|
On July 15 2011 22:20 Elzar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 22:13 Utinni wrote:On July 15 2011 22:05 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 21:58 Utinni wrote: How many females get to actually play against each other tournaments? Prolly very few if any... I don't get why all you guys are getting butt hurt at restrictions on tournaments.
It's a game, its for entertainment value.
People will watch, People will tell their friends... any publicity is good publicity...
These threads are so over done and pointless except to make nerds huff and puff.
Learn to enjoy the the content you are given or make your own tourney and make sure to invite calvin and hobbes. You're missing the point. Nobody complains about female only tournaments. It's not like i'm offended by it or anything, but i ask myself, why there is even a need for those tournaments? In my opinion it is implying that women can't compete with their male counterparts. Now i don't think that's the case, so why would they want to exclude themselfs from their male opponents? I just want to know why, i don't want them to get rid of those tournaments but if you ask me, there's no need for it. The OP complains that it is hurting female pro-gaming... when it really isn't Dude it's just another restriction. Why do some tournaments only include people from North America? Many Europeans have North American accounts but cannot enter these tournaments... why would you want to exclude european counterparts? Korean etc. Of course there are thousands of tourneys each years so I don't see why anyone cares if they have a tourney or 2 that are female only... Are they having fun? yes.... will we think they are the best in the world? Nope... It's not like they just stopped entering other tourneys just to focus on the "FEMALE CUP." The number of female starcraft 2 players compared to male is prolly pretty slim so of course females cannot compete at the same level... its common sense. Would you mind telling us what tournaments you're speaking of? If it's true, that you can't play in some NA tournaments even though you have a NA account but aren't actually living in NA, then i'd say that this had to change, because i can't find any justification for it. How would they even be able to check your location? And i say it again, i personally dont complain about female only tournaments, i just want to know why there is a need for it. Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 22:15 Xiphos wrote: I've seen women getting crazy over....fb games....like farmville..-_- I think that women in nature are more of nurturing, motherly side of them while men were mostly evolved to be more civilized from hunters and more "aggressive" in nature. Farmville is a game that requires somewhat of great care (of "crops" lol) so women tend to display their nurturing nature there. StarCraft on the other hand is a game of "killer instinct", you have to do a certain thing to SURVIVE so that makes women less likely to participate. I care about my drones, does that make me a woman? I'm just joking, i see what you're getting at.
Umm the biggest one I can think of is. IPL Season 1 NA Season 2 NA/Europe Season 3 will be NA/Europe/Korea(a smaller pool then the former 2)
|
I am just saying it's another avenue for sc2 to grow. Growth is what sc2 and esports need.
|
Learn to read. "primarily" does not mean "solely". IQ tests are not racially/gender biased. They are a reasonably accurate measure of intelligence, in that people who score highly on IQ tests, are those who are regarded by other people as intelligent.
They are racially and gendered biased heavily. The originally had explicitly racist questions on the test as well. Here's a quick search of tens of thousands of scholarly articles that show IQ tests to be biased. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=iq test bias&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
Because those female traits are not forms of intelligence. Emotion is the bloody antethesis of intelligence: "thinking with your heart, instead of your head.". Cooperation is not intelligence. Competiveness is not intelligence. Competition is equated as male, because men are more competitive than women on average. g is the measure of intelligence.
Not true. You have a self-referential definition of intelligence. I can't convince you things like emotion, art, friendship are intelligence because you define it differently. The dictionary says " The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills" which include things other than what IQ tests, etc.
They have a small cultural influence, though there is a large nutritional influence to many of them. The only matriarchal societies on earth, are hunter gatherer societies. Hardly the pinnacle of civilization. Yes, science does back up patriarchal claims. You will have to do a lot better than spouting platitudes, to convince me that the social system that built all civilizations is not better than the alternative, which is only found in ghettos and hunter gatherer tribes...
Give me you cites on science backing up your patriarchal claims. Post em, and I'll post the responses... because you're wrong. Also the claim that matriarchal societies are uncivilized is flat out ethnocentric and the exact rationale used to justify the killing and enslavement of "savage" indigenous populations. Native Americans were uncivilized so we could take their land, African males were too feminine and did't abide by European ideals of intelligence and were enslaved. The alternative is NOT return to ghettos or hunter gather tribes (though that would probably hurt the environment way less and be the intelligent thing to do as a species to preserve our planet... but that's another thread). The answer is to encounter individuals as individuals, to avoid using essentialistic language, and to look at the way our current society is constructed so we can be aware of biases etc so we can work to fix them. Sadly, people are too set on defending the status-quo than questioning why things are the way they are.
