports. The reason why many girls are afraid of even letting people know that they are female online is because of all the fervent attention it will bring upon them. I'm sure that the mmo players among all ave heard the female members of their guild complaining about what happens when people on their server/realm/world w/e you call it figure out that they are female. Another thing I'd like to comment on is female only tournaments such as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230697 . These do nothing but promote the belief that women cannot compete with men in e-sports which to me seems to be nothing but utter ridiculousness. E-sports are for the most part mental activities the physical requirement is not high enough that sexual dimorphism would have any significant effect. If you want more women in esports stop treating them differently. Women if you want to be treated equally then stop voluntarily segregating yourself with things such as female leagues and tournaments. Do you think things like the relatively quick fan clubs are hurting or helping the problem? Girls will never compete with men in terms of physical abilities, no matter if it is about velocity, strength, even psychologically men are usually far ahead in terms of determination and sacrifice. Sexual dimorphism DOES matter and you cannot overcome the process of several million years of evolution with an ideology. In real sports you can see women not doing sports which are not segregated (boxing, judo, speaking of experience), whereas segregated team sports such as soccer, basketball are quite appreciated by them. So segregation is the best way to attract the most girls, but in the end they will always be very few. Evolutionary psychology is bullshit conjecture with an enormous selection bias.
Men are ahead in terms of determination and sacrifice? Do you know how frequent ACL injuries are in women's soccer, yet tons and tons of women try to play through them? Women sacrifice their bodies a lot more than men do in some sports and combined with a higher pain tolerance and their own personal determination leads to a ton of career ending/quality of life effecting injuries, from the middle school level on up.
Rancière, really? Rancière's view on equity within society was terrible. He's like the Mises of post-modern philosophy, although luckily not many people agree with him.
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I find it eternally ironic that minorities desire to be treated equally, but simultaneously act in ways that single themselves out. They'll have X-only gatherings as they develop and maintain their own culture, try to integrate into the existing culture and be shocked when things don't pan out the way they expect.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 16 2011 00:48 vetinari wrote: edit about your edit: rubbish. Modern western civilization is not qualitatively different. Human nature has not changed. Really? Is that why we do things like plan pregnancies or have them for our own pleasure? Do men select women for their hip bearing capacity (keep in mind this is a site with a lot of KPOP fanboys)? And women choose men for their alpha male behavior? Please don't turn this into another PUA bullshit fest.
Not qualitatively different? Do you understand what that means in terms of research? (hint: it doesn't mean anything in your context.)
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On July 16 2011 00:52 sailorferret wrote: Everyone is deserving of equal moral consideration... even if not respect. That means not excluding people or creating places that are exclusionary.
You should also read Jacques Rancière's writings on the subject of equality. Even if everyone is not equal in skill, intellect, etc... the presumption of equality is a beneficial one for society as a whole. Equality is a starting point, not a goal. So long as you can understand beings as equal even if you don't respect them that's fine. If lack of respect is a reason to deny equality then there's a problem.
Really? I'd rather live in a community that excluded rapists and murderers, and looked down upon the rude, the arrogant and the promiscious* (among other negative traits.) It generally tends to be safer, and more pleasant to live in such a place.
As for equality ... /shrug, there is nothing wrong with assuming other people are your equal, until they prove otherwise, with word or deed. People are not equals, though that does not mean that they cannot earn respect, or that they do not deserve courtesy. I do not regard a criminal as an equal, nor do I regard a child born mentally handicapped as an equal. But the child deserves to be treated with kindness, and criminals deserve the opportunity to atone for their crimes.
*You will never convice me that promiscuity is a morally neutral trait, let alone a good. Individual sexual satisfaction does not outweight the harm done to men, women and children and society as a whole.
