Gender disparity in E-sports - Page 9

On July 15 2011 22:20 Elzar wrote:


Would you mind telling us what tournaments you're speaking of?
If it's true, that you can't play in some NA tournaments even though you have a NA account but aren't actually living in NA, then i'd say that this had to change, because i can't find any justification for it. How would they even be able to check your location?

And i say it again, i personally dont complain about female only tournaments, i just want to know why there is a need for it.



I care about my drones, does that make me a woman?

I'm just joking, i see what you're getting at.

Learn to read. "primarily" does not mean "solely". IQ tests are not racially/gender biased. They are a reasonably accurate measure of intelligence, in that people who score highly on IQ tests, are those who are regarded by other people as intelligent.

Because those female traits are not forms of intelligence. Emotion is the bloody antethesis of intelligence: "thinking with your heart, instead of your head.". Cooperation is not intelligence. Competiveness is not intelligence. Competition is equated as male, because men are more competitive than women on average. g is the measure of intelligence.

They have a small cultural influence, though there is a large nutritional influence to many of them. The only matriarchal societies on earth, are hunter gatherer societies. Hardly the pinnacle of civilization. Yes, science does back up patriarchal claims. You will have to do a lot better than spouting platitudes, to convince me that the social system that built all civilizations is not better than the alternative, which is only found in ghettos and hunter gatherer tribes...

On July 15 2011 22:43 Utinni wrote:


Umm the biggest one I can think of is.
IPL Season 1 NA
Season 2 NA/Europe
Season 3 will be NA/Europe/Korea(a smaller pool then the former 2)

On July 15 2011 22:48 sailorferret wrote:


They are racially and gendered biased heavily. The originally had explicitly racist questions on the test as well. Here's a quick search of tens of thousands of scholarly articles that show IQ tests to be biased.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=iq test bias&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart



Not true. You have a self-referential definition of intelligence. I can't convince you things like emotion, art, friendship are intelligence because you define it differently. The dictionary says " The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills" which include things other than what IQ tests, etc.



Give me you cites on science backing up your patriarchal claims. Post em, and I'll post the responses... because you're wrong. Also the claim that matriarchal societies are uncivilized is flat out ethnocentric and the exact rationale used to justify the killing and enslavement of "savage" indigenous populations. Native Americans were uncivilized so we could take their land, African males were too feminine and did't abide by European ideals of intelligence and were enslaved. The alternative is NOT return to ghettos or hunter gather tribes (though that would probably hurt the environment way less and be the intelligent thing to do as a species to preserve our planet... but that's another thread). The answer is to encounter individuals as individuals, to avoid using essentialistic language, and to look at the way our current society is constructed so we can be aware of biases etc so we can work to fix them. Sadly, people are too set on defending the status-quo than questioning why things are the way they are.

Lastly, @Eleaven- I do not deny all biological facts. However, the majority of people deny the vast majority if not all of cultural influences. Genes may tether us to a certain area but our ability to go beyond that starting point almost infinite. There is no biological fact that proves men as more competitive than women that doesn't also show a large degree of cultural influences that enable environmental conditions to make it so. In short, don't mistake stereotypes for biological facts.

On July 15 2011 22:56 Elzar wrote:


Sorry, i can't find anything regarding this on their website or in the threads posted here.
Could you link me the site where it says that only players living in NA are allowed to play the IPL NA tournaments?

"IGN Entertainment and its eSports division is excited to announce the IGN Pro League! The first season of the IPL is an invitational tournament to showcase what we can provide to you, the viewer, as well as serving as a test run for us for all of our new production and operations mechanisms. 16 players representing 9 different North American based clans will be competing for a prize pool of $5,000 and 4 automatic qualifier spots for IPL Season 2! The goal of the IPL is to bring a professional, polished viewing experience to fans of eSports, as well as supporting the development of eSports both nationally and internationally through a sustainable tournament system that rewards those who play in it."