Lastly, @Eleaven- I do not deny all biological facts. However, the majority of people deny the vast majority if not all of cultural influences. Genes may tether us to a certain area but our ability to go beyond that starting point almost infinite. There is no biological fact that proves men as more competitive than women that doesn't also show a large degree of cultural influences that enable environmental conditions to make it so. In short, don't mistake stereotypes for biological facts.
|
On July 15 2011 22:43 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 22:20 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 22:13 Utinni wrote:On July 15 2011 22:05 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 21:58 Utinni wrote: How many females get to actually play against each other tournaments? Prolly very few if any... I don't get why all you guys are getting butt hurt at restrictions on tournaments.
It's a game, its for entertainment value.
People will watch, People will tell their friends... any publicity is good publicity...
These threads are so over done and pointless except to make nerds huff and puff.
Learn to enjoy the the content you are given or make your own tourney and make sure to invite calvin and hobbes. You're missing the point. Nobody complains about female only tournaments. It's not like i'm offended by it or anything, but i ask myself, why there is even a need for those tournaments? In my opinion it is implying that women can't compete with their male counterparts. Now i don't think that's the case, so why would they want to exclude themselfs from their male opponents? I just want to know why, i don't want them to get rid of those tournaments but if you ask me, there's no need for it. The OP complains that it is hurting female pro-gaming... when it really isn't Dude it's just another restriction. Why do some tournaments only include people from North America? Many Europeans have North American accounts but cannot enter these tournaments... why would you want to exclude european counterparts? Korean etc. Of course there are thousands of tourneys each years so I don't see why anyone cares if they have a tourney or 2 that are female only... Are they having fun? yes.... will we think they are the best in the world? Nope... It's not like they just stopped entering other tourneys just to focus on the "FEMALE CUP." The number of female starcraft 2 players compared to male is prolly pretty slim so of course females cannot compete at the same level... its common sense. Would you mind telling us what tournaments you're speaking of? If it's true, that you can't play in some NA tournaments even though you have a NA account but aren't actually living in NA, then i'd say that this had to change, because i can't find any justification for it. How would they even be able to check your location? And i say it again, i personally dont complain about female only tournaments, i just want to know why there is a need for it. On July 15 2011 22:15 Xiphos wrote: I've seen women getting crazy over....fb games....like farmville..-_- I think that women in nature are more of nurturing, motherly side of them while men were mostly evolved to be more civilized from hunters and more "aggressive" in nature. Farmville is a game that requires somewhat of great care (of "crops" lol) so women tend to display their nurturing nature there. StarCraft on the other hand is a game of "killer instinct", you have to do a certain thing to SURVIVE so that makes women less likely to participate. I care about my drones, does that make me a woman? I'm just joking, i see what you're getting at. Umm the biggest one I can think of is. IPL Season 1 NA Season 2 NA/Europe Season 3 will be NA/Europe/Korea(a smaller pool then the former 2)
Sorry, i can't find anything regarding this on their website or in the threads posted here. Could you link me the site where it says that only players living in NA are allowed to play the IPL NA tournaments?
|
On July 15 2011 22:48 sailorferret wrote:Show nested quote + Learn to read. "primarily" does not mean "solely". IQ tests are not racially/gender biased. They are a reasonably accurate measure of intelligence, in that people who score highly on IQ tests, are those who are regarded by other people as intelligent. They are racially and gendered biased heavily. The originally had explicitly racist questions on the test as well. Here's a quick search of tens of thousands of scholarly articles that show IQ tests to be biased. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=iq test bias&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholartShow nested quote +Because those female traits are not forms of intelligence. Emotion is the bloody antethesis of intelligence: "thinking with your heart, instead of your head.". Cooperation is not intelligence. Competiveness is not intelligence. Competition is equated as male, because men are more competitive than women on average. g is the measure of intelligence. Not true. You have a self-referential definition of intelligence. I can't convince you things like emotion, art, friendship are intelligence because you define it differently. The dictionary says " The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills" which include things other than what IQ tests, etc. Show nested quote +They have a small cultural influence, though there is a large nutritional influence to many of them. The only matriarchal societies on earth, are hunter gatherer societies. Hardly the pinnacle of civilization. Yes, science does back up patriarchal claims. You will have to do a lot better than spouting platitudes, to convince me that the social system that built all civilizations is not better than the alternative, which is only found in ghettos and hunter gatherer tribes... Give me you cites on science backing up your patriarchal claims. Post em, and I'll post the responses... because you're wrong. Also the claim that matriarchal societies are uncivilized is flat out ethnocentric and the exact rationale used to justify the killing and enslavement of "savage" indigenous populations. Native Americans were uncivilized so we could take their land, African males were too feminine and did't abide by European ideals of intelligence and were enslaved. The alternative is NOT return to ghettos or hunter gather tribes (though that would probably hurt the environment way less and be the intelligent thing to do as a species to preserve our planet... but that's another thread). The answer is to encounter individuals as individuals, to avoid using essentialistic language, and to look at the way our current society is constructed so we can be aware of biases etc so we can work to fix them. Sadly, people are too set on defending the status-quo than questioning why things are the way they are. Lastly, @Eleaven- I do not deny all biological facts. However, the majority of people deny the vast majority if not all of cultural influences. Genes may tether us to a certain area but our ability to go beyond that starting point almost infinite. There is no biological fact that proves men as more competitive than women that doesn't also show a large degree of cultural influences that enable environmental conditions to make it so. In short, don't mistake stereotypes for biological facts.
