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Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 00:14:18
August 18 2012 03:13 GMT
#1
barrin or someone can remove the WIP in the title if they want.

Current Version: 1.0.
+ Show Spoiler +
&#91;image loading&#93;


&#91;image loading&#93;

Aesthetics completed thanks to RFDaemoniac!
+ Show Spoiler +
&#91;image loading&#93;
&#91;image loading&#93;



Overview 0.0.1: + Show Spoiler +
&#91;image loading&#93;


Overview 0.0.2: + Show Spoiler +
&#91;image loading&#93;


Overview 0.1.0: + Show Spoiler +
&#91;image loading&#93;


Overview 0.2.0: + Show Spoiler +
&#91;image loading&#93;


Overview 0.2.1: + Show Spoiler +
&#91;image loading&#93;


Overview 0.2.2: + Show Spoiler +
&#91;image loading&#93;


Overview 0.2.3: + Show Spoiler +
&#91;image loading&#93;


Aesthetics: + Show Spoiler +
Nothing yet.. TT Need to access map in-game.


Bounds: 140x148

Changelog:
0.0.2:
+ Show Spoiler +

-Re-arranged mineral line of third.


0.1.0:
+ Show Spoiler +

-Made choke into third smaller
-Pushed center bases back
-Made middle more chokey
-Removed high ground 6th
-Added an island.
-Added LoS blockers to choke into third
-Narrowed choke into natural, natural is still walled off the same.
-Added watchtowers.
-Added small cliff above 4th base.


0.2.0:
+ Show Spoiler +
-Narrowed choke into vertical fourth base
-Added lots of high ground into center
-Added second choke into third blocked by rocks
-Moved watchtowers


0.2.1:
+ Show Spoiler +
[Experimental] -Added backdoor passage behind fourth base
-Cleared up center a bit
-Did not remove island.


0.2.2:
+ Show Spoiler +
-Touched up a few areas
-Removed mineral field blockers from center, narrowed entire passage slightly to compensate.


0.2.3:
+ Show Spoiler +
-Fixed destructible rocks at third so that small units can not pass them (will require more testing?)
-Fixed mineral fields at 4th and island bases so that a town hall can be placed optimally
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
Coppermantis
Profile Joined June 2012
United States845 Posts
August 18 2012 04:32 GMT
#2
Lots of open space in the center. I think it could use a little more chokieness around what I assume is the third base. On a different note, I like how you made the header with terrain. Cool idea, I might try it for one of my threads.
Insomni7
Profile Joined June 2011
667 Posts
August 18 2012 04:47 GMT
#3
Perhaps when you get around to textures and doodads, you could make little doodad clumps to make the center feel less open as on Ohana. Also if I was you I would rotate the minerals at the third so their back was to the map boundary. It isn't that having a siegable third min line is a bad thing in every situation, but also considering how far away that third is and also how in, say, a tvt a terran can push down from the top right and siege the mineral line almost as an afterthought, I would prefer to move the minerals a bit. Also it would decrease the distance workers have to go before they start mining so that it would be more similar to daybreak at an eyeball.
Never Forget.
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
August 18 2012 13:23 GMT
#4
On August 18 2012 13:32 Coppermantis wrote:
Lots of open space in the center. I think it could use a little more chokieness around what I assume is the third base.

The third is on the left?


On August 18 2012 13:47 Insomni7 wrote:
Perhaps when you get around to textures and doodads, you could make little doodad clumps to make the center feel less open as on Ohana. Also if I was you I would rotate the minerals at the third so their back was to the map boundary. It isn't that having a siegable third min line is a bad thing in every situation, but also considering how far away that third is and also how in, say, a tvt a terran can push down from the top right and siege the mineral line almost as an afterthought, I would prefer to move the minerals a bit. Also it would decrease the distance workers have to go before they start mining so that it would be more similar to daybreak at an eyeball.

Thank you for the feedback, I will change that very soom™.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
August 18 2012 13:30 GMT
#5
fixed third
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
KapsyL
Profile Joined November 2011
Sweden704 Posts
August 18 2012 17:24 GMT
#6
feels super open
Jurg Jurg Jurg
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
August 18 2012 18:13 GMT
#7
I actually really like it. You should delete the highground 6th and tuck the half base a bit backwards, closer to the main.

If you do that, I would be honored to do some aesthetics. ^_^
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2141 Posts
August 18 2012 18:16 GMT
#8
In TvZ if T manages to siege up on that ridge between the nat and third it will be rather difficult for Z to break. Not sure if this is a problem that needs to be fixed or if it's just something that zergs will have to take into consideration and try to defend before terrans get to that spot.
vibeo gane,
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
August 18 2012 18:17 GMT
#9
On August 19 2012 03:16 -NegativeZero- wrote:
In TvZ if T manages to siege up on that ridge between the nat and third it will be rather difficult for Z to break. Not sure if this is a problem that needs to be fixed or if it's just something that zergs will have to take into consideration and try to defend before terrans get to that spot.


