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On July 20 2012 11:21 Psychonian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 11:17 InoyouS2 wrote:
CK and Daybreak are bad for Terran, Antiga/Shakuras is bad for Zerg/Protoss and Entombed is bad for Zerg, but pretty decent for Protoss and Terran.
I think it's okay to have maps favouring certain races, as long as there are similar maps that mirror them in tournaments and in the map pool.
It is by no means okay to get rid of certain maps because YOU have a hard time playing on them, that's a very bad idea. I as a zerg player actually like Antiga and shakuras a lot better than TDA or Condemned, or Entombed for that matter. I think Antiga+Shakuras are very good, very well made maps, very well balanced, if anything I feel like I have an advantage on Antiga and Shakuras because I can take an uber-fast third.
Surely you don't feel you can take an uber-fast third on shakuras? I mean it's not bad(like entomb or TDA), but rather somewhere in the middle(where antiga is obv very fast)
Personally I've always hated the "omg rocks at the 3rd on TDA" thingie. TDA is so insanely big, it would be crazy to not have rocks there(esp. since the GSL TDA had 6 minerals/1 gas didn't it? and blizzard is 100% against it), since else zerg would just be godmode on it(since rocks dont really effect TvP/PvT *that much*, for that map). Kind of similar with the qq about close spawns. Cross spawn on TDA is just horrible for TvZ(and probably even worse PvZ), it's kinda 1 bad spawn location for each race and 1.. neutral. Personally I still decently like TDA.
Antiga is probably the only map I truly dislike and want out of the pool. It just plays so stupid. I mean as a terran, sure I get an advantage there, but the map with the middle like it is, kind of prevents comebacks. The person that secures the middle pretty much always wins.
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TDA and Shak for sure need to gtfo
shak is so hard pvt, and beyond that it's just so damn weird. One of the smaller maps in the pool, basically the whole things one big choke point...pretty uninteresting and bad.
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I'm probably the only oen but I would love to see Xel-Naga or Steppes back. Just one map where you can do all the early game crazyness that you want and it will be good. Nearly every map is what we would've called a "macromap" in the beta.
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All I have to say is: Tal Darim gtfo please! Map has been terrible pvz for so long. The rest I don't have any major problems with. Instead of completing replacing the maps I think they should fix a few imbalanced things like nooks for cannons and stuff, but they don't edit maps as much as they should.
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TDA and shakuras must go  Would be sweet to see Frigid Pass and Khaydaria replacing them.
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On July 19 2012 16:05 FakeDeath wrote:
Is it true there is 70% winrate for PvT on this map?O.O
Always thought that Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak are one of the most balanced map.
Cloud Kingdom is pretty horrific for both TvP and TvZ, and Daybreak is also bad but to a lesser extent.
I'm all for keeping Shakuras and Antiga because of this. I like having at least a couple maps in the pool that are good for Terran.
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Get rid of Tal Darim, Shakuras, and Garbage Ridge please.
There's not 1 positive thing to say about Condemned Ridge
Tal'darim is so bad PvP and it's old
Shakuras is just so old and not really suitable for play anymore.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
To many Zergs on this website! Haha
Antiga and Shak still should be in the map pool!
Agree that Condemned and Tal'Darim need to go and be replaced by something better, some more GSL maps would be nice! Metrolopolis and Whirlwind could be good/interesting.
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It is unacceptable that Entombed Valley can be Top Top or Bottom Bottom. it is so imbalanced if that occurs.
Either than that it is fine.
it is very difficult for ZvT in particular for Antiga Shipyard if they are not cross spawn.
ON a seperate note i think it is also a necessary change for the neutral supply depos to be in the ladder maps
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TDA, condemned ridge, and shakuras are either old or bad. need to go imo. the others are fine, but they need to fix spawns for entombed and antiga ffs
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Can someone explain to me why all the hate on Shakuras? I understand getting rid of TDA, because it is both old AND bad, and I understand getting rid of Condemend Ridge because it is just BAD, but do people really want to get rid of a great map just because it's old?
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On July 20 2012 23:58 spbelky wrote:Can someone explain to me why all the hate on Shakuras? I understand getting rid of TDA, because it is both old AND bad, and I understand getting rid of Condemend Ridge because it is just BAD, but do people really want to get rid of a great map just because it's old?
Few problems with Shakuras, matchup by matchup:
TvP: basically Colossi all-ins and blink all-ins are extremely good on this map. On the flipside, playing macro against Terran on this map is next to impossible because of the various drop points plus having to take the distant third since midgame Terran benefits from the rush distance if you take the pocket third.