You do realize that..
1. It's impossible to create a perfect test that isn't biased, and in developing the WIAS IQ test they are constantly trying to minimize the problems that inevitably exist. It's far from perfect especially in the sense that high score = high intelligence, but overall it's a test that is useful for determining which individuals are in need of help. Disregarding it as "biased" is just an easy way out and I welcome you to try to create an instrument that does the same thing and isn't biased.
2. How would one do research that eliminates the possbility of cultural bias? Saying that "there is no such research" is just silly because you can't expect that, and the qualitative research regarding the degree of cultural influence is even easier to argue against. The normal discussion in this kind of research is "how much of the variability can be attributed to the environment and how much can be attributed to the individual or group". Noone is denying a cultural effect but you seem a bit radical in your approach.
|
On July 15 2011 22:56 Elzar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 22:43 Utinni wrote:On July 15 2011 22:20 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 22:13 Utinni wrote:On July 15 2011 22:05 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 21:58 Utinni wrote: How many females get to actually play against each other tournaments? Prolly very few if any... I don't get why all you guys are getting butt hurt at restrictions on tournaments.
It's a game, its for entertainment value.
People will watch, People will tell their friends... any publicity is good publicity...
These threads are so over done and pointless except to make nerds huff and puff.
Learn to enjoy the the content you are given or make your own tourney and make sure to invite calvin and hobbes. You're missing the point. Nobody complains about female only tournaments. It's not like i'm offended by it or anything, but i ask myself, why there is even a need for those tournaments? In my opinion it is implying that women can't compete with their male counterparts. Now i don't think that's the case, so why would they want to exclude themselfs from their male opponents? I just want to know why, i don't want them to get rid of those tournaments but if you ask me, there's no need for it. The OP complains that it is hurting female pro-gaming... when it really isn't Dude it's just another restriction. Why do some tournaments only include people from North America? Many Europeans have North American accounts but cannot enter these tournaments... why would you want to exclude european counterparts? Korean etc. Of course there are thousands of tourneys each years so I don't see why anyone cares if they have a tourney or 2 that are female only... Are they having fun? yes.... will we think they are the best in the world? Nope... It's not like they just stopped entering other tourneys just to focus on the "FEMALE CUP." The number of female starcraft 2 players compared to male is prolly pretty slim so of course females cannot compete at the same level... its common sense. Would you mind telling us what tournaments you're speaking of? If it's true, that you can't play in some NA tournaments even though you have a NA account but aren't actually living in NA, then i'd say that this had to change, because i can't find any justification for it. How would they even be able to check your location? And i say it again, i personally dont complain about female only tournaments, i just want to know why there is a need for it. On July 15 2011 22:15 Xiphos wrote: I've seen women getting crazy over....fb games....like farmville..-_- I think that women in nature are more of nurturing, motherly side of them while men were mostly evolved to be more civilized from hunters and more "aggressive" in nature. Farmville is a game that requires somewhat of great care (of "crops" lol) so women tend to display their nurturing nature there. StarCraft on the other hand is a game of "killer instinct", you have to do a certain thing to SURVIVE so that makes women less likely to participate. I care about my drones, does that make me a woman? I'm just joking, i see what you're getting at. Umm the biggest one I can think of is. IPL Season 1 NA Season 2 NA/Europe Season 3 will be NA/Europe/Korea(a smaller pool then the former 2) Sorry, i can't find anything regarding this on their website or in the threads posted here. Could you link me the site where it says that only players living in NA are allowed to play the IPL NA tournaments? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_1
"IGN Entertainment and its eSports division is excited to announce the IGN Pro League! The first season of the IPL is an invitational tournament to showcase what we can provide to you, the viewer, as well as serving as a test run for us for all of our new production and operations mechanisms. 16 players representing 9 different North American based clans will be competing for a prize pool of $5,000 and 4 automatic qualifier spots for IPL Season 2! The goal of the IPL is to bring a professional, polished viewing experience to fans of eSports, as well as supporting the development of eSports both nationally and internationally through a sustainable tournament system that rewards those who play in it."
