|
In my opinion there are three maps in the ladder pool that absolutely without a doubt have to go. Not because I think they are imbalanced or dumb or whatever but for the amount of time they have been there. This makes me wonder which maps in the ladder pool do a majority of people think need to go. This is not meant to turn into an argument about whether maps are imbalanced. It has been clear that if the community makes enough noise about something Blizzard responds eventually.
This is going to be kept simple. Vote yes or no whether you think a map should go. It doesn't matter why for the purposes here. It is strictly your opinion. You should then post what you think should be added to the ladder. Then, go forth and make a bunch of noise about it wherever you can that Blizzard might see it. Their forum is a good place to start. I am going to link this on Blizzard's forum when we get a sufficient amount of votes to make the point.
The followiing list shows since which season a map has been in the pool. (According to liquipedia)
Tal'Darim Altar: Season 1
Shakuras Plateau: Season 1
Entombed Valley: Season 5
Condemned Ridge: Season 8
Antiga Shipyard: Season 3
Ohana LE: Season 7
Daybreak LE: Season 7
Cloud Kingdom LE: Season 6
UPDATE - I have received news unofficially that this topic might be discussed on the next inside the game episode. So look for that and let's hope it will help something get done.
Poll: Tal'Darim Altar needs to go?Yes (1079) 90% No (116) 10% 1195 total votes Your vote: Tal'Darim Altar needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Shakuras Plateau needs to go?Yes (756) 67% No (365) 33% 1121 total votes Your vote: Shakuras Plateau needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Entombed Valley needs to go?No (566) 57% Yes (433) 43% 999 total votes Your vote: Entombed Valley needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Condemned Ridge needs to go?Yes (753) 77% No (222) 23% 975 total votes Your vote: Condemned Ridge needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Antiga Shipyard needs to go?No (561) 52% Yes (525) 48% 1086 total votes Your vote: Antiga Shipyard needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Ohana LE needs to go?No (797) 84% Yes (157) 16% 954 total votes Your vote: Ohana LE needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Daybreak LE needs to go?No (836) 89% Yes (107) 11% 943 total votes Your vote: Daybreak LE needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Cloud Kingdom LE needs to go?No (767) 80% Yes (186) 20% 953 total votes Your vote: Cloud Kingdom LE needs to go? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Tell me what you think should be added in. Check out possibilities here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354253
|
Tal'Darim, Shakuras and Antiga are all quite bad and very old. They should be the next ones to go, imo.
|
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps.
|
On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps.
Are you a Zerg player, by chance?
|
On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps.
IDK, but I think it was somehow the perfect combination of abusive things all races could do to each other on that map in particular. It's not an imbalanced map(it's actually the most balanced map in the history of SCII, and possibly even in BW). Only real problem I have with TDA was PvP. PvP on any rampless map is just a BO/microfest.
|
On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance?
Im a protoss and agree with this 100% these maps are just plain awful, Anitga is the most unfair pvt map in the pool.
|
On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps.
Pretty much. I'm sure Blizzard would like tournaments to feature at least one Blizzard map.
Back to the topic, I don't understand how or why TDA and Shakuras Plateau even still appear in tournaments. Its somewhat acceptable for them to still be in the ladder pool since tournaments still use them. However, these two definitely need to go in tournament play and ladder play. Those are the only 2 I think absolutely need to go. Next up for removal would be Condemned, Antiga, and Entombed. I wonder when we'll see the next great community map. We haven't really had a GREAT one come out since Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom. Whirlwind is pretty meh. That other new ESV Muspelheim or whatever is pretty meh.
|
Just to start off, my opinion is bias as a mapmaker, because I almost always like to see new maps.
---
TalDarim can go. It's been used for too long, the flat choke ruins PvP, the rocks at the third don't fit the PvZ metagame, the entire map is too large.
Shakuras Plateau can go. It has proven to be imbalanced in PvT and PvZ, it has been used for far too long, and the map design was never that great in the first place because of the tiny choked center and nearly useless semi-island space that takes up 1/4 of the map.
Entombed Valley is decent and still contributes to the development of today's metagame, but it is an oddball for PvZ because 12min roach max doesn't work due to the small ramps. The most notable problems with the map imo are the terrible semi-islands, the useless "tasteless backdoor" pathways, and the imbalanced close positions.
Condembed ridge can go. The proportions are off in a lot of ways- the main is too small, the third is too open, and the map has way too much wasted space.
Antiga Shipyard can go. It has done its part in SC2, but now the positional imbalance, hard-to-break center, and nearly impossible fourth bases need to go.
Ohana LE can stay. It is still a playable/balanced/well-designed map and hasn't been used nearly as long as the others. However, it is getting to its time too I believe.
Daybreak LE is inbetween staying and going for me  . I never liked the split-map design and limited pathing options of the map. Making the center base 2gas also messed up a lot of the integrity to the map design.
Cloud Kingdom LE can stay. It is a very well made map, it is mostly balanced (yes, it needs some adjustment for PvT it seems), and the metagame is still evolving on it. Also games haven't gotten stale yet since it is relatively new.
---
I've been really wanting somebody to post something like this, because I agree that the map pool has gotten very stale. The first TLMC is responsible for getting Cloud Kingdom and Ohana into competitive play, and in some ways Daybreak since it spurred Blizzard to be active in adding community maps to ladder. So please another TLMC would be a great thing for SC2!!!!
|
Tal Darim, Daybreak, Antiga, and i guess Shakuras can go.
Cloud Kingdom i'm kinda eh about, but ohana, condemned, and entombed i like :D
|
Shakuras is so bad. Every TvP is a blink all-in so I just vetoed it. TDA is okay, but it's time for a new map.
|
Canada16217 Posts
tal'darim, antiga,shakuras should all be replaced.
|
Antiga would be decent if it was forced crossed. tal darim and shakuras are pretty shit and need to be replaced.
|
I just hope they don't keep making big maps because its cool. The maps should be around roughly the same size to keep the balance regarding warpgates, zergs insanely mobile army and medivacs.
|
Tal'Darim, and Shakuras definitely need to be honorably discharged.
I like that phrase as opposed to "go" because while I don't particularly dislike either of the maps, they do feel old and I'd rather taste some new maps versus playing on these for another season.
Antiga and Entombed are starting to feel dated too, and the fact that virtually EVERY tournament has an edited version of them that forces cross spawns I think says that if it's going to stay it should be edited..
I don't particularly LIKE Cloud Kingdom, but I don't see any reason it should leave the map pool. It still feels fresh enough.
Ohana and Daybreak should stay.
Condemned Ridge, I'm definitely in the minority in saying that I enjoy playing on. It's very different from any other map currently in the pool and I think that's a good thing. I don't want it gone, not just yet anyway. It's good enough of a map to warrant another season at least, it shouldn't go the way of Arid Plateau, or Slag Pits that were so bad they didn't last more than one season. Condemned Ridge is a better map than that.
|
I would encourage everyone here to visit the custom maps section of our forums. There are many great maps there which haven't seen the light of day. I'm not sure it is realistic to hope for Blizzard to draw never before seen maps out of this forum, but more community maps like muspelheim (used in the GSL) would be fantastic to replace a map like tal'darim altar.
|
Antiga worst map in current map pool (aka impossible to take 4th as P)
also Tal'Darim
|
On July 19 2012 14:57 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance? Im a protoss and agree with this 100% these maps are just plain awful, Anitga is the most unfair pvt map in the pool.
Obviously you're forgetting the 70% Protoss ladder win rate in TvP on Cloud Kingdom.
|
On July 19 2012 15:36 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:57 jcroisdale wrote:On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance? Im a protoss and agree with this 100% these maps are just plain awful, Anitga is the most unfair pvt map in the pool. Obviously you're forgetting the 70% Protoss ladder win rate in TvP on Cloud Kingdom.
Yes, but that takes into consideration of all leagues, including broze-diamond...which doesn't really matter at all. Show us the stats for master-pro and it's most likely a different story.
|
TDA and condemned need to go for sure, maybe shakuras too imo
|
On July 19 2012 14:57 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance? Im a protoss and agree with this 100% these maps are just plain awful, Anitga is the most unfair pvt map in the pool.
How can you say that. If you want to talk about unfair PvT look at cloud kingdom where terran has a 30% winrate
|
Great poll. This is basically my feelings with the exception of Condemned Ridge. I like that map, it provides great macro games .
|
Russian Federation484 Posts
KeSPA! Save us! I hope for next PL you will go for new maps. At least 1.
|
The one they play at GSTL Muspelheim I think it's called. Looks very interesting.
|
TalDarim and Shakuras have been around for very long. Would be nice to find new maps.
|
On July 19 2012 15:50 chuDr3t4 wrote:
KeSPA! Save us! I hope for next PL you will go for new maps. At least 1.
Yeah, I actually agree here. It would (hopefully) change the paradigm for new maps from one of entrenched opposition to change to embracing trying new things on a regular basis. No one says you have to keep a bad new map, but why keep 10 bad old maps??
GSL does this okay but they need to be bolder. The pros can handle it, and adapting to maps needs to be a larger part of high level play.
|
TDA is ancient and should be replaced. Rocks at the third? Really?
Antiga is still imbalanced, but I don't expect Blizzard to ever enforce cross positions. So, this one goes too.
Shakuras is just a stale old map with uninteresting gameplay.
The rest are fine, in my opinion. Entombed horizontal spawns is still annoying, but not gamebreaking like TDA and Antiga.
|
HOLY SHIT TDA has been in THAT long? Wow did not even notice how fast time passed...
it's been like 2 years then that TDA has been in the map pool? Thought it came in a few seasons later when they finally decided to put in GSL maps?
Anyways TDA please go I always ban you anyways kekek. Shakuras is OK but it does still feel old (just doesn't feel like a beautiful map, though it's OK)
|
Interesting results. If i remember correctly taldarim is fairly balanced map according to winrates and cloud kingdom (protoss kingdom) is not. So people want to get rid of maps because they are bad in some other way, rather than being badly balanced.
|
Everyone just wants a map where it's hard to harass and easy to turtle up to 4 bases. Yep.
|
China6329 Posts
Whirlwind replaces TDA, Metropolis replaces Shakuras, and I prefer Sandshorn Mists.
|
Tal'Darim Altar, Shakuras Plateau, Entombed Valley and Condemned Ridge all should go because of obvious balance issues.
Ill go into more detail:
Tal'Darim its pretty obvious whats wrong the rocks at the third, the cliff outside the natural is a great place for tanks. Other than that its just a really uncomfortable map for ZvP/T because there is no obvious 4th.
Shakuras Plateau its a bit of a toss up and always has. 3rd base is kinda awkward but its an easy 4th if you can secure the 3rd. Its really terran favored if you drop tanks on the cliff. The rocks with the hidden base is a nice way for terrans who should lose a game pretty early to get a hidden base that is pretty well protected. Protoss have a lot of chokes to abuse, colossus is pretty good on the map because you can micro on top of the cliffs to save them. There just seems that there are no places where I can say im happy to engage here.
Entombed valley as a Zerg player this map makes me just say how the hell did it ever get big in pro play or stay on ladder more than a season. The positional imbalances in either close position makes me angry. Like if they spawn pointing at your third its really easy to deny it. If they are close to the natural, you are pretty much always all in if you try to attack because they are literally on top of your base in 20 secs and there is no reactionary stuff you can do at all if you see them walking out, if they surprise you in any way you are dead.
