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To the OP: How difficult would it be for a guy with a bad-terrible GPA (think 3.3 ish) to break into a decent consulting firm (I am thinking ZS associates et al.)?
I am from a top school (think HYPS) and have bit unusual resume (no real internship though..)
I am pretty confident I can do well in interviews though.
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On June 27 2011 11:45 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 11:40 Ryshi wrote: I'm in this industry as a recent grad (Chartered Accounting), but it's quite depressing as I'm unable to find work.
I had only 1 interview from the big 4 accounting firms from campus recruiting, and I was unable to get in. Later I heard the recruiter (manager, not the HR) that interviewed me didn't hire a single student whereas another recruiter hired 4 students. I'm not sure was it because of bad luck that I selected that recruiter's slot or that the other 4 students were really superior. They only asked behavioral questions, although I was prepared for the questions mentioned in the OP. I will try again in september when they are recruiting.
For now, I have moved on to CFA, as that at least allows me to take exams. I'm hoping that when I pass level 1 or 2, I can land interviews easier.
If anyone can provide some comments on my progress or some tips to increase my chances of an interview that would be great. I currently just send cover letter, resume, and transcript to job posts from job sites and my university's career site. i think one thing people should realise is that over-qualification is a reality. you want to focus on the most basic skillsets that match the requirement of the employer. cover letter is important, don't bs on your resume (it will haunt you) but do embellish during interviews. i suppose it comes with practice, hope you get there mate, the market is picking up from what i heard. Thanks for the reply. By basic skill sets, do you mean soft skills listed like "Attention to detail", "Analytic", "Communication", etc.? Should I specifically list these on the resume? I do mention these in the cover letter by relating to an experience or in the description of a job of resume. Sorry for asking this question, I'm sure many websites would answer this if I just googled, but I would be more confident from your answer.
My resume is pretty honest, my cgpa is at 3.7, pretty low compared to the geniuses but it's still within top 10% of my class. I sometimes get paranoid if other people are able to land interviews because they bs on their resume? but then again, even if they did I would stick to my ethics.
I'm also quite good at excel, compared to colleagues. I can thoroughly use the vlookup stuff, pivot table, etc. I also know vba. The problem is, I did not acquire these skills from jobs but I'm self-taught (and learnt from my dad who's a programmer), so employers may feel I'm just bsing. My previous employer immediately hired me after I was tested at excel, as I was exceptional. However, I feel unable to communicate to new employers of my ability. I was thinking of including a portfolio of the programs I wrote (eg. pic of a model), but it makes the email application big for no reason.
I'm fully aware excel isn't everything to a job, perhaps all they need is someone who knows the basics.
I'm sorry to sound like I'm ranting on your blog, and also that it seems unclear of what I am asking for. Can I just ask if you know whether HR reads applications at all? I sometimes feel they don't even look at my application when I apply online. I feel my resume is quite impressive because whenever I go to a network event that looks at my resume, 70% of the time I get a call. Thanks!
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On June 27 2011 12:03 The_LiNk wrote: So in terms of travelling. Where have you consulting guys on TL gone to?
I'm being sent on-site in Singapore every two weeks and I really hate it. Traveling is the worst part of my job :/ At least I got a decent traveling allowance.
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On June 27 2011 12:03 phosphorylation wrote: To the OP: How difficult would it be for a guy with a bad-terrible GPA (think 3.3 ish) to break into a decent consulting firm (I am thinking ZS associates et al.)?
I am from a top school (think HYPS) and have bit unusual resume (no real internship though..)
I am pretty confident I can do well in interviews though.
I don't think i can help you there as i have no idea the equivalent of a 3.3GPA is in Australian terms. basic %s dictate that you need ~ 80%(high distinction) for all your university subjects to get through round 1 for all the top tiers.
On June 27 2011 12:03 The_LiNk wrote: So in terms of travelling. Where have you consulting guys on TL gone to?
i travel mainly along the east coast Australia. so Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane. Mel-Syd is the busiest air traffic route in the world! Syd-Bris is third
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My GF is a consultant based in Toronto, working for one of the top five you mentioned. She recently flew me to Beijing and soon to Mongolia because that's where her current project is.