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_2
This is the season 2 thread on Team Liquid which includes an interview explaining season 1 was NA. Season 2 expanded to Europe/South America and North America
As well as a smaller pool of Koreans included in Season 3.
|
United States22883 Posts
Just from the first two pages of the Event Tracker:
Manitoba only league - http://mbstarcraft.46.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=209 Ottawa only league - http://gamingottawa.ca/leagues/starcraft2/ Romanian only league - http://www.sc2ro.ro/
I know there's a German only league and a Polish only league as well. Not to mention there's dozens of tournaments for people from Bronze-Diamond only.
Not every tournament has the goal of finding the best player in the world. If the KKK wanted to run a white supremacist only SC2 tournament, it really wouldn't affect anyone else.
It's quite easy when you're in the dominant Norm to suggest that things are alright or equal, like IdrA saying Zerg is fine/underpowered after winning a starleague. Some experiences are simply substantive and sexual and racial discrimination are two of them, and no matter how much it frustrates you to admit it, you cannot understand it nor might you ever realize its existence until you've felt it in a serious way.
Many female SC2 players want to have their own identity and their sex is part of that. Most likely for many of you, your masculinity is part of yours but you simply don't realize it because it's treated as a given on the internet..
EDIT: Re-reading this thread, holy shit there's a fuck ton of misogynists on TL. IzieBoy, I've never seen someone project their own personal demons so openly, and against a huge swath of people. Your mother being a bitch has nothing to do with women wanting to play SC2 together.
|
On July 15 2011 23:18 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 22:56 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 22:43 Utinni wrote:On July 15 2011 22:20 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 22:13 Utinni wrote:On July 15 2011 22:05 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 21:58 Utinni wrote: How many females get to actually play against each other tournaments? Prolly very few if any... I don't get why all you guys are getting butt hurt at restrictions on tournaments.
It's a game, its for entertainment value.
People will watch, People will tell their friends... any publicity is good publicity...
These threads are so over done and pointless except to make nerds huff and puff.
Learn to enjoy the the content you are given or make your own tourney and make sure to invite calvin and hobbes. You're missing the point. Nobody complains about female only tournaments. It's not like i'm offended by it or anything, but i ask myself, why there is even a need for those tournaments? In my opinion it is implying that women can't compete with their male counterparts. Now i don't think that's the case, so why would they want to exclude themselfs from their male opponents? I just want to know why, i don't want them to get rid of those tournaments but if you ask me, there's no need for it. The OP complains that it is hurting female pro-gaming... when it really isn't Dude it's just another restriction. Why do some tournaments only include people from North America? Many Europeans have North American accounts but cannot enter these tournaments... why would you want to exclude european counterparts? Korean etc. Of course there are thousands of tourneys each years so I don't see why anyone cares if they have a tourney or 2 that are female only... Are they having fun? yes.... will we think they are the best in the world? Nope... It's not like they just stopped entering other tourneys just to focus on the "FEMALE CUP." The number of female starcraft 2 players compared to male is prolly pretty slim so of course females cannot compete at the same level... its common sense. Would you mind telling us what tournaments you're speaking of? If it's true, that you can't play in some NA tournaments even though you have a NA account but aren't actually living in NA, then i'd say that this had to change, because i can't find any justification for it. How would they even be able to check your location? And i say it again, i personally dont complain about female only tournaments, i just want to know why there is a need for it. On July 15 2011 22:15 Xiphos wrote: I've seen women getting crazy over....fb games....like farmville..-_- I think that women in nature are more of nurturing, motherly side of them while men were mostly evolved to be more civilized from hunters and more "aggressive" in nature. Farmville is a game that requires somewhat of great care (of "crops" lol) so women tend to display their nurturing nature there. StarCraft on the other hand is a game of "killer instinct", you have to do a certain thing to SURVIVE so that makes women less likely to participate. I care about my drones, does that make me a woman? I'm just joking, i see what you're getting at. Umm the biggest one I can think of is. IPL Season 1 NA Season 2 NA/Europe Season 3 will be NA/Europe/Korea(a smaller pool then the former 2) Sorry, i can't find anything regarding this on their website or in the threads posted here. Could you link me the site where it says that only players living in NA are allowed to play the IPL NA tournaments? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_1Show nested quote +"IGN Entertainment and its eSports division is excited to announce the IGN Pro League! The first season of the IPL is an invitational tournament to showcase what we can provide to you, the viewer, as well as serving as a test run for us for all of our new production and operations mechanisms. 16 players representing 9 different North American based clans will be competing for a prize pool of $5,000 and 4 automatic qualifier spots for IPL Season 2! The goal of the IPL is to bring a professional, polished viewing experience to fans of eSports, as well as supporting the development of eSports both nationally and internationally through a sustainable tournament system that rewards those who play in it." http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_2This is the season 2 thread on Team Liquid which includes an interview explaining season 1 was NA. Season 2 expanded to Europe/South America and North AmericaAs well as a smaller pool of Koreans included in Season 3.