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On July 16 2011 00:54 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:40 TeWy wrote:On July 15 2011 10:07 Nothingtosay wrote: It is no secret that like many fields e-sports is currently a male dominated arena. While I would have a hard time believing that the vast majority of people wish for e-sports to remain this way; I believe that the actions of the community don't reflect a desire to inject more females into the culture of e-sports. Several recent events have intrigued me enough to the point that I feel that it would helpful to see what other memebers of the community feel about the matter. Please be aware that I am not personally attacking any individual in this thread especially considering the fact that they are not responsible for the actions of TL. The primary events that sparked this thread where the creation of two fan clubs that personally view as extremely premature . Namely the Lindsey Sporrer fanclub and the slayers_eve fan club. IN all honesty besides being born female what have either of these people done to warrant a fan club at all? The sporrer fanclub has 53 pages in 3 days, the day9 fan club in comparison has 134 pages and has been active for over one year. Do people not realize that the undeserved reverence and vigilant e-staring ( I use staring instead of stalking because I don't believe it has even come close to being appropriate for that term) is one of the reason why women are driven from this industry and other ones like it? If you treat women just like anyone else I guarantee more would be willing to participate in e-sports. The reason why many girls are afraid of even letting people know that they are female online is because of all the fervent attention it will bring upon them. I'm sure that the mmo players among all ave heard the female members of their guild complaining about what happens when people on their server/realm/world w/e you call it figure out that they are female. Another thing I'd like to comment on is female only tournaments such as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230697 . These do nothing but promote the belief that women cannot compete with men in e-sports which to me seems to be nothing but utter ridiculousness. E-sports are for the most part mental activities the physical requirement is not high enough that sexual dimorphism would have any significant effect. If you want more women in esports stop treating them differently. Women if you want to be treated equally then stop voluntarily segregating yourself with things such as female leagues and tournaments. Do you think things like the relatively quick fan clubs are hurting or helping the problem? Girls will never compete with men in terms of physical abilities, no matter if it is about velocity, strength, even psychologically men are usually far ahead in terms of determination and sacrifice. Sexual dimorphism DOES matter and you cannot overcome the process of several million years of evolution with an ideology. In real sports you can see women not doing sports which are not segregated (boxing, judo, speaking of experience), whereas segregated team sports such as soccer, basketball are quite appreciated by them. So segregation is the best way to attract the most girls, but in the end they will always be very few. Evolutionary psychology is bullshit conjecture with an enormous selection bias. Men are ahead in terms of determination and sacrifice? Do you know how frequent ACL injuries are in women's soccer, yet tons and tons of women try to play through them? Women sacrifice their bodies a lot more than men do in some sports and combined with a higher pain tolerance and their own personal determination leads to a ton of career ending/quality of life effecting injuries, from the middle school level on up. Rancière, really? Rancière's view on equity within society was terrible. He's like the Mises of post-modern philosophy, although luckily not many people agree with him. The ironic thing about torn acls is that girls tend to be a lot more susceptible to tearing a knee ligaments.than men. Although this doesn't affect determination. It just kind of makes your post a bit ironic :-p
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On July 16 2011 01:09 vetinari wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:52 sailorferret wrote: Everyone is deserving of equal moral consideration... even if not respect. That means not excluding people or creating places that are exclusionary.
You should also read Jacques Rancière's writings on the subject of equality. Even if everyone is not equal in skill, intellect, etc... the presumption of equality is a beneficial one for society as a whole. Equality is a starting point, not a goal. So long as you can understand beings as equal even if you don't respect them that's fine. If lack of respect is a reason to deny equality then there's a problem. Really? I'd rather live in a community that excluded rapists and murderers, and looked down upon the rude, the arrogant and the promiscious* (among other negative traits.) It generally tends to be safer, and more pleasant to live in such a place. As for equality ... /shrug, there is nothing wrong with assuming other people are your equal, until they prove otherwise, with word or deed. People are not equals, though that does not mean that they cannot earn respect, or that they do not deserve courtesy. I do not regard a criminal as an equal, nor do I regard a child born mentally handicapped as an equal. But the child deserves to be treated with kindness, and criminals deserve the opportunity to atone for their crimes. *You will never convice me that promiscuity is a morally neutral trait, let alone a good. Individual sexual satisfaction does not outweight the harm done to men, women and children and society as a whole.