If the zerg doesn´t have a ton of creep all over that he deserves to lose. And if a terran manages to siege there anyway he has already won.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
Meerel
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany713 Posts
August 18 2012 18:45 GMT
#10
your getting better
SDMF
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
August 18 2012 20:15 GMT
#11
On August 19 2012 03:45 Terranlover wrote:
your getting better


I agree!

The 4th/5th base need work to make them more stable, less base-tradey. Right now they are open and towards the opponent, so it's easier to counter than defend.

No towers?

The 3rd base is too open and far away to be a viable PvZ 3rd. There is plenty of space to attack it via the high ground alone. I would shrink the outer low ground path down to a very narrow choke that has LosB to prevent walling it with a single 3x3. This would make the high ground the powerful defensive position it should be without sacrificing some 2prong/runby potential -- the concept of the 3rd is very cool and the distance is just right I think, it's just a little too hard right now (mostly from openness and wide entrances).

The open space can be dotted with clumps to micro around, or maybe you can add some more high ground structure or additional large negative space elements. It will depend on what you do with the corners. The 4th especially should be tucked further back, or it should be much more protected from a direct route from the enemy natural and center 4th.

Good concept keep working on it. ^^
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Coppermantis
Profile Joined June 2012
United States845 Posts
August 18 2012 21:04 GMT
#12
Oh, so the open base was the fourth. I was just guessing based on proximity. Still, it needs to be less open. Far too exposed.
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-18 21:15:29
August 18 2012 21:14 GMT
#13
On August 19 2012 02:24 KapsyL wrote:
feels super open


On August 19 2012 06:04 Coppermantis wrote:
Oh, so the open base was the fourth. I was just guessing based on proximity. Still, it needs to be less open. Far too exposed.

How should I go about doing this?
edit: Heh, it was answered later on.

I actually really like it. You should delete the highground 6th and tuck the half base a bit backwards, closer to the main.

If you do that, I would be honored to do some aesthetics. ^_^

Will do, thanks!

On August 19 2012 03:17 Aunvilgod wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2012 03:16 -NegativeZero- wrote:
In TvZ if T manages to siege up on that ridge between the nat and third it will be rather difficult for Z to break. Not sure if this is a problem that needs to be fixed or if it's just something that zergs will have to take into consideration and try to defend before terrans get to that spot.


If the zerg doesn´t have a ton of creep all over that he deserves to lose. And if a terran manages to siege there anyway he has already won.

Pretty much, and if a terran does that before zerg can get creep there he can't have enough to hold it.

On August 19 2012 03:45 Terranlover wrote:
your getting better

<3

On August 19 2012 05:15 EatThePath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2012 03:45 Terranlover wrote:
your getting better


I agree!

The 4th/5th base need work to make them more stable, less base-tradey. Right now they are open and towards the opponent, so it's easier to counter than defend.


I suppose they are pretty exposed.

No towers?

Where should I put some? The center?

The 3rd base is too open and far away to be a viable PvZ 3rd. There is plenty of space to attack it via the high ground alone. I would shrink the outer low ground path down to a very narrow choke that has LosB to prevent walling it with a single 3x3. This would make the high ground the powerful defensive position it should be without sacrificing some 2prong/runby potential -- the concept of the 3rd is very cool and the distance is just right I think, it's just a little too hard right now (mostly from openness and wide entrances).

That is a very good idea. Will do.

The open space can be dotted with clumps to micro around, or maybe you can add some more high ground structure or additional large negative space elements. It will depend on what you do with the corners. The 4th especially should be tucked further back, or it should be much more protected from a direct route from the enemy natural and center 4th.

Not sure how I'll fix the center base (that is what you are referring to right). I'll add some clumps.

Thank you everyone! :D
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
August 18 2012 21:55 GMT
#14
Updated, but I'm not so sure about all the changes.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-18 23:02:12
August 18 2012 23:00 GMT
#15
On August 19 2012 06:14 TehTemplar wrote:
Show nested quote +
The open space can be dotted with clumps to micro around, or maybe you can add some more high ground structure or additional large negative space elements. It will depend on what you do with the corners. The 4th especially should be tucked further back, or it should be much more protected from a direct route from the enemy natural and center 4th.

Not sure how I'll fix the center base (that is what you are referring to right). I'll add some clumps.

Actually I meant the vertical 4th. What I mean is that if you take the 4th along the edge from your 3rd, if you want to defend it with your army, you are now completely across the map from your natural. The distance is about the same between the enemy's natural and your 4th as your own natural and your 4th. Along with the openness, it means that you have to have perfect scouting to ever have a hope of keeping your 4th base, unless you're really far ahead anyway.