It is nice that she gets to travel around and collect Starwood and Aeromile points, but it really sucks in that we so rarely see each other. IMO, it's really hard to have a stable relationship if you are a consultant because of the nomadic nature of the work, and it can get terrible "lonely" (according to her) because you don't have a real home, nor a proper network wherever your home may be.
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On June 27 2011 12:09 Ryshi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 11:45 Doraemon wrote:On June 27 2011 11:40 Ryshi wrote: I'm in this industry as a recent grad (Chartered Accounting), but it's quite depressing as I'm unable to find work.
I had only 1 interview from the big 4 accounting firms from campus recruiting, and I was unable to get in. Later I heard the recruiter (manager, not the HR) that interviewed me didn't hire a single student whereas another recruiter hired 4 students. I'm not sure was it because of bad luck that I selected that recruiter's slot or that the other 4 students were really superior. They only asked behavioral questions, although I was prepared for the questions mentioned in the OP. I will try again in september when they are recruiting.
For now, I have moved on to CFA, as that at least allows me to take exams. I'm hoping that when I pass level 1 or 2, I can land interviews easier.
If anyone can provide some comments on my progress or some tips to increase my chances of an interview that would be great. I currently just send cover letter, resume, and transcript to job posts from job sites and my university's career site. i think one thing people should realise is that over-qualification is a reality. you want to focus on the most basic skillsets that match the requirement of the employer. cover letter is important, don't bs on your resume (it will haunt you) but do embellish during interviews. i suppose it comes with practice, hope you get there mate, the market is picking up from what i heard. Thanks for the reply. By basic skill sets, do you mean soft skills listed like "Attention to detail", "Analytic", "Communication", etc.? Should I specifically list these on the resume? I do mention these in the cover letter by relating to an experience or in the description of a job of resume. Sorry for asking this question, I'm sure many websites would answer this if I just googled, but I would be more confident from your answer. Can I just ask if you know whether HR reads applications at all? I sometimes feel they don't even look at my application when I apply online. I feel my resume is quite impressive because whenever I go to a network event that looks at my resume, 70% of the time I get a call. Thanks!
depends on how large the firm is. boutique firms hire very specifically so they will read each applicants cover letter and resume, big firms will at time outsource HR and the first cut off point is your mark and not your cover letter. it really depends
by basic skills i mean excel skills, developing solutions, application of assumptions, your mannerism and enthusiasm during interviews. don't worry too much about your accreditation, worry about how you are perceived. you want them to know that you are capable and you will fit in.
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On June 27 2011 12:50 Cambium wrote: My GF is a consultant based in Toronto, working for one of the top five you mentioned. She recently flew me to Beijing and soon to Mongolia because that's where her current project is.
It is nice that she gets to travel around and collect Starwood and Aeromile points, but it really sucks in that we so rarely see each other. IMO, it's really hard to have a stable relationship if you are a consultant because of the nomadic nature of the work, and it can get terrible "lonely" (according to her) because you don't have a real home, nor a proper network wherever your home may be.
yep. that's exactly what i meant by the movie "up in the air"
consultancy isn't a career you really want when you have a family.
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Thanks, I appreciate your response =)
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Consultants, for when your employees are under trained or untrustworthy. You guys have the most interesting jobs, a friend of mine joined a consulting firm and one month he was working with Halliburton, and the next he was working with Walmart. Never a dull day in the life of a consultant, plus you get a LOT of experience and contacts for when you want to become upper level management. I'm jealous!
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On June 27 2011 13:02 Endymion wrote: Consultants, for when your employees are under trained or untrustworthy. You guys have the most interesting jobs, a friend of mine joined a consulting firm and one month he was working with Halliburton, and the next he was working with Walmart. Never a dull day in the life of a consultant, plus you get a LOT of experience and contacts for when you want to become upper level management. I'm jealous!
haha. you mentioned all the upside! but like others have said, there are some extreme downsides to it but working in all the various industries is definitely a plus!
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In terms of the top consulting companies OP mentioned, in America they only accept top Ivy (very hard to get in from bottom Ivy), MIT, Stanford. For regional offices they accept state schools (ie. U Texas for Dallas, Berkeley for Cali). One of the things that makes consultants so valuable is the air of knowledge, so having well educated people definitely helps. In a sense that's almost everything consultants bank on because many are career consultants and do not have any actual industry experience. So basically you have factory owners asking consultants how to improve factories, but they never worked in factories themselves. It takes the comfort of believing well educated folks will know better than you, similar to how Americans believe in Obama because he gives off the impression of being well educated.