I think we misunderstood each other, but thanks anyways for the clarification.
|
Reality is gender biased. I'm not going into racial IQ differences, though the fact that certain ethnicities score higher and lower than whites on IQ tests do not prove that IQ tests are flawed, unfortunately.
Not true. You have a self-referential definition of intelligence. I can't convince you things like emotion, art, friendship are intelligence because you define it differently. The dictionary says " The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills" which include things other than what IQ tests, etc.
Because they aren't intelligence. Just because something is nice to possess, does not mean it is intelligence. Stop conflating every positive character trait with intelligence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence
the rest What do you call civilization? I know it when I see it, and i generally associate it with wonders of architecture, art, science, industry and government. Damn straight I think western/eastern civilization is better than hunter gathering. I live in luxury and comfort because of the work that my patriarchal ancestors did.
Jibba: what do you expect? Men to regard women as other men? That won't happen. Women have the opportunity to play SC2 anonymously, and get good before "coming out", if you will. Everyone has a right to expect courtesy, but respect? Respect must be earned.
|
Ok, this one made me think about my "why would there be a need for a female only tournament" question and it kind of made the question obsolete. :D
|
|
1. It's impossible to create a perfect test that isn't biased, and in developing the WIAS IQ test they are constantly trying to minimize the problems that inevitably exist. It's far from perfect especially in the sense that high score = high intelligence, but overall it's a test that is useful for determining which individuals are in need of help. Disregarding it as "biased" is just an easy way out and I welcome you to try to create an instrument that does the same thing and isn't biased.
Do you realize that's the same reason why we shouldn't use it to make blanket statements like women are biologically less intelligent than men? My point is not that we should use unbiased tests but that we shouldn't use such tests to make generalizations of genders, races, etc... especially when the impact of that statement is to exclude certain people as a whole because they are less intelligent.
2. How would one do research that eliminates the possbility of cultural bias? Saying that "there is no such research" is just silly because you can't expect that, and the qualitative research regarding the degree of cultural influence is even easier to argue against. The normal discussion in this kind of research is "how much of the variability can be attributed to the environment and how much can be attributed to the individual or group". Noone is denying a cultural effect but you seem a bit radical in your approach.
A lot of people are minimizing or flat out denying cultural effects of intelligence on the sexes. If you don't disagree that cultural influences effect how women or men are competitive or not then we're on the same page. If you defend it as a purely biology thing then my statements still apply. Nothing is purely nature or nurture. Neither should be presumed to be dominant. Most in this thread attribute it almost entirely to biology.
@ventiri - wikipedia is not a source. Just like a forum thread is not evidence of proof either. Please increase your citation quality if you want to make quality arguments. There is no reason why some traits are considered intelligence and others are not. It's entirely arbitrary. One could argue that competition and the intelligence that "men" have, which brought us nuclear and biological weapons, terrorism, environmental destruction, etc is not intelligence at all but outright stupidity. ... AND MORE IMPORTANTLY...
Damn straight I think western/eastern civilization is better than hunter gathering. I live in luxury and comfort because of the work that my patriarchal ancestors did.
Damn straight you do. Your ancestors perpetuated genocide, enslavement, and a bunch of other nasty things so we could exterminate savages for civilization and untold destruction. Yes, you live in luxury... at the expense of others in history and currently. The defense of civilization has been the defense of imperialism, extermination, and war for generations. Using the discourse of civilization to defend the benefit of patriarchy is absurd... unless of course the patriarchal intelligence of destruction is what we seek to uphold. Care about your planet, care about your community, care about others.... even if they appear uncivilized to you. Don't just label them as unintelligent, backwards, and less than people who live in "civilization." It's not only culturally insenstive but also, again, literally the exact defense used in every colonial campaign. Even Disney movies like Pocahontas (which are hardly the pinnacle of liberal education or a radical philosophy) repeatedly point out how discourses of savageness and civilization is destructive.
