Yeah, I actually agree here. It would (hopefully) change the paradigm for new maps from one of entrenched opposition to change to embracing trying new things on a regular basis. No one says you have to keep a bad new map, but why keep 10 bad old maps??

GSL does this okay but they need to be bolder. The pros can handle it, and adapting to maps needs to be a larger part of high level play.

sevia

United States954 Posts

July 19 2012 06:54 GMT

#26

TDA is ancient and should be replaced. Rocks at the third? Really?

Antiga is still imbalanced, but I don't expect Blizzard to ever enforce cross positions. So, this one goes too.

Shakuras is just a stale old map with uninteresting gameplay.

The rest are fine, in my opinion. Entombed horizontal spawns is still annoying, but not gamebreaking like TDA and Antiga.

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10366 Posts

July 19 2012 06:55 GMT

#27

HOLY SHIT TDA has been in THAT long? Wow did not even notice how fast time passed...

it's been like 2 years then that TDA has been in the map pool? Thought it came in a few seasons later when they finally decided to put in GSL maps?

Anyways TDA please go I always ban you anyways kekek. Shakuras is OK but it does still feel old (just doesn't feel like a beautiful map, though it's OK)

Jarree

Finland1004 Posts

July 19 2012 06:55 GMT

#28

Interesting results. If i remember correctly taldarim is fairly balanced map according to winrates and cloud kingdom (protoss kingdom) is not. So people want to get rid of maps because they are bad in some other way, rather than being badly balanced.

Snoodles

401 Posts

July 19 2012 06:57 GMT

#29

Everyone just wants a map where it's hard to harass and easy to turtle up to 4 bases. Yep.

digmouse

China6331 Posts

July 19 2012 07:00 GMT

#30

Whirlwind replaces TDA, Metropolis replaces Shakuras, and I prefer Sandshorn Mists.

FlukyS

Ireland485 Posts

July 19 2012 07:00 GMT

#31

Tal'Darim Altar, Shakuras Plateau, Entombed Valley and Condemned Ridge all should go because of obvious balance issues.

Ill go into more detail:
Tal'Darim its pretty obvious whats wrong the rocks at the third, the cliff outside the natural is a great place for tanks. Other than that its just a really uncomfortable map for ZvP/T because there is no obvious 4th.

Shakuras Plateau its a bit of a toss up and always has. 3rd base is kinda awkward but its an easy 4th if you can secure the 3rd. Its really terran favored if you drop tanks on the cliff. The rocks with the hidden base is a nice way for terrans who should lose a game pretty early to get a hidden base that is pretty well protected. Protoss have a lot of chokes to abuse, colossus is pretty good on the map because you can micro on top of the cliffs to save them. There just seems that there are no places where I can say im happy to engage here.

Entombed valley as a Zerg player this map makes me just say how the hell did it ever get big in pro play or stay on ladder more than a season. The positional imbalances in either close position makes me angry. Like if they spawn pointing at your third its really easy to deny it. If they are close to the natural, you are pretty much always all in if you try to attack because they are literally on top of your base in 20 secs and there is no reactionary stuff you can do at all if you see them walking out, if they surprise you in any way you are dead.

Condemned Ridge it seems like an ok map on the surface but there are a few things that annoy me. Close by ground shouldn't be spawnable. The cliffs behind the natural just are an added annoyance but its annoying not game breaking id say. The map is big which naturally I like but scouting 3 positions early just isn't really nice like your overlords are faster but wow it takes ages. I like the wide 3rd base. Id say this map is border line good or bad if the things I mentioned were changed id be happy with it to stay.

1 more thing, supply depos at the bottom of ramps. It pisses me off when every no talent fool of a protoss or terran does the ramp block and I more or less auto lose the game because Blizzard don't want to line the ladder maps up with tournament maps correctly. Until they add supply depos im never going to take ladder seriously because its a joke that retards get away with that shit.

As for replacements whirlwind seems balanced, Sanshorn Mists I thought other than the islands was good. Muspelheim looks good but its a bit tight in parts but seems like if you are careful you aren't going to get annihilated by force fields. Atlantis Spaceship is an option but its very big, I don't know if it would be entirely fun to play on it for ladder but its great for tournaments I think because it allows for a wide array of tactics and ive seen a lot of different ones in use. Metropolis if they fix the lag for the ladder version is still an option.

FakeDeath

Malaysia6060 Posts

July 19 2012 07:05 GMT

#32

On July 19 2012 15:55 Jarree wrote:
Interesting results. If i remember correctly taldarim is fairly balanced map according to winrates and cloud kingdom (protoss kingdom) is not. So people want to get rid of maps because they are bad in some other way, rather than being badly balanced.

Taldarim has been around for far too long.It needs to go.Same with Metalopolis.
Needs to go.Too stale and boring since this map has been here since forever.

Not to mention rocks are at the third don't fit the current PvZ metagame.
Flat choke means easier hellion-runbys/ forever PvP 4 gate on this map/etc.

Is it true there is 70% winrate for PvT on this map?O.O
Always thought that Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak are one of the most balanced map.

0neder

United States3733 Posts

July 19 2012 07:11 GMT

#33

I can't believe less people voted against shakuras than tal'dadrim. Well, I guess I can, but it's disheartening to see these crutch maps perpetuated.

glzElectromaster

Japan2474 Posts

July 19 2012 07:11 GMT

#34

TDA and Shakuras needs to go. TDA is the worst map in the pool right now imo. Shakuras is just getting too old, and could use a new map instead (say metropolis or even atlantis spaceship, though the latter i think has too many problems).

As much as Daybreak is getting old, its such a perfect map that I don't see it going away anytime soon. Yes, I'm a huge Daybreak fanboy. Maybe if they make the middle base one gas again? That'll be cool.

Condemned Ridge...needs to go. Kind of like Arid Plateau couple seasons ago, it's not quite good. I'd prefer muspelheim anyday over this.

Entombed and Antiga needs to be forced cross spawn, or no horizontal spawn in the case of Entombed. The imbalance and gameplay becomes sooo weird.

Ohana...as much as I hate it for being soooooo boring it can stay.

Edit: Cloud Kingdom is fine. It's quite a fun map, except there might be too many open spaces like TDA.

blade55555

United States17423 Posts

July 19 2012 07:13 GMT

#35

On July 19 2012 16:00 digmouse wrote:
Whirlwind replaces TDA, Metropolis replaces Shakuras, and I prefer Sandshorn Mists.

I would kill to have whirlwind in the map pool. That map looks ballin :D

Jarree

Finland1004 Posts

July 19 2012 07:14 GMT

#36

On July 19 2012 16:05 FakeDeath wrote:
Is it true there is 70% winrate for PvT on this map?O.O
Always thought that Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak are one of the most balanced map.

From David Kim interview:

In our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom

Patate

Canada441 Posts

July 19 2012 07:20 GMT

#37

TDA is a good and original map.. leave it be.

Talic_Zealot

688 Posts

July 19 2012 07:21 GMT

#38

I really hope that the kespa mapmaking team switches for the next seasons and starts making maps, without obiding to some of the ridiculous restrictions that Blizzard has set as 'models' for maps. The ESV guys are doing some great work they should keep it up or more. Blizzard obviously gives no priority to making maps themselves or making them good so they should just step down entirely. With the ladder there that would be difficult, but by slowly replacing them with tournament maps it is possible. There is a big problem though in that some tournaments don't seem to have any structure in place to decide which maps to add in a knowledgeable way, they run good tournaments, but miss out on the starcraft part.