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ahhaa. you are right sir we promote ourselves as all-knowing but in many instances some of us never had experience in that particular industry
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On June 27 2011 18:51 Doraemon wrote:ahhaa. you are right sir we promote ourselves as all-knowing but in many instances some of us never had experience in that particular industry
Which is why I never understand why your industry exists, you would think "well-educated" people would already be at the top of the food chain and wouldn't have to outsource for opinions on ventures or investments. My limited experience (from professors and my parents) with your brethren is that you're paid an exorbitant amount of money to come in to an exec's office after 2 weeks of learning an industry, then present a business plan (which more or less usually coincides with the exec's plan before he hired you). I mean I know it's always great to get a second opinion, but why not just ask lower down on the food chain in the company rather than asking some random person with a Harvard or Princeton education. I guess some executives use consultants more than others, I couldn't see myself hiring one though (when I'm in a position anywhere close to that power of course, this is like consulting a business student on a consultant's role in the corporate jungle t.t)
Do you find that most companies rehire consultants, or would they just prefer to hire the consultant straight onto staff?
Also, are you planning on sticking with the consultant track, or are you planning on eventually accepting an invitation to a big corporation? Why?
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Zurich15306 Posts
On June 27 2011 12:03 The_LiNk wrote: So in terms of travelling. Where have you consulting guys on TL gone to? For business most of my projects are still in Germany. To give you an idea I drive about 60k km a year within Germany. I have been to the US, England, Saudi, Bahrain, and the UAE as well.
I also do very short jobs remotely over phone/remote login with customers all over Europe (so far France, Sweden, Netherlands, Spain, Finnland, Switzerland, Austria, probably more), mostly squeezed inbetween bigger projects.
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A coworker at my past job got hired at Gemini Consulting. He was celebrating non-stop, even automatically got offered a Visa Infinite card (minim salary advised: 100 000€/year). Not bad at 28 years old.
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On June 27 2011 19:16 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 18:51 Doraemon wrote:ahhaa. you are right sir we promote ourselves as all-knowing but in many instances some of us never had experience in that particular industry Which is why I never understand why your industry exists, you would think "well-educated" people would already be at the top of the food chain and wouldn't have to outsource for opinions on ventures or investments. My limited experience (from professors and my parents) with your brethren is that you're paid an exorbitant amount of money to come in to an exec's office after 2 weeks of learning an industry, then present a business plan (which more or less usually coincides with the exec's plan before he hired you). I mean I know it's always great to get a second opinion, but why not just ask lower down on the food chain in the company rather than asking some random person with a Harvard or Princeton education. I guess some executives use consultants more than others, I couldn't see myself hiring one though (when I'm in a position anywhere close to that power of course, this is like consulting a business student on a consultant's role in the corporate jungle t.t)
This is the same impression i got from the consultants i met (software industry). Zero practical knowledge, zero experience but excellent in marketing themselves and their company. One of my predecessors left me several horribly developed projects when he got another, highly paid job as consultant and i can only feel for those that take any suggestions from him and drive their projects/companies into the next wall.
Too bad i'm an honest person -.-
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On June 27 2011 19:16 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 18:51 Doraemon wrote:ahhaa. you are right sir we promote ourselves as all-knowing but in many instances some of us never had experience in that particular industry Which is why I never understand why your industry exists, you would think "well-educated" people would already be at the top of the food chain and wouldn't have to outsource for opinions on ventures or investments. My limited experience (from professors and my parents) with your brethren is that you're paid an exorbitant amount of money to come in to an exec's office after 2 weeks of learning an industry, then present a business plan (which more or less usually coincides with the exec's plan before he hired you). I mean I know it's always great to get a second opinion, but why not just ask lower down on the food chain in the company rather than asking some random person with a Harvard or Princeton education. I guess some executives use consultants more than others, I couldn't see myself hiring one though (when I'm in a position anywhere close to that power of course, this is like consulting a business student on a consultant's role in the corporate jungle t.t) Do you find that most companies rehire consultants, or would they just prefer to hire the consultant straight onto staff? Also, are you planning on sticking with the consultant track, or are you planning on eventually accepting an invitation to a big corporation? Why?
