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On July 20 2012 03:14 SniXSniPe wrote:
This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
Pretty much everyone has agreed that Shakuras, TDA, Condemned, and Antiga are unplayable in at least 1 matchup or position. I don't see how that's biased. I also don't really see what you're getting at with the second point. What maps are most people advocating keeping that have insane winrates? Cloud Kingdom? Myth; winrates are pretty close for pro games. Ohana? Same. Daybreak? GSL staple. Entombed? Remove close spawns and it's golden.
I'm not sure where the bias is.
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Antiga needs to be cross only, Entombed needs to be no horizontal spawn. TDA, Condemned, and Shakuras is either just bad or old and need to be replaced at this point for some new flavor on the ladder. I really wish Metropolis was back on the ladder, when it was I had some really good/fun games on it. Terran player btw.
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On July 20 2012 03:14 SniXSniPe wrote:
This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
Not sure the point you are trying to make. The fact that 90% of the people polled here want Tal'Darim Altar out means nothing? It is biased and should not be taken seriously? As I said in the op I'm not making any arguments about balance or design. It has been there since season 1. It seems a lot of people veto it. What purpose is it serving?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Tal'Darim needs to go, Entombed is just difficult for Zerg until gglords. Antiga is very imbalanced with close spawns and often means one of the two cannot secure his third expansion and 4th+ bases is hell to defend.
If they do want to keep us playing 4player maps on ladder, they might as well just make them force cross-spawn, that was primarily the reason why Metalopolis had to go, close-air spawns were absolutely retarded (Void Ray rushes, doom drops).
Condemned Ridge is an awful map, too big and too much wasted air-space.
If they would introduce forced cross spawns and neutral supply depots, I'd be a happy gamer.
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On July 20 2012 10:41 ysnake wrote:
Tal'Darim needs to go, Entombed is just difficult for Zerg until gglords. Antiga is very imbalanced with close spawns and often means one of the two cannot secure his third expansion and 4th+ bases is hell to defend.
If they do want to keep us playing 4player maps on ladder, they might as well just make them force cross-spawn, that was primarily the reason why Metalopolis had to go, close-air spawns were absolutely retarded (Void Ray rushes, doom drops).
Condemned Ridge is an awful map, too big and too much wasted air-space.
If they would introduce forced cross spawns and neutral supply depots, I'd be a happy gamer.
That's...not the reason why Metalopolis had to go. It had to go because the third was impossible to ever hold. Even cross spawns Meta was super imbalanced.
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I don't understand why people like Daybreak and CK. They are both imbalanced for Zerg and Toss:
TvZ: 173-204 (45.9%) PvT: 180-152 (54.2%) for CK
and
TvZ: 238-367 (39.3%) for Daybreak.
while TDA has 52%, 50.1%, 49.6%...
Im glad the community doesn't decide about mappools...
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On July 20 2012 07:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 03:14 SniXSniPe wrote:
This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
Pretty much everyone has agreed that Shakuras, TDA, Condemned, and Antiga are unplayable in at least 1 matchup or position. I don't see how that's biased. I also don't really see what you're getting at with the second point. What maps are most people advocating keeping that have insane winrates? Cloud Kingdom? Myth; winrates are pretty close for pro games. Ohana? Same. Daybreak? GSL staple. Entombed? Remove close spawns and it's golden. I'm not sure where the bias is.
Everyone? Who cares about, "everyone", when it's the opinions of high level players that truly matter. This is why you take general public polls about balance with a grain of salt.
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I'd like to see a bunch of new maps to be honest. Ohana is the only current one that isn't stale, bad or imbalanced.
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On July 20 2012 10:56 Greenei wrote:
I don't understand why people like Daybreak and CK. They are both imbalanced for Zerg and Toss:
TvZ: 173-204 (45.9%) PvT: 180-152 (54.2%) for CK
and
TvZ: 238-367 (39.3%) for Daybreak.
while TDA has 52%, 50.1%, 49.6%...
Im glad the community doesn't decide about mappools...
You are looking at the wrong stats, that's just for one region. Here's the true lifetime stats for those maps:
Cloud Kingdom: TvZ: 248-275 (47.4%) | ZvP: 342-301 (53.2%) | PvT: 249-224 (52.6%)
Daybreak: TvZ: 377-505 (42.7%) | ZvP: 658-593 (52.6%) | PvT: 395-369 (51.7%)
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How about maps that don't take 5 minutes to walk across for an early game attack. I'd like to see some maps that allow for some early aggression to change things up these days.