Condemned Ridge it seems like an ok map on the surface but there are a few things that annoy me. Close by ground shouldn't be spawnable. The cliffs behind the natural just are an added annoyance but its annoying not game breaking id say. The map is big which naturally I like but scouting 3 positions early just isn't really nice like your overlords are faster but wow it takes ages. I like the wide 3rd base. Id say this map is border line good or bad if the things I mentioned were changed id be happy with it to stay.
1 more thing, supply depos at the bottom of ramps. It pisses me off when every no talent fool of a protoss or terran does the ramp block and I more or less auto lose the game because Blizzard don't want to line the ladder maps up with tournament maps correctly. Until they add supply depos im never going to take ladder seriously because its a joke that retards get away with that shit.
As for replacements whirlwind seems balanced, Sanshorn Mists I thought other than the islands was good. Muspelheim looks good but its a bit tight in parts but seems like if you are careful you aren't going to get annihilated by force fields. Atlantis Spaceship is an option but its very big, I don't know if it would be entirely fun to play on it for ladder but its great for tournaments I think because it allows for a wide array of tactics and ive seen a lot of different ones in use. Metropolis if they fix the lag for the ladder version is still an option.
|
On July 19 2012 15:55 Jarree wrote:
Interesting results. If i remember correctly taldarim is fairly balanced map according to winrates and cloud kingdom (protoss kingdom) is not. So people want to get rid of maps because they are bad in some other way, rather than being badly balanced.
Taldarim has been around for far too long.It needs to go.Same with Metalopolis.
Needs to go.Too stale and boring since this map has been here since forever.
Not to mention rocks are at the third don't fit the current PvZ metagame.
Flat choke means easier hellion-runbys/ forever PvP 4 gate on this map/etc.
Is it true there is 70% winrate for PvT on this map?O.O
Always thought that Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak are one of the most balanced map.
|
I can't believe less people voted against shakuras than tal'dadrim. Well, I guess I can, but it's disheartening to see these crutch maps perpetuated.
|
TDA and Shakuras needs to go. TDA is the worst map in the pool right now imo. Shakuras is just getting too old, and could use a new map instead (say metropolis or even atlantis spaceship, though the latter i think has too many problems).
As much as Daybreak is getting old, its such a perfect map that I don't see it going away anytime soon. Yes, I'm a huge Daybreak fanboy. Maybe if they make the middle base one gas again? That'll be cool.
Condemned Ridge...needs to go. Kind of like Arid Plateau couple seasons ago, it's not quite good. I'd prefer muspelheim anyday over this.
Entombed and Antiga needs to be forced cross spawn, or no horizontal spawn in the case of Entombed. The imbalance and gameplay becomes sooo weird.
Ohana...as much as I hate it for being soooooo boring it can stay.
Edit: Cloud Kingdom is fine. It's quite a fun map, except there might be too many open spaces like TDA.
|
On July 19 2012 16:00 digmouse wrote:
Whirlwind replaces TDA, Metropolis replaces Shakuras, and I prefer Sandshorn Mists.
I would kill to have whirlwind in the map pool. That map looks ballin :D
|
On July 19 2012 16:05 FakeDeath wrote:
Is it true there is 70% winrate for PvT on this map?O.O
Always thought that Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak are one of the most balanced map.
From David Kim interview:
In our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom
|
TDA is a good and original map.. leave it be.
|
I really hope that the kespa mapmaking team switches for the next seasons and starts making maps, without obiding to some of the ridiculous restrictions that Blizzard has set as 'models' for maps. The ESV guys are doing some great work they should keep it up or more. Blizzard obviously gives no priority to making maps themselves or making them good so they should just step down entirely. With the ladder there that would be difficult, but by slowly replacing them with tournament maps it is possible. There is a big problem though in that some tournaments don't seem to have any structure in place to decide which maps to add in a knowledgeable way, they run good tournaments, but miss out on the starcraft part.
|
|
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
|
Shakuras needs to go because it is just way too damn old. Plus the third is always weird to take in PvZ which makes me 2-base all-in every game, and that gets stale.
Taldarim has gone past its sell-by date as well, too many issues for both P and Z on this map in the current state of the game.
I personally don't like Antiga, but with forced cross-spawns I think it would be okay, and terrans need at least one map that favours them in the pool 
Just get Metropolis back on the ladder so we can see where that map leads to. And add Muspelheim, it doesn't look that great at first glance but that map has generated some awesome games!
And yes, every map should have no close-by-ground spawns and neutral supply-depots should be added everywhere!
|
I cant help but think how bad it would be for Terrans if most of these maps were removed. 8)
But I would really like to see some of the new GSL maps in there, whirlwind and shit.
|
Staggering statistic. That map is probably my best map for TvP. I think it's great.
|
TDA out! --->>> Atlantis Spaceship in! 
Shakuras out! --->>> Sandshorn Mists in!
|
I don't get people who say that X MAP is too old. Come one, It's been only 2 years. Sure some maps could use some minor changes but they don't necessarily need to go.
Antiga sucks though.
|
The topic was about ladder pool, i play in the ladder. I dont get your argument? Even if marineking beats everyone in that map and you present me some stats about it, why should i care? I am not marineking. If the topic was about "what maps do you want to see pros play on", then ok lets see some tlpd stats lol.
|
On July 19 2012 14:52 Gfire wrote:
Tal'Darim, Shakuras and Antiga are all quite bad and very old. They should be the next ones to go, imo.
I'd echo this, Blizz should be constantly making new maps regardless of balance to keep it interesting.
|
I just brought it up to counter someone's PvT gripe about Antiga Shipyard.
Sure Antiga Shipyard favors Terran but there's maps favoring Protoss currently in the pool also, was the point I was really trying to make.
Also Ladder stats SHOULD matter for what maps end up in the LADDER pool. TLPD stats should be the biggest selling points for what maps end up in tournaments, but when there's that much of a disparity between tournament and ladder stats for a given map you can tell something's up.
|
IMO the only map that needs to go is Condemned Ridge. I don't know what possessed them to put this terrible map in the ladder pool and also don't know why they haven't fixed Metropolis yet.
TDA needs to stay. Too many maps where it's just a herp derp "quick third" fest and it's the only map still on there that's not just the same old easily defendable third.
I also don't personally see how Antiga favors Terran past the "I'm bad so it must mean the map favors that other race" mentality.
|
Condemned ridge and tal'darim altar aren't very good maps, plus not used in tournaments nowadays. I'm not use if they will remove condemned after just putting it in, but tal'darim was in the ladder pool forever and I think it's time for it to go. I doubt blizzard will put Atlantis Spaceship or they do they'll probably remove that rich gas like they always put the resources to the standard mode. Perhaps Whirlwind can be a good replacement for tal'darim since it's also a huge macro map.
As for Shakuras plateau, I always had respect for that map. It was never really imbalanced or had serious issues. I think it's a solid map which could still stay in the pool for a bit, I think condemned ridge and tal'darim are the two maps which need to be taken care of right now.
|
I'd love to see how the golden oldie maps do with todays level of play. Metalopolis, Blistering Sands etc 
|
On July 19 2012 16:33 Zerg.Zilla wrote:TDA out! --->>> Atlantis Spaceship in! Shakuras out! --->>> Sandshorn Mists in!
Fuck no.
Keep Atlantis Spaceship FAR FAR FAR away from ladder.
|
I say taldarim, entombed valley, and daybreak all need to go.
Basically this is because at least for me, while playing Terran I simply cannot beat a decent Zerg on them.
Big maps or maps with thirds that are terribly hard to deny just don't favor Terran at all.
|
Terran needs antiga, for the love of fucking god don't get rid of it
|
Entombed Valley and Antiga Shipyard are the best maps.
|
On July 19 2012 16:31 Hypemeup wrote:
I cant help but think how bad it would be for Terrans if most of these maps were removed. 8)
But I would really like to see some of the new GSL maps in there, whirlwind and shit.
On July 19 2012 16:43 VPCursed wrote:
Terran needs antiga, for the love of fucking god don't get rid of it
Before you say removing x map is bad for Terran or have a knee jerk reaction, doesn't it matter what the map will be replaced with? For instance if a map similar to Antiga Shipyard that was designed better replaces it then would there be a problem?
There could be entirely new gameplay experiences you are missing out on. The opportunity cost of keeping bad maps is high for you. I know there are better maps out there that very few know about.
|
On July 19 2012 16:33 Zerg.Zilla wrote:TDA out! --->>> Atlantis Spaceship in! Shakuras out! --->>> Sandshorn Mists in!
Putting Atlantis spaceship on the ladder would be stupid. You'd only ever play ZvZ on it. No sane Terran or Protoss wouldn't veto it.
|
a third with 2 normal gas and one rich vespene gas? no.
also, condemned ridge isnt too bad, i like the high ground near 3rd
|
On July 19 2012 16:33 Zerg.Zilla wrote:TDA out! --->>> Atlantis Spaceship in! Shakuras out! --->>> Sandshorn Mists in!
Please no, both are not really good with the current way Starcraft II is played.
|
Get rid of taldarim and add netural supply deports to make it easier for zerg to hold of cannon rushes, then i'm happy
|
If they put Altantis Spaceship in, I'm going to start killing kittens. Not every game has to go to 4 bases at the start of game in order to have an epic game. You get an epic game from a game that wasn't trying to be epic under those XYZ characteristics. And if every game is 4 base starting, well it lessens the greatness of 1 hr games.
Dustin Browder once said (paraphrasing) that if you don't allow the possibility of losing from basically the start of the game, you're just delaying the game until the game gets "good". That's what I feel the game state is at right now due to maps, balance, players playing better, etc. I want to feel that every second in this game, I could lose or take a big hit in an instant.
I want risk and opportunity cost at every point in the game. As a terran, I feel this the most during TvT.
TvP and TvZ can have this ability, but too many games its decided during 200/200 max fight or during Terran 2 base push, with almost 0 risk until that point. I think this is why mirror matchups are becoming better to watch than non-mirrors, across all races.
Bring back riskier maps and revert some of the nerfs so every race is in the hotseat at all points in the game. Do this and casuals/vets will be entertained and casters will have something to talk about in first 10 mins of game. Players are better and should be able to withstand these atks much better than 2010 release.
Imagine if at the start of sc2, player X had a really good nuke opener. Everyone copied it and it changed the game so much that blizz nerfed it. Now 2 yrs later, the nerf isn't necessary due to maps, better players, other balance changes. Our game-state is defined by what was abused the most (Blizz should make all units have ability to be more cost effective, so balance matters less, but thats another topic).
It makes me sad that everyone wants to oust these old maps, even if they are bad. Why not remake Shakuras/TDA/Xelnaga Caverns to fix those problems and keep some part of it the same??? That's what I want. I do agree with other posters that Blizzard should have alot more maps to cycle through to keep things interesting, I just want old ones now and then (edited or w/e is fine).
|
Scrap all but Ohana, Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom, replace with 2-4 community maps.
|
Whirlwind
Atlantis Spaceship
Muspelheim
Metropolis
These maps should be added
|
On July 19 2012 18:16 Hilo wrote:
Whirlwind
Atlantis Spaceship
Muspelheim
Metropolis
These maps should be added
No.. Just no..
|
|
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 19 2012 16:36 Jarree wrote:The topic was about ladder pool, i play in the ladder. I dont get your argument? Even if marineking beats everyone in that map and you present me some stats about it, why should i care? I am not marineking. If the topic was about "what maps do you want to see pros play on", then ok lets see some tlpd stats lol.
My argument is that Cloud Kingdom actually isn't that imbalanced PvT and that you shouldn't read too much into what Blizzard say about ladder statistics because you have no idea where they've come from and how they've been adjusted.
|
Why hasn't anyone mentioned Ohana as being too small.