what your professors and parents described is absolutely correct. To sum up my view of why corporates need consultants is this: senior managements needs to show to the board that they have ideas and ability to drive initiatives, there's none better than externals (consultants) to validate a CEO's opinions on something and win cookie points with the chairman. In essence, we are paid to say whatever will satisfy the project sponsor, which is the primary reason we get hired in the first place
what do you mean by rehire consultants? if you mean for phase 2 implementation? if so then it depends how well you convinced the company needs your firm for it. if you mean by poaching consultants into a full time industry role then that definitely happens, more than you would think. i've had 2 job offers in the last 6 months already.
i'm sticking with consulting until i get sick of it and/or i have enough experience to go into any industry i want. right now, industry looks like a terrible place and i wouldn't want to touch the politics with a 10 foot pole
On June 27 2011 20:07 Kukaracha wrote: A coworker at my past job got hired at Gemini Consulting. He was celebrating non-stop, even automatically got offered a Visa Infinite card (minim salary advised: 100 000€/year). Not bad at 28 years old.
actually having a high credit limit is bad for your loan capacity, i told my bank to reduce my cc limit to as low as possible
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On June 27 2011 21:10 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 19:16 Endymion wrote:On June 27 2011 18:51 Doraemon wrote:ahhaa. you are right sir we promote ourselves as all-knowing but in many instances some of us never had experience in that particular industry Which is why I never understand why your industry exists, you would think "well-educated" people would already be at the top of the food chain and wouldn't have to outsource for opinions on ventures or investments. My limited experience (from professors and my parents) with your brethren is that you're paid an exorbitant amount of money to come in to an exec's office after 2 weeks of learning an industry, then present a business plan (which more or less usually coincides with the exec's plan before he hired you). I mean I know it's always great to get a second opinion, but why not just ask lower down on the food chain in the company rather than asking some random person with a Harvard or Princeton education. I guess some executives use consultants more than others, I couldn't see myself hiring one though (when I'm in a position anywhere close to that power of course, this is like consulting a business student on a consultant's role in the corporate jungle t.t) This is the same impression i got from the consultants i met (software industry). Zero practical knowledge, zero experience but excellent in marketing themselves and their company. One of my predecessors left me several horribly developed projects when he got another, highly paid job as consultant and i can only feel for those that take any suggestions from him and drive their projects/companies into the next wall. Too bad i'm an honest person -.-
heh, very common to perceive yourself as smarter than your superior, everyone does it. however, one thing i have seen and i think should be reverberated is:
you need to make friends with the right people or else you'll never climb that ladder. i have seen many instances where the CEO doesn't like a particularly staff regardless of his/her competency and that's where it ends. network well and get on the good books of the key players is the only way to go.
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On June 27 2011 21:25 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 21:10 Morfildur wrote:On June 27 2011 19:16 Endymion wrote:On June 27 2011 18:51 Doraemon wrote:ahhaa. you are right sir we promote ourselves as all-knowing but in many instances some of us never had experience in that particular industry Which is why I never understand why your industry exists, you would think "well-educated" people would already be at the top of the food chain and wouldn't have to outsource for opinions on ventures or investments. My limited experience (from professors and my parents) with your brethren is that you're paid an exorbitant amount of money to come in to an exec's office after 2 weeks of learning an industry, then present a business plan (which more or less usually coincides with the exec's plan before he hired you). I mean I know it's always great to get a second opinion, but why not just ask lower down on the food chain in the company rather than asking some random person with a Harvard or Princeton education. I guess some executives use consultants more than others, I couldn't see myself hiring one though (when I'm in a position anywhere close to that power of course, this is like consulting a business student on a consultant's role in the corporate jungle t.t) This is the same impression i got from the consultants i met (software industry). Zero practical knowledge, zero experience but excellent in marketing themselves and their company. One of my predecessors left me several horribly developed projects when he got another, highly paid job as consultant and i can only feel for those that take any suggestions from him and drive their projects/companies into the next wall. Too bad i'm an honest person -.- heh, very common to perceive yourself as smarter than your superior, everyone does it. however, one thing i have seen and i think should be reverberated is: you need to make friends with the right people or else you'll never climb that ladder. i have seen many instances where the CEO doesn't like a particularly staff regardless of his/her competency and that's where it ends. network well and get on the good books of the key players is the only way to go.