PvZ: Pocket third is required if you're Protoss, but this means that 3base Roach is basically impossible to defend. Since the Zerg player generally takes the distant third, most Protoss players 2base all-in on this map due to the time it takes to connect Creep to the third. In macro games, Zerg can easily split the map with Spine Crawlers, which makes it impossible (yes, impossible) for a Protoss to ever push after a certain point since there's basically only 1 pathway.
TvZ: Split-map scenarios = boring and sucky.
TvT: Only mech is viable past a certain point in the game because of split map.
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On July 21 2012 00:06 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 23:58 spbelky wrote:Can someone explain to me why all the hate on Shakuras? I understand getting rid of TDA, because it is both old AND bad, and I understand getting rid of Condemend Ridge because it is just BAD, but do people really want to get rid of a great map just because it's old? Few problems with Shakuras, matchup by matchup: TvP: basically Colossi all-ins and blink all-ins are extremely good on this map. On the flipside, playing macro against Terran on this map is next to impossible because of the various drop points plus having to take the distant third since midgame Terran benefits from the rush distance if you take the pocket third. PvZ: Pocket third is required if you're Protoss, but this means that 3base Roach is basically impossible to defend. Since the Zerg player generally takes the distant third, most Protoss players 2base all-in on this map due to the time it takes to connect Creep to the third. In macro games, Zerg can easily split the map with Spine Crawlers, which makes it impossible (yes, impossible) for a Protoss to ever push after a certain point since there's basically only 1 pathway. TvZ: Split-map scenarios = boring and sucky. TvT: Only mech is viable past a certain point in the game because of split map.
Yea I guess I just liked that it is one of the few (if only) T favored vs. P maps, and I like that the TvZ split map kind of evens out the TvZ lategame. However, looking back at any recent PvZ I see your point, I just don't really think about PvZ on Shakuras ever. Well, we'll see what Blizzard decides.
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I have received news unofficially that this topic might be discussed on the next inside the game episode. So look for that and let's hope it will help something get done.
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CR is an excellent map. Its one of the few maps that Terran can actually win on. Protoss doesn't like it because Terran can actually get a concave and then they actually have to micro instead of just 1a'ing through chokes and ramps. I don't even need to tell you why Zerg doesn't like it. Despite the huge advantage that well controlled Mutas can bring to the table.
I was quite upset when the rock were taken away from the 3rd.
God forbid!!!! That Zerg has to make some army units before 10 mins in a game! God forbid it!
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On July 19 2012 14:57 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 14:54 Ruscour wrote:
How Tal'darim ended up with 51% winrates in every matchup I will never ever know. I suppose if you balance out a large amount of terrible design decisions things kinda work out? TDA, Shakuras, Entombed and Antiga all need to take a hike imo, I dunno why every tournament jumped on the Entombed bandwagon, it seems like every time Blizzard releases maps tournaments just use the least terrible one even though there are far superior community maps. IDK, but I think it was somehow the perfect combination of abusive things all races could do to each other on that map in particular. It's not an imbalanced map(it's actually the most balanced map in the history of SCII, and possibly even in BW). Only real problem I have with TDA was PvP. PvP on any rampless map is just a BO/microfest.
ZvP you cant take a fast third im pretty sure the immortal sentry warp prism would be literally unstoppable on taht map
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Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks.
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On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks.
free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression)
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On July 25 2012 03:16 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 03:14 Toastie.NL wrote:
Less free thirds, smaller maps, more interesting mids (chokes/open), less rocks. free thirds make the game interesting (by free third i mean not insta die to any aggression)
I agree, but the map shouldn't encourage you to take the third either. No rocks, but at least the path to defend the third must be quite long (no common choke for natural and third for example).
I like rocks to block the path between natural and third, like on Entombed, Ohana and Metropolis.
In general, I think taking a quick third should be a response to what you've scouted (fast Z third against FFE or 14 CC), or at least a big risk if you do it blindly. It's the case in general, so I think it's good.
But the day Z can take his third without worrying at all about gateway expands and 2 rax is the day we will have to stop and look at it more closely because it'll become boring... I say Zerg but of course it's applicable to the other 2 races as well. It's just that Zergs are more content with having a "free third" than the other races.
Edit: Overall I think TDA and Shakuras should be taken out.
Rest I'm fine with, even if I hate Cloud fucking Kingdom :D
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EPT