Once you and your opponent have 4-5 bases the map feels SUPER constrained. If you compare it to cloud kingdom where it is questionably just as small/tight, Ohana feels way more claustrophobic.
|
I would like to see Metropolis back in, Tal'Darim can go. I haven't played on that one for months (veto).
And no Atlantis Spaceship / Whirlwind please, too damn big.
|
On July 19 2012 16:36 TriumpHisme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:52 Gfire wrote:
Tal'Darim, Shakuras and Antiga are all quite bad and very old. They should be the next ones to go, imo. I'd echo this, Blizz should be constantly making new maps regardless of balance to keep it interesting.
Oh no. Blizzard should altogether stop making maps. Every Blizzard map is getting a no in that poll, except [strike]antiga[/strike] Entombed, sorry. that is on the edge of 50/50, and every non ancient (eg not 2 year old, and amazing at that time, taldarim altar)community map is plebiscited. I'm not under the impression that Blizzard mapping is the way to go.
Wanna see a decent ladder pool while you're alive ? Then go down the sidebar to the custom maps forum and give support & advice 
Waiting for TLMC #2.
Edit : so Entombed is the only Blizz map to go above 50% ? Well I guess, with no zerg in their right mind voting for it and every protoss doing so, it's liked by 50% of players....
|
Ohana is such a boring map... I get Xel'Naga Caverns-chills from it.
|
On July 19 2012 19:01 Zackeva wrote:
Ohana is such a boring map... I get Xel'Naga Caverns-chills from it.
Yeah Ohana is pretty bland. Least its not as imba as xel naga.
|
Tal'Darim and Shakuras are old and somewhat flawed, altho they gave us good games in the past it's definitely time to go for them
Antiga Shipyard was always horrible with its somewhat easy 3 base but nearly impossible 4 base design, too heavily focused on center control.
Entombed is imo also pretty shitty with way too easy 3 base and pretty mediocre middle design.
Condemned Ridge hopefully doesn't ever see play anywhere. Don't give Blizzard ideas to add more of their own maps again.
I have no idea why Blizzard doesn't just ask TL for more TLMC's on a more regular basis (like every 6 months). With that and GSL (and future Kespa) maps they would have plenty of good maps to choose from and they wouldn't have to add their own crap or have old maps in for so long.
And it costs Blizzard like what... 5x 200 dollar in prize money or sth like that last time? Come on! Maps are important!
|
Antiga Condemned Entombed TalDarim and Shakuras need to go it's been too long.
Hopefully they just pick 5 map making maps or some more GSL maps instead of trying to design one themselves
|
could we please get some terran favored maps that arent bad in general? that'd be great
|
i see daybreak as a bad map. the most interesting part of the map is actually the position where smoke screen line of sight blockers is and the highground at the 5th. the 3rd base is just really bad in general ( centre or not ).
|
At least shakuras and tal'darim... come on, mineral patches on tal darim are the worst, and there are so many imbalances on this map.
Shakuras, is just a lol map, the design is pure lame, it's just a nightmare in TvT.
I'm happy that this poll exists, because since season 7 i just vetoed those 2 maps which are pretty boring right now.
|
On July 19 2012 19:19 ThePlayer33 wrote:
i see daybreak as a bad map. the most interesting part of the map is actually the position where smoke screen line of sight blockers is and the highground at the 5th. the 3rd base is just really bad in general ( centre or not ).
If you think the center base is a 3rd then you're playing the map wrong.
|
Tal'Darim, Shakuras and Antiga are old and should be removed. Dont really have suggestions on replacement maps but I guess they should have a bit of spread in size in the replacements.
|
Hmm, I voted no for all of them. The map pool is very good imo.
|
On July 19 2012 19:33 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 19:19 ThePlayer33 wrote:
i see daybreak as a bad map. the most interesting part of the map is actually the position where smoke screen line of sight blockers is and the highground at the 5th. the 3rd base is just really bad in general ( centre or not ). If you think the center base is a 3rd then you're playing the map wrong.
No. Taking the center as a third can be a strong defensive position. It is less common yes, but to say he is playing the map wrong is just stupid.
|
My opinnion is almost 100% oposite of these polls.
Really suprised people hate Condemned Ridge so much. Its like people are hating on it just cuz its the only new blizzard map or something.
|
I know this isn't completely on topic, but has anyone explored or have any insight on what the impact of lowering gas/mineral counts at different bases would be. It's just something I have been wondering for a while and I haven't seen many maps change it up at all.
|
On July 19 2012 18:36 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 16:36 Jarree wrote:On July 19 2012 16:29 Plexa wrote:On July 19 2012 16:14 Jarree wrote:On July 19 2012 16:05 FakeDeath wrote:
Is it true there is 70% winrate for PvT on this map?O.O
Always thought that Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak are one of the most balanced map.
From David Kim interview:
In our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom
Since when has a ladder stat ever held much meaning? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/maps/510_ESV_Cloud_Kingdom - 54% winrate for Protoss vs Terran http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/510_ESV_Cloud_Kingdom - 49% winrate for Protoss vs Terran Map is fine, ladder is terrible. The topic was about ladder pool, i play in the ladder. I dont get your argument? Even if marineking beats everyone in that map and you present me some stats about it, why should i care? I am not marineking. If the topic was about "what maps do you want to see pros play on", then ok lets see some tlpd stats lol. My argument is that Cloud Kingdom actually isn't that imbalanced PvT and that you shouldn't read too much into what Blizzard say about ladder statistics because you have no idea where they've come from and how they've been adjusted.
Despite the fact that Jarree is talking about ladder, not pro players, your argument is still bad. Blizzard has access to all the results ever possible and has an interest in promoting the idea that the game is well balanced. I think a quote from David Kim that Cloud Kingdom is 70% for PvT is extremely important.
The only factor to consider is a lot of time has passed since that quote and the results may now be different.
|
I'd say remove TDA, and Shakuras. Replace with Atlantis Spaceship, and either Sanshorn Mists, or Whirlwind.
|
I'd be fine with Antiga in the map pool if they'd be willing to introduceone of the tournament versions.
|
On July 19 2012 20:18 _Nova_ wrote:
I'd say remove TDA, and Shakuras. Replace with Atlantis Spaceship, and either Sanshorn Mists, or Whirlwind.
Atlantis spaceship and whirlwind are both terrible imbalanced maps. Not sure about Sanshorn Mists, there hasn't been as many games on it.
The problem with the map pool is that there are really no great new GSL maps to pick from. Might as well stick with the old maps for now.
|
Condemned Ridge, Tal'Darim Altar and Antiga Shipyard have to change.
Condemned Ridge
Very bad design, Big map and it's very hard to take Zelnaga.
Tal'Darim Altar
Very hard map for terran and protoss(pvz muta).
Antiga Shipyard
Very hard to B4 for terran(Creep, timing T3) and impossible to B5 if you have not a HUGE avantage.
|
Tal'Darim, Shakuras and Antiga should definitely be replaced. Not just from ladder but from tournament maps as well. Daybreak is getting a bit old, too.
|
TDA really needs to go. I've had it on veto for god knows how long, due to PvP and being forced to 2base all-in every game in PvZ so you could avoid the Muta rampage.
Antiga I'm not to keen on in PvT for two reasons (fortified position in mid with turret = no vision of T army whatsoever before you are committed to attacking, and the weird main ramp design that makes you super vulnerable to drops and split attacks), but I guess it's decent enough in the other matchups.
|
Taldarim and Shakuras need to go for sure.
|
Tal'darim, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga need to go. Rest are fine. I don't know why people hate condemned ridge that much. I think it's a cool model for a map. So big and long games are almost always being interesting. Maps like antiga and entombed are way shittier than it.
|
if you aks me:
Every map except daybreak has to go at tournaments, actually for months. I still give daybreak for around 2 months.
Every should go at ladder, I need 10 very new maps.
|
On July 19 2012 20:34 Imzoo wrote:
Tal'Darim Altar
Very hard map for terran and protoss(pvz muta).
Antiga Shipyard
Very hard to B4 for terran(Creep, timing T3) and impossible to B5 if you have not a HUGE avantage.Last edit:
Once upon a time 2 base mutas was good vs toss... I can muta on any map i want now, the difference is, with other maps i can take a third ^^. The thing about antiga is also very wrong. Terran with tanks seiged up in the middle of the map can control the middle and do harasses with drop ships while slowly encroaching the zerg. Do you even know what you are talking about lol.
|
|
|
On July 19 2012 20:14 CaptainCharisma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 18:36 Plexa wrote:On July 19 2012 16:36 Jarree wrote:On July 19 2012 16:29 Plexa wrote:On July 19 2012 16:14 Jarree wrote:On July 19 2012 16:05 FakeDeath wrote:
Is it true there is 70% winrate for PvT on this map?O.O
Always thought that Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak are one of the most balanced map.
From David Kim interview:
In our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom
Since when has a ladder stat ever held much meaning? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/maps/510_ESV_Cloud_Kingdom - 54% winrate for Protoss vs Terran http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/510_ESV_Cloud_Kingdom - 49% winrate for Protoss vs Terran Map is fine, ladder is terrible. The topic was about ladder pool, i play in the ladder. I dont get your argument? Even if marineking beats everyone in that map and you present me some stats about it, why should i care? I am not marineking. If the topic was about "what maps do you want to see pros play on", then ok lets see some tlpd stats lol. My argument is that Cloud Kingdom actually isn't that imbalanced PvT and that you shouldn't read too much into what Blizzard say about ladder statistics because you have no idea where they've come from and how they've been adjusted. Despite the fact that Jarree is talking about ladder, not pro players, your argument is still bad. Blizzard has access to all the results ever possible and has an interest in promoting the idea that the game is well balanced. I think a quote from David Kim that Cloud Kingdom is 70% for PvT is extremely important. The only factor to consider is a lot of time has passed since that quote and the results may now be different.
Well, we have access to two stats. One is straightforward. The other is calculated through a complex formula (Blizz said themselves they adjusted ladder balance rates in a pretty complex way). They give very different results. I'll take the transparent one over the complicated one any day.
Well anyway, the rest of your comments just show you don't know what you're talking about. The center base on Daybreak as a third is impossible to hold. Do you expect to be taken seriously when you think TDA or Shakuras are fine and should stay ?
|
condemned ridge, shakuras and TDA need to go.
TDA sucks because of no ramp and the silly rocks at the third. Awful map. Shakuras is ok but leads to split maps too often and third is slightly too hard to take. Condemned ridge i just don't like.
For the rest maps are fine. Daybreak could use a few tweaks to some space behind mineral lines though as cannon rushing is too easy there, PvP cannon rush is very hard to stop for example if you are just 1 second late. Because it;s so strong you can do silly things like faking a cannon rush and that kind of stuff on it as well.
|
They should make Antiga and Entombed Cross Only imho.
|
On July 19 2012 21:22 roym899 wrote:
They should make Antiga and Entombed Cross Only imho.
They should remove both. Antiga is just plain boring with features that make comebacks impossible (center gold with highground) and the 4th base unholdable ; and Entombed is universally hated by zergs (The least favorite map of DRG, Stephano, and every other zerg pro).
|
Don't know about Antige, but Entombed should definitely be cross spawn only.
TDA, Condemned Ridge and Shakuras need to be replaced. But the problem is that there are no good new maps used by tournaments at the moment, so we have to hope for Blizzard to make a new good map and I don't have much hope for that. Anyone knows if we will ever get a fixed version of Metropolis on ladder?
|
3 that need to go at the end of the season
Tal'Darim - Oldest map on the ladder. Very stale map.