I feel like you're taking what he said in a completely different direction than he intended, when he was talking about exclusion and equality, he mentioned it as a starting point, you're judged from there based on your abilities and actions. I highly doubt that he meant we shouldn't try to get rid of murderers and rapists, merely that everyone should start out with the same regard and then it goes up and down from there based on their actions. As for your comment on promiscuity, I don't want to get off-topic so I'll just say I disagree.
I agree with him for the most part, and I think you really just took something completely irrelevant from his post. He wasn't talking about leaving rapists and murderers as part of society, merely that no one should be excluded for something or given leniency in regards to something because of their gender.
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On July 16 2011 01:01 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:48 vetinari wrote: edit about your edit: rubbish. Modern western civilization is not qualitatively different. Human nature has not changed. Really? Is that why we do things like plan pregnancies or have them for our own pleasure? Do men select women for their hip bearing capacity (keep in mind this is a site with a lot of KPOP fanboys)? And women choose men for their alpha male behavior? Please don't turn this into another PUA bullshit fest. Not qualitatively different? Do you understand what that means in terms of research? (hint: it doesn't mean anything in your context.)
You know, people in the past also planned pregnancies. Contraception has been known for a bloody long time, which includes the fertility delaying effects of nursing. Women wanted children in the past too. Men still desire the 0.7 W/H ratio. Yes, they do. They stay with men based on whether the men display the appropriate mix of alpha and beta behaviour (the appropriate level of the latter is not zero, despite what PUA would have you believe). This has not changed.
Your point? I'm using the common use meaning, not the research meaning. I'm pretty sure you know what I mean, though, and if you know the correct way of saying it, could you write it out? My English isn't perfect.
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First, to say everyone is equal is not to say that we must tolerate every action. Rather to say that everyone is equal--or worthy of moral consideration--is to say that no one should be precluded a priori because of who they are. My understanding of equality is not that everyone is treated equally but that when we approach new people we take a position of assuming equality first.
Second, if everyone assumed others to be equal there wouldn't be rape or murder because to rape or murder someone requires the belief that they are not equal to you. We obviously can't fiat a world where rape or murder don't exist *regardless* of the exclusions we set up because it's inevitable. What we can change is our approach to how we deal with others.
Third, your example makes no sense in this context because we are talking about the inclusion of women in online gaming. If there are structures that are set up that people are unwilling to change to help promote women participating in e-sports it isn't because you're afraid they're murderers or rapists. Rather, what you are doing is saying that because it is ok to exclude rapists from society that it is ok to exclude anyone who you may not respect.--At least to the degree that taking initiatives to promote female participation are scoffed at for going against nature.
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The main reason you don’t see more female players (and new players in general) is training style in esports. Right now to get better at Starcraft you play more games. Bad expo timings? Play more games. Losing to bunker rushes? Play more games. Poor marine micro under pressure? Play more games. If you go to any other sport and only play the sport itself with no other training you will never get close to competing with the best. If a Golf player is having problems with his drive he gets three buckets of balls and sits on the driving range to work on his swing, he doesn’t go play the back 9 for 16 hours straight. If a football player is having trouble controlling passes he gets a partner and they pass the ball around, they don’t line up for a scrimmage. If a basketball player has a bad free-throw percentage he gets on the line with a rack of balls and goes at it, he doesn’t wait to get fouled in a game. I get that some things you can only learn in-game (true in any sport), but there are so many elements of playing that could be trained outside the game and SC players seem oblivious to it.
I understand this mentality came from Korea where they grind out 16 hours of games a day as training and if everyone is grinding training games then the person playing the most games will be at the top of the skill tree, so it looks like this is the best way to practice. The problem is that mentality is bullshit. While players can know their weaknesses they can never address them directly so the rate of improvement and skill ceiling are very low. Moving back to the topic, most chicks can’t sit down and grind out games all day. Even ones that are interested in Starcraft can’t do it. Hell, most dudes can’t do it even when they are being paid to do it. Until Starcraft is broken out into different areas of skill and a training schedule is worked for those areas you are never going to see an influx of new, skilled (male or female) gamers.