Hardt & Negi's book "Empire" has a lot more on this subject as well.
|
Women are not raised to be agressive. They suck at any violent game because of that.
|
I know quite a few girl gamers actually, and they get treated the same. I don't know many over the internet though.
|
Canada10951 Posts
On July 15 2011 22:05 Elzar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 21:58 Utinni wrote: How many females get to actually play against each other tournaments? Prolly very few if any... I don't get why all you guys are getting butt hurt at restrictions on tournaments.
It's a game, its for entertainment value.
People will watch, People will tell their friends... any publicity is good publicity...
These threads are so over done and pointless except to make nerds huff and puff.
Learn to enjoy the the content you are given or make your own tourney and make sure to invite calvin and hobbes. You're missing the point. Nobody complains about female only tournaments. It's not like i'm offended by it or anything, but i ask myself, why there is even a need for those tournaments? In my opinion it is implying that women can't compete with their male counterparts. Now i don't think that's the case, so why would they want to exclude themselfs from their male opponents? I just want to know why, i don't want them to get rid of those tournaments but if you ask me, there's no need for it.
Oh I absolutely think there's a need. For no other reason except for girls getting together for some competitive fun. Girl's night out? Guy's poker? (Mind you mixed poker is still better.) Point is, do females need to justify the need to play the game together? Oh, and people most certainly complain about female tournaments. Loudly and often. As often as a new thread announcing said female tournament.
Which brings me to another point that I had at one point considered turning into a stand-alone thread. Maybe everyone's right. Maybe girl's shouldn't have their own league, maybe Anna has contributed nothing to esports, maybe CheekyDuck should never have been interviewed, maybe kellymilkies should never have done the FHM photoshoot (can you think of any other recent controversies? I'm sure there was something about lil-susie), oh. and maybe Tossgirl looks like a man...
Maybe that's all true, but sometimes I wish people would spend more time being welcoming and less time being right. Everyone is so concerned about being right. Particularly that girl's never receive more attention than is their due, that if a girl dare raise their hand to identify that, yes they are female and they would like to contribute to Starcraft in whatever way they can (or just do some other side projects).... then teh internetz jumps them and strings them up. "How dare anyone even acknowledge you existence until you have macro of Flash, the multi-tasking of Bisu, the knowledge of Artosis, etc, etc." "Go back to the hole you crawled out from" we roar. "And do not return until you are a goddess of gaming."
Maybe we're right. But is it worth it? If we truly want to see gender equality, maybe being a little more welcoming would help?
|
On July 15 2011 19:52 Sablar wrote: Think top 2% of 2 000 000 players, and top 2% of 100 000, who are the best? If anyone has some evidence for a statement like "women think worse" I would really like to see it.
Equally good? But competitive play has nothing to do with the top 2%. That's the Masters League. It has to do with top 0.01%. In almost any field, that is where men outperform women. Men tend to deviate from the average much more than women do. That means there are many more highly talented males than highly talented women and many more horribly bad men than horribly bad women. Look at IQ scores. Men score a few points higher on average, but if you look at scores like 140 or 60, men outnumber women 10 to 1. (not the actual number, but look it up).
EDIT: It seems someone has already made this point and got nowhere with the deniers in this thread. The way you try to salvage your argument and get away from this fact is hilarious. There has never been a female Gauss, Ramanujan or Einstein. The closest you get is Emmy Noether, which is not very close at all. There's no cultural drive that makes you as capable as Einstein.
There is no reason to assume the male domination of the pro scene will end when women start playing games as much as men. Pro Starcraft will probably, like pro chess and mathematics, be a male thing forever.
I don't understand why people want to change things to draw in women. Do we really need them? If they're not interested in e-sports, that's their own problem.
|
On July 15 2011 23:57 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 22:05 Elzar wrote:On July 15 2011 21:58 Utinni wrote: How many females get to actually play against each other tournaments? Prolly very few if any... I don't get why all you guys are getting butt hurt at restrictions on tournaments.
It's a game, its for entertainment value.
People will watch, People will tell their friends... any publicity is good publicity...
These threads are so over done and pointless except to make nerds huff and puff.