Shakuras - Another old map. Also, I hate terran tank play on that ridge next to your main
Antiga Shipyard - Honestly just bored of this map
|
|
|
wasn't shakuras (that shit version) in the beta too? Or am I wrong.
So whatever happened to 3 player maps? Longinus anyone? T.T
|
Tal'Darim Altar
Shakuras Plateau
Condemned Ridge
Are maps that I think should go. Tal'Darim is always based on the positions it seems. Shakuras is still a solid map imo, but I am just bored of it lol. Condemned Ridge I think is bad. Taking your 3rd can be challenging. And the xel'naga towers are usually worthless. I actually like how they take old maps in and rotate new ones in it makes it interesting because for a non pro sc 2 player I like map changes.
|
u should make topic on bnet forums with results of the pool, tda and shakuras totally need to go, antiga and entombed need cross only and gold remove on antiga atleast or remove
|
I think Taldarim altar needs a remake, like what happened to Shakuras; it should have the rocks at the 3rd removed, and the distance behind the natual increased, and it could be a fine map again IMO.
|
Only map thats actually needs to go from list is Tal-Darim. No biased personal reason here its just I know so many people that have had that map vetoed for the last 5 seasons or so. Would not be missed by many.
|
On July 19 2012 21:49 DarkInfinity wrote:
I think Taldarim altar needs a remake, like what happened to Shakuras; it should have the rocks at the 3rd removed, and the distance behind the natual increased, and it could be a fine map again IMO.
spoilered for balance rant
+ Show Spoiler +Possibly the worst decision ever... PvZ? Well now zerg gets a free fast third, AND if it goes mutas (DRG style) always wins because the main army has to do this giant swing around to defend and eventually if you split apart 25+ mutas will just kill you... T.T sometimes I'm glad Blizzard doesn't listen to every balance suggestion, I always say they're so dumb but apparently they're above the average diamond and blew league gamer in balance knowledge.
|
I have no idea why people want some map to go "because they're old". I mean, I'd rather play on old but balanced maps than on new but completely unbalanced maps. Tal'Darim Altar is still a really good map, allowing a lot of different strategies, same for Shakuras. Antiga could be removed or at least get some adjustments like cross positions and maybe remove the gold minerals on the center of the map. And I don't get why people want to play on Atlantis Spaceship (one of the most unbalanced map) unless they play Zerg. I mean seriously, this is an RTS, who cares about getting new maps to play on when there are plenty of balanced maps ?
|
On July 19 2012 21:57 Kihshra wrote:
I have no idea why people want some map to go "because they're old". I mean, I'd rather play on old but balanced maps than on new but completely unbalanced maps. Tal'Darim Altar is still a really good map, allowing a lot of different strategies, same for Shakuras. Antiga could be removed or at least get some adjustments like cross positions and maybe remove the gold minerals on the center of the map. And I don't get why people want to play on Atlantis Spaceship (one of the most unbalanced map) unless they play Zerg. I mean seriously, this is an RTS, who cares about getting new maps to play on when there are plenty of balanced maps ?
New maps allow for new strategies to develop, they bring an air of freshness to the game and keep things interesting.
the entire map pool shouldn't rotate but some maps should just to keep things fun. Playing the same maps over and over again make things stale for some people but for others like you it just makes things frustrating because you have to adjust your strats to fit the new maps.
It's a careful balance. Blizz should rotate out a portion of the map pool every season but should keep it as balanced as possible. Not the easiest task in the world.
|
|
|
On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance?
Lol, how did you guess?
|
I'm surprised at poll results for entombed. Thinking people just hating on zerg a bit. It's a hell of a lot worse than shakuras imo.
|
Well I despise Condemned Ridge, the space available at the third means zerg can almost always take an uncontested third in PvZ, even if you put up early aggression. I guess I never really gave it a chance, but I don't intend to, I haven't seen it used in one tournament so I'm certain for that reason Blizzard will remove it next season.
Tal'Darim, how the hell it's lasted this long I don't know. It's just so bad, I played it in its first season and since then it's been using up one of my veto's ever since. I think the only reason it's been kept so long is somehow it was a map that could turn out ~50% winrates across races and tournaments continued to insist on using it. It's rarely used at all now, surely Blizzard has to see sense and remove it next season.
Shakuras I think needs to go too. Personally I've always liked it, and even though there are balance issues with the map it's been around so long people just have it figured out. It's so old though, it really is time for change. My only fear is that they'll replace this mediocre map with a terrible one, that's why I'm a little fearful of them removing it.
Antiga is a map I've had on my veto for the last two seasons, however I don't actually dislike this map, in fact I hope it stays. The only reason I have it on veto is because it's the last map that still insists on having gold bases and it can be a bit of an arse for PvT. Basically I like to use all my vetos (have a smaller more focused map pool) and it was either this or Shakuras. I think Antiga should stick around at least for one more season.
The rest I really don't have a problem with, they're all pretty good maps and they're not quite 'stale' yet. I can see Cloud Kingdom outlasting all of them.
|
TDA is my fav map tvp, easiest map to get good concave get good macro games, but the rocks are so bad for Zerg 
|
Metropolis and Whirlwind should be added for TDA and Shakuras. imo.
|
the best thing is imo to just orient the ladder mappool on the mappools of the biggest tournaments like gsl, mlg, dreamhack etc.
|
btw why doesnt EU have the metropolis map on ladder?
|
Condemned: just utterly unplayable for PvX. Decent for TvZ though. Remove it. It's way too big.
Shakuras: Hard to macro on as a Protoss. Every PvZ is going to be a 2base all-in since split-map scenarios are extremely easy to get into and because the Zerg third is usually distanced from the natural.
TDA: Fuck this map. There isn't a single good matchup in TDA. The map is too big, has too many expansions, too much airspace, and no actual ramp. Everything about TDA is bad.
Antiga should be cross only because certain spawn locations favour Terran. No idea why this hasn't been implemented. Entombed can stay but just remove horizontal spawns because they're imbalanced and stupid.
|
I wouldn't mind to see Tal'Darim, Condemned and Ohana go. CK and Entombed are reasonable, even if CK is a bit too dark and unidimensional.
My favorite maps are Antiga, Daybreak and Shakuras. Not all maps need to provide an obvious and secure third/fourth; that's good for the sake of diversity. I agree with cross-only Antiga obviously.
|
If shakuras goes, terran will completely disappear of gm and masters. It is the only map on which I have more than 50% win rate. All other maps are zerg havens.
Shakuras needs to stay, and more maps like it should appear. Smaller maps. Especially since now it is evident that zerg is imba, together with the impending nerf of infestor and queen, we must play on smaller maps that further restrict the zerg from droning.
|
Force the cross spawn on antiga and I can live with it. I like Tal Darim except for the PvP problem. And Shakuras I think is a good map, but its just been around too long, im sick of it.
|
Canada16217 Posts
Metropolis back in the pool would be nice as a replacement if all the fps/lag issues are fixed.
|
I also think Taldarim needs a facelift, remove the third rocks and add rocks inbetween the natural and third, also make a ramp into the main to prevent a problem in pvp
|
On July 19 2012 21:09 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 20:34 Imzoo wrote:
Tal'Darim Altar
Very hard map for terran and protoss(pvz muta).
Antiga Shipyard
Very hard to B4 for terran(Creep, timing T3) and impossible to B5 if you have not a HUGE avantage.Last edit:
Once upon a time 2 base mutas was good vs toss... I can muta on any map i want now, the difference is, with other maps i can take a third ^^. The thing about antiga is also very wrong. Terran with tanks seiged up in the middle of the map can control the middle and do harasses with drop ships while slowly encroaching the zerg. Do you even know what you are talking about lol.
I definitly know what i'm talking about.
Terran have lot's of trouble to B4 on this map and all person normally constituted will agree.
|
United Kingdom31935 Posts
Why hasnt Metro been put back into the pool didnt blizz say it would be back this season?
Oh and TDA and Shakuras out they are too old force cross antiga and no more gold.
|
Yup just shit on terran win rates some more lol. Antiga and shakuras do have problems but all the other maps are so big it just gets harder and harder to hit that timing with the wall distance toss and zerg dont have
|
Alot of toss players voting on entombed....
|
Antiga and Daybreak are SOOO old. I can´t believe people still want to play on them.
Cloud Kingdom and Ohana should stay, the rest should of course go.
|
On July 19 2012 22:53 Wrathsc2 wrote:
Yup just shit on terran win rates some more lol. Antiga and shakuras do have problems but all the other maps are so big it just gets harder and harder to hit that timing with the wall distance toss and zerg dont have
Terran winrates have very little to do with the map pool, at the moment. Besides, Shakuras is awful even in TvT. Antiga is awful because the spawn locations are unfair and because taking a 4th is extremely difficult if not impossible. At the very least, make Antiga cross only.
|
On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance?
I'm random and I hate that map no matter who I spawn as. PvP is bullshit, PvT is balanced but I almost always lose if I don't go colossus before storm (which I hate doing), PvZ it feels too big for macro play and it's hard to scout as Zerg's normal 3rd is blocked by rocks. TvP it takes too long to get to his base and the middle is too open for me to do well with tanks. TvZ it takes soooooo long to get to his base, hate this matchup the most. TvT is actually ok. ZvZ is actually ok too, almost always get away with hatch first and being greedy. ZvP my third is fucking blocked, 'tis bullshit. ZvT that ledge is irritating as hell and my third is blocked with fucking rocks! If the main choke was a ramp, third wasn't blocked and the middle was less open, the map might be ok. It'd be tough as Terran, but doable.
Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom are fantastic maps, Ohana is excellent as well (maybe zerg favoured?), Entombed is okish, Antiga would be ok if it was cross-only, PvT hard as hell though. Shakuras I don't mind, except for PvZ and ZvT.
|
TDA and Shakuras are actually good maps imo but they have been played to death and definitely need to be cut. Same with Antiga although that has some more obvious design flaws. I can't comment on the new ladder map as I haven't played it much. Daybreak is getting old but good for another season or 2, same with entombed. Ohana seems well balanced but is very standard, it can stay as long as all maps aren't like it. Cloud Kingdom is the best map so far in SC2 in my opinion.
I think every season half the maps should be chucked and replaced by either blizzard maps (although they tend to have more misses than hits) or by some of the many many great maps that are produced by the community. Loads of them never get the attention they deserve because there is rarely high level play on them. Go to the maps forum to see for yourself.
|
Taldarim , my veto since season 4 - oh the memories( that i dont have )
|
I hope blizzard implements neutral supply depots at ramps when they update the maps. So sick of cannon block bullshit by bad players.
|
On July 20 2012 00:32 Chr15t wrote:Taldarim , my veto since season 4 - oh the memories( that i dont have )
same here. Tal darim... never played there in a long time.
Antiga is a pretty good map, but i think it's old for the current style of games. More players are favouring macro style play byond 3 base and antiga sort of restricts that. Although I had many fun games on it, without forced cross spawns, it's a tough map to play on.
I don't know why people don't like condemned ridge. It encourages hidden expos which I think is a lost art in the game.
|
Wow, nice to see this poll in here. Those 3 maps definitely need to go. I hope blizzard listens.
|
i like entombed, but only in a veto map pool, because not every matchup works on it. But no real need for discussion, the ladder pool will obviously change slowly currently, reason should be clear.
Taldarim and shakuras will probably stay in as well, as the popular noob maps.
|
Anyone else missing how they used different map pools every season in like Proleague? It was refreshing and it was a really good system I think. I hope a team like ESV partner up with OGN unless their own map team put up quality maps and then they use the same system in the coming sc2 Proleagues.
