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In my opinion there are three maps in the ladder pool that absolutely without a doubt have to go. Not because I think they are imbalanced or dumb or whatever but for the amount of time they have been there. This makes me wonder which maps in the ladder pool do a majority of people think need to go. This is not meant to turn into an argument about whether maps are imbalanced. It has been clear that if the community makes enough noise about something Blizzard responds eventually.
This is going to be kept simple. Vote yes or no whether you think a map should go. It doesn't matter why for the purposes here. It is strictly your opinion. You should then post what you think should be added to the ladder. Then, go forth and make a bunch of noise about it wherever you can that Blizzard might see it. Their forum is a good place to start. I am going to link this on Blizzard's forum when we get a sufficient amount of votes to make the point.
The followiing list shows since which season a map has been in the pool. (According to liquipedia)
Tal'Darim Altar: Season 1
Shakuras Plateau: Season 1
Entombed Valley: Season 5
Condemned Ridge: Season 8
Antiga Shipyard: Season 3
Ohana LE: Season 7
Daybreak LE: Season 7
Cloud Kingdom LE: Season 6
UPDATE - I have received news unofficially that this topic might be discussed on the next inside the game episode. So look for that and let's hope it will help something get done.
Poll: Tal'Darim Altar needs to go?Yes (1079) 90% No (116) 10% 1195 total votes Your vote: Tal'Darim Altar needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Shakuras Plateau needs to go?Yes (756) 67% No (365) 33% 1121 total votes Your vote: Shakuras Plateau needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Entombed Valley needs to go?No (566) 57% Yes (433) 43% 999 total votes Your vote: Entombed Valley needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Condemned Ridge needs to go?Yes (753) 77% No (222) 23% 975 total votes Your vote: Condemned Ridge needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Antiga Shipyard needs to go?No (561) 52% Yes (525) 48% 1086 total votes Your vote: Antiga Shipyard needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Ohana LE needs to go?No (797) 84% Yes (157) 16% 954 total votes Your vote: Ohana LE needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Daybreak LE needs to go?No (836) 89% Yes (107) 11% 943 total votes Your vote: Daybreak LE needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Cloud Kingdom LE needs to go?No (767) 80% Yes (186) 20% 953 total votes Your vote: Cloud Kingdom LE needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Tell me what you think should be added in. Check out possibilities here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354253
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Tal'Darim, Shakuras and Antiga are all quite bad and very old. They should be the next ones to go, imo.
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How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps.
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On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps.
Are you a Zerg player, by chance?
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Canada10567 Posts
On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps.
IDK, but I think it was somehow the perfect combination of abusive things all races could do to each other on that map in particular. It's not an imbalanced map(it's actually the most balanced map in the history of SCII, and possibly even in BW). Only real problem I have with TDA was PvP. PvP on any rampless map is just a BO/microfest.
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On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance?
Im a protoss and agree with this 100% these maps are just plain awful, Anitga is the most unfair pvt map in the pool.
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On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps.
Pretty much. I'm sure Blizzard would like tournaments to feature at least one Blizzard map.
Back to the topic, I don't understand how or why TDA and Shakuras Plateau even still appear in tournaments. Its somewhat acceptable for them to still be in the ladder pool since tournaments still use them. However, these two definitely need to go in tournament play and ladder play. Those are the only 2 I think absolutely need to go. Next up for removal would be Condemned, Antiga, and Entombed. I wonder when we'll see the next great community map. We haven't really had a GREAT one come out since Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom. Whirlwind is pretty meh. That other new ESV Muspelheim or whatever is pretty meh.
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Just to start off, my opinion is bias as a mapmaker, because I almost always like to see new maps.
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TalDarim can go. It's been used for too long, the flat choke ruins PvP, the rocks at the third don't fit the PvZ metagame, the entire map is too large.
Shakuras Plateau can go. It has proven to be imbalanced in PvT and PvZ, it has been used for far too long, and the map design was never that great in the first place because of the tiny choked center and nearly useless semi-island space that takes up 1/4 of the map.
Entombed Valley is decent and still contributes to the development of today's metagame, but it is an oddball for PvZ because 12min roach max doesn't work due to the small ramps. The most notable problems with the map imo are the terrible semi-islands, the useless "tasteless backdoor" pathways, and the imbalanced close positions.