That is where the "honest person" comes into play :p
If my superior or one of my colleagues has a stupid idea again, i suggest better solutions, even if it is in front of the other programmers. Doesn't make me friends, might cost my job someday, but it helps keep my professional pride intact and brings the company forward. In the time i work here, the number of new bugs was reduced by a lot and we developed more features with a better architecture than in the years before i was in the company. I also started several initiatives to improve quality (development systems/free programming book library/a dedicated tester/...) eventhough i constantly run into a wall when i argue with my superiors about giving the programmers training because their 10-15 year old knowledge is almost useless these days.
I sometimes wish i was a consultant so they would listen and do the stuff i suggest instead of me having to introduce everything through the backdoor. Now if i only had a say in the recruiting so they wouldn't hire people who don't know the difference between "for" and "if", who don't try to link javascript into the website by using PHPs "include" and who don't try to assign a javascript variable to a PHP variable (real example i fixed a few weeks ago: <?php $url = document.href; ?>).
Sorry for the almost completely off-topic rant, having an annoying day at work again and the arguments i wanted to bring when i clicked on "reply" got eaten by anger -.-
PS: Can some of you consultants recommend the company i work for to promote me so i can fix this stuff? :p
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On June 27 2011 21:53 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 21:25 Doraemon wrote:On June 27 2011 21:10 Morfildur wrote:On June 27 2011 19:16 Endymion wrote:On June 27 2011 18:51 Doraemon wrote:ahhaa. you are right sir we promote ourselves as all-knowing but in many instances some of us never had experience in that particular industry Which is why I never understand why your industry exists, you would think "well-educated" people would already be at the top of the food chain and wouldn't have to outsource for opinions on ventures or investments. My limited experience (from professors and my parents) with your brethren is that you're paid an exorbitant amount of money to come in to an exec's office after 2 weeks of learning an industry, then present a business plan (which more or less usually coincides with the exec's plan before he hired you). I mean I know it's always great to get a second opinion, but why not just ask lower down on the food chain in the company rather than asking some random person with a Harvard or Princeton education. I guess some executives use consultants more than others, I couldn't see myself hiring one though (when I'm in a position anywhere close to that power of course, this is like consulting a business student on a consultant's role in the corporate jungle t.t) This is the same impression i got from the consultants i met (software industry). Zero practical knowledge, zero experience but excellent in marketing themselves and their company. One of my predecessors left me several horribly developed projects when he got another, highly paid job as consultant and i can only feel for those that take any suggestions from him and drive their projects/companies into the next wall. Too bad i'm an honest person -.- heh, very common to perceive yourself as smarter than your superior, everyone does it. however, one thing i have seen and i think should be reverberated is: you need to make friends with the right people or else you'll never climb that ladder. i have seen many instances where the CEO doesn't like a particularly staff regardless of his/her competency and that's where it ends. network well and get on the good books of the key players is the only way to go. That is where the "honest person" comes into play :p If my superior or one of my colleagues has a stupid idea again, i suggest better solutions, even if it is in front of the other programmers. Doesn't make me friends, might cost my job someday, but it helps keep my professional pride intact and brings the company forward. In the time i work here, the number of new bugs was reduced by a lot and we developed more features with a better architecture than in the years before i was in the company. I also started several initiatives to improve quality (development systems/free programming book library/a dedicated tester/...) eventhough i constantly run into a wall when i argue with my superiors about giving the programmers training because their 10-15 year old knowledge is almost useless these days. I sometimes wish i was a consultant so they would listen and do the stuff i suggest instead of me having to introduce everything through the backdoor. Now if i only had a say in the recruiting so they wouldn't hire people who don't know the difference between "for" and "if", who don't try to link javascript into the website by using PHPs "include" and who don't try to assign a javascript variable to a PHP variable (real example i fixed a few weeks ago: <?php $url = document.href; ?>). Sorry for the almost completely off-topic rant, having an annoying day at work again and the arguments i wanted to bring when i clicked on "reply" got eaten by anger -.- PS: Can some of you consultants recommend the company i work for to promote me so i can fix this stuff? :p
The business world isn't so black and white. A CEO isn't the smartest person in the company, he's the one who leads the company's direction to improve shareholder value. That means it's a balancing act with the board of directors, investors, research analysts, etc. Having reassurance from outside parties, especially one that has the appearance of knowledge, is extremely valuable.
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