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TDA, Antiga, Shakuras are pretty old and kind of bad. Condemned just sucks, and entombed is really annoying to play on zvp, but good for zvt, but horizontal spawns are awful so that should go as well. Five maps probably won't be taken out though...
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On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D
funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg
Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it
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On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it
False.
That is absolutely false.
With the great "new" 6 Queen opener. Zerg can easily take a third, and drone up for 8 mins without any serious harassment. And by 10 mins, when in the very least a small push or aggressive stance can be taken against Zerg, they can pop out enough Slings to crush or deter any engagements. Not to mention placing 1 or 2 spines will mitagate some serious damage.
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On July 25 2012 03:44 PauseBreak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it False. That is absolutely false. With the great "new" 6 Queen opener. Zerg can easily take a third, and drone up for 8 mins without any serious harassment. And by 10 mins, when in the very least a small push or aggressive stance can be taken against Zerg, they can pop out enough Slings to crush or deter any engagements. Not to mention placing 1 or 2 spines will mitagate some serious damage.
so Zerg ahve found a very defensive opening where they sacrifice economy and tech in order to defend there third?
i dont get why your wining, they concentrate completely in defensive in order to get a fast three base, thats not blind thats jsut preparing for everything terran could jsut respond by playing even more greedy
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On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it
Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really?
By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that...
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I'd love to see blizzard try some more community maps, maybe add them to the existing map pool and give another veto.
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Condemned Ridge is poopoo. does anyone like Tal'Darim? And Entombed is just terrible. Antiga is ok, im wouldnt mind it being replaced, dont care if it stays. I am undecided on Ohana. Daybreak is a great map.
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On July 19 2012 14:52 Gfire wrote:
Tal'Darim, Shakuras and Antiga are all quite bad and very old. They should be the next ones to go, imo.
Yeah, I agree. The third on Antiga is really bad imo.
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On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that...
then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun
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On July 25 2012 04:17 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that... then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun
Like they don't already. Oh wait!
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TDA condemned and entombed need to go. terrible maps.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
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On July 25 2012 04:17 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that... then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun
I think a fast third is a very good response to nexus first or FFE in ZvP. That's not a "free third", it's an "intelligent third". Don't tell me you see much gate expands or even 1 base aggression in your ladder games or even at high level, so yeah 3 hatch in ZvP is fine where it is, nothing to say about that.
Maybe you forgot what the fast 3 hatchs are in ZvP. Originally it's not a "blind solid macro ZvP build", even if most zerg go for it without scouting nowadays. It's a response to FFE, which itself is a defensive measure to face ling roach timings while establishing a good 2 base economy.
If Protoss suddenly started to skip the forge, you wouldn't be able to hold the third with a 7:30 roach warren... that's how the metagame works. And if you scout the lack of forge, you could very well kill him with an earlier roach warren because he doesn't have a wall with cannons.
So I don't see the problem with 3 hatch openings in ZvP. It's metagamy, but at least it has a foundation, it's not like Zerg is designed to be able to take a fast third in any situation.
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I haven't played TDA in like 2 or 3 seasons. It must go NAO D:
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On July 25 2012 04:37 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:17 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that... then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun I think a fast third is a very good response to nexus first or FFE in ZvP. That's not a "free third", it's an "intelligent third". Don't tell me you see much gate expands or even 1 base aggression in your ladder games or even at high level, so yeah 3 hatch in ZvP is fine where it is, nothing to say about that. Maybe you forgot what the fast 3 hatchs are in ZvP. Originally it's not a "blind solid macro ZvP build", even if most zerg go for it without scouting nowadays. It's a response to FFE, which itself is a defensive measure to face ling roach timings while establishing a good 2 base economy. If Protoss suddenly started to skip the forge, you wouldn't be able to hold the third with a 7:30 roach warren... that's how the metagame works. And if you scout the lack of forge, you could very well kill him with an earlier roach warren because he doesn't have a wall with cannons. So I don't see the problem with 3 hatch openings in ZvP. It's metagamy, but at least it has a foundation, it's not like Zerg is designed to be able to take a fast third in any situation.
think you quoted the wrong guy...
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On July 25 2012 04:38 IronManSC wrote:
I haven't played TDA in like 2 or 3 seasons. It must go NAO D:
I'm the same way. I always have it vetoed :D
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On July 25 2012 04:39 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:37 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 04:17 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that... then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun I think a fast third is a very good response to nexus first or FFE in ZvP. That's not a "free third", it's an "intelligent third". Don't tell me you see much gate expands or even 1 base aggression in your ladder games or even at high level, so yeah 3 hatch in ZvP is fine where it is, nothing to say about that. Maybe you forgot what the fast 3 hatchs are in ZvP. Originally it's not a "blind solid macro ZvP build", even if most zerg go for it without scouting nowadays. It's a response to FFE, which itself is a defensive measure to face ling roach timings while establishing a good 2 base economy. If Protoss suddenly started to skip the forge, you wouldn't be able to hold the third with a 7:30 roach warren... that's how the metagame works. And if you scout the lack of forge, you could very well kill him with an earlier roach warren because he doesn't have a wall with cannons. So I don't see the problem with 3 hatch openings in ZvP. It's metagamy, but at least it has a foundation, it's not like Zerg is designed to be able to take a fast third in any situation. think you quoted the wrong guy...
Do you see anyone else in this conversation? Are we really playing to "dismiss the guy's comment with a random one liner" now?
Well I guess the discussion is over then.
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Entombed should probably never have been made.
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Condemned is by far the worst map that I have seen in a long long time. The map is awkward to play on, doesn't feel like a polished map, has balance issues (from my experience), and is just awful. It is the only map in 2 seasons that I have vetoed.
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On July 25 2012 04:43 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:39 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 04:37 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 04:17 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 04:01 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:35 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:26 ZenithM wrote:On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression) I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example). I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis. In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good. But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races. Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out. Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D funny you say that since Terran can blindly go fast 3 cc agaisnt Zerg and never have to worry and can often get there third up before the Zerg Zerg dont take 3 base without scouting or preparing to defend it Do you watch much Starcraft at all these days? Zergs have more trouble taking their 3rd than Terran? Really? By the way, you seem to have misunderstood what I said, when I say "no free third", I don't mean fucking rocks on it, I just want a third to be a risky move if it's blindly made, or a very good possibility if you see it fit (scouting non aggro builds). I just don't see how you could disagree with that... then toss only do 2 base all-ins every game in PvZ and thats no fun I think a fast third is a very good response to nexus first or FFE in ZvP. That's not a "free third", it's an "intelligent third". Don't tell me you see much gate expands or even 1 base aggression in your ladder games or even at high level, so yeah 3 hatch in ZvP is fine where it is, nothing to say about that. Maybe you forgot what the fast 3 hatchs are in ZvP. Originally it's not a "blind solid macro ZvP build", even if most zerg go for it without scouting nowadays. It's a response to FFE, which itself is a defensive measure to face ling roach timings while establishing a good 2 base economy. If Protoss suddenly started to skip the forge, you wouldn't be able to hold the third with a 7:30 roach warren... that's how the metagame works. And if you scout the lack of forge, you could very well kill him with an earlier roach warren because he doesn't have a wall with cannons. So I don't see the problem with 3 hatch openings in ZvP. It's metagamy, but at least it has a foundation, it's not like Zerg is designed to be able to take a fast third in any situation. think you quoted the wrong guy... Do you see anyone else in this conversation? Are we really playing to "dismiss the guy's comment with a random one liner" now? Well I guess the discussion is over then.
i thoguht you were someone else since you jsut completely changed your tune and started agreeing with me -.-
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EPT