Learn to enjoy the the content you are given or make your own tourney and make sure to invite calvin and hobbes. You're missing the point. Nobody complains about female only tournaments. It's not like i'm offended by it or anything, but i ask myself, why there is even a need for those tournaments? In my opinion it is implying that women can't compete with their male counterparts. Now i don't think that's the case, so why would they want to exclude themselfs from their male opponents? I just want to know why, i don't want them to get rid of those tournaments but if you ask me, there's no need for it. Oh I absolutely think there's a need. For no other reason except for girls getting together for some competitive fun. Girl's night out? Guy's poker? (Mind you mixed poker is still better.) Point is, do females need to justify the need to play the game together? Oh, and people most certainly complain about female tournaments. Loudly and often. As often as a new thread announcing said female tournament. Which brings me to another point that I had at one point considered turning into a stand-alone thread. Maybe everyone's right. Maybe girl's shouldn't have their own league, maybe Anna has contributed nothing to esports, maybe CheekyDuck should never have been interviewed, maybe kellymilkies should never have done the FHM photoshoot (can you think of any other recent controversies? I'm sure there was something about lil-susie), oh. and maybe Tossgirl looks like a man... Maybe that's all true, but sometimes I wish people would spend more time being welcoming and less time being right. Everyone is so concerned about being right. Particularly that girl's never receive more attention than is their due, that if a girl dare raise their hand to identify that, yes they are female and they would like to contribute to Starcraft in whatever way they can (or just do some other side projects).... then teh internetz jumps them and strings them up. "How dare anyone even acknowledge you existence until you have macro of Flash, the multi-tasking of Bisu, the knowledge of Artosis, etc, etc." "Go back to the hole you crawled out from" we roar. "And do not return until you are a goddess of gaming." Maybe we're right. But is it worth it? If we truly want to see gender equality, maybe being a little more welcoming would help?
Yea, i already realized my argumentation was wrong. I have nothing more to say about female only tournaments.
I wasn't against it in the first place, but still had a "distorted view" of the subject.
|
On July 15 2011 23:51 sailorferret wrote:Show nested quote +1. It's impossible to create a perfect test that isn't biased, and in developing the WIAS IQ test they are constantly trying to minimize the problems that inevitably exist. It's far from perfect especially in the sense that high score = high intelligence, but overall it's a test that is useful for determining which individuals are in need of help. Disregarding it as "biased" is just an easy way out and I welcome you to try to create an instrument that does the same thing and isn't biased. Do you realize that's the same reason why we shouldn't use it to make blanket statements like women are biologically less intelligent than men? My point is not that we should use unbiased tests but that we shouldn't use such tests to make generalizations of genders, races, etc... especially when the impact of that statement is to exclude certain people as a whole because they are less intelligent. Show nested quote +2. How would one do research that eliminates the possbility of cultural bias? Saying that "there is no such research" is just silly because you can't expect that, and the qualitative research regarding the degree of cultural influence is even easier to argue against. The normal discussion in this kind of research is "how much of the variability can be attributed to the environment and how much can be attributed to the individual or group". Noone is denying a cultural effect but you seem a bit radical in your approach. A lot of people are minimizing or flat out denying cultural effects of intelligence on the sexes. If you don't disagree that cultural influences effect how women or men are competitive or not then we're on the same page. If you defend it as a purely biology thing then my statements still apply. Nothing is purely nature or nurture. Neither should be presumed to be dominant. Most in this thread attribute it almost entirely to biology. @ventiri - wikipedia is not a source. Just like a forum thread is not evidence of proof either. Please increase your citation quality if you want to make quality arguments. There is no reason why some traits are considered intelligence and others are not. It's entirely arbitrary. One could argue that competition and the intelligence that "men" have, which brought us nuclear and biological weapons, terrorism, environmental destruction, etc is not intelligence at all but outright stupidity. ... AND MORE IMPORTANTLY... Show nested quote + Damn straight I think western/eastern civilization is better than hunter gathering. I live in luxury and comfort because of the work that my patriarchal ancestors did. Damn straight you do. Your ancestors perpetuated genocide, enslavement, and a bunch of other nasty things so we could exterminate savages for civilization and untold destruction. Yes, you live in luxury... at the expense of others in history and currently. The defense of civilization has been the defense of imperialism, extermination, and war for generations. Using the discourse of civilization to defend the benefit of patriarchy is absurd... unless of course the patriarchal intelligence of destruction is what we seek to uphold. Care about your planet, care about your community, care about others.... even if they appear uncivilized to you. Don't just label them as unintelligent, backwards, and less than people who live in "civilization." It's not only culturally insenstive but also, again, literally the exact defense used in every colonial campaign. Even Disney movies like Pocahontas (which are hardly the pinnacle of liberal education or a radical philosophy) repeatedly point out how discourses of savageness and civilization is destructive. Hardt & Negi's book "Empire" has a lot more on this subject as well.
Actually, wikipedia is a pretty good source, and if you don't believe what is written, you can check out the citation links at the bottom of the page.