On July 15 2011 23:18 Utinni wrote:

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_1


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_2

This is the season 2 thread on Team Liquid which includes an interview explaining season 1 was NA. Season 2 expanded to Europe/South America and North America

As well as a smaller pool of Koreans included in Season 3.

They are racially and gendered biased heavily. The originally had explicitly racist questions on the test as well. Here's a quick search of tens of thousands of scholarly articles that show IQ tests to be biased.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=iq test bias&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

Not true. You have a self-referential definition of intelligence. I can't convince you things like emotion, art, friendship are intelligence because you define it differently. The dictionary says " The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills" which include things other than what IQ tests, etc.

the rest

On July 15 2011 23:20 Jibba wrote:
Just from the first two pages of the Event Tracker:

Manitoba only league - http://mbstarcraft.46.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=209
Ottawa only league - http://gamingottawa.ca/leagues/starcraft2/
Romanian only league - http://www.sc2ro.ro/

I know there's a German only league and a Polish only league as well. Not to mention there's dozens of tournaments for people from Bronze-Diamond only.

[...]

1. It's impossible to create a perfect test that isn't biased, and in developing the WIAS IQ test they are constantly trying to minimize the problems that inevitably exist. It's far from perfect especially in the sense that high score = high intelligence, but overall it's a test that is useful for determining which individuals are in need of help. Disregarding it as "biased" is just an easy way out and I welcome you to try to create an instrument that does the same thing and isn't biased.

2. How would one do research that eliminates the possbility of cultural bias? Saying that "there is no such research" is just silly because you can't expect that, and the qualitative research regarding the degree of cultural influence is even easier to argue against. The normal discussion in this kind of research is "how much of the variability can be attributed to the environment and how much can be attributed to the individual or group". Noone is denying a cultural effect but you seem a bit radical in your approach.

Damn straight I think western/eastern civilization is better than hunter gathering. I live in luxury and comfort because of the work that my patriarchal ancestors did.

On July 15 2011 22:05 Elzar wrote:


You're missing the point.
Nobody complains about female only tournaments.
It's not like i'm offended by it or anything, but i ask myself, why there is even a need for those tournaments? In my opinion it is implying that women can't compete with their male counterparts.

Now i don't think that's the case, so why would they want to exclude themselfs from their male opponents? I just want to know why, i don't want them to get rid of those tournaments but if you ask me, there's no need for it.

On July 15 2011 19:52 Sablar wrote:
Think top 2% of 2 000 000 players, and top 2% of 100 000, who are the best? If anyone has some evidence for a statement like "women think worse" I would really like to see it.

On July 15 2011 23:57 Falling wrote:


Oh I absolutely think there's a need. For no other reason except for girls getting together for some competitive fun. Girl's night out? Guy's poker? (Mind you mixed poker is still better.) Point is, do females need to justify the need to play the game together? Oh, and people most certainly complain about female tournaments. Loudly and often. As often as a new thread announcing said female tournament.

Which brings me to another point that I had at one point considered turning into a stand-alone thread. Maybe everyone's right. Maybe girl's shouldn't have their own league, maybe Anna has contributed nothing to esports, maybe CheekyDuck should never have been interviewed, maybe kellymilkies should never have done the FHM photoshoot (can you think of any other recent controversies? I'm sure there was something about lil-susie), oh. and maybe Tossgirl looks like a man...

Maybe that's all true, but sometimes I wish people would spend more time being welcoming and less time being right. Everyone is so concerned about being right. Particularly that girl's never receive more attention than is their due, that if a girl dare raise their hand to identify that, yes they are female and they would like to contribute to Starcraft in whatever way they can (or just do some other side projects).... then teh internetz jumps them and strings them up.
"How dare anyone even acknowledge you existence until you have macro of Flash, the multi-tasking of Bisu, the knowledge of Artosis, etc, etc."
"Go back to the hole you crawled out from" we roar.
"And do not return until you are a goddess of gaming."

Maybe we're right. But is it worth it? If we truly want to see gender equality, maybe being a little more welcoming would help?