Condembed ridge can go. The proportions are off in a lot of ways- the main is too small, the third is too open, and the map has way too much wasted space.
Antiga Shipyard can go. It has done its part in SC2, but now the positional imbalance, hard-to-break center, and nearly impossible fourth bases need to go.
Ohana LE can stay. It is still a playable/balanced/well-designed map and hasn't been used nearly as long as the others. However, it is getting to its time too I believe.
Daybreak LE is inbetween staying and going for me  . I never liked the split-map design and limited pathing options of the map. Making the center base 2gas also messed up a lot of the integrity to the map design.
Cloud Kingdom LE can stay. It is a very well made map, it is mostly balanced (yes, it needs some adjustment for PvT it seems), and the metagame is still evolving on it. Also games haven't gotten stale yet since it is relatively new.
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I've been really wanting somebody to post something like this, because I agree that the map pool has gotten very stale. The first TLMC is responsible for getting Cloud Kingdom and Ohana into competitive play, and in some ways Daybreak since it spurred Blizzard to be active in adding community maps to ladder. So please another TLMC would be a great thing for SC2!!!!
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Tal Darim, Daybreak, Antiga, and i guess Shakuras can go.
Cloud Kingdom i'm kinda eh about, but ohana, condemned, and entombed i like :D
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Shakuras is so bad. Every TvP is a blink all-in so I just vetoed it. TDA is okay, but it's time for a new map.
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Canada16217 Posts
tal'darim, antiga,shakuras should all be replaced.
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Antiga would be decent if it was forced crossed. tal darim and shakuras are pretty shit and need to be replaced.
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I just hope they don't keep making big maps because its cool. The maps should be around roughly the same size to keep the balance regarding warpgates, zergs insanely mobile army and medivacs.
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Tal'Darim, and Shakuras definitely need to be honorably discharged.
I like that phrase as opposed to "go" because while I don't particularly dislike either of the maps, they do feel old and I'd rather taste some new maps versus playing on these for another season.
Antiga and Entombed are starting to feel dated too, and the fact that virtually EVERY tournament has an edited version of them that forces cross spawns I think says that if it's going to stay it should be edited..
I don't particularly LIKE Cloud Kingdom, but I don't see any reason it should leave the map pool. It still feels fresh enough.
Ohana and Daybreak should stay.
Condemned Ridge, I'm definitely in the minority in saying that I enjoy playing on. It's very different from any other map currently in the pool and I think that's a good thing. I don't want it gone, not just yet anyway. It's good enough of a map to warrant another season at least, it shouldn't go the way of Arid Plateau, or Slag Pits that were so bad they didn't last more than one season. Condemned Ridge is a better map than that.
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I would encourage everyone here to visit the custom maps section of our forums. There are many great maps there which haven't seen the light of day. I'm not sure it is realistic to hope for Blizzard to draw never before seen maps out of this forum, but more community maps like muspelheim (used in the GSL) would be fantastic to replace a map like tal'darim altar.
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Antiga worst map in current map pool (aka impossible to take 4th as P)
also Tal'Darim
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On July 19 2012 14:57 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance? Im a protoss and agree with this 100% these maps are just plain awful, Anitga is the most unfair pvt map in the pool.
Obviously you're forgetting the 70% Protoss ladder win rate in TvP on Cloud Kingdom.
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On July 19 2012 15:36 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:57 jcroisdale wrote:On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance? Im a protoss and agree with this 100% these maps are just plain awful, Anitga is the most unfair pvt map in the pool. Obviously you're forgetting the 70% Protoss ladder win rate in TvP on Cloud Kingdom.
Yes, but that takes into consideration of all leagues, including broze-diamond...which doesn't really matter at all. Show us the stats for master-pro and it's most likely a different story.
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TDA and condemned need to go for sure, maybe shakuras too imo
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On July 19 2012 14:57 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance? Im a protoss and agree with this 100% these maps are just plain awful, Anitga is the most unfair pvt map in the pool.
How can you say that. If you want to talk about unfair PvT look at cloud kingdom where terran has a 30% winrate
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EPT