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On July 20 2012 11:03 NKexquisite wrote:
How about maps that don't take 5 minutes to walk across for an early game attack. I'd like to see some maps that allow for some early aggression to change things up these days.
Steppes of War????
XDDDDD
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On July 20 2012 11:05 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 11:03 NKexquisite wrote:
How about maps that don't take 5 minutes to walk across for an early game attack. I'd like to see some maps that allow for some early aggression to change things up these days. Steppes of War???? XDDDDD
I would love to see what pros would do on Steppes with all the patch changes and stuff
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cloud kingdom, tal darim and condemned ridge need to go. This is coming from a terran perspective. Shakuras needs to stay though, we need at least ONE map that can have some battles before the 30 minute mark. It has gotten kinda stale playing only greedy macro games.
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As a zerg player I think Tal'darim needs to go, as does Condemned. That map is just a piece of shit.
Antiga is a very well made map, I don't think it should go.
The other maps are good, and I also don't want a total revamp of the map pool for season 9.
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On July 19 2012 14:59 monitor wrote:
Entombed Valley is decent and still contributes to the development of today's metagame, but it is an oddball for PvZ because 12min roach max doesn't work due to the small ramps. The most notable problems with the map imo are the terrible semi-islands, the useless "tasteless backdoor" pathways, and the imbalanced close positions.
I really miss Tasteless' secret hallway :'(
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On July 20 2012 11:07 TitleRug wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 11:05 FakeDeath wrote:On July 20 2012 11:03 NKexquisite wrote:
How about maps that don't take 5 minutes to walk across for an early game attack. I'd like to see some maps that allow for some early aggression to change things up these days. Steppes of War???? XDDDDD I would love to see what pros would do on Steppes with all the patch changes and stuff
Personally i think Steppes would be reeeeeeaaaaaaaallllllllyyyyy imbalanced in Zerg's favor.
Xel'naga would as well.
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CK and Daybreak are bad for Terran, Antiga/Shakuras is bad for Zerg/Protoss and Entombed is bad for Zerg, but pretty decent for Protoss and Terran.
I think it's okay to have maps favouring certain races, as long as there are similar maps that mirror them in tournaments and in the map pool.
It is by no means okay to get rid of certain maps because YOU have a hard time playing on them, that's a very bad idea.
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On July 20 2012 11:17 InoyouS2 wrote:
CK and Daybreak are bad for Terran, Antiga/Shakuras is bad for Zerg/Protoss and Entombed is bad for Zerg, but pretty decent for Protoss and Terran.
I think it's okay to have maps favouring certain races, as long as there are similar maps that mirror them in tournaments and in the map pool.
It is by no means okay to get rid of certain maps because YOU have a hard time playing on them, that's a very bad idea.
I as a zerg player actually like Antiga and shakuras a lot better than TDA or Condemned, or Entombed for that matter.
I think Antiga+Shakuras are very good, very well made maps, very well balanced, if anything I feel like I have an advantage on Antiga and Shakuras because I can take an uber-fast third.
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On July 20 2012 11:01 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 07:50 Shiori wrote:On July 20 2012 03:14 SniXSniPe wrote:
This thread is full of bias, and precisely why they should not listen to the public community.
Race A sucks on XXX map, so it needs to be removed, but lets keep map XXX2 because Race A is great on it (while Race B has a terrible win rate on it).
Pretty much everyone has agreed that Shakuras, TDA, Condemned, and Antiga are unplayable in at least 1 matchup or position. I don't see how that's biased. I also don't really see what you're getting at with the second point. What maps are most people advocating keeping that have insane winrates? Cloud Kingdom? Myth; winrates are pretty close for pro games. Ohana? Same. Daybreak? GSL staple. Entombed? Remove close spawns and it's golden. I'm not sure where the bias is. Everyone? Who cares about, "everyone", when it's the opinions of high level players that truly matter. This is why you take general public polls about balance with a grain of salt.
This is for the ladder, not for the GSL. Besides, I don't know of any high level players coming out and defending random spawns Antiga, close spawns Entombed, or the 2base nightmare that is Shakuras.
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I don't really think there's extreme issues with maps present like steps of war during beta, as previously stated to remove one map that is for example, unfavored towards Zerg, might ruin a perfectly balanced map for TvP. You cannot simply remove a map unless all races can come to the conclusion there is an overlying issue. Example. The rush distances in steps of war were too small, forcing players to play way to aggressive and overall ruining the fun of the game, for this reason the map was removed.
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