The other interesting thing about esports is the physical component is very small compared to traditional sports. The best female tennis player will never be able to compete with the best male tennis player (Serena tried, shit was hilarious). Starcraft isn’t like that, the only physical element is APM. Women could compete at the highest level but until the path to being Good --> Great --> Master --> Pro is more clear and defined we are not going to see it. I would love to see a Tony Schwartz or a Peter Drucker type trainer come into the SC world. I know it will happen eventually because these larger corporate sponsors are taking interest in esports and as a result I think the focused training mindset of modern management will bleed into western teams. That thought makes me hot in the pants because once the training regiment gets sorted out in the west we will finally start winning some goddamn tournaments.
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On July 16 2011 01:22 sailorferret wrote: First, to say everyone is equal is not to say that we must tolerate every action. Rather to say that everyone is equal--or worthy of moral consideration--is to say that no one should be precluded a priori because of who they are. My understanding of equality is not that everyone is treated equally but that when we approach new people we take a position of assuming equality first.
Second, if everyone assumed others to be equal there wouldn't be rape or murder because to rape or murder someone requires the belief that they are not equal to you. We obviously can't fiat a world where rape or murder don't exist *regardless* of the exclusions we set up because it's inevitable. What we can change is our approach to how we deal with others.
Third, your example makes no sense in this context because we are talking about the inclusion of women in online gaming. If there are structures that are set up that people are unwilling to change to help promote women participating in e-sports it isn't because you're afraid they're murderers or rapists. Rather, what you are doing is saying that because it is ok to exclude rapists from society that it is ok to exclude anyone who you may not respect.--At least to the degree that taking initiatives to promote female participation are scoffed at for going against nature.
I'd just like to mention, whilst i don't agree with everything you say (though most of it makes perfect sense), I respect your ability to keep composure in everything you say, also your commitment to your argument is nice to see
Perhaps a more welcoming esports infrastructure would help out a lot. I think the real trouble is the resentment it causes when equally talented males feel left out because they won't receive the same opportunities
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On July 16 2011 01:22 sailorferret wrote: First, to say everyone is equal is not to say that we must tolerate every action. Rather to say that everyone is equal--or worthy of moral consideration--is to say that no one should be precluded a priori because of who they are. My understanding of equality is not that everyone is treated equally but that when we approach new people we take a position of assuming equality first.
Second, if everyone assumed others to be equal there wouldn't be rape or murder because to rape or murder someone requires the belief that they are not equal to you. We obviously can't fiat a world where rape or murder don't exist *regardless* of the exclusions we set up because it's inevitable. What we can change is our approach to how we deal with others.
Third, your example makes no sense in this context because we are talking about the inclusion of women in online gaming. If there are structures that are set up that people are unwilling to change to help promote women participating in e-sports it isn't because you're afraid they're murderers or rapists. Rather, what you are doing is saying that because it is ok to exclude rapists from society that it is ok to exclude anyone who you may not respect.--At least to the degree that taking initiatives to promote female participation are scoffed at for going against nature. ' Pretty reasonable, to treat people of different races/ethnicities as equals. I do think that women should be treated as "different but equal", for the good of both men and women. Because I maintain that men and women are different, and should be treated so. Differently. Not badly. You know, the old days of giving up your seat for women, women dressing modestly, men and women cleaning up their tongues when around the opposite sex and children, that sort of thing.
The seems pretty absurd, tbh and is pretty getting far afield. Needless to say, I disagree. Crimes of passion and all.