On July 15 2011 23:51 sailorferret wrote:


Do you realize that's the same reason why we shouldn't use it to make blanket statements like women are biologically less intelligent than men? My point is not that we should use unbiased tests but that we shouldn't use such tests to make generalizations of genders, races, etc... especially when the impact of that statement is to exclude certain people as a whole because they are less intelligent.



A lot of people are minimizing or flat out denying cultural effects of intelligence on the sexes. If you don't disagree that cultural influences effect how women or men are competitive or not then we're on the same page. If you defend it as a purely biology thing then my statements still apply. Nothing is purely nature or nurture. Neither should be presumed to be dominant. Most in this thread attribute it almost entirely to biology.

@ventiri - wikipedia is not a source. Just like a forum thread is not evidence of proof either. Please increase your citation quality if you want to make quality arguments. There is no reason why some traits are considered intelligence and others are not. It's entirely arbitrary. One could argue that competition and the intelligence that "men" have, which brought us nuclear and biological weapons, terrorism, environmental destruction, etc is not intelligence at all but outright stupidity. ... AND MORE IMPORTANTLY...



Damn straight you do. Your ancestors perpetuated genocide, enslavement, and a bunch of other nasty things so we could exterminate savages for civilization and untold destruction. Yes, you live in luxury... at the expense of others in history and currently. The defense of civilization has been the defense of imperialism, extermination, and war for generations. Using the discourse of civilization to defend the benefit of patriarchy is absurd... unless of course the patriarchal intelligence of destruction is what we seek to uphold. Care about your planet, care about your community, care about others.... even if they appear uncivilized to you. Don't just label them as unintelligent, backwards, and less than people who live in "civilization." It's not only culturally insenstive but also, again, literally the exact defense used in every colonial campaign. Even Disney movies like Pocahontas (which are hardly the pinnacle of liberal education or a radical philosophy) repeatedly point out how discourses of savageness and civilization is destructive.

Hardt & Negi's book "Empire" has a lot more on this subject as well.

On July 15 2011 23:30 vetinari wrote:
Jibba: what do you expect? Men to regard women as other men? That won't happen. Women have the opportunity to play SC2 anonymously, and get good before "coming out", if you will. Everyone has a right to expect courtesy, but respect? Respect must be earned.

On July 15 2011 10:07 Nothingtosay wrote:
It is no secret that like many fields e-sports is currently a male dominated arena. While I would have a hard time believing that the vast majority of people wish for e-sports to remain this way; I believe that the actions of the community don't reflect a desire to inject more females into the culture of e-sports. Several recent events have intrigued me enough to the point that I feel that it would helpful to see what other memebers of the community feel about the matter.

Please be aware that I am not personally attacking any individual in this thread especially considering the fact that they are not responsible for the actions of TL.

The primary events that sparked this thread where the creation of two fan clubs that personally view as extremely premature. Namely the Lindsey Sporrer fanclub and the slayers_eve fan club. IN all honesty besides being born female what have either of these people done to warrant a fan club at all? The sporrer fanclub has 53 pages in 3 days, the day9 fan club in comparison has 134 pages and has been active for over one year.

Do people not realize that the undeserved reverence and vigilant e-staring ( I use staring instead of stalking because I don't believe it has even come close to being appropriate for that term) is one of the reason why women are driven from this industry and other ones like it? If you treat women just like anyone else I guarantee more would be willing to participate in e-sports. The reason why many girls are afraid of even letting people know that they are female online is because of all the fervent attention it will bring upon them. I'm sure that the mmo players among all ave heard the female members of their guild complaining about what happens when people on their server/realm/world w/e you call it figure out that they are female.

Another thing I'd like to comment on is female only tournaments such as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230697 . These do nothing but promote the belief that women cannot compete with men in e-sports which to me seems to be nothing but utter ridiculousness. E-sports are for the most part mental activities the physical requirement is not high enough that sexual dimorphism would have any significant effect.

If you want more women in esports stop treating them differently. Women if you want to be treated equally then stop voluntarily segregating yourself with things such as female leagues and tournaments.

Do you think things like the relatively quick fan clubs are hurting or helping the problem?