The competition and intelligence that men have, has also brought us the internet, roads, water filtering, electricity, sewers, poetry, sculpture, literature, starcraft, solar panels and many others things that you regard as positive. Power is just a tool, one that can be used for good or for ill. Good men use it for good, while corrupt men use it for evil. Good women use it for good, while corrupt women use it for evil. I reject the idea that men are more predisposed towards evil than women. Power corrupts the corrupt.
Please don't tell me you believe the myth of the noble savage? The idea that hunter gatherer tribes are less prone to violence is utter nonsense. Western/Eastern/Middle Eastern/African/South American/Central American civilizations and "tribes" have all been responsible for atrocities. The west, due to being technologically advanced, has been better at it recently. When two competing groups go to battle, the stronger will prevail. Such is the way of the world. The conflict is everpresent, it is only a matter of whether the conflict is overt or covert.
|
United States22883 Posts
On July 15 2011 23:30 vetinari wrote: Jibba: what do you expect? Men to regard women as other men? That won't happen. Women have the opportunity to play SC2 anonymously, and get good before "coming out", if you will. Everyone has a right to expect courtesy, but respect? Respect must be earned. Why should anyone have to play anonymously and repress their identity? There's an expectation that that's what women should do, but that same expectation doesn't exist for men. Be whoever you are, and own it. NeverGG, I think that's what you're lacking more than anything else. Certainly good looks are a very useful asset (and as with any type of asset, you really shouldn't hold it against people for having it) but if you have a confident and engaging attitude, people will look past that stuff.
There's different kinds of respect. The girls aren't looking for respect as players any more than any other non-pro player (and as far as I know, none of them claim to be professionals.) They're asking for respect as human beings, to act like themselves openly and play the game they way they want to (as long as it's within the ToS.) Likewise, you certainly can hate on them for doing it (not in the LR threads, please) but it's no different than going to a Gold-only tournament and telling everyone they suck. At that point you're just being a douche bag.
EDIT: Seriously, stop talking about the advancement of early civilization. It might sound "useful" for your argument but really it has no relevance to modern Western society. The evolutionary psychology of "aggressive male hunters" is completely absurd, and SC2 hardly classifies as an aggressive activity. And if you think women lack competitive spirit or aggression, then you're really just quite ignorant.
|
On July 15 2011 10:07 Nothingtosay wrote: It is no secret that like many fields e-sports is currently a male dominated arena. While I would have a hard time believing that the vast majority of people wish for e-sports to remain this way; I believe that the actions of the community don't reflect a desire to inject more females into the culture of e-sports. Several recent events have intrigued me enough to the point that I feel that it would helpful to see what other memebers of the community feel about the matter. Please be aware that I am not personally attacking any individual in this thread especially considering the fact that they are not responsible for the actions of TL. The primary events that sparked this thread where the creation of two fan clubs that personally view as extremely premature . Namely the Lindsey Sporrer fanclub and the slayers_eve fan club. IN all honesty besides being born female what have either of these people done to warrant a fan club at all? The sporrer fanclub has 53 pages in 3 days, the day9 fan club in comparison has 134 pages and has been active for over one year. Do people not realize that the undeserved reverence and vigilant e-staring ( I use staring instead of stalking because I don't believe it has even come close to being appropriate for that term) is one of the reason why women are driven from this industry and other ones like it? If you treat women just like anyone else I guarantee more would be willing to participate in e-sports. The reason why many girls are afraid of even letting people know that they are female online is because of all the fervent attention it will bring upon them. I'm sure that the mmo players among all ave heard the female members of their guild complaining about what happens when people on their server/realm/world w/e you call it figure out that they are female. Another thing I'd like to comment on is female only tournaments such as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230697 . These do nothing but promote the belief that women cannot compete with men in e-sports which to me seems to be nothing but utter ridiculousness. E-sports are for the most part mental activities the physical requirement is not high enough that sexual dimorphism would have any significant effect. If you want more women in esports stop treating them differently. Women if you want to be treated equally then stop voluntarily segregating yourself with things such as female leagues and tournaments. Do you think things like the relatively quick fan clubs are hurting or helping the problem?
Girls will never compete with men in terms of physical abilities, no matter if it is about velocity, strength, even psychologically men are usually far ahead in terms of determination and sacrifice. Sexual dimorphism DOES matter and you cannot overcome the process of several million years of evolution with an ideology.
In real sports you can see women not doing sports which are not segregated (boxing, judo, speaking of experience), whereas segregated team sports such as soccer, basketball are quite appreciated by them. So segregation is the best way to attract the most girls, but in the end they will always be very few.
|
|
|
|