Hmm, we seem to be arguing at cross purposes. I am arguing that men and women are different, and that hence should be treated different (aka patriarchy. Frankly, I wouldn't want to have a daughter in this society. I'd feel almost helpless, being unable to protect her properly. I worry for my sister enough as it is.) I have no problems with girls only tournaments or encouraging girls to play starcraft.
As for respect: I will repeat, it must be earned, and people should be encouraged to try to earn it. In a good society, you earn respect by being good, so it should not that difficult.
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On July 16 2011 01:35 vetinari wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 01:22 sailorferret wrote: First, to say everyone is equal is not to say that we must tolerate every action. Rather to say that everyone is equal--or worthy of moral consideration--is to say that no one should be precluded a priori because of who they are. My understanding of equality is not that everyone is treated equally but that when we approach new people we take a position of assuming equality first.
Second, if everyone assumed others to be equal there wouldn't be rape or murder because to rape or murder someone requires the belief that they are not equal to you. We obviously can't fiat a world where rape or murder don't exist *regardless* of the exclusions we set up because it's inevitable. What we can change is our approach to how we deal with others.
Third, your example makes no sense in this context because we are talking about the inclusion of women in online gaming. If there are structures that are set up that people are unwilling to change to help promote women participating in e-sports it isn't because you're afraid they're murderers or rapists. Rather, what you are doing is saying that because it is ok to exclude rapists from society that it is ok to exclude anyone who you may not respect.--At least to the degree that taking initiatives to promote female participation are scoffed at for going against nature. ' Pretty reasonable, to treat people of different races/ethnicities as equals. I do think that women should be treated as "different but equal", for the good of both men and women. Because I maintain that men and women are different, and should be treated so. Differently. Not badly. You know, the old days of giving up your seat for women, women dressing modestly, men and women cleaning up their tongues when around the opposite sex and children, that sort of thing. The seems pretty absurd, tbh and is pretty getting far afield. Needless to say, I disagree. Crimes of passion and all. Hmm, we seem to be arguing at cross purposes. I am arguing that men and women are different, and that hence should be treated different (aka patriarchy. Frankly, I wouldn't want to have a daughter in this society. I'd feel almost helpless, being unable to protect her properly. I worry for my sister enough as it is.) I have no problems with girls only tournaments or encouraging girls to play starcraft. As for respect: I will repeat, it must be earned, and people should be encouraged to try to earn it. In a good society, you earn respect by being good, so it should not that difficult.
So basically, you're in favor of more of a patriarchal society?
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On July 16 2011 01:39 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 01:35 vetinari wrote:On July 16 2011 01:22 sailorferret wrote: First, to say everyone is equal is not to say that we must tolerate every action. Rather to say that everyone is equal--or worthy of moral consideration--is to say that no one should be precluded a priori because of who they are. My understanding of equality is not that everyone is treated equally but that when we approach new people we take a position of assuming equality first.
Second, if everyone assumed others to be equal there wouldn't be rape or murder because to rape or murder someone requires the belief that they are not equal to you. We obviously can't fiat a world where rape or murder don't exist *regardless* of the exclusions we set up because it's inevitable. What we can change is our approach to how we deal with others.
Third, your example makes no sense in this context because we are talking about the inclusion of women in online gaming. If there are structures that are set up that people are unwilling to change to help promote women participating in e-sports it isn't because you're afraid they're murderers or rapists. Rather, what you are doing is saying that because it is ok to exclude rapists from society that it is ok to exclude anyone who you may not respect.--At least to the degree that taking initiatives to promote female participation are scoffed at for going against nature. ' Pretty reasonable, to treat people of different races/ethnicities as equals. I do think that women should be treated as "different but equal", for the good of both men and women. Because I maintain that men and women are different, and should be treated so. Differently. Not badly. You know, the old days of giving up your seat for women, women dressing modestly, men and women cleaning up their tongues when around the opposite sex and children, that sort of thing. The seems pretty absurd, tbh and is pretty getting far afield. Needless to say, I disagree. Crimes of passion and all. Hmm, we seem to be arguing at cross purposes. I am arguing that men and women are different, and that hence should be treated different (aka patriarchy. Frankly, I wouldn't want to have a daughter in this society. I'd feel almost helpless, being unable to protect her properly. I worry for my sister enough as it is.) I have no problems with girls only tournaments or encouraging girls to play starcraft. As for respect: I will repeat, it must be earned, and people should be encouraged to try to earn it. In a good society, you earn respect by being good, so it should not that difficult. So basically, you're in favor of more of a patriarchal society?