Because is it one thing I really hate about the current state of sc2 it have to be the map situation. It's just way to many maps that are staying in relevant map pools waaaaaay to long because there is o many different tournaments and leagues going on all the time.
Sure, on ladder in BW there are maps that have been played for fucking forever but now when Blizzard has full control over the ladder you would think they could like have season rotation on specific map pools or something to mix it up. Not have fucking Tal Darim July 2012.
|
- Tal'darim
- Antiga Shipyard
- Shakuras Plateau
+ Metropolis
+ Korhal Compound TE
+ _____ Plateua; similar to Shakuras but with multiple attack paths and without boring map-split-in-half layout.
Also disable horizontal positions on Entombed Valley.
|
On July 20 2012 00:50 ZAiNs wrote:
- Tal'darim
- Antiga Shipyard
- Shakuras Plateau
+ Metropolis
+ Korhal Compound TE
+ _____ Plateua; similar to Shakuras but with multiple attack paths and without boring map-split-in-half layout.
Also disable horizontal positions on Entombed Valley.
Please don't bring back Korhal. Please.
|
|
|
On July 20 2012 00:50 ZAiNs wrote:
- Tal'darim
- Antiga Shipyard
- Shakuras Plateau
+ Metropolis
+ Korhal Compound TE
+ _____ Plateua; similar to Shakuras but with multiple attack paths and without boring map-split-in-half layout.
Also disable horizontal positions on Entombed Valley.
Korhal Compound isn't coming back, that was a terrible map (even Blizzard had common sense to remove after one season)
Would also like to see Tal'darim and SP gone for sure. Tal'darim rocks at 3rd is just outdated, there's a reason why none of the maps have this anymore.
Shakuras is old and should be gotten rid of, although it was a good map.
Antiga, I actually don't mind. Would prefer cross pos only but I do enjoy playing on that map somewhat.
Would like removal of TDA/SP for now, add Metropolis and another map (one of the current GSL ones).
|
On July 20 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 00:50 ZAiNs wrote:
- Tal'darim
- Antiga Shipyard
- Shakuras Plateau
+ Metropolis
+ Korhal Compound TE
+ _____ Plateua; similar to Shakuras but with multiple attack paths and without boring map-split-in-half layout.
Also disable horizontal positions on Entombed Valley. Please don't bring back Korhal. Please.
Agreed, as the maker of Korhal Compound . It's beyond too old and it was never meant to be played with this metagame. I made it six months before it was added to the ladder season, and by now its about a year old. It was never a great design in the first place, especially the fifth bases. Let's move on to some new stuff.
And in this case new stuff means new stuff, not Atlantis Spaceship or Muspeilheim or Whirlwind. All of these are VERY conservative maps that don't risk any new features except the 3gas base on Atlantis. I want to see some maps that use innovation but account for the metagame strategies and balance.
|
Why would you even think of getting rid of ohana D: Family sticks together.
|
Given the TvP stats that were released about Cloud Kingdom I can't believe it's still in the pool at the moment. But then, Metalopolis lasted quite a while despite having similar (though not quite as bad) stats for TvZ. Maybe Terrans just don't complain about maps enough.
Condemned Ridge needs to go. Taldarim too. Some of the others I'm not a huge fan of, but I don't really mind one way or the other.
|
On July 20 2012 01:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
Given the TvP stats that were released about Cloud Kingdom I can't believe it's still in the pool at the moment. But then, Metalopolis lasted quite a while despite having similar (though not quite as bad) stats for TvZ. Maybe Terrans just don't complain about maps enough.
Condemned Ridge needs to go. Taldarim too. Some of the others I'm not a huge fan of, but I don't really mind one way or the other.
If you read the comments, you'll find that Cloud Kingdom is actually very well balanced at the pro level. The ladder stats mean practically nothing since its bronze-GM on all servers. Check TLPD:
TvZ: 247-275 (47.3%) | ZvP: 337-296 (53.2%) | PvT: 246-221 (52.7%)
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/510_ESV_Cloud_Kingdom/games
|
Dishonorable discharge: TDA, Shakuras
Honorable discharge: Antiga (or make cross pos only)
Add: Metropolis, Atlantis, Muspelheim
|
Tal'darim needs to go. Lots of new maps out there that our good, just replace it with one of those.
|
A lot of the maps have been in too long. Each map should last a season, maybe two; but then be brought back in a couple seasons later. The map pool always feels stale after a while, and I think it would help the meta-game as a whole to introduce a wider variety of new maps. It is kind of hard to say which maps I would take out, as the ones that have been in there longest are generally the maps I hate the least for TvZ or TvP. Either way, give me new blood so laddering doesn't feel quite so old.
Take out 4 add 4? Or is that too many?
|
I am suprised people still want Cloud Kingdom, or as protoss call it "I love ramp". That map has so many choke points with ramps that is is mind blowing. And the whole center, which is high ground for protoss to rain down storms.
Tal'darim could go to. There are parts I like about the map, but it is old as dirt.
|
On July 19 2012 15:40 Timetwister22 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 15:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 19 2012 14:57 jcroisdale wrote:On July 19 2012 14:55 Enzymatic wrote:On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. Are you a Zerg player, by chance? Im a protoss and agree with this 100% these maps are just plain awful, Anitga is the most unfair pvt map in the pool. Obviously you're forgetting the 70% Protoss ladder win rate in TvP on Cloud Kingdom. Yes, but that takes into consideration of all leagues, including broze-diamond...which doesn't really matter at all. Show us the stats for master-pro and it's most likely a different story.
on TLPD map stats terran has 50.3% win on antiga, protoss has 52.7% on cloud kingdom.
|
On July 20 2012 00:50 Gosi wrote:
Anyone else missing how they used different map pools every season in like Proleague? It was refreshing and it was a really good system I think. I hope a team like ESV partner up with OGN unless their own map team put up quality maps and then they use the same system in the coming sc2 Proleagues.
Because is it one thing I really hate about the current state of sc2 it have to be the map situation. It's just way to many maps that are staying in relevant map pools waaaaaay to long because there is o many different tournaments and leagues going on all the time.
Sure, on ladder in BW there are maps that have been played for fucking forever but now when Blizzard has full control over the ladder you would think they could like have season rotation on specific map pools or something to mix it up. Not have fucking Tal Darim July 2012.
there's alot of things you'd think blizzard would do ...
|
On July 19 2012 16:48 MarcusRife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 16:31 Hypemeup wrote:
I cant help but think how bad it would be for Terrans if most of these maps were removed. 8)
But I would really like to see some of the new GSL maps in there, whirlwind and shit. Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 16:43 VPCursed wrote:
Terran needs antiga, for the love of fucking god don't get rid of it Before you say removing x map is bad for Terran or have a knee jerk reaction, doesn't it matter what the map will be replaced with? For instance if a map similar to Antiga Shipyard that was designed better replaces it then would there be a problem? There could be entirely new gameplay experiences you are missing out on. The opportunity cost of keeping bad maps is high for you. I know there are better maps out there that very few know about.
Yes, because I'd much rather see this new map replace one of the shittier ones that I hate 
|
I wouldn't mind adding Metropolis back into the pool. I really hope we don't get Whirlwind or Atlantis Spaceship, though. Those maps are just really annoying.
|
TDA and shakuras are too old.
Daybreak si too heavily imbalanced.
A map that reach 60% winrate for a race over more than 300 games should not be praised.
|
On July 20 2012 01:17 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 01:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
Given the TvP stats that were released about Cloud Kingdom I can't believe it's still in the pool at the moment. But then, Metalopolis lasted quite a while despite having similar (though not quite as bad) stats for TvZ. Maybe Terrans just don't complain about maps enough.
Condemned Ridge needs to go. Taldarim too. Some of the others I'm not a huge fan of, but I don't really mind one way or the other. If you read the comments, you'll find that Cloud Kingdom is actually very well balanced at the pro level. The ladder stats mean practically nothing since its bronze-GM on all servers. Check TLPD: TvZ: 247-275 (47.3%) | ZvP: 337-296 (53.2%) | PvT: 246-221 (52.7%) Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/510_ESV_Cloud_Kingdom/games
I read the comments, and I agreed with those pointing out that pro stats and ladder stats are different things.
|
On July 20 2012 00:50 Gosi wrote:
Anyone else missing how they used different map pools every season in like Proleague? It was refreshing and it was a really good system I think. I hope a team like ESV partner up with OGN unless their own map team put up quality maps and then they use the same system in the coming sc2 Proleagues.
Kespa had their own Korean mapmaking team in BW and they'll likely have that as well in SC2. I saw one of the Korean mapmakers make SC2 maps some months ago already. You can expect good things coming from them very soon Also smaller map pools fuck yea!
ESV however can only hope they can work together with GSL in the long run. Because as I see the future right now, it will be Kespa maps, GSL maps and Blizzard maps (I hope not) that are relevant in the future, so it's like in BW. If you don't have direct contact to the Koreans or if there isn't another TLMC, foreign mapmakers have no chance to get their maps anywhere.
(then again, foreign mapmakers don't have a chance to get their maps into the global map rotation now as well. TLMC really was the only thing that achieved that)
|
On July 20 2012 02:00 Shiori wrote:
I wouldn't mind adding Metropolis back into the pool. I really hope we don't get Whirlwind or Atlantis Spaceship, though. Those maps are just really annoying.
I would be perfectly fine if the just change antiga shipyard to be cross spawns only, which would make it much more balanced in my eyes.
|
Shakuras needs to go just because of pvz, there's no way for protoss to have a reliable 3rd choke. TDA needs to go because of rocks at third and no ramp. I'm okay with condemned. Antiga needs cross only and no golds.
|
All maps should go. I like ohana, cloud kingdom, etc but I just want new stuff to play on. Seeing the gsl maps makes me happy, but then sad at the same time.
|
If any maps are going to be replaced, I just hope atlantis spaceship and whirlwind aren't added.
|
Entombed, Ohana, Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom can stay, idgaf about the rest.
|
TDA definitely needs to go because of how macro oriented matchups are now. Rocks at the third and the scatter of expansions makes me really uneasy on this map. Flat choke at main as other people said is also a problem.
I honestly love Shakuras Plateau. Maybe it's becuase I'm a Protoss player, but I like how there's one entrance to the natural. I think You can make a mini-wall at the third that's closer to the tower and fourth can be in the center top/bottom expansions (I think desRow taught that during Maximus's boot camp).
Entombed Valley i like too, because it's not too big and it just feels like a really clean map, unless it's horizontally adjacent spawns.
Condemned Ridge I veto'ed after about two games. It is absolutely unnecessarily large, and there are too many spots for proxies, hidden bases, etc.
Antiga seems like a good three-base map, as the fourth seems really hard to take. I veto'ed this map only because my computer is super bad and my frame rate is horrendous on this map. (I average 13 in beginning and usually drop down to single digits mid-late game. maybe that's why i play toss xD)
Ohana is a really good map, no question about it.
Daybreak for the same reason as Antiga is veto'ed for me. Seems like a good map nonetheless.