On top of that, the enemy can expand towards your 4th by taking the middle base. That's really bad if you're zerg and your 4th and 5th are both "countered" by one enemy position. Now you have an island, which sort of mitigates the extent of the problem but the 4th is still as bad if not worse because it's even more open. I'd like to see some kind of intervening terrain between the edge 4th and the center of the map. And I'd like the distance increased between the edge 4th and the enemy's side.

About towers, I was just curious if you left them out for a reason, since such an open map (originally) seemed like the kind that needs towers to make the space manageable. If you put them close on either side of the rocks, I think it makes center control too strong since you could easily hold both towers and see most of all the routes across the map. Maybe they can be pulled further away from the rocks? Or even go on the outside of the high ground, giving a sort of Belshir Beach effect.

This is all my opinion, if you have contrary thoughts I am more voicing this for discussion as much as "do this to fix it". ^^
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
DigitalD[562]
Profile Joined April 2010
United States80 Posts
August 19 2012 02:15 GMT
#16
I came up with a couple of ideas for the center to reduce the extreame openness.

The first is more conservative, with a simple high dividing up the map with a few ramps. Drocks remain to open up the map in the mid game.

[image loading]

This second one is a bit of a stretch but it's basically the first idea but the center high ground connects from the third bases. The thirds may also need to be raised to high ground to avoid shenanigans with blink stalkers before the obs gets out. The purple area I'm not to sure about. Maybe a lowground area like in the previous image. Or two ramps on either side of the high ground blocked by rocks.

[image loading]
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
August 19 2012 10:27 GMT
#17
IF you make highgrounds in the center please make sure they are not too chokey. The way DigitalD suggests them to be is way too choked. I think an Antiga-style highground could be good. Just make sure that the ramps leading to that highground are at least 3x you main ramps size.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
AssyrianKing
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia2115 Posts
August 19 2012 12:04 GMT
#18
If I was a zerg I use a Roach/Bling/Ling style as I would love to draw the Terran out to his third, get a great concave while possibly dropping the main
John 15:13
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
August 19 2012 13:57 GMT
#19
Actually I meant the vertical 4th. What I mean is that if you take the 4th along the edge from your 3rd, if you want to defend it with your army, you are now completely across the map from your natural. The distance is about the same between the enemy's natural and your 4th as your own natural and your 4th. Along with the openness, it means that you have to have perfect scouting to ever have a hope of keeping your 4th base, unless you're really far ahead anyway.

I'm currently making it easier to get and defend the fourth base, hopefully it will be enough.


On top of that, the enemy can expand towards your 4th by taking the middle base. That's really bad if you're zerg and your 4th and 5th are both "countered" by one enemy position. Now you have an island, which sort of mitigates the extent of the problem but the 4th is still as bad if not worse because it's even more open. I'd like to see some kind of intervening terrain between the edge 4th and the center of the map. And I'd like the distance increased between the edge 4th and the enemy's side.

If the terran is threatening the fourth through the center base, the zerg has the option to draw forces away by backstabbing the natural, or (s)he can easily get a huge concave on the center base.


About towers, I was just curious if you left them out for a reason, since such an open map (originally) seemed like the kind that needs towers to make the space manageable. If you put them close on either side of the rocks, I think it makes center control too strong since you could easily hold both towers and see most of all the routes across the map. Maybe they can be pulled further away from the rocks? Or even go on the outside of the high ground, giving a sort of Belshir Beach effect.

I agree that having them in the center is a bit too powerful once both are controlled by one player.
I am currently trying to find a good location, but they are all really weird or useless spots, or too close to the main.


On August 19 2012 11:15 DigitalD[562] wrote:
I came up with a couple of ideas for the center to reduce the extreame openness.

The first is more conservative, with a simple high dividing up the map with a few ramps. Drocks remain to open up the map in the mid game.

[image loading]

This second one is a bit of a stretch but it's basically the first idea but the center high ground connects from the third bases. The thirds may also need to be raised to high ground to avoid shenanigans with blink stalkers before the obs gets out. The purple area I'm not to sure about. Maybe a lowground area like in the previous image. Or two ramps on either side of the high ground blocked by rocks.

[image loading]

I agree with aunvilgod on this one, those ramps are too narrow. I do like the idea though :D
I'm currently considering a couple of options but I'll probably work on making the center highground later.

On August 19 2012 21:04 PiPoGevy wrote:
If I was a zerg I use a Roach/Bling/Ling style as I would love to draw the Terran out to his third, get a great concave while possibly dropping the main

It isn't that easy..
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
August 19 2012 15:32 GMT
#20
Update
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
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