Yes.
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This is the THIRD THREAD that has been posted on here in two days.
What is up with this? Why does everyone all of a sudden care about girls in their games?
Here are my responses to those respective threads: Riku's Thread Malyce's Thread
Before, it used to be "oh ya Riku's a girl, sweet cosplay" or whatever. Now all of a sudden it's an issue because people who care that she's a girl must have noticed this fact.
Women very simply don't like to compete in SC2. They get satisfaction from other things. If a girl wants to compete then whatever, she wants to compete. If she wins she wins, if she fails she fails. We don't have to act like it's a big deal because it isn't.
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On July 16 2011 01:44 vetinari wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 01:39 Mordiford wrote:On July 16 2011 01:35 vetinari wrote:On July 16 2011 01:22 sailorferret wrote: First, to say everyone is equal is not to say that we must tolerate every action. Rather to say that everyone is equal--or worthy of moral consideration--is to say that no one should be precluded a priori because of who they are. My understanding of equality is not that everyone is treated equally but that when we approach new people we take a position of assuming equality first.
Second, if everyone assumed others to be equal there wouldn't be rape or murder because to rape or murder someone requires the belief that they are not equal to you. We obviously can't fiat a world where rape or murder don't exist *regardless* of the exclusions we set up because it's inevitable. What we can change is our approach to how we deal with others.
Third, your example makes no sense in this context because we are talking about the inclusion of women in online gaming. If there are structures that are set up that people are unwilling to change to help promote women participating in e-sports it isn't because you're afraid they're murderers or rapists. Rather, what you are doing is saying that because it is ok to exclude rapists from society that it is ok to exclude anyone who you may not respect.--At least to the degree that taking initiatives to promote female participation are scoffed at for going against nature. ' Pretty reasonable, to treat people of different races/ethnicities as equals. I do think that women should be treated as "different but equal", for the good of both men and women. Because I maintain that men and women are different, and should be treated so. Differently. Not badly. You know, the old days of giving up your seat for women, women dressing modestly, men and women cleaning up their tongues when around the opposite sex and children, that sort of thing. The seems pretty absurd, tbh and is pretty getting far afield. Needless to say, I disagree. Crimes of passion and all. Hmm, we seem to be arguing at cross purposes. I am arguing that men and women are different, and that hence should be treated different (aka patriarchy. Frankly, I wouldn't want to have a daughter in this society. I'd feel almost helpless, being unable to protect her properly. I worry for my sister enough as it is.) I have no problems with girls only tournaments or encouraging girls to play starcraft. As for respect: I will repeat, it must be earned, and people should be encouraged to try to earn it. In a good society, you earn respect by being good, so it should not that difficult. So basically, you're in favor of more of a patriarchal society? Yes.
If you wouldn't mind (maybe pm if you don't want to put it in the thread, perhaps its irrelevent) What do you think the advantages of a patriarchal society are, over an egalitarian?
Personally i don't believe an egalitarian society is even remotely possible, even if it might be deemed desirable. Unfortunately the only surface information about patriarchy i've looked at is also tied to references of rape and abuse, and anti-feminism, which im pretty sure is NOT what your condoning
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I completely agree with not enough females in E-sports is an issue. Now the reason for this is pretty obvious according to me. Take League of Legends for instance where all female champions are big breasted with cleavage, clearly in purpose of targeting a male audience. I wouldn't say this is the game developers fault though since this is what the community wants. Maybe if the community makes an effort to mature we can see a change, I hope we're at least going in the right direction.
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