Cloud Kingdom is an okay map for me, although I don't like the third base placement.
|
Put Metropolis back in and replace the entire map pool except Ohana, Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom. Can keep Shakuras if they remove those broken fucking cliffs.
|
The polls reflect my opinions pretty much identically. TDA and Shakuras have been around too long. I tend to veto these maps simply because playing on them isn't fun or refreshing really in any way. Also I feel TDA is pretty awful for TvZ/TvP so I've taken it out. Condemned I've never liked, I played a few games on it at the beginning of the season but found it to be a bad map and have veto'd it ever since. Other than that I like the current map pool. Ohana and Cloud are a lot of fun, Daybreak I don't know how I feel but for now I think it can stay.
|
Tal'Darim and Shakuras are horrible. Antiga should also probably go. Condemned Ridge doesn't seem INHERENTLY bad but many of the community maps and ESV maps are simply much better, so there's really no reason to have it in the map pool. Ohana, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, and (to a lesser extent) Entombed are all very good maps. I also wish they would add Metropolis back into the ladder pool (hopefully they were able to fix some of its problems).
|
This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
|
On July 20 2012 03:14 SniXSniPe wrote:
This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
Yup. It shows exactly why we have veto's. Granted I haven't vetoed any map since the game released and just play on them all.
|
I guess I am unique in thinking that this is a relatively good map pool, but I am just tired of certain maps, such as Shakuras and Tal'Darim. I don't find them incredibly imbalanced (with the debatable exception of Tal'Darim). But I am tired of them, and would love just a change of scenery.
|
Entombed, Antiga, Taldarim and Ohana need to go
|
I remember the time when TDA was actually the best map in the mappool. But honestly it sucks. I hope they add one big map like metropolis but not whirlwind+ metropolis. Some mid sized map are fantastic.
+ Show Spoiler +This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
I think that is right now the problem. We dont know what a good map is. Too big, too good for zerg. Many ramps protoss heaven etc. I think adding maps for one season and testing them is the perfect way to create the perfect ladder pool.
|
I feel like we need more maps like Ohana and Belshir beach Winter.
Belshir winter had some huge problems, but the middle map with the two main attacks path was really fun for the game. Some of the best TvT ever played were on this map.
These two examples are the perfect example of a fair size with just enough expansions.
I'm sick of 4 players map with 16+ expo where an army need to travel for 2min to get to the other side. It make the game blant because people can't leave their base ever.
|
Taldarim, yes. Poorly positioned natural, no ramp to main, rocks blocking third (and if they weren't, it would be too easy for p/z to double expo)
Shakuras, no. Good map. Forces zerg to actually defend their 3rd, that's nice for a change.
Entombed, no. Maybe a bit too easy for toss to make deathball, but it's not bad.
Condemned Ridge, lol plz.
Antiga, dunno. Pretty good map, but the games are very predictable/boring on it, imo.
Ohana, no. Let it stay for a while longer.
Daybreak, no. I hate it, but it's better than the other big maps and I guess there needs to be a big map in the pool.
Cloud, yes. Boring imo.
|
|
|
Cloud Kingdom, ZvP forces zerg to basically turtle to broodlords. Sentries / Immortal all-in ridiculously effective (more so than other maps). Toss can wall off ramp to the natural forcing only 1 entrance point to the third... which can also be walled off with gates and cannons. Since the third is directly below the main, mutas are impossible if blink has been researched. And every ZvP is either 3 base roach ling attack fail (ive only seen stephano consistently succeed with it), sentry immortal all in with ease or zerg turles to broods and a-moves.The only time games are relatively interesting is when mothership is out. It literally is impossible to attack whether you have an advantage or not, zergs are easily kept at a safe distance.
|
Antiga just needs to be fixed so it's cross spawns only. Shakuras and Tal'Darim needs to go. The more the map pool resembles the GSL map pool, the happier I would be.
|
TDA and Shakuras feel way too old and stale. It's always downvoted for me. Also Condemned Ridge is wayy too big (blizzard's method of balancing stuff out other than rocks, by making the maps large).
Antiga should stay for another season imo (Blizzard should fix to be cross spawn only next season). Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, and Entombed are good enough to stay.
Daybreak is a fun map.
I think Whirlwind and Belshir Beach winter would be an interesting addition.
|
On July 20 2012 07:01 Catatafish wrote:
Antiga just needs to be fixed so it's cross spawns only. Shakuras and Tal'Darim needs to go. The more the map pool resembles the GSL map pool, the happier I would be.
The GSL map pool isn't perfect though, or have you forgotten already about Calm Before the Storm. If any map was destined to NEVER be in the ladder map pool it's that monstrosity. Crossfire is another brilliant example of GSL's map pool not always being perfect.
Don't get me wrong, I love me some GSL maps, but I'm too well aware of the danger of just blindly following the map pool the GSL uses.
|
Season 9 map Pool wish list
1. Daybreak
2. Ohana
3. Entombed Valley
4. Metropolis
5. Cloud Kingdom
6. ESV Spring (looks promising)
7. ESv Muuspelheim (looks promising)
8. Atlantis Spaceship
|
Daybreak and TDA need to be burned.
|
I think a lot of the dislike for Tal'darim and Shakuras is that we're getting tired of older maps. The rocks at the third on Tal'darim doesn't help though, removing them would be wise for all the poor zergs.
Speaking of the poor zergs, I bet they're the ones against Entombed Valley too, ZvP there is troublesome.
I'm really happy community-made maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom are universally loved, ESV is doing such good work
|
On July 20 2012 03:14 SniXSniPe wrote:
This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
Pretty much everyone has agreed that Shakuras, TDA, Condemned, and Antiga are unplayable in at least 1 matchup or position. I don't see how that's biased. I also don't really see what you're getting at with the second point. What maps are most people advocating keeping that have insane winrates? Cloud Kingdom? Myth; winrates are pretty close for pro games. Ohana? Same. Daybreak? GSL staple. Entombed? Remove close spawns and it's golden.
I'm not sure where the bias is.
|
Antiga needs to be cross only, Entombed needs to be no horizontal spawn. TDA, Condemned, and Shakuras is either just bad or old and need to be replaced at this point for some new flavor on the ladder. I really wish Metropolis was back on the ladder, when it was I had some really good/fun games on it. Terran player btw.
|
On July 20 2012 03:14 SniXSniPe wrote:
This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
Not sure the point you are trying to make. The fact that 90% of the people polled here want Tal'Darim Altar out means nothing? It is biased and should not be taken seriously? As I said in the op I'm not making any arguments about balance or design. It has been there since season 1. It seems a lot of people veto it. What purpose is it serving?
|
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Tal'Darim needs to go, Entombed is just difficult for Zerg until gglords. Antiga is very imbalanced with close spawns and often means one of the two cannot secure his third expansion and 4th+ bases is hell to defend.
If they do want to keep us playing 4player maps on ladder, they might as well just make them force cross-spawn, that was primarily the reason why Metalopolis had to go, close-air spawns were absolutely retarded (Void Ray rushes, doom drops).
Condemned Ridge is an awful map, too big and too much wasted air-space.
If they would introduce forced cross spawns and neutral supply depots, I'd be a happy gamer.
|
On July 20 2012 10:41 ysnake wrote:
Tal'Darim needs to go, Entombed is just difficult for Zerg until gglords. Antiga is very imbalanced with close spawns and often means one of the two cannot secure his third expansion and 4th+ bases is hell to defend.
If they do want to keep us playing 4player maps on ladder, they might as well just make them force cross-spawn, that was primarily the reason why Metalopolis had to go, close-air spawns were absolutely retarded (Void Ray rushes, doom drops).
Condemned Ridge is an awful map, too big and too much wasted air-space.
If they would introduce forced cross spawns and neutral supply depots, I'd be a happy gamer.
That's...not the reason why Metalopolis had to go. It had to go because the third was impossible to ever hold. Even cross spawns Meta was super imbalanced.
|
I don't understand why people like Daybreak and CK. They are both imbalanced for Zerg and Toss:
TvZ: 173-204 (45.9%) PvT: 180-152 (54.2%) for CK
and
TvZ: 238-367 (39.3%) for Daybreak.
while TDA has 52%, 50.1%, 49.6%...
Im glad the community doesn't decide about mappools...
|
On July 20 2012 07:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 03:14 SniXSniPe wrote:
This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
Pretty much everyone has agreed that Shakuras, TDA, Condemned, and Antiga are unplayable in at least 1 matchup or position. I don't see how that's biased. I also don't really see what you're getting at with the second point. What maps are most people advocating keeping that have insane winrates? Cloud Kingdom? Myth; winrates are pretty close for pro games. Ohana? Same. Daybreak? GSL staple. Entombed? Remove close spawns and it's golden. I'm not sure where the bias is.
Everyone? Who cares about, "everyone", when it's the opinions of high level players that truly matter. This is why you take general public polls about balance with a grain of salt.
|
I'd like to see a bunch of new maps to be honest. Ohana is the only current one that isn't stale, bad or imbalanced.
|
On July 20 2012 10:56 Greenei wrote:
I don't understand why people like Daybreak and CK. They are both imbalanced for Zerg and Toss:
TvZ: 173-204 (45.9%) PvT: 180-152 (54.2%) for CK
and
TvZ: 238-367 (39.3%) for Daybreak.
while TDA has 52%, 50.1%, 49.6%...
Im glad the community doesn't decide about mappools...
You are looking at the wrong stats, that's just for one region. Here's the true lifetime stats for those maps:
Cloud Kingdom: TvZ: 248-275 (47.4%) | ZvP: 342-301 (53.2%) | PvT: 249-224 (52.6%)
Daybreak: TvZ: 377-505 (42.7%) | ZvP: 658-593 (52.6%) | PvT: 395-369 (51.7%)
|
How about maps that don't take 5 minutes to walk across for an early game attack. I'd like to see some maps that allow for some early aggression to change things up these days.
|
On July 20 2012 11:03 NKexquisite wrote:
How about maps that don't take 5 minutes to walk across for an early game attack. I'd like to see some maps that allow for some early aggression to change things up these days.
Steppes of War????
XDDDDD
|
On July 20 2012 11:05 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 11:03 NKexquisite wrote:
How about maps that don't take 5 minutes to walk across for an early game attack. I'd like to see some maps that allow for some early aggression to change things up these days. Steppes of War???? XDDDDD
I would love to see what pros would do on Steppes with all the patch changes and stuff
|
cloud kingdom, tal darim and condemned ridge need to go. This is coming from a terran perspective. Shakuras needs to stay though, we need at least ONE map that can have some battles before the 30 minute mark. It has gotten kinda stale playing only greedy macro games.
|
As a zerg player I think Tal'darim needs to go, as does Condemned. That map is just a piece of shit.
Antiga is a very well made map, I don't think it should go.
The other maps are good, and I also don't want a total revamp of the map pool for season 9.
|
On July 19 2012 14:59 monitor wrote:
Entombed Valley is decent and still contributes to the development of today's metagame, but it is an oddball for PvZ because 12min roach max doesn't work due to the small ramps. The most notable problems with the map imo are the terrible semi-islands, the useless "tasteless backdoor" pathways, and the imbalanced close positions.
I really miss Tasteless' secret hallway :'(
|
On July 20 2012 11:07 TitleRug wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 11:05 FakeDeath wrote:On July 20 2012 11:03 NKexquisite wrote:
How about maps that don't take 5 minutes to walk across for an early game attack. I'd like to see some maps that allow for some early aggression to change things up these days. Steppes of War???? XDDDDD I would love to see what pros would do on Steppes with all the patch changes and stuff
Personally i think Steppes would be reeeeeeaaaaaaaallllllllyyyyy imbalanced in Zerg's favor.
Xel'naga would as well.
|
CK and Daybreak are bad for Terran, Antiga/Shakuras is bad for Zerg/Protoss and Entombed is bad for Zerg, but pretty decent for Protoss and Terran.
I think it's okay to have maps favouring certain races, as long as there are similar maps that mirror them in tournaments and in the map pool.
It is by no means okay to get rid of certain maps because YOU have a hard time playing on them, that's a very bad idea.
|
On July 20 2012 11:17 InoyouS2 wrote:
CK and Daybreak are bad for Terran, Antiga/Shakuras is bad for Zerg/Protoss and Entombed is bad for Zerg, but pretty decent for Protoss and Terran.
I think it's okay to have maps favouring certain races, as long as there are similar maps that mirror them in tournaments and in the map pool.
It is by no means okay to get rid of certain maps because YOU have a hard time playing on them, that's a very bad idea.
I as a zerg player actually like Antiga and shakuras a lot better than TDA or Condemned, or Entombed for that matter.
I think Antiga+Shakuras are very good, very well made maps, very well balanced, if anything I feel like I have an advantage on Antiga and Shakuras because I can take an uber-fast third.
|
On July 20 2012 11:01 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 07:50 Shiori wrote:On July 20 2012 03:14 SniXSniPe wrote:
This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
Pretty much everyone has agreed that Shakuras, TDA, Condemned, and Antiga are unplayable in at least 1 matchup or position. I don't see how that's biased. I also don't really see what you're getting at with the second point. What maps are most people advocating keeping that have insane winrates? Cloud Kingdom? Myth; winrates are pretty close for pro games. Ohana? Same. Daybreak? GSL staple. Entombed? Remove close spawns and it's golden. I'm not sure where the bias is. Everyone? Who cares about, "everyone", when it's the opinions of high level players that truly matter. This is why you take general public polls about balance with a grain of salt.
This is for the ladder, not for the GSL. Besides, I don't know of any high level players coming out and defending random spawns Antiga, close spawns Entombed, or the 2base nightmare that is Shakuras.
|
I don't really think there's extreme issues with maps present like steps of war during beta, as previously stated to remove one map that is for example, unfavored towards Zerg, might ruin a perfectly balanced map for TvP. You cannot simply remove a map unless all races can come to the conclusion there is an overlying issue. Example. The rush distances in steps of war were too small, forcing players to play way to aggressive and overall ruining the fun of the game, for this reason the map was removed.
|
On July 20 2012 11:21 Psychonian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 11:17 InoyouS2 wrote:
CK and Daybreak are bad for Terran, Antiga/Shakuras is bad for Zerg/Protoss and Entombed is bad for Zerg, but pretty decent for Protoss and Terran.
I think it's okay to have maps favouring certain races, as long as there are similar maps that mirror them in tournaments and in the map pool.
It is by no means okay to get rid of certain maps because YOU have a hard time playing on them, that's a very bad idea. I as a zerg player actually like Antiga and shakuras a lot better than TDA or Condemned, or Entombed for that matter. I think Antiga+Shakuras are very good, very well made maps, very well balanced, if anything I feel like I have an advantage on Antiga and Shakuras because I can take an uber-fast third.
Surely you don't feel you can take an uber-fast third on shakuras? I mean it's not bad(like entomb or TDA), but rather somewhere in the middle(where antiga is obv very fast)
Personally I've always hated the "omg rocks at the 3rd on TDA" thingie. TDA is so insanely big, it would be crazy to not have rocks there(esp. since the GSL TDA had 6 minerals/1 gas didn't it? and blizzard is 100% against it), since else zerg would just be godmode on it(since rocks dont really effect TvP/PvT *that much*, for that map). Kind of similar with the qq about close spawns. Cross spawn on TDA is just horrible for TvZ(and probably even worse PvZ), it's kinda 1 bad spawn location for each race and 1.. neutral. Personally I still decently like TDA.
Antiga is probably the only map I truly dislike and want out of the pool. It just plays so stupid. I mean as a terran, sure I get an advantage there, but the map with the middle like it is, kind of prevents comebacks. The person that secures the middle pretty much always wins.
|
TDA and Shak for sure need to gtfo
shak is so hard pvt, and beyond that it's just so damn weird. One of the smaller maps in the pool, basically the whole things one big choke point...pretty uninteresting and bad.
|
I'm probably the only oen but I would love to see Xel-Naga or Steppes back. Just one map where you can do all the early game crazyness that you want and it will be good. Nearly every map is what we would've called a "macromap" in the beta.
|
All I have to say is: Tal Darim gtfo please! Map has been terrible pvz for so long. The rest I don't have any major problems with. Instead of completing replacing the maps I think they should fix a few imbalanced things like nooks for cannons and stuff, but they don't edit maps as much as they should.
|
TDA and shakuras must go Would be sweet to see Frigid Pass and Khaydaria replacing them.
|
On July 19 2012 16:05 FakeDeath wrote:
Is it true there is 70% winrate for PvT on this map?O.O
Always thought that Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak are one of the most balanced map.
Cloud Kingdom is pretty horrific for both TvP and TvZ, and Daybreak is also bad but to a lesser extent.
I'm all for keeping Shakuras and Antiga because of this. I like having at least a couple maps in the pool that are good for Terran.
|
|
|
Get rid of Tal Darim, Shakuras, and Garbage Ridge please.
There's not 1 positive thing to say about Condemned Ridge
Tal'darim is so bad PvP and it's old
Shakuras is just so old and not really suitable for play anymore.
|
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
To many Zergs on this website! Haha
Antiga and Shak still should be in the map pool!
Agree that Condemned and Tal'Darim need to go and be replaced by something better, some more GSL maps would be nice! Metrolopolis and Whirlwind could be good/interesting.
|
It is unacceptable that Entombed Valley can be Top Top or Bottom Bottom. it is so imbalanced if that occurs.
Either than that it is fine.
it is very difficult for ZvT in particular for Antiga Shipyard if they are not cross spawn.
ON a seperate note i think it is also a necessary change for the neutral supply depos to be in the ladder maps
|
TDA, condemned ridge, and shakuras are either old or bad. need to go imo. the others are fine, but they need to fix spawns for entombed and antiga ffs
|
Can someone explain to me why all the hate on Shakuras? I understand getting rid of TDA, because it is both old AND bad, and I understand getting rid of Condemend Ridge because it is just BAD, but do people really want to get rid of a great map just because it's old?
|
On July 20 2012 23:58 spbelky wrote:Can someone explain to me why all the hate on Shakuras? I understand getting rid of TDA, because it is both old AND bad, and I understand getting rid of Condemend Ridge because it is just BAD, but do people really want to get rid of a great map just because it's old?
Few problems with Shakuras, matchup by matchup:
TvP: basically Colossi all-ins and blink all-ins are extremely good on this map. On the flipside, playing macro against Terran on this map is next to impossible because of the various drop points plus having to take the distant third since midgame Terran benefits from the rush distance if you take the pocket third.
PvZ: Pocket third is required if you're Protoss, but this means that 3base Roach is basically impossible to defend. Since the Zerg player generally takes the distant third, most Protoss players 2base all-in on this map due to the time it takes to connect Creep to the third. In macro games, Zerg can easily split the map with Spine Crawlers, which makes it impossible (yes, impossible) for a Protoss to ever push after a certain point since there's basically only 1 pathway.
TvZ: Split-map scenarios = boring and sucky.
TvT: Only mech is viable past a certain point in the game because of split map.
|
On July 21 2012 00:06 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 23:58 spbelky wrote:Can someone explain to me why all the hate on Shakuras? I understand getting rid of TDA, because it is both old AND bad, and I understand getting rid of Condemend Ridge because it is just BAD, but do people really want to get rid of a great map just because it's old? Few problems with Shakuras, matchup by matchup: TvP: basically Colossi all-ins and blink all-ins are extremely good on this map. On the flipside, playing macro against Terran on this map is next to impossible because of the various drop points plus having to take the distant third since midgame Terran benefits from the rush distance if you take the pocket third. PvZ: Pocket third is required if you're Protoss, but this means that 3base Roach is basically impossible to defend. Since the Zerg player generally takes the distant third, most Protoss players 2base all-in on this map due to the time it takes to connect Creep to the third. In macro games, Zerg can easily split the map with Spine Crawlers, which makes it impossible (yes, impossible) for a Protoss to ever push after a certain point since there's basically only 1 pathway. TvZ: Split-map scenarios = boring and sucky. TvT: Only mech is viable past a certain point in the game because of split map.
Yea I guess I just liked that it is one of the few (if only) T favored vs. P maps, and I like that the TvZ split map kind of evens out the TvZ lategame. However, looking back at any recent PvZ I see your point, I just don't really think about PvZ on Shakuras ever. Well, we'll see what Blizzard decides.
|
I have received news unofficially that this topic might be discussed on the next inside the game episode. So look for that and let's hope it will help something get done.
|
CR is an excellent map. Its one of the few maps that Terran can actually win on. Protoss doesn't like it because Terran can actually get a concave and then they actually have to micro instead of just 1a'ing through chokes and ramps. I don't even need to tell you why Zerg doesn't like it. Despite the huge advantage that well controlled Mutas can bring to the table.
I was quite upset when the rock were taken away from the 3rd.
God forbid!!!! That Zerg has to make some army units before 10 mins in a game! God forbid it!
|
On July 19 2012 14:57 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. IDK, but I think it was somehow the perfect combination of abusive things all races could do to each other on that map in particular. It's not an imbalanced map(it's actually the most balanced map in the history of SCII, and possibly even in BW). Only real problem I have with TDA was PvP. PvP on any rampless map is just a BO/microfest.
ZvP you cant take a fast third im pretty sure the immortal sentry warp prism would be literally unstoppable on taht map
|
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks.
|
On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks.
free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression)
|
On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression)
I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example).
I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis.
In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good.
But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races.
Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out.
Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D
|
TDA, Antiga, Shakuras are pretty old and kind of bad. Condemned just sucks, and entombed is really annoying to play on zvp, but good for zvt, but horizontal spawns are awful so that should go as well. Five maps probably won't be taken out though...
|
On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D
funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg
Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it
|
On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it
False.
That is absolutely false.
With the great "new" 6 Queen opener. Zerg can easily take a third, and drone up for 8 mins without any serious harassment. And by 10 mins, when in the very least a small push or aggressive stance can be taken against Zerg, they can pop out enough Slings to crush or deter any engagements. Not to mention placing 1 or 2 spines will mitagate some serious damage.
|
On July 25 2012 03:44 PauseBreak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it False. That is absolutely false. With the great "new" 6 Queen opener. Zerg can easily take a third, and drone up for 8 mins without any serious harassment. And by 10 mins, when in the very least a small push or aggressive stance can be taken against Zerg, they can pop out enough Slings to crush or deter any engagements. Not to mention placing 1 or 2 spines will mitagate some serious damage.
so Zerg ahve found a very defensive opening where they sacrifice economy and tech in order to defend there third?
i dont get why your wining, they concentrate completely in defensive in order to get a fast three base, thats not blind thats jsut preparing for everything terran could jsut respond by playing even more greedy
|
On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it
Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really?
By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that...
|
I'd love to see blizzard try some more community maps, maybe add them to the existing map pool and give another veto.
|
Condemned Ridge is poopoo. does anyone like Tal'Darim? And Entombed is just terrible. Antiga is ok, im wouldnt mind it being replaced, dont care if it stays. I am undecided on Ohana. Daybreak is a great map.
|
On July 19 2012 14:52 Gfire wrote:
Tal'Darim, Shakuras and Antiga are all quite bad and very old. They should be the next ones to go, imo.
Yeah, I agree. The third on Antiga is really bad imo.
|
On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that...
then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun
|
On July 25 2012 04:17 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that... then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun
Like they don't already. Oh wait!
|
TDA condemned and entombed need to go. terrible maps.
|
Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
|
On July 25 2012 04:17 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that... then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun
I think a fast third is a very good response to nexus first or FFE in ZvP. That's not a "free third", it's an "intelligent third". Don't tell me you see much gate expands or even 1 base aggression in your ladder games or even at high level, so yeah 3 hatch in ZvP is fine where it is, nothing to say about that.
Maybe you forgot what the fast 3 hatchs are in ZvP. Originally it's not a "blind solid macro ZvP build", even if most zerg go for it without scouting nowadays. It's a response to FFE, which itself is a defensive measure to face ling roach timings while establishing a good 2 base economy.
If Protoss suddenly started to skip the forge, you wouldn't be able to hold the third with a 7:30 roach warren... that's how the metagame works. And if you scout the lack of forge, you could very well kill him with an earlier roach warren because he doesn't have a wall with cannons.
So I don't see the problem with 3 hatch openings in ZvP. It's metagamy, but at least it has a foundation, it's not like Zerg is designed to be able to take a fast third in any situation.
|
I haven't played TDA in like 2 or 3 seasons. It must go NAO D:
|
On July 25 2012 04:37 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:17 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that... then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun I think a fast third is a very good response to nexus first or FFE in ZvP. That's not a "free third", it's an "intelligent third". Don't tell me you see much gate expands or even 1 base aggression in your ladder games or even at high level, so yeah 3 hatch in ZvP is fine where it is, nothing to say about that. Maybe you forgot what the fast 3 hatchs are in ZvP. Originally it's not a "blind solid macro ZvP build", even if most zerg go for it without scouting nowadays. It's a response to FFE, which itself is a defensive measure to face ling roach timings while establishing a good 2 base economy. If Protoss suddenly started to skip the forge, you wouldn't be able to hold the third with a 7:30 roach warren... that's how the metagame works. And if you scout the lack of forge, you could very well kill him with an earlier roach warren because he doesn't have a wall with cannons. So I don't see the problem with 3 hatch openings in ZvP. It's metagamy, but at least it has a foundation, it's not like Zerg is designed to be able to take a fast third in any situation.
think you quoted the wrong guy...
|
On July 25 2012 04:38 IronManSC wrote:
I haven't played TDA in like 2 or 3 seasons. It must go NAO D:
I'm the same way. I always have it vetoed :D
|
On July 25 2012 04:39 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:37 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 04:17 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that... then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun I think a fast third is a very good response to nexus first or FFE in ZvP. That's not a "free third", it's an "intelligent third". Don't tell me you see much gate expands or even 1 base aggression in your ladder games or even at high level, so yeah 3 hatch in ZvP is fine where it is, nothing to say about that. Maybe you forgot what the fast 3 hatchs are in ZvP. Originally it's not a "blind solid macro ZvP build", even if most zerg go for it without scouting nowadays. It's a response to FFE, which itself is a defensive measure to face ling roach timings while establishing a good 2 base economy. If Protoss suddenly started to skip the forge, you wouldn't be able to hold the third with a 7:30 roach warren... that's how the metagame works. And if you scout the lack of forge, you could very well kill him with an earlier roach warren because he doesn't have a wall with cannons. So I don't see the problem with 3 hatch openings in ZvP. It's metagamy, but at least it has a foundation, it's not like Zerg is designed to be able to take a fast third in any situation. think you quoted the wrong guy...
Do you see anyone else in this conversation? Are we really playing to "dismiss the guy's comment with a random one liner" now?
Well I guess the discussion is over then.
|
Entombed should probably never have been made.
|
Condemned is by far the worst map that I have seen in a long long time. The map is awkward to play on, doesn't feel like a polished map, has balance issues (from my experience), and is just awful. It is the only map in 2 seasons that I have vetoed.
|
On July 25 2012 04:43 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:39 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 04:37 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 04:17 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that... then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun I think a fast third is a very good response to nexus first or FFE in ZvP. That's not a "free third", it's an "intelligent third". Don't tell me you see much gate expands or even 1 base aggression in your ladder games or even at high level, so yeah 3 hatch in ZvP is fine where it is, nothing to say about that. Maybe you forgot what the fast 3 hatchs are in ZvP. Originally it's not a "blind solid macro ZvP build", even if most zerg go for it without scouting nowadays. It's a response to FFE, which itself is a defensive measure to face ling roach timings while establishing a good 2 base economy. If Protoss suddenly started to skip the forge, you wouldn't be able to hold the third with a 7:30 roach warren... that's how the metagame works. And if you scout the lack of forge, you could very well kill him with an earlier roach warren because he doesn't have a wall with cannons. So I don't see the problem with 3 hatch openings in ZvP. It's metagamy, but at least it has a foundation, it's not like Zerg is designed to be able to take a fast third in any situation. think you quoted the wrong guy... Do you see anyone else in this conversation? Are we really playing to "dismiss the guy's comment with a random one liner" now? Well I guess the discussion is over then.
i thoguht you were someone else since you jsut completely changed your tune and started agreeing with me -.-
|
Austria24417 Posts
I'd say keep Tal'darim but remove the rocks from the third. Other than that it's a cool map that can produce amazing games. But please just kill off Shakuras already for the sake of protoss taking a third base.
|
|
|
I don't like this 'make more huge maps' trend. I don't want shakuras to go. Why would i want to play a tvz where i have to walk for days to harrass?
Bring back jungle basin!!!
|
On July 19 2012 14:52 Gfire wrote:
Tal'Darim, Shakuras and Antiga are all quite bad and very old. They should be the next ones to go, imo.
they all are fantastic maps, antiga a bit less than the others.
just kick condemned and don't bring metropolis back in.
|
Canada5565 Posts
We should be reaching the point where map pools are cycled every 6 months, and bad ones removed in the interim.
|
I feel that maps like Atlantis Spaceship and Whirlwind are a bit too big. Having huge maps that encourage turtling up just makes this game more boring. Aggression needs to be more viable than it is on those two maps to keep this interesting.
|
On July 25 2012 04:54 Xxio wrote:
We should be reaching the point where map pools are cycled every 6 months, and bad ones removed in the interim.
we havent gotten close tot aht point yet since there are so few good maps and not enough people churning out such a quantity of quality maps
|
I know it's been said time and time again but TDA is old, outdated and just needs to go. Even if the winrates were exactly 50% spot on in every matchup it still needs to go, because it's not fun to play. Centre is too large, Rocks at the 3rd is beyond outdated, no ramp makes it horrific for PvP, near impossible to take a 4th as P (or Z vs T), siege abuse at the natural...
Shakuras and Antiga are the other two oldish maps that need to go, various matchups once again are made harder on these maps and it's -REALLY- hard to take even a 3rd here on shakuras, or a 4th on Antiga (as P this is my most hated map), again in various matchups.
Condemned, nice idea but I'm sorry no. Doesn't work, imbalanced and horrible map.
Entombed I really like, big enough that zerg has the option of spreading bases but the small ramps for 3 base means you don't have to sit back until you're maxed as P because of this 12min max roach bullshit.
Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana are all really really nice maps, they are aesthetically pleasing, nicely designed and fun to play. Daybreak is probably my favourite, followed by Ohana. Cloud Kingdom needs some changes for TvP however, PvT is my worst matchup but on CK I do better than other maps.
|
On July 25 2012 05:17 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:54 Xxio wrote:
We should be reaching the point where map pools are cycled every 6 months, and bad ones removed in the interim. we havent gotten close tot aht point yet since there are so few good maps and not enough people churning out such a quantity of quality maps
That's actually 100% incorrect there is a slew of good maps being released they just never gain traction.
|
On July 25 2012 05:23 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 05:17 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 04:54 Xxio wrote:
We should be reaching the point where map pools are cycled every 6 months, and bad ones removed in the interim. we havent gotten close tot aht point yet since there are so few good maps and not enough people churning out such a quantity of quality maps That's actually 100% incorrect there is a slew of good maps being released they just never gain traction.
enough to make an entirely new balanced map pool every few months?
maybe i have drastically underestimed the map making teams
i know you guys are doing amazing work but not sure of the scale is all
|
On July 25 2012 05:25 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 05:23 Diamond wrote:On July 25 2012 05:17 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 04:54 Xxio wrote:
We should be reaching the point where map pools are cycled every 6 months, and bad ones removed in the interim. we havent gotten close tot aht point yet since there are so few good maps and not enough people churning out such a quantity of quality maps That's actually 100% incorrect there is a slew of good maps being released they just never gain traction. enough to make an entirely new balanced map pool every few months? maybe i have drastically underestimed the map making teams i know you guys are doing amazing work but not sure of the scale is all
Sure, not just ESV. ESV, Crux, TPW, etc. There is MORE than enough maps.
|
Here is an idea that I think everyone can agree on.
Make the make pool huge. Absolutely huge, so everyone can play on their personal favorite map withour going threw the hastle of custom games. Of course, more veto's would be nessisary.
I would say have 20 maps, and hell, give 10 veto's. It's not like you have to use them.
|
|
|
On July 25 2012 06:42 PauseBreak wrote:
I would say have 20 maps, and hell, give 10 veto's. It's not like you have to use them.
lol no. It would spread everyone out too thin. That's a horrible idea.
|
Antiga Shipyard can stay if they force cross spawns and remove the golds.
Entombed Valley is an okay map, imo. It's not great at all though. Maybe it needs forced cross spawns.
I hate TDA. ZvZ and ZvP are hell on that map.
Shakuras is pretty outdated. I really can't stand all the air space around the mains and and behind the naturals, it makes drops/harass really annoying. When I play that map I always get my opponent on the ropes and then he turns into MMA for 30 seconds and I get effed.
|
shakuras is a terrible map and should go.
im surprised tal darim is even still here. needs to go.
condemned ridge is just a really dumb map all around.
antiga is debatable but i think it should go.
cloud and daybreak are good.
EDIT: forgot entombed ^^, idk how this map is in non-zerg matchups but its fucking terrible for zvp and bad for zvt.
|
if antiga stays, it should be cross-only and no golds.
tal'darim and shakuras are both outdated and should be removed.
condemned ridge is a bad map imo and should be removed.
the rest are fine.
|
Every single blizzard map NEEDS to go, as well as TDA.
Honestly the fact that some tournaments are still using Shakuras, Antiga, Entombed etc is downright embarrassing.
Newsflash: Blizzard hasn't made a good map ever. They have been internationally known for making great games but terrible maps for over 14 years. There's a reason after like the 1st year of brood war no blizzard map was ever used ever again.
I honestly don't understand why some tournaments blindly pick up any new ladder maps blizzard puts out. Maybe since their tournament has to be sanctioned by blizzard (all tournaments over a certain prize pool do), blizzard forces their maps to be in the tournament? I'm not sure if this is the case at all though...
|
antiga should stay but they need to make it cross spawns only
|
i actually dont like TDA because of the rocks at the third and for pvp T_T the no ramp makes it a 4 gate almost every game.
|
anitga, tda, entombed, and shakuras need to go
|
I like the ESV maps. In general they are pretty innovative and fairly well balanced.
I wouldn't mind a smaller map now and then. Sub 10 minute long games aren't usually good, but neither are no rush 15 minutes into 1 engagement games either. Let there be variety.
|
I think Blizz should just stop map-making. The community has made way better maps than Blizzard ever could and I think Blizz should focus everything on HotS for lowest chance of fail.
|
I would be okay seeing every single map filtered out over the next 2-3 seasons... however the ones that should go first and/or because such a quick transition would be a drastic deviation from past behavior...
Tal'Darim Altar, Shakuras Plateau, and Antiga Shipyard should go.
ESV Khaydaria, ESV Muspelheim, GSL Whirlwind are safer choices for replacements, but I'd also like to see something riskier like DF Absolution (after a few changes) or TPW Vulture or TPW Breaking Point or Uncanny